Rifle Scopes Trijicon Lawsuit to Holosun. What does that mean for Holosun Owners?

[rockchalk06]

I've been reading up on the lawsuit Holosun was smacked with, from Trijicon. Apparently it's over patent infringement on a few of their MRDS's, including the new 507K.

What does this mean for those who own one? If the plaintiff company wins the lawsuit, does the defendant have to buy back the optics from owners? or just get smacked with a fine and stop production? I know James is an attorney and gives his thoughts, just wondering if anyone has ever had this happen with a product they purchased and their experiences there after.

Thanks in advance SH

Here is a link that I've been following:

Trijicon Sues Holosun Over Alleged RMR & SRO Patent Infringement

Michigan optics manufacturer Trijicon, Inc. has just filed suit against California based Holosun Technologies, Inc. The docket that was filed on July, 7th 2020 indicates that Trijicon is attempting to bring legal action against Hollosun over alleged patent infringement on Trijicon's '541 Patent...

www.thefirearmblog.com

Screen shots of the article for those that don't want to click:

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

If Trijicon wins, Holosun may (probably...) have to pay damages per unit, but I don't see any kind of recall, etc happening.

 

[Asiparks]

the patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US8443541B2/en) would appear to apply to just about every MRDS that uses a series of reflective planes and an LED emitter, that can be adjusted for windage and elevation.

Do Leupold, Vortex, Burris, J-Point, Sig, Swampfox, Steiner use materially different construction or have a license to use Trijicons patent ? Or by using the same footprint, did Holosun make themselves a target ? Or is it purely because they've become immensely popular ?

I have /had several Trijicon scopes and dots, but I've gradually ditched my RMRs for 507's

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

the patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US8443541B2/en) would appear to apply to just about every MRDS that uses a series of reflective planes and an LED emitter, that can be adjusted for windage and elevation.

Do Leupold, Vortex, Burris, J-Point, Sig, Swampfox, Steiner use materially different construction or have a license to use Trijicons patent ? Or by using the same footprint, did Holosun make themselves a target ? Or is it purely because they've become immensely popular ?

I have /had several Trijicon scopes and dots, but I've gradually ditched my RMRs for 507's

All the info I saw on the lawsuit stated it was focused on the button placement on the RDS, not the internal construction.

 

[jbuck88]

Probably means you won't be allowed to sell them in the classifieds here.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Probably means you won't be allowed to sell them in the classifieds here.

How do you figure?

 

[jbuck88]

How do you figure?

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

View attachment 7404565

Counterfeit isn't the same thing as a product that infringes on a patent.

 

[Matches Malone]

I’ve been against chicom products anyways. As tempting as the price for a holosun is, I’ve shy’d away from them for pretty much the reason of them having ties with the Chinese gov.

 

[Asiparks]

All the info I saw on the lawsuit stated it was focused on the button placement on the RDS, not the internal construction.

Interesting as the RMR has a 2 buttons, one each side, whilst the 407/507 have them both on the one side.- is it the use of buttons for adjustment -period ?
Again, ACROS aside, buttons seem to be the norm.
I looked but couldn't find anything

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Interesting as the RMR has a 2 buttons, one each side, whilst the 407/507 have them both on the one side.- is it the use of buttons for adjustment -period ?
Again, ACROS aside, buttons seem to be the norm.
I looked but couldn't find anything

From what I saw on news reports after the suit was announced, it was any controls being on the side of the optic hood instead of on the base.

 

[308pirate]

What does this mean for those who own one?

It means nothing at all. It's your property to do with it as you see fit. You're under no obligation to return it or surrender it to anyone, for any reason.

Having said that, I hope Trijicon crushes Holosun's balls into dust. Fuck China.

 

[rockchalk06]

Counterfeit isn't the same thing as a product that infringes on a patent.

The Sigma from S&W comes to mind in that sense.

 

[HousePlant]

I don't know what but something more aggressive needs to be done regarding Chinese copy-cast syndrome. Trump was starting it but if Biden is elected we'll be taken advantage of again and again.

 

[gnochi]

Holosun isn’t aggressively copycatting, they’re developing and making their own product that’s quite frankly better than the RMR in most ways. It’s not chinesium.

Also, the patent in question is really weak:

• Infringement on Claim 1 (independent) boils down to whether the water portion of a glass of water is inside or outside the glass; there is no line of sight between the Holosun LED and the lens that exits the enclosed space, while there is on the RMR (and Romeo Zero and Venom and RMSc and...)
• Infringement on Claim 12 strictly requires an “actuation mechanism” on both housing posts. Holosun has both buttons on a single post.
• All other claims are dependent on one of the above claims, and therefore are not infringed if neither independent claim is infringed.

Separately, I expect Holosun will hire a competent attorney and get the entire patent invalidated In Re Japikse, which boils down to “moving a button is not novel and therefore not grounds for issuing a patent.”

This is patent trolling at its finest, and wielding the forces of law and order to prevent competition in the free market is classic corruption.

 

[Basher]

Maybe if Trijicon would get off their asses and shrink the RMR down so it fit G43/43X/48 and P365 size slides better, more people would buy them instead of a 507k... I like the RMR alot, but it’s too wide/tall for my G48, so no go until they innovate.

 

[chongoMT]

Yes, just had this exact conversation days ago. The original RMR came out roughly a decade ago, the technology is there to change dimensions to fit smaller width slides and still fit the internals. An RMR that fits perfectly on a G19 slide and an RMRc that fits perfectly on a G48,G43 slide.
Money in the bank...

 

[Asiparks]

I don't mind paying a bit more for US made. I'll pay for quality and innovation.
I bought the Trijicon SRS many years ago- Cost me about $900. Already had M2's and M3's and some Eotechs, but the SRS had solar takeover, a relatively big viewport and Trijicon on the side. It also had massive ghosting around the emitter, multiple failures to turn on after battery changes and I, like many others, got told to get fucked by Trijicon as they stopped supporting it. Had several of the gen 1 RMR, both fiber and LED. The absolute only thing they have going for them is ruggedness, but being very high drag and low speed, I'd trade that for a better everyday shooting experience.
So back to the SRS- Holosun 512 a rugged lightweight red dot, with solar back up, shake awake, clearer glass, a crisper and arguably more usable reticle for about $320 - no contest.
If Trijicon had their shit more together they'd have been producing products like this years ago. I'd rather buy American, but buying it solely because of that just encourages companies to rest on their laurels.

 

[AlpineSniper]

Interesting as the RMR has a 2 buttons, one each side, whilst the 407/507 have them both on the one side.- is it the use of buttons for adjustment -period ?
Again, ACROS aside, buttons seem to be the norm.
I looked but couldn't find anything

Yeah I would see it being more over the shape and footprint than the buttons. Holosun does use the RMR footprint

 

[rockchalk06]

Yeah I would see it being more over the shape and footprint than the buttons. Holosun does use the RMR footprint

In one of Sage Dynamics videos mentions the squared off body of one of the Holosun optics and says something like "not sure how they pulled that off without getting sued"

 

[Slateman]

What a garbage lawsuit.

I hope someone sues Trijicon for making scopes with metal tubes.

They're just angry that manufacturers are passing them in product development, because they were too busy making a 2lb VCOG and not innovating anything new.

 

[erwos]

I bought the Trijicon SRS many years ago- Cost me about $900. Already had M2's and M3's and some Eotechs, but the SRS had solar takeover, a relatively big viewport and Trijicon on the side. It also had massive ghosting around the emitter, multiple failures to turn on after battery changes and I, like many others, got told to get fucked by Trijicon as they stopped supporting it. Had several of the gen 1 RMR, both fiber and LED. The absolute only thing they have going for them is ruggedness, but being very high drag and low speed, I'd trade that for a better everyday shooting experience.

Man, I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Trijicon makes some good stuff, but they have a VERY unfortunate history of screwing people when it comes to their reflex sights. Good luck getting tritium refills on your fiber optic Reflex sight without paying absurd money. The SRO and Tri-Power sagas were also just... sad. They seem to be doing better with the RMR and MRO, but I'm not inclined to just hand them free goodwill.

 

[thehun]

I’ve given up on TRIJICON and their red dots. I’ve also had every single ACOG I’ve purchased the last 5 years with all kinds of random quality issues...seems they have lost some QA folks...

 

[Pvt.Donut]

I’ve been against chicom products anyways. As tempting as the price for a holosun is, I’ve shy’d away from them for pretty much the reason of them having ties with the Chinese gov.

I see this mentioned a lot about Chinese products. China is a communist country so literally every Chinese business has ties to the Chinese government since in a Communist country there is no personal ownership of property or business. Not a huge deal but it always seems redundant to me.

 

[Asiparks]

I see this mentioned a lot about Chinese products. China is a communist country so literally every Chinese business has ties to the Chinese government since in a Communist country there is no personal ownership of property or business. Not a huge deal but it always seems redundant to me.

yes and no.

I see this mentioned a lot about Chinese products. China is a communist country so literally every Chinese business has ties to the Chinese government

Yes.

since in a Communist country there is no personal ownership of property or business.

No.

That might be the marxist ideal, but I've encountered a lot of Chinese businessmen who seem to be doing just fine thankyou, with holdings squirrelled away around the globe, that the Chinese Govt can't touch. Just have to make sure that local party representative gets a nice flat, shopping trips to Singapore and a Benz for the wife

 

[yakmastermax]

Garbage lawsuit IMO. I long ago sold all my T2s and RMRs and switched to Holosun. Better designs, better features, NOVEL features, all at a lower pricepoint. The notion of "supporting the chinese government" is ridiculous. Stop buying Iphones, TVs, and all manner of consumer electronics if you truly hold yourself to that principle.

 

[koshkin]

In one of Sage Dynamics videos mentions the squared off body of one of the Holosun optics and says something like "not sure how they pulled that off without getting sued"

There are other red dot sights with squared bodies and buttons on the side of the window.

I'd be surprised if the lawsuit does not get thrown out, but anything can happen. I am not a lawyer, so perhaps there is something there I am not seeing.

I am all for punishing companies that infringe on others' IP, but I am really not sure this is the case in this one.

ILya

 

[rockchalk06]

There are other red dot sights with squared bodies and buttons on the side of the window.

If be surprised if the lawsuit does not get thrown out, but anything can happen. I all not a lawyer, so perhaps there is something there o all not seeing.

I am all for punishing companies that infringe on others' IP, but I am really not sure this is the case in this one.

ILya

Same here and I can't see how a square window v's a round window can be patent infringement, but it's kept others from building it. Unless its the square window that dips in the middle?

 

[just browsing]

LOL

“Hear me out, but let’s NOT try to innovate and make products that people will actually WANT to use and instead just try to sue our competition.”

 

[walldog]

Garbage lawsuit IMO. I long ago sold all my T2s and RMRs and switched to Holosun. Better designs, better features, NOVEL features, all at a lower pricepoint. The notion of "supporting the chinese government" is ridiculous. Stop buying Iphones, TVs, and all manner of consumer electronics if you truly hold yourself to that principle.

"Well, I'll never buy any of that foreign trash" That's what a friend at work said as he was climbing into his brand new "GM's finest" Buick Envision....built in CHINA.

 

[rockchalk06]

Holosuns IG page this morning.

 

[erwos]

The insider info I had was that 1) this was indeed about the buttons and 2) the issue has been settled, so I suspect these may be the new, non-patent-infringing models. Lock mode does sound like a great idea, I know the RMRs had some issues with coming off of manual brightness mode.

 

[rockchalk06]

The insider info I had was that 1) this was indeed about the buttons and 2) the issue has been settled, so I suspect these may be the new, non-patent-infringing models. Lock mode does sound like a great idea, I know the RMRs had some issues with coming off of manual brightness mode.

My 507k's have the lock out feature. That is the same reason I sold all my Type 1 RMR's for Type 2's. I kept dimming or making the dot so bight I'd kill a battery in a month from hitting the leather. It's a much appreciate feature.

 

[Beachhead192]

This.

If holosun loses they may not be able to warranty/replace your optic with a similar optic if they need warranty work. I would assume that holosun would just move the location of the buttons and tweak their design to "design around the patents."

Counterfeit isn't the same thing as a product that infringes on a patent.

 

[Twistid]

Holosuns IG page this morning.

View attachment 7408353

"Let me continue to innovate while Trij remains stale" - Holosun

Holosun makes good shit, that's a fact. Trijicon has not innovated in what, a decade? I'm glad Trij is getting worried, maybe they'll get off their fat asses.

 

[Basher]

Trijicon RMRcc

Well, it’s a step in the right direction, but:

1) It’s way more expensive than a Holosun option. Their site says $700 retail! EuroOptic and others have it listed at $499, but that’s still up there a ways.

2) The price is especially frustrating considering that one of the supposed benefits of the sight is that it doesn’t require slide milling, but instead uses an adapter plate. The cost of said plate for most (not all) models? An additional $84, and they’re not even shipping yet.

3) The adapter plate utilizes the rear sight dovetail, replacing the rear sight. I’m not a fan of that. I want my backups, especially on an EDC handgun. It also puts the sight higher than a milled slide does unless the thing is much thinner than it looks in photos.

I’m all for supporting American companies, especially over Chinese ones. But in this case, I feel the RMRcc may be too little, too late in some ways. We’ll see. If it can still be mounted directly to a milled slide, I may give one a try once they start popping up on the used market, if I haven’t gone with a 507K X2 already...

 

[W54/XM-388]

I like the way the Delta Point Pro has an optional rear sight that you can install that is adjustable.

 

[gnochi]

I like the way the Holosun 407K and 507K have integrated rear sights.

 

[scharfschutze762]

I like the way the Holosun 407K and 507K have integrated rear sights.

I would like the monthly packed plane that brings over the Holosun chinese national optics assemblers to the US to assemble the US domestic Holosun products to fall in fucking ocean including ping ping..

 

[Guthwine]

This is why engineers hate patents, it is not about protecting your own innovations/inventions. It is all about closing the doors for others by being as general in your claim as possible so that you cover the maximum amount of ground and hope that a patent lawyer signs it. Suddenly things like button placement become a novel idea that are worthy of protection.

 

[candyx]

Ping Ping will love you long time and then cut your balls off and make you eat them with some duck sauce.

 

[yakmastermax]

The baseless and frustratingly timed lawsuit makes a lot more sense now. Can't compete in the open market? You know what to do. Call the lawyers and get the power of the state involved. American Ingenuity at its finest. Hard reset when?

 

[Basher]

Just saw this and it made me chuckle a little.

 

[Claluja]

What does this mean for those who own one?

Absolutely nothing. Jury will never see this case. It will be handled in the ITC, not in district court by a jury as the latter is subject to a mandatory stay.

 

[avastcosmicarena]

I wouldn't own a single Trijicon product if Holosun made a slide-ride optic with a window as big as the SRO. The RMR is extremely overrated. I like the SRO, but I'm sure Holosun could make something competitive with it if they wanted to.

I know it's not a fair comparison due to size constraints, but the glass on the Holosun 510C rifle/PCC optic is significantly clearer than the glass on both the SRO and the Sig Sauer Romeo3 Max/XL, while being only 3/5th the price.

The only thing I really wish Holosun did was offer larger dots. I'd like to see some in the 3-8 moa range.

 

[avastcosmicarena]

The baseless and frustratingly timed lawsuit makes a lot more sense now. Can't compete in the open market? You know what to do. Call the lawyers and get the power of the state involved. American Ingenuity at its finest. Hard reset when?

Describes the entire US economy. Corporatism & oligarchy.

 

[ocabj]

I would not have bought a Holosun 507C if I hadn't broken three RMR07's in a span of a year back 2013. First one lasted about 1000 rounds / 1 month. The front glass element flew off and lost in the snow. Replacement was technically not broken by me; it was DOA, windage adjustment didn't work. The 3rd one lasted about a year and maybe 4000 rounds, but during that time I would have sporadic brightness adjustments while firing and finally, the windage broke such that the dot moved left to right under recoil.

Note that I went through Brownells for the replacements and as far as that 3rd one, I was just tired of the RMR failing so I sent it back to Brownells with a letter documenting the issues and they refunded me. Pretty much the one time I used that Brownells 100% satisfaction lifetime guarantee.

Several years later I decided to try the Holosun 507c and it has held up well (3000 rounds on a G19). I am considering giving the RMR another chance if I red dot another one of my Glocks, though.

 

[...]

Describes the entire US economy. Corporatism & oligarchy.

youre right, we should use cheap/slave chinese communist labor to undercut the rest of the world, while also building our economies on stolen IP.

i dont care who is right in this case, i just want holosun to lose because fuck china.

 

[TurboTrout]

Sounds like trijicon rested on being a big deal, some chicom company makes about the same product, but adds better features, trijicon was too lazy to innovate due to their sweet government contracts, and now they are behind the 8 ball and crying for daddy government to make it fair through their oddly allowed broad patent...

As much as I don’t like chicoms, the loss of market share is not holosuns fault, you make a overpriced product with minimal features and depend on the courts and mil contracts to save you? Innovate or just curl up and die already.