Trickler / Scale Expectations

[Herb Stoner]

There have been several threads about various tricklers with many venting dislike for AutoTrickler V3 or V4 and the SuperTrickler. Most complaints are about speed and overthrows with occasional gripes about support, interface, and a few other issues. So, with that I'm curious what those of you that are disappointed with speed and overthrow issues thought was going to work.

What were your expectations? Not looking for dietails on your dislikes (there are already plenty of posts on that) - just what do you want it to do in terms of speed and accuracy?

Throw 40 grains in 8 seconds? 10 seconds, less? 60 grains in 10 seconds?

Zero overthrows? 1 in 10? 1 in 20? 1 in 30?

What makes you dislike the V4 or ST?


I have a V4 (stock - no IP trickler) and an ST and like them - they're not perfect but it seems some of you have had serious problems.

 

[Taylorbok]

I'm super pleased with my V4, way faster than any of the "production" throwers, it'll throw a 90 grain charge under 10 seconds and almost never over throw, like it's so rare I can't even really say. Like maybe 1 or 2 out of 100

 

[6MT]

I think a trickler that can reliably throw N570 does not exist. And the speed at which these electronic wonders work is moot to me. And that’s why that “tool” you see is a necessity when throwing N570. The best the V4 has done with N570 is 5 perfect throws in a row. (Only ever done that once.)

 

[JB.IC]

I think I’m the only other one happy with the ST. I seat bullets as I throw so any over throws don’t really burden the process.

 

[Taylorbok]

I think a trickler that can reliably throw N570 does not exist. And the speed at which these electronic wonders work is moot to me. And that’s why that “tool” you see is a necessity when throwing N570. The best the V4 has done with N570 is 5 perfect throws in a row. (Only ever done that once.)

I run N570 in mine religiously and don’t have an issue. I do shim it up tho

 

[6MT]

I run N570 in mine religiously and don’t have an issue. I do shim it up tho

Yep, I shim mine too when using the pencil lead N570. That stuff is so thick and dense, that it has stuck in the trickler tube twice and clogged the flow.

Oh well, patience is a virtue.

 

[secondofangle2]

I want about 8 second throws and >95% accuracy over long stretches with whatever powder it is and I want to not have to dick around with anything hardly ever.

Things I don’t wanna dick around with:

Complexity of user interface
Shims and tips
Spillage when emptying
(Re)calibration
Positioning pieces precariously atop or beside scale
Rogue machine throwing powder w no cup on
An App overheating my phone
Static

 

[Maurygold]

My v4 was 25-30% overthrow on the slowest settings after calibrating everytime. And talking to Adam 6 times. Because I know you’ll not believe - see email with 20% overthrow using only the trickler tube only. H4350 in this and tried h1000 (some of the most common powders used)

V3 + IP is 2-5%overthrow and faster than the V4 ever considered going (maybe 7-10 seconds avg). Cannot rec enough

 

[Franko]

I started with a Chargemaster Lite and a 3rd party bushing. It was reasonably accurate and took between 30 and 40 seconds to throw 41 grains of H4350. For a while I was happy because it was so much better than using a balance beam and a spoon/manual trickler; then the pursuit of speed forced me to buy a second CM Lite.

Then the Autotricklers came out and I began to get restless because faster is better. I waited for the AT v4 because I figured all the bugs would be worked out by then. My v4 throws 41 grains of H4350 in between 10 and 15 seconds and I figure if I fiddle around some (and some kind SH member provided me with some nice tips I still haven't tried out) I might be able to get it a little faster. But overall I am very happy with the AT v4. It is more precise than my two CM Lites and slightly faster than two working in tandem.

Will I buy an IP Trickler and sell my AT v4? Probably not, but if I was starting fresh I would buy because it looks like the better mousetrap.

 

[Huskydriver]

V3 with ip I throw charges in 8 seconds with maybe 1 outta 20 throws... Its the fastest and least fussy system to date I have used. Anxiously awaiting the IP full unit

 

[ZA206]

I love my V4. I have it dialed in.

It will throw Varget or H4350 charges in about 8 seconds, sometimes faster. Maybe one overthrow out of 20.

 

[markl323]

do you know if it will have problems with N565 (I just started using it and I am considering getting a Trickler).

I think a trickler that can reliably throw N570 does not exist. And the speed at which these electronic wonders work is moot to me. And that’s why that “tool” you see is a necessity when throwing N570. The best the V4 has done with N570 is 5 perfect throws in a row. (Only ever done that once.)

 

[John Glidewell]

My V4 throws everything from Varget to N570 in 8 to 12 seconds without issue. One thing I have learned about the scale is it needs to be isolated. Clean power if possible, power strip that eliminates electronic interference and do not plug anything else on that strip. Rubber matting under a heavy marble tile to isolate any vibration. Computers are notorious for "noise" which will cause communication issues between scale and V4, so do not have any other electronics on the same strip as scale. I am also running a beta test set up in colaboration with MK Machining. Better shim system and threaded tips for small tube which reduce (almost eliminate) the column stacking in the small tube which is the primary cause for overthrows. If the V4 is set up properly it can do 10 second throws easily, as it was designed to do.

 

[Maurygold]

My V4 throws everything from Varget to N570 in 8 to 12 seconds without issue. One thing I have learned about the scale is it needs to be isolated. Clean power if possible, power strip that eliminates electronic interference and do not plug anything else on that strip. Rubber matting under a heavy marble tile to isolate any vibration. Computers are notorious for "noise" which will cause communication issues between scale and V4, so do not have any other electronics on the same strip as scale. I am also running a beta test set up in colaboration with MK Machining. Better shim system and threaded tips for small tube which reduce (almost eliminate) the column stacking in the small tube which is the primary cause for overthrows. If the V4 is set up properly it can do 10 second throws easily, as it was designed to do. View attachment 8479480View attachment 8479481

If the v4 is so good why do people need a half dozen aftermarket parts to try and get it work right?

For a premium product like that I shouldn’t have to go buy and test half a dozen products to get it to work the way I paid for it to work out of the box.

That said even after trying shims/ inserts and emailing Adam mine wouldn’t work and I got rid of it.

 

[CK1.0]

I’m running a Lyman Brass Smith manual powder measure for my bulk charge, combined with an FX120i/Ingenuity Precision trickler finishing things, and I’d guess it averages ~10 seconds per charge all in. I maybe get 1 overcharge per 50, and even then, when I say “overcharge” I mean +0.02gn over… otherwise, every single one is to the nearest kernel.

It’s so bonehead simple and drama free that I honestly don’t even know if it’s even worth bothering with an automatic dropper for the bulk charge… but I will be buying the Ingenuity Precision bulk dropper when it’s released (though, if anyone wants to sell me their AT V2/V3 in the meantime, I might take it if the price is right lol).

 

[Taylorbok]

If the v4 is so good why do people need a half dozen aftermarket parts to try and get it work right?

For a premium product like that I shouldn’t have to go buy and test half a dozen products to get it to work the way I paid for it to work out of the box.

That said even after trying shims/ inserts and emailing Adam mine wouldn’t work and I got rid of it.

Mine runs perfectly, the only extra piece I have is the shims and I only use it for N570 which is an outlier as far as kernel size. If I do get an over throw it is because kernels stuck together so it's one kernel over usually.

I am also running a beta test set up in colaboration with MK Machining. Better shim system and threaded tips for small tube which reduce (almost eliminate) the column stacking in the small tube which is the primary cause for overthrows

How are those tips working out? I've been thinking of something like this. I think the tips would need to have a more coarse thread, more like rifling in a barrel and grooves that basically match the size of a kernel to separate kernels.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I think they all have their issues. There is a reason guys who shoot ALOT, have 2, 3 or 4 machines side by side to load.

 

[John Glidewell]

How are those tips working out? I've been thinking of something like this. I think the tips would need to have a more coarse thread, more like rifling in a barrel and grooves that basically match the size of a kernel to separate kernels.

They are working very well. You are correct, they are coarse threads of various pitch for the type powder. We should be finalizing this fairly soon. I am not sure of a timeline for production. MK Machining is very thorough in testing.

 

[Maurygold]

@John Glidewell "They are working very well" - what are they doing?

you also said "My V4 throws everything from Varget to N570 in 8 to 12 seconds without issue"

 

[John Glidewell]

@John Glidewell "They are working very well" - what are they doing?

you also said "My V4 throws everything from Varget to N570 in 8 to 12 seconds without issue"

why do you care? not wasting my time explaining it.

 

[Maurygold]

why do you care? not wasting my time explaining it.

Sounds like a great product you’re developing if it’s is for a unit “without issues” that throws in 10 seconds and you can’t articulate the need.

Either the v4 has an issue and you’re developing something to fix it - or it’s without issue and this is completely unnecessary. Could you tell us which?

 

[John Glidewell]

There is nothing wrong with the V4 system if set up properly. The add ons make it faster and more consistent.

The main point of my post, being expectations, is to make sure the scale is isolated from vibration and electronic interference. A lot of the problems I see are more to do with the scale set up vs the system not working right. Electronic noise will make the scale do funny things, like walk or not refresh properly and miss powder being dropped.

If you want to keep bashing the V4, there is thread for that.

 

[Taylorbok]

Sounds like a great product you’re developing if it’s is for a unit “without issues” that throws in 10 seconds and you can’t articulate the need.

Either the v4 has an issue and you’re developing something to fix it - or it’s without issue and this is completely unnecessary. Could you tell us which?

you could go back and read. It says helps to reduce the powder clumping that results in an overthrow or slow trickle, IMO not really a necessity more of a nice to have, like lots of things in this sport/ hobby.

I loaded 50 rounds of ammo last night with N570 and had precisely 1 where the powder clumped and added one extra kernel with no extra tips or anything

I do have mine on a silicone mat also

 

[Maurygold]

There is nothing wrong with the V4 system if set up properly. The add ons make it faster and more consistent.

The main point of my post, being expectations, is to make sure the scale is isolated from vibration and electronic interference. A lot of the problems I see are more to do with the scale set up vs the system not working right. Electronic noise will make the scale do funny things, like walk or not refresh properly and miss powder being dropped.

If you want to keep bashing the V4, there is thread for that.

It's certainly worth noting that the individuals calling the system perfect are using a bunch of aftermarket things to get it to do what they paid for it to do in the first place. People should know that when evaluating this system

 

[kthomas]

I think a trickler that can reliably throw N570 does not exist. And the speed at which these electronic wonders work is moot to me. And that’s why that “tool” you see is a necessity when throwing N570. The best the V4 has done with N570 is 5 perfect throws in a row. (Only ever done that once.)

N570 is a bitch.

I'm using a AT V2.5 (V2 w/V3 board) and the IP trickler, and the thrower can't handle N570. Jams constantly. So I manually dump powder while letting the IP trickler take it to the finish line.

I'm happy with my setup, besides the issue with N570. I haven't timed it, but its plenty fast and accurate. I would guess each throw is under 10 seconds, and throws within 0.02 grains of the target charge weight (except again with N570).

 

[Taylorbok]

It's certainly worth noting that the individuals calling the system perfect are using a bunch of aftermarket things to get it to do what they paid for it to do in the first place. People should know that when evaluating this system

Based on your inability to read what was written I'd blame the user vs the system.

 

[kthomas]

It's certainly worth noting that the individuals calling the system perfect are using a bunch of aftermarket things to get it to do what they paid for it to do in the first place. People should know that when evaluating this system

I think that's become the expectations with these systems, unless you spend money on a Prometheus.

Systems like the AT ones brought fast and accurate powder weighing systems that aren't incredibly expensive to the market, but its definitely not uncommon to have to upgrade components of the system.

The only true fast and accurate system that's completely ready to go out of the box seems to be the Prometheus. But then you are probably paying ~$5k (pure guess on my part) for a machine that you don't even technically own.

 

[Maurygold]

I think that's become the expectations with these systems, unless you spend money on a Prometheus.

Systems like the AT ones brought fast and accurate powder weighing systems that aren't incredibly expensive to the market, but its definitely not uncommon to have to upgrade components of the system.

The only true fast and accurate system that's completely ready to go out of the box seems to be the Prometheus. But then you are probably paying ~$5k (pure guess on my part) for a machine that you don't even technically own.

v3 + IP is money - could not be happier with a system that actually works. it's fast, accurate and pretty hassle free - everything the v4 was not.

 

[kthomas]

v3 + IP is money - could not be happier with a system that actually works. it's fast, accurate and pretty hassle free - everything the v4 was not.

I have no experience with the V4.

I really like my V2.5 system with IP trickler. Of course, I upgraded the board with a V3 board, and the trickler is IP. So not perfect out of the box.

However the autothrow doesn't handle N570 really well at all. That may require an upgrade with the hopper/thrower system, which I'm not going to do at this time.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If the V4 was so perfect, everyone I know wouldn't have sold theirs to find a V3 with IP or a supertrickler, including me.

ST has its own issues, the IP paired with a V2/V3 seems to be the best system out there right now, with the new IP coming online sometime .

 

[JB.IC]

If the V4 was so perfect, everyone I know wouldn't have sold theirs to find a V3 with IP or a supertrickler, including me.

ST has its own issues, the IP paired with a V2/V3 seems to be the best system out there right now, with the new IP coming online sometime .

I forgot I had a AT v3 put away in my cabinet. For the IP upgrade, can I use the motor from my v3 for the motor on the IP trickler?

 

[Maurygold]

I forgot I had a AT v3 put away in my cabinet. For the IP upgrade, can I use the motor from my v3 for the motor on the IP trickler?

yes - same motor and can pull from the v3 trickler.

 

[secondofangle2]

Main problem of V4 is called “developer denial”

 

[Herb Stoner]

It's certainly worth noting that the individuals calling the system perfect are using a bunch of aftermarket things to get it to do what they paid for it to do in the first place. People should know that when evaluating this system

No - I like both the V4 and the ST and have not modded a thing outside of shims for the V4. Both took a little fiddling initially which I EXPECTED to do.

The point of this thread is what were your expectations when you bought it. What did you think it was going to do?

 

[Maurygold]

No - I like both the V4 and the ST and have not modded a thing outside of shims for the V4. Both took a little fiddling initially which I EXPECTED to do.

The point of this thread is what were your expectations when you bought it. What did you think it was going to do?

So you had to play with the settings and stand alone so many times with it not working right you eventually sought an aftermarket part. Got it.

Then you got the shims and spent more time getting it to work right. Got it.

If you paid a premium to do all that, cool. I did not. the system doesn’t out of the box work acceptably - as evidenced by everyone in this thread who doesn’t run it as it comes.

 

[Herb Stoner]

So you had to play with the settings and stand alone so many times with it not working right you eventually sought an aftermarket part. Got it.

Then you got the shims and spent more time getting it to work right. Got it.

If you paid a premium to do all that, cool. I did not. the system doesn’t out of the box work acceptably - as evidenced by everyone in this thread who doesn’t run it as it comes.

Exactly - I’m quite happy.

It was working satisfactorily before I bought the shims on a whim - they seem like a good add.

I’m still curious what YOU expected (see OP) - it would be insightful - truly.

If you just want to get angry about what other people say then piss off.

 

[Maurygold]

Exactly - I’m quite happy.

It was working satisfactorily before I bought the shims on a whim - they seem like a good add.

I’m still curious what YOU expected (see OP) - it would be insightful - truly.

If you just want to get angry about what other people say then piss off.

10% would be a high overthrow.
5-8% I could live with on a premium priced product (cm lite this bothers me less than $500+ thrower)
V4 was 25%+
V3 + IP is 1-5%

 

[03machstock]

How do these style units compare to the entry level RCBS charge masters? Can one expect a noticeable difference in quality/accuracy/sd’s of their ammo, or is it just nice to have? I throw the charges into a funnel on my Dillon and seat as I go so I’m not terribly concerned with speed so much as consistency. In my mind it will help a lot, but iv learned that isn’t a reliable source in info lol.

 

[Herb Stoner]

10% would be a high overthrow.
5-8% I could live with on a premium priced product (cm lite this bothers me less than $500+ thrower)
V4 was 25%+
V3 + IP is 1-5%

Thanks! I don’t doubt that the V3 and trickler are solid. I get around 8% with the V4 and get around 5-6% with the ST (after the machine learning or whatever get done.) I’m on the list for the forthcoming IP system so looking forward to checking that out.

 

[Herb Stoner]

How do these style units compare to the entry level RCBS charge masters? Can one expect a noticeable difference in quality/accuracy/sd’s of their ammo, or is it just nice to have? I throw the charges into a funnel on my Dillon and seat as I go so I’m not terribly concerned with speed so much as consistency. In my mind it will help a lot, but iv learned that isn’t a reliable source in info lol.

They’re faster and, as they work together with more precision scales, the consistency in weight load to load is improved. Overall a notable upgrade - especially if you load a lot. Getting them dialed in can tale a little experimenting as noted.