TSA notice given to me about a Civil Penalty

waveslayer

waveslayer

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Minuteman
    • Mar 6, 2012
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    #1
    Last night I went through the mail and saw a letter to my wife from the TSA... I thought that that was odd, so I opened it. First off they didn't get my wife's name right nor the dates or the incident.

    Back in June we traveled to Erie, PA to help move my brother back to CA after his residency. Well some miss communication with my wife about her bag had the LAX TSA in an uproar. I spent the whole night reloading some good ammo to shoot while we were in PA. My wife did curb side check-in while I went to the counter to check in some guns.

    She didn't check in the bag that I had strategically placed 11 pounds of ammo in. She goes through security ahead of me, while I waited for the minimum wage TSA agents to scan my bags before I could leave them with them... that took 40 minutes. Well the next thing I get was a lovely phone call from my wife about how her carry on had 11 pounds of ammo. It was good ammo, some .338 Norma Magnum, 6.5 SAUM rounds, some Grendel rounds, all the scary stuff to the TSA at LAX.

    The cops arrive! I can't say enough good things about the police, they were awesome, they even told the TSA to settle down and that it wasn't a big deal. The TSA took my wife's name, I finally arrived and they police was kind enough to escort me to the front of the line to check the bag and the nice passengers allowed me to cut through security to get some nice radiation at the body scanner. That was it.

    Well, out of no where they send me a letter stating that I owe $250 dollar civil fine, if I pay within 30 days I get a discount, $125 dollars. So my wife, was assessed a nice civil Penalty. I have 5 options, pay it, plead poverty ( I wish I was illegal at this point), submit evidence (seriously the targets? and that they can't count right...), request an informal hearing with a TSA agent (that will go over well being a white male) and or a informal conference.

    Has anyone gone through this? The money is not the issue, it's the principal, I was charged a civil penalty for them doing their jobs?...
     
    #2
    This has been the law for several years:

    http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/enforcement_sanction_guidance_policy.pdf

    Refer to page 7 as that is where individual firearm related fines start. There are several discussion about this on the net and most simply take responsibility for their own creation of the problem (not properly checking the bag with prohibited carry-on items), pay the fine and move on. On a side note, TSA agents make considerably more than minimum wage and what does being a "white male" have to do with dealing with the TSA?
     
    #3
    Tell them to eat a dick. If the names and dates are incorrect you can claim they have the wrong person. They're too fucking stupid to get it right the first time, they're no way going to go through the hassle of filing it correctly for the second time. Only problem is they could red flag you and cause a headache every time you fly but then again you could always carry the letter with the wrong info and tell them they have the wrong person. I wouldn't pay it.
     
    #4
    I had never heard of this until you posted, a quick search lead to their site and policy. (looks like someone beat me to it.)

    I guess you could be glad they didn't fine you $1500, but $250 still sucks.

    In the end I would probably just pay the fine, it will probably cost you more in time fighting it.
     
    #5
    Hairball said:
    This has been the law for several years:

    http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/enforcement_sanction_guidance_policy.pdf

    Refer to page 7 as that is where individual firearm related fines start. There are several discussion about this on the net and most simply take responsibility for their own creation of the problem (not properly checking the bag with prohibited carry-on items), pay the fine and move on. On a side note, TSA agents make considerably more than minimum wage and what does being a "white male" have to do with dealing with the TSA?
    Click to expand...

    I am glad it's not a lot, the fine that is.. Being a white male here in CA, you get treated differently!
     
    #6
    So you're mad at TSA for doing their job, and finding prohibited articles in your carry on bag? For not recognizing it as "good" ammo?
    For being accessed a fine as prescribed by law?

    I would recognize that I fucked up, and pay the fine.
     
    #7
    R Moran said:
    So you're mad at TSA for doing their job, and finding prohibited articles in your carry on bag? For not recognizing it as "good" ammo?
    For being accessed a fine as prescribed by law?

    I would recognize that I fucked up, and pay the fine.
    Click to expand...
    Not mad at what happened, mad about the fine... so when will they start to fine everyone for water bottles etc? ... best part was it took them over 3 months to send the letter with inaccurate info. Did we make a mistake, yep never said it was anyone's fault but ours.. just being fined. That is the annoying part especially when the TSA have to call the police and can not do anything about it if it is firearm related. So the cops show up and were class acts. So my point is.. they did their job, great no issues there. Issue is the fine. We will pay it, but when will they start to fine everyone for anything? It starts some where, in posted this to see if anyone had ever heard of them assessing civil penalties to anyone. Looks like no one so far, so you're welcome for the information
     
    #9
    Why don't you contact your congressman if it bothers you that much?

    Hell, I wish I could assess a financial penalty to everyone that does that kind of shit at my place of work. ...well sometimes they get fired, arrested, barred...so sorta the same.
     
    #10
    I AM NOT A LAWYER. The following is not to be construed as legal advice.

    If it were me I would send them a timely response that points out that the letter sent to you has numerous errors and that I am willing to discuss this. However, I will not make any admission to the letter sent until the errors have been corrected and a letter containing an accurate account is submitted to you. Why would I admit to something that did not happen at the time, date, place or in the order they specified? That would be a lie on my part.
    Let them go through the effort of getting it right BEFORE you do anything.

    You may still end up paying the fine. But make them work for it.

    If you do choose to fight it as is.
    Make sure you have the documentation of the time, place and date of the incident. Including a report from the police department that was called in. In a regular court errors on the charging documents may be grounds for a dismissal.

    If it were me, well I would express a heartfelt desire to truly work with them on this. (Refer to my first paragraph).

    Dave
     
    Last edited:
    #11
    waveslayer said:
    Not mad at what happened, mad about the fine... so when will they start to fine everyone for water bottles etc? ... best part was it took them over 3 months to send the letter with inaccurate info. Did we make a mistake, yep never said it was anyone's fault but ours.. just being fined. That is the annoying part especially when the TSA have to call the police and can not do anything about it if it is firearm related. So the cops show up and were class acts. So my point is.. they did their job, great no issues there. Issue is the fine. We will pay it, but when will they start to fine everyone for anything? It starts some where, in posted this to see if anyone had ever heard of them assessing civil penalties to anyone. Looks like no one so far, so you're welcome for the information
    Click to expand...

    The TSA is just big brother and our future (and current) oppressors. F them. Having a retarded mall cop have any say over anything I do is offensive to me.

    Their incompetence is clearly illustrated with how they have to call some real police officers when a firearm is present. Because they are not cops, they are mall security. They know it, the cops know it, we know it.

    I completely agree that airline security mall cops should have no authority to fine you. That's like getting fined by Wal-Mart security IMO.

    It's a bloated government bureaucracy that should be disbanded. Airlines should pay for and provide their own private security. Using my tax dollars to do it is theft and fraud. Yes airlines tickets will be costlier. Freedom is sometimes costly.
     
    #12
    Dave in Idaho said:
    I AM NOT A LAWYER. The following is not to be construed as legal advice.

    If it were me I would send them a timely response that points out that the letter sent to you has numerous errors and that I am willing to discuss this. However, I will not make any admission to the letter sent until the errors have been corrected and a letter containing an accurate account is submitted to you. Why would I admit to something that did not happen at the time, date, place or in the order they specified? That would be a lie on my part.
    Let them go through the effort of getting it right BEFORE you do anything.

    You may still end up paying the fine. But make them work for it.

    If you do choose to fight it as is.
    Make sure you have the documentation of the time, place and date of the incident. Including a report from the police department that was called in. In a regular court errors on the charging documents may be grounds for a dismissal.

    If it were me, well I would express a heartfelt desire to truly work with them on this. (Refer to my first paragraph).

    Dave
    Click to expand...
    I will try that. Funny thing is... no police report was done. The cops just said,"do you shoot competition? These are sweet what calibers are they?" I told them no just a hobby. Then they said we will take you down to make your flight. That was it.
     
    #13
    hunterb said:
    The TSA is just big brother and our future (and current) oppressors. F them. Having a retarded mall cop have any say over anything I do is offensive to me.

    Their incompetence is clearly illustrated with how they have to call some real police officers when a firearm is present. Because they are not cops, they are mall security. They know it, the cops know it, we know it.

    I completely agree that airline security mall cops should have no authority to fine you. That's like getting fined by Wal-Mart security IMO.

    It's a bloated government bureaucracy that should be disbanded. Airlines should pay for and provide their own private security. Using my tax dollars to do it is theft and fraud. Yes airlines tickets will be costlier. Freedom is sometimes costly.
    Click to expand...

    :rolleyes:
     
    #14
    I forgot to take my credit card knife out of my wallet and they freaked out. Thought I was going to jail. And this was in New York right before 9/11.. Guess I should be in the lookout for my prize in the mail
     
    #15
    If you have a burned out taillight in your truck that you knew about and tell your wife not to drive it, but she does and your wife gets pulled over for it, do you get mad at the cop for doing his job and refuse to pay the fine?

    You accidently screwed up. No big deal. I would pay the $125 and save half of your fine and be done with it. That gives you $125 more for new reloading supplies. Make your wife pay it off in "favors".
     
    #16
    Pay the fine and walk away. That $125 is less expensive than 30 minutes of a good attorney's time, much less yours with travel time etc. If you push, or fight, they will crawl up your ass like something from an alien movie. What they did to you is a joke, but given the state of affairs in the government, its like dealing with a mad teenager with too much authority. I deal with them daily, and it gives me the red ass how little they know about their jobs, but the guys up the ladder are far worse. Consider your self lucky, in the line of business we are in, the minimum fine from them is $32,500 per day per violation and the orders are to always start at the top and let the lawyers work it out. Pay and run away, the LAPD (thank God for the real police) saved you from a rectal exam.
     
    #17
    Weird. Will this be in court heard by a U.S. Magistrate? If it's a civil penalty was it served on your wife by process? How can they prove it was received W/O return receipt? What is the penalty if you refuse to pay? If it's civil they can't come arrest her.

    Now, if they would get that serious about our southern border.
     
    #19
    waveslayer,
    There will be a record that the police were called. What time they were dispatched, the officers that arrived, and the time they cleared. This is all part of record. A report does not have to have been done for this to have been recorded. Dave
     
    #20
    waveslayer said:
    Last night I went through the mail and saw a letter to my wife from the TSA... I thought that that was odd, so I opened it. First off they didn't get my wife's name right nor the dates or the incident.

    Back in June we traveled to Erie, PA to help move my brother back to CA after his residency. Well some miss communication with my wife about her bag had the LAX TSA in an uproar. I spent the whole night reloading some good ammo to shoot while we were in PA. My wife did curb side check-in while I went to the counter to check in some guns.

    She didn't check in the bag that I had strategically placed 11 pounds of ammo in. She goes through security ahead of me, while I waited for the minimum wage TSA agents to scan my bags before I could leave them with them... that took 40 minutes. Well the next thing I get was a lovely phone call from my wife about how her carry on had 11 pounds of ammo. It was good ammo, some .338 Norma Magnum, 6.5 SAUM rounds, some Grendel rounds, all the scary stuff to the TSA at LAX.

    The cops arrive! I can't say enough good things about the police, they were awesome, they even told the TSA to settle down and that it wasn't a big deal. The TSA took my wife's name, I finally arrived and they police was kind enough to escort me to the front of the line to check the bag and the nice passengers allowed me to cut through security to get some nice radiation at the body scanner. That was it.

    Well, out of no where they send me a letter stating that I owe $250 dollar civil fine, if I pay within 30 days I get a discount, $125 dollars. So my wife, was assessed a nice civil Penalty. I have 5 options, pay it, plead poverty ( I wish I was illegal at this point), submit evidence (seriously the targets? and that they can't count right...), request an informal hearing with a TSA agent (that will go over well being a white male) and or a informal conference.

    Has anyone gone through this? The money is not the issue, it's the principal, I was charged a civil penalty for them doing their jobs?...
    Click to expand...

    I would appeal it and talk to your representative.
    Pat
     
    #21
    You could write them a polite letter stating that you were not in any airport on that date. You might get lucky and they would give up. However, for $125, it would be a modest price to learn a lesson to double check where all your ammo and guns are.
     
    #22
    R Moran said:
    :rolleyes:
    Click to expand...

    Sorry I did not mean to offend all Homeland security types, especially those who are the heroes REALLY keeping us safe, like guys on SRT's protecting our infrastructure!

    I just think if you saw/interacted with some of the "agents" at LAX you would be appalled yourself. No offense intended, I try not to offend legit badass mofo's.....bad for the health :)
     
    #23
    I fly quite a bit, and can see where you are coming from. I have only travelled with firearms/ammo twice, and just read up on what to do, then asked the TSA agents when I got there for final clarification. I would look into the fine a little more, but if it were me, I would hate to do it, but I'd just pay the $125 and move on. As long as "So my wife, was assessed a nice civil Penalty" means she has to pay a fine and that's all. Lesson learned.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    #29
    As a retired airport cop I went to hundreds of ammo at the check point calls. In cases where one or two rounds are found in a bag the TSA will send you a letter saying another offense could result in a civil fine. Large amounts always got a civil fine and it could have been up to $2500. You could fight it but with 11lbs of ammo its hard to fight. If my memory is right I believe the limit before civil fine was ten rounds.
     
    #30
    hunterb said:
    Sorry I did not mean to offend all Homeland security types, especially those who are the heroes REALLY keeping us safe, like guys on SRT's protecting our infrastructure!

    I just think if you saw/interacted with some of the "agents" at LAX you would be appalled yourself. No offense intended, I try not to offend legit badass mofo's.....bad for the health :)
    Click to expand...


    To be sure....I m not a hero, legit badass mofo, or otherwise...theres guys doing a lot more everyday that deserve that title...I'm not them.
    I do not work for Homeland Security..Dept. of Energy was adamant about retaining the safeguards mission(so I've heard)..I do not work at a power plant...

    I have done, and on occasion do a similar job to TSA. So, I have some sympathy for them.
    Trust me, searching your dirty underwear is not the highlight of their day. They don't want to do it, no more then you want it done. Same with pat downs.
    Looking out over an endless sea of people(or vehicles) all that need to be searched, all in a hurry, and most pissed of at you...that's no fun either. Staring at x-ray monitors for hours, likewise sux....out loud.
    I'd be very surprised if their turnover rate wasn't thru the roof.

    They are not an LE agency...there is not the resources to train and equip enough people to be certified agents, carrying guns with the power to detain. arrest or use DPF. They simply need to be able to effectively manage people, search bags & people, spot potential threats, etc etc.(it looks like they did that). Every station probably has their own SOP for dealing with various situations, such as firearms, ammo, or oversized shampoo bottles. I doubt the individual agent has any say in that policy. Is it possible some of them are a bit over dramatic about things, absolutely, just like in every other walk of life, including posting on the internet.

    Where I work, we have several level of officers, from badge checker to SRT. They are trained and equipped accordingly. Though I would say better then the average TSA agent. Most of the people that work the barricades, are older and have worked other area's, including SRT. Some are newer, waiting for an opportunity to move on. Most guys view being sent to barricaded as punishment. Many, including myself have worked with injuries, or begged docs to RTD so they could minimize their barricade time....for the reasons I described above.

    I haven't much issue with any TSA agent.
    One time, I had to wait to have my bag searched(firearm) while they had lunch. I thought that was BS...I mean I just told the world I have a gun with me...later when I saw a supervisor, I politely asked them their policy, why I disagreed with it, and that I know of what I speak..
    Another time, I surrendered a knife(my fault entirely)..it was kinda funny...but they patted me down and we had a nice conversation about the job, and they sent me along...maybe showing them my clearance helped?...nope..

    I do wish the TSA had armed agents close by, with arrest authority. Perhaps some of the passenger buffoonery would stop. With all the events in the recent past, I think we should be calling for more security, and supporting TSA types, instead of denigrating them.
    If you have an issue, speak to a supervisor. Don't like a policy, write the appropriate people, and vote.

    As far as "real cops"...I think we can all point out where "real cops" have stepped on their crank, pretty good. And, I'm a very pro LE guy..

    (and we routinely smoke real cops in shooting competitions..:))


    Bob
     
    #31
    19Scout77 said:
    Poor little oppressed white male. How dare those mean minorities punish you for violating the law!
    Click to expand...

    it's not a law it's a regulation, since you don't know the difference I guess it applies to you.

    I suppose if more people knew what the LAW actually is these corporations wouldn't be able to con very much money with bills of attainder from the American people.

    U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 9


    No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.


    Ecclesiastes 9:18 King James Version (KJV)

    18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good
     
    Last edited:
    #33
    I don't think you should pay it. If you had to pay a fine every time you had some sort of "violation" you'd be in the poor house. I'd be willing to bet they're counting on you to pay it kinda like a lot of the traffic cameras. No real penalty for not paying. You pay taxes, you bought an airline ticket, there's your "fees".
     
    Last edited:
    #34
    Two years ago my employer and his wife went on vacation in the Caribbean. He had forgotten about a loaded 12 round 9mm magazine in his carry on bag. It made it through two major airports before being discovered at the third. TSA confiscated it and he thought that was the end of it. A month later he received a letter with a $1500 fine and a notification that him and his wife could not fly commercial air travel for a period of 24 months from the date of the incident. He asked for the hearing (8 hrs drive away). The fine was dropped to $750 but the travel restrictions stayed.

    It could be worse. I would probably pay it.
     
    #35
    tango2echo said:
    Two years ago my employer and his wife went on vacation in the Caribbean. He had forgotten about a loaded 12 round 9mm magazine in his carry on bag. It made it through two major airports before being discovered at the third. TSA confiscated it and he thought that was the end of it. A month later he received a letter with a $1500 fine and a notification that him and his wife could not fly commercial air travel for a period of 24 months from the date of the incident. He asked for the hearing (8 hrs drive away). The fine was dropped to $750 but the travel restrictions stayed.

    It could be worse. I would probably pay it.
    Click to expand...
    Ouch
     
    #38
    tango2echo said:
    Two years ago my employer and his wife went on vacation in the Caribbean. He had forgotten about a loaded 12 round 9mm magazine in his carry on bag. It made it through two major airports before being discovered at the third. TSA confiscated it and he thought that was the end of it. A month later he received a letter with a $1500 fine and a notification that him and his wife could not fly commercial air travel for a period of 24 months from the date of the incident. He asked for the hearing (8 hrs drive away). The fine was dropped to $750 but the travel restrictions stayed.

    It could be worse. I would probably pay it.
    Click to expand...

    That sounds awful! Maybe you should bite the bullet and pay. I would want them to correct the mistakes in the letter just for my peace of mind. I didn't realize TSA could fine you like that. The man has to get more and more of your money everyday.
     
    #39
    kind of like a speeding ticket. if you were speeding and in this case you were, pay the fine and be glad it wasn't worse.
    imagine getting on the no fly list for however long they want to keep you there...........
     
    #40
    haldir said:
    Ecclesiastes 9:18 King James Version (KJV)

    18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good
    Click to expand...

    What does this have to do with anything?
    Save that for the Snipers Pew forums.

    As for the OP, you're lucky you got a small fine.
    I have no love for the TSA but it's your fumble.
     
    #44
    I got caught in Milwaukee with 19 9mm Gold Dots in my laptop bag where I'd unloaded an XDM mag before a competition. I didn't get a fine, but was warned about the $1500 fine. I explained I shoot competitively and what happened, and both the TSA and deputies were as accommodating as they could be. I'm still paranoid every time I go through now though.

    The scary thing was, I'd flown a minimum of once per month the previous 6 months with the ammo without even knowing.
     
    #45
    Had the same thing happen in Alaska years ago. Everybody was very professional about the whole deal. However I did get fined. Its a lot easier to pay the fine and keep living.

    YMMV
     
    #46
    The entity imposing the fine does not need to prove the letter was received in order to go after your credit rating for not paying. Or, for going to a judge and getting a default judgement. Pay it and get on with your life. Or, request a hearing if you need to say your piece, then pay the fine and go on about your life.
     
    #47
    My time is worth something to me. I guess you would need to decide how much your time is worth, principle or not. If you have plenty of time, or the principle is really important, then make a big deal about it. I would pay the money, and move on with life. I guess I feel like I have more important things to do than continue picking at a wound from TSA.

    It comes down to cost/benefit analysis for me. This one doesn't rise very far. Make a big enough deal out of it, and you might find yourself on a do not fly list.
     
    #50
    isn't it illegal to open and read someone else's mail?

    Apparently, you sir, are a scofflaw!!!

    At least you don't have to worry about being put on a terror watch list, just your wife!
     
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