TSA notice given to me about a Civil Penalty

[waveslayer]

isn't it illegal to open and read someone else's mail?

Apparently, you sir, are a scofflaw!!!

At least you don't have to worry about being put on a terror watch list, just your wife!

Lol! Sweet. Looks like the kids and I are headed to New Zealand to hunt.. she gets to stay home. No one will get yelled at all trip. Ha Ha I could only wish. Jk

 

[wfjames22]

Well aint this a bitch...I just happened to have a loaded 17rd Glock mag in my carry on bag yesterday that I missed while checking my bag before heading to the airport. Luckily, I did take the other two out but missed the third.

 

[SMM123]

I am really surprised at the number of people willing to submit to tyranny. The TSA and their tyrannous laws do not keep you safe.

Now that I think about it, I am not really surprised at all. 499 out of every 500 people I run into think tyranny is OK. Just because some jackass wrote it down and some other jackasses passed it as law does not make it right nor lawful.

Waveslayer, I would fight it with all vigor, even if the odds were against me.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
"There is no substitute for a militant freedom. The only alternative is submission and slavery." -- Calvin Coolidge

 

[sschultz]

SMM123 thats easy for you to tell him that, its his time and money. And the rules of fly state that you can't take ammo on the plane in your carry on. With 11lbs of ammo the OP got off light. Whats he going to fight

 

[MLC]

Of all of the post 9/11 restrictions that we've endured not being able to carry ammunition onto an airplane and subsequently getting your peepee smacked is where you guys cry tyranny?

 

[SMM123]

SMM123 thats easy for you to tell him that, its his time and money. And the rules of fly state that you can't take ammo on the plane in your carry on. With 11lbs of ammo the OP got off light. Whats he going to fight

You are quite right. It is easy for me to say, and it is his time and money, not mine. And I don't give a shit what the rules state, as if that makes it right. What is he going to fight? Read the last sentence of the OP.

Of all of the post 9/11 restrictions that we've endured not being able to carry ammunition onto an airplane and subsequently getting your peepee smacked is where you guys cry tyranny?

Not me. I have been crying tyranny since the mid 80's about thousands of government intrusions. I just added another one today. And I fight it with my time and money whenever it directly affect me and mine, which has happened more than once. I have not won them all, but I have won some, which is more than I can say about most people.

Maybe if more people fought this kind of crap more often, we would not be in the situation we are currently enduring. I bet you guys go through the body scanners too. I don't. I do all that I can to clog up their system. Maybe you should too.

 

[TheGerman]

Chances are you're out the $125.

So why not make them earn it? Request the meeting and go on for 2 hours about how this is the first offense, it was an oversight, what could have actually happened with 11 rounds of ammo in our bag, what is the actual fine for and what is it actually supposed to deter, etc. Just keep going to the point of making them want to make up an excuse to leave.

Then ask about the process.

Then ask specifically about the appeals process.

You get the idea.

 

[R Moran]

I bet you guys go through the body scanners too. I don't. I do all that I can to clog up their system. Maybe you should too.

So you're the jackass that cause's all the problems.
If you don't like it don't fly...that simple, so submit to the process, like an adult, or don't go to the airport.


Also, encouraging someone to lie, when he just admitted on an open forum that he did receive the letter...that'll work.
Clogging up the system with appeals, and rants, etc....that'll go over good. You'll have to pay the full $250 at least. Maybe you should have to pay a fee for wasting everyone's time also.

 

[STLSteve86]

I'm glad I have my own plane


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jrassy]

Chances are you're out the $125.

So why not make them earn it? Request the meeting and go on for 2 hours about how this is the first offense, it was an oversight, what could have actually happened with 11 rounds of ammo in our bag, what is the actual fine for and what is it actually supposed to deter, etc. Just keep going to the point of making them want to make up an excuse to leave.

Then ask about the process.

Then ask specifically about the appeals process.

You get the idea.

That's what I'm talking about, make them earn the 125.00 by going to their informal meeting.

 

[propeine]

Last night I went through the mail and saw a letter to my wife from the TSA... I thought that that was odd, so I opened it. First off they didn't get my wife's name right nor the dates or the incident.

Back in June we traveled to Erie, PA to help move my brother back to CA after his residency. Well some miss communication with my wife about her bag had the LAX TSA in an uproar. I spent the whole night reloading some good ammo to shoot while we were in PA. My wife did curb side check-in while I went to the counter to check in some guns.

She didn't check in the bag that I had strategically placed 11 pounds of ammo in. She goes through security ahead of me, while I waited for the minimum wage TSA agents to scan my bags before I could leave them with them... that took 40 minutes. Well the next thing I get was a lovely phone call from my wife about how her carry on had 11 pounds of ammo. It was good ammo, some .338 Norma Magnum, 6.5 SAUM rounds, some Grendel rounds, all the scary stuff to the TSA at LAX.

The cops arrive! I can't say enough good things about the police, they were awesome, they even told the TSA to settle down and that it wasn't a big deal. The TSA took my wife's name, I finally arrived and they police was kind enough to escort me to the front of the line to check the bag and the nice passengers allowed me to cut through security to get some nice radiation at the body scanner. That was it.

Well, out of no where they send me a letter stating that I owe $250 dollar civil fine, if I pay within 30 days I get a discount, $125 dollars. So my wife, was assessed a nice civil Penalty. I have 5 options, pay it, plead poverty ( I wish I was illegal at this point), submit evidence (seriously the targets? and that they can't count right...), request an informal hearing with a TSA agent (that will go over well being a white male) and or a informal conference.

Has anyone gone through this? The money is not the issue, it's the principal, I was charged a civil penalty for them doing their jobs?...

On principal I saw screw them but then again I went to two court dates to fight a $15 seatbelt violation when I did in fact have my seatbelt on.

On a much different note...where the heck were you shooting such heavy artillery in Erie, Pa? The only local ranges I'm aware of have 300yd at one and occasionally 600 at a different range but the 600 is never open.

 

[waveslayer]

On principal I saw screw them but then again I went to two court dates to fight a $15 seatbelt violation when I did in fact have my seatbelt on.

On a much different note...where the heck were you shooting such heavy artillery in Erie, Pa? The only local ranges I'm aware of have 300yd at one and occasionally 600 at a different range but the 600 is never open.

Amish country at 600. It was awesome. Not sure where it was I was the back seat driver

 

[propeine]

Amish country at 600. It was awesome. Not sure where it was I was the back seat driver

If it was less than an hour maybe spartansburg or conneautville. No biggy was just curious. We have too many rolling hills here to have a lot of long ranges.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Well, I feel blessed. I purchased 20 rounds of 9mm at a Cabelas and put it in my 5.11 soft bag that I use as a briefcase. Well I forgot about it. 3 months later I discovered that I had it in my bag. Well I was in San Diego at the time when I found it. At this time I have been through multiple airports and TSA security's points through out the country. I ended up giving the rounds to a customer instead of chancing going through security. I figured I would have been caught since I now realized they were in my bag.

 

[Tough Guy]

I feel reel bad for those idiots here who support government scams. That's just what the OP went through. Another government scam. The ICE man does this too, they come in supposedly to look for illegals, check the paperwork, and if you have no illegals working for you they will fine you for improper paperwork. It's easy money for the gov. Now let's all get out there and vote for the next bunch of scam artist.

 

[SMM123]

So you're the jackass that cause's all the problems.
If you don't like it don't fly...that simple, so submit to the process, like an adult, or don't go to the airport.


Also, encouraging someone to lie, when he just admitted on an open forum that he did receive the letter...that'll work.
Clogging up the system with appeals, and rants, etc....that'll go over good. You'll have to pay the full $250 at least. Maybe you should have to pay a fee for wasting everyone's time also.

One, I only fly when there is simply no other choice...like a relative on their death bed. I still will not submit to a fucking scanner that does not need to be there in the first place. How in the hell did we survive twenty years ago without the scanners, only those of you who use them must know.

As for encouraging someone to lie, that is something you pulled out of your ass without looking.

And for the record, I like wasting people's time. Especially the time of those who think tyranny is great. It is the people like yourself that I especially enjoy pissing off.

 

[Matno]

The TSA is just big brother and our future (and current) oppressors. F them. Having a retarded mall cop have any say over anything I do is offensive to me.

Please don't be so harsh. Why would you say something so rude about retarded mall cops? I would WAY rather be told what to do by a mall cop than the TSA. The TSA is worse than scum. (Sorry if I offended any scum by my comparison). They are also totally unnecessary and ineffective at what they supposedly do. I'd be surprised if a high school diploma is even required to work for them.
And just in case anyone on this forum works for the TSA, shame on you for selling out your fellow Americans just to earn some money...

 

[sschultz]

As far as the scanners the bad guys have evolved and the good guys have to evolve also. I went on the plane that the underwear bomber almost blew up. The people on that flight were very lucky to be alive.

 

[PopSmoke]

So you're mad at TSA for doing their job, and finding prohibited articles in your carry on bag? For not recognizing it as "good" ammo?
For being accessed a fine as prescribed by law?

I would recognize that I fucked up, and pay the fine.

Whoa, NOT prohibited items. Merely not allowed in carry on, they can lovingly be checked as can a 50 caliber Barrett.

Remember, these rules ONLY apply to the law abiding. Criminals won't follow the rules, including the ones wearing TSA uniforms. The problem with the TSA is they think they are cops. Sadly, an illegal execjtive order was signed giving them police power, yet they hold ZERO certification from a law enforcement academy in ANY state. They are NOT cops and that executive order changed nothing other tha the attitudes of those asshats.

 

[sschultz]

Matno and SMM123 what would be your great idea on how to provide security for airlines and passengers. If TSA wasn't doing it someone else would.

 

[sschultz]

Popsmoke not sure where you got your information the rank anf file TSA does not have police powers.

 

[LRI]

To be sure....I m not a hero, legit badass mofo, or otherwise...theres guys doing a lot more everyday that deserve that title...I'm not them.
I do not work for Homeland Security..Dept. of Energy was adamant about retaining the safeguards mission(so I've heard)..I do not work at a power plant...

I have done, and on occasion do a similar job to TSA. So, I have some sympathy for them.
Trust me, searching your dirty underwear is not the highlight of their day. They don't want to do it, no more then you want it done. Same with pat downs.
Looking out over an endless sea of people(or vehicles) all that need to be searched, all in a hurry, and most pissed of at you...that's no fun either. Staring at x-ray monitors for hours, likewise sux....out loud.
I'd be very surprised if their turnover rate wasn't thru the roof.

They are not an LE agency...there is not the resources to train and equip enough people to be certified agents, carrying guns with the power to detain. arrest or use DPF. They simply need to be able to effectively manage people, search bags & people, spot potential threats, etc etc.(it looks like they did that). Every station probably has their own SOP for dealing with various situations, such as firearms, ammo, or oversized shampoo bottles. I doubt the individual agent has any say in that policy. Is it possible some of them are a bit over dramatic about things, absolutely, just like in every other walk of life, including posting on the internet.

Where I work, we have several level of officers, from badge checker to SRT. They are trained and equipped accordingly. Though I would say better then the average TSA agent. Most of the people that work the barricades, are older and have worked other area's, including SRT. Some are newer, waiting for an opportunity to move on. Most guys view being sent to barricaded as punishment. Many, including myself have worked with injuries, or begged docs to RTD so they could minimize their barricade time....for the reasons I described above.

I haven't much issue with any TSA agent.
One time, I had to wait to have my bag searched(firearm) while they had lunch. I thought that was BS...I mean I just told the world I have a gun with me...later when I saw a supervisor, I politely asked them their policy, why I disagreed with it, and that I know of what I speak..
Another time, I surrendered a knife(my fault entirely)..it was kinda funny...but they patted me down and we had a nice conversation about the job, and they sent me along...maybe showing them my clearance helped?...nope..

I do wish the TSA had armed agents close by, with arrest authority. Perhaps some of the passenger buffoonery would stop. With all the events in the recent past, I think we should be calling for more security, and supporting TSA types, instead of denigrating them.
If you have an issue, speak to a supervisor. Don't like a policy, write the appropriate people, and vote.

As far as "real cops"...I think we can all point out where "real cops" have stepped on their crank, pretty good. And, I'm a very pro LE guy..

(and we routinely smoke real cops in shooting competitions..)


Bob

You make a solid, well articulated statement.

One that I'm going to counter with (hopefully) an equally well versed response.


Public service. The core common denominator for Federal, State, and local Law Enforcement, Fire Departments, etc.

We see it every day, "To serve and protect."

What stops an officer of the law from parking right outside the front door of a bar during closing and encouraging Bob -who's had to many- from making a life changing decision?

"Bob, your smoked, call a cab buddy so I don't have to lock you up and spend half my shift writing a report. Let me catch some real assholes tonight instead."

Now, IF/when Bob goes full retard and gets in the car anyway, bust his ass. He earned it.

BUT, just think about the resources SAVED by this simple act. Does the officer have to do it? No, he/she can continue to do business as usual and fry his ass when he wiggles the slightest down the street.

My point again, "To serve and protect"

AND

The visual deterrent of actually being VISUAL and maybe, just maybe, making someone think twice and call a cab.

Hiding in the dark alley to bust someones ass isn't a visual deterrent. It's just not.

The city counsel of just about any municipality will tell you that LE/courts are not cash cows. They are upside down in revenue generation. Operational expenses far exceed the monies generated from fines.

So again, lets save a buck by parking our good officer in a high visibility area and have him actually develop a dialog with the community. -Granted, chatting with drunks is generally a loser, but with time, maybe its gets somewhere.


Now, take this Eutopian bullshit I'm spilling and apply it to TSA. Instead of these guys burning someone every chance they get, why do WE as a SOCIETY always feel compelled to FINE, LEVY, Penalize our own citizens? It's bullshit and goes against the fabric of this country.

We talk about being divided, well, here's a great place to initiate some change.

We have the 5th largest population world wide. 25% of our citizens are or have been locked up. There's a problem there gents. Where is this land of the free anymore. -And if your answer is "well, it's better than other places" SHAME ON YOU."

America is not about being "well, it's good enough." Never has been and I think personally most of our problems come from that mentality that now runs through our communities. -like a cancer...

Just some food for thought.


C.

 

[SMM123]

Matno and SMM123 what would be your great idea on how to provide security for airlines and passengers. If TSA wasn't doing it someone else would.

Do you believe in your deepest soul, that if we were still allowed to carry firearms on aircraft (and the general public actually believed and followed the fact that self defense is ultimately only in the hands on one's self) that 9/11 would have actually occurred?

I don't actually give a damn about your answer since you asked a stupid question. Had I been on any of the 9/11 flights, I would have beat the living shit out of all of the highjackers with a tightly rolled up "Sky" magazine...

fucking box cutters to hijack a plane...there are very few real men in America an more

 

[Matno]

Matno and SMM123 what would be your great idea on how to provide security for airlines and passengers. If TSA wasn't doing it someone else would.

To start with, it should not have anything to do with the government. This should be up to the airlines. The government has proven itself to be the least competent entity in the world, so why should this be any different? My father is a retired airline captain who was one of the very first to become an FFDO. One of his buddies from his navy flight squadron was captain of one of the 9-11 flights that crashed. He has always said that the tighter security is at the airport, the easier it is to get through, because they rely on unintelligent people to make judgment calls. Let the pilots be armed (most are ex military anyway), screen the luggage (but with people capable of using real judgment, not mindless drones who punish passengers for innocent mistakes, and stop being so paranoid.

Secondly, this "no profiling" b.s. has got to stop. Take a lesson from the most secure airline in the world (El Al) and profile the Crap out of people. When I see my wife with young children get selected at random for a full search while some guy in the next lane walks right through without being asked to remove his turban (yes, that actually happened twice at JFK), there is something seriously wrong.

Third, no security in the world is going to stop every determined crazy person. I think we need to stop focusing so much on security and worry about more important things like our personal freedom. Every single time I've been searched has been an unreasonable search (one was an unreasonable search AND seizure - when they confiscated my nail clippers because of a 1" dull blade and made me miss my flight). I believe we have a legal document that prohibits those.I have no idea why a single person who considers themself an American would think this is a good idea. I would rather take my chances with NO security than the system we have now.

 

[BapZander]

I agree with LRI - specifically to the OP's issue - 15 seconds and done:

TSA "agent"
"I'm sorry miss, you can't bring this on the plane. You have to go back to the check in desk and have them check this for you. Thanks, have a nice day."

Wife
"Oh crap I didn't realize that was in there. Sure, I'll be back in a few minutes, thanks."

Done.

Just saved 5k plus in man hours dealing with a simple mistake. How many TSA agents, LEO's and bureaucrats does it take to solve a simple problem.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

Might be OT, but I'm going on my honeymoon in Florida in May, and I want to bring back some stuff to Europe when I go back. I'd like to bring back a bipod, a stock and maybe other items like it.
As far as I understand the law texts, this should be legal in checked luggage?
I've written and asked TSA about it, but I just got back some standard answers, which don't help.
Also some manufacturers state that their products have export restrictoons, which is somewhat confusing. Anyone have any expertise in this?

 

[haldir]

To start with, it should not have anything to do with the government. This should be up to the airlines. The government has proven itself to be the least competent entity in the world, so why should this be any different? My father is a retired airline captain who was one of the very first to become an FFDO. One of his buddies from his navy flight squadron was captain of one of the 9-11 flights that crashed. He has always said that the tighter security is at the airport, the easier it is to get through, because they rely on unintelligent people to make judgment calls. Let the pilots be armed (most are ex military anyway), screen the luggage (but with people capable of using real judgment, not mindless drones who punish passengers for innocent mistakes, and stop being so paranoid.

Secondly, this "no profiling" b.s. has got to stop. Take a lesson from the most secure airline in the world (El Al) and profile the Crap out of people. When I see my wife with young children get selected at random for a full search while some guy in the next lane walks right through without being asked to remove his turban (yes, that actually happened twice at JFK), there is something seriously wrong.

Third, no security in the world is going to stop every determined crazy person. I think we need to stop focusing so much on security and worry about more important things like our personal freedom. Every single time I've been searched has been an unreasonable search (one was an unreasonable search AND seizure - when they confiscated my nail clippers because of a 1" dull blade and made me miss my flight). I believe we have a legal document that prohibits those.I have no idea why a single person who considers themself an American would think this is a good idea. I would rather take my chances with NO security than the system we have now.

it's got nothing to do with security it's about reducing us all into serfdom why do you think you have a birth certificate? They OWN you.

 

[Yasherka]

Not sure legal advise was what I was looking for or even asked. Just notifying and asking if anyone else has seen this? Really... read the OP

I did. You said:

I have 5 options, pay it, plead poverty ( I wish I was illegal at this point), submit evidence (seriously the targets? and that they can't count right...), request an informal hearing with a TSA agent (that will go over well being a white male) and or a informal conference.

Sounded like you were asking what to do.

 

[Switchblade]

straight violation of 6th amendment due process. No fine can be leveled by any government agency without due process. Demand a court appearance, and motion for a summary judgement based on violation of 6th Amendment due process

 

[FS1]

I love it. You guys always talk personal responsibility....but never want to take it.

OP You effed up, either pay it or fight it. If you ignore it, good luck getting off that no fly list.

 

[diverdon]

Seems to me that it would be a lot more trouble than it was worth to do anything but pay it.

 

[Deadshot2]

I'm not sure that discovering 11 lbs of ammunition in a carry-on bag exactly qualifies as "profiling".

And how does one "forget" that it's there. Weight alone should be a clue.

Pay up and "lesson learned".

I used to fly regularly as part of my job. First thing you do is make sure you have no "contraband" in your carry-on or luggage. You're lucky you didn't get a cavity search and end up on the "no fly list". One of my employees did just for making a wise-ass remark.

 

[R Moran]

I am amazed at the attitudes of some people around here.
Responses in Red

One, I only fly when there is simply no other choice...like a relative on their death bed. I still will not submit to a fucking scanner that does not need to be there in the first place. How in the hell did we survive twenty years ago without the scanners, only those of you who use them must know.
The threat was not recognized by us until 9/11, unfortunately the adversaries had recognized the weakness in our system and exploited it. The public demanded the Govt. do something, so they did, not they are bitching about it.

As for encouraging someone to lie, that is something you pulled out of your ass without looking.
That was not directed at you, rather the posters that suggest the OP just ignore the letter and claim he did not get it, after admitting in a public forum he received it, and described in detail the events of the day.

And for the record, I like wasting people's time. Especially the time of those who think tyranny is great. It is the people like yourself that I especially enjoy pissing off.

I only get pissed at the airport because of clowns that should know the rules and be prepared for them. Instead they choose to act like children and waste other travelers time, while you are dealt with.

Please don't be so harsh. Why would you say something so rude about retarded mall cops? I would WAY rather be told what to do by a mall cop than the TSA. The TSA is worse than scum. (Sorry if I offended any scum by my comparison). They are also totally unnecessary and ineffective at what they supposedly do. I'd be surprised if a high school diploma is even required to work for them.
That's funny and oh so condescending of you. At least the mall cop has a job and is attempting to contribute to society. I think our adversaries have shown a willingness to attack mall's, would it not be better to have a trained officer in the immediate vicinity to respond? Instead of denigrating them, perhaps we should show some support, and demand they be better trained and equipped?
And just in case anyone on this forum works for the TSA, shame on you for selling out your fellow Americans just to earn some money...

So, they are sell out's for paying taxes, purchasing goods, feeding, housing and clothing their families? Perhaps they should just go on welfare, unemployment, WIC and various other forms of Govt. assistance...a far greater threat to this nation and your freedom.

Whoa, NOT prohibited items. Merely not allowed in carry on, they can lovingly be checked as can a 50 caliber Barrett.
Prohibited in carry on bags, which is what was be attempted.

Remember, these rules ONLY apply to the law abiding. Criminals won't follow the rules, including the ones wearing TSA uniforms. The problem with the TSA is they think they are cops. Sadly, an illegal execjtive order was signed giving them police power, yet they hold ZERO certification from a law enforcement academy in ANY state. They are NOT cops and that executive order changed nothing other tha the attitudes of those asshats.

What police power? I've never seen a TSA agent act like a cop..I wish they would. Of course everyone around here would bitch about that also.

You make a solid, well articulated statement.

One that I'm going to counter with (hopefully) an equally well versed response.


Public service. The core common denominator for Federal, State, and local Law Enforcement, Fire Departments, etc.

We see it every day, "To serve and protect."
There is no mandate for the police to "serve" you...that is a motto adopted by some departments, that thanks to Adam12 everyone thinks it means something.

What stops an officer of the law from parking right outside the front door of a bar during closing and encouraging Bob -who's had to many- from making a life changing decision?

"Bob, your smoked, call a cab buddy so I don't have to lock you up and spend half my shift writing a report. Let me catch some real assholes tonight instead."

Now, IF/when Bob goes full retard and gets in the car anyway, bust his ass. He earned it.

BUT, just think about the resources SAVED by this simple act. Does the officer have to do it? No, he/she can continue to do business as usual and fry his ass when he wiggles the slightest down the street.

My point again, "To serve and protect"

AND

The visual deterrent of actually being VISUAL and maybe, just maybe, making someone think twice and call a cab.

Hiding in the dark alley to bust someones ass isn't a visual deterrent. It's just not.

The city counsel of just about any municipality will tell you that LE/courts are not cash cows. They are upside down in revenue generation. Operational expenses far exceed the monies generated from fines.

So again, lets save a buck by parking our good officer in a high visibility area and have him actually develop a dialog with the community. -Granted, chatting with drunks is generally a loser, but with time, maybe its gets somewhere.


Now, take this Eutopian bullshit I'm spilling and apply it to TSA. Instead of these guys burning someone every chance they get, why do WE as a SOCIETY always feel compelled to FINE, LEVY, Penalize our own citizens? It's bullshit and goes against the fabric of this country.

We talk about being divided, well, here's a great place to initiate some change.

We have the 5th largest population world wide. 25% of our citizens are or have been locked up. There's a problem there gents. Where is this land of the free anymore. -And if your answer is "well, it's better than other places" SHAME ON YOU."

America is not about being "well, it's good enough." Never has been and I think personally most of our problems come from that mentality that now runs through our communities. -like a cancer...

Just some food for thought.

I have no idea how to respond to that...how did we get on DUI's? You're saying we should post a TSA agent at the airport to talk to people about how bringing explosives on a plane could be bad? It's obvious to me that the TSA is overwhelmed by the shear numbers of travelers. I would think the fine is in place to act a deterrent, much like a speeding ticket.
I have seen plenty of cops in and outside of bars at the end of the night to deter fights and DUI's. There are community policing policies in place such as DARE, and PSA's that caution of the risks to DUI, drugs, etc. yet, people still break the law.
If you plan on traveling by air, it's fairly common knowledge that ammo is not allowed in carry on bags, there are signs everywhere detailing what is allowed and not allowed in your carry on. If people took responsibility for their actions, there wouldn't be all these incidents.
After 9/11 a large segment of the 300+million population demanded the Govt. do something, the Govt. did something....now they are complaining.
It's the equivalent of calling the police because your spouse beat you, and then attacking the police when they arrest your spouse for beating you.


C.

Do you believe in your deepest soul, that if we were still allowed to carry firearms on aircraft (and the general public actually believed and followed the fact that self defense is ultimately only in the hands on one's self) that 9/11 would have actually occurred?

I don't actually give a damn about your answer since you asked a stupid question. Had I been on any of the 9/11 flights, I would have beat the living shit out of all of the highjackers with a tightly rolled up "Sky" magazine...

fucking box cutters to hijack a plane...there are very few real men in America an more

I think Archie Bunker had the answer, "arm all your passengers"...here's the issue. Everyone is not you, and will not defend themselves, or know how. In a dark alley, it's their problem, a few thousand feet up and it becomes a lot peoples problems...what about the poor bastard on the ground, when your attempt to fight back fails and the plane crashes into him?

To start with, it should not have anything to do with the government. This should be up to the airlines. The government has proven itself to be the least competent entity in the world, so why should this be any different? My father is a retired airline captain who was one of the very first to become an FFDO. One of his buddies from his navy flight squadron was captain of one of the 9-11 flights that crashed. He has always said that the tighter security is at the airport, the easier it is to get through, because they rely on unintelligent people to make judgment calls. Let the pilots be armed (most are ex military anyway), screen the luggage (but with people capable of using real judgment, not mindless drones who punish passengers for innocent mistakes, and stop being so paranoid.

I bet the OP was happy that the police used their judgment when they arrived at the scene, or any of us, when a cop gives us a warning instead of a ticket.
Continuing to sling insults about the intelligence of people you don't know does nothing for the discussion. You don't know the policies the agent has to work under. I doubt he/she has much room to exercise any judgment and is fairly micro-managed.
Secondly, this "no profiling" b.s. has got to stop. Take a lesson from the most secure airline in the world (El Al) and profile the Crap out of people. When I see my wife with young children get selected at random for a full search while some guy in the next lane walks right through without being asked to remove his turban (yes, that actually happened twice at JFK), there is something seriously wrong.

How many airports does Israel have? How many Airlines? How many flights? How many travelers?
The adversary has shown they are more then willing to use women and children to further their goals. I for one, believe whole heartedly they will use women, children, the elderly and infirm to defeat the system. The adversaries are also not confined to people who look middle eastern.
I'm also willing to bet there is a procedure in place that dictates who is searched based on a number, and not what someone looks like.

Third, no security in the world is going to stop every determined crazy person. I think we need to stop focusing so much on security and worry about more important things like our personal freedom. Every single time I've been searched has been an unreasonable search (one was an unreasonable search AND seizure - when they confiscated my nail clippers because of a 1" dull blade and made me miss my flight). I believe we have a legal document that prohibits those.I have no idea why a single person who considers themself an American would think this is a good idea. I would rather take my chances with NO security than the system we have now.

Who determine it was unreasonable? You? or a court?
Take your chances all you want with your life. Like it or not, there are others in this country, who vote and have "rights" that feel differently.

I think much of this anti TSA bullshit, is just that, bull shit. Some people just want to take advantage of any chance they can to cry foul, and conspiracy.

Someone claimed the TSA is ineffective. What is that based on? Have they been 100% certainly not, but who is at their job? But, there is no way to tell how many act's have been deterred or stopped. Their thousands of boxes of confiscated items, many of which are knives...any one of them could've been someone planning something. Even if it was a "lone wolf", a mentally unstable individual, or just a common criminal.

ETA: How many are willing to eliminate the FAA, piloting regulations and licensing? How about regulations on flight hours, crew rest, maintenance schedules, etc.?

 

[SMM123]

ETA: How many are willing to eliminate the FAA, piloting regulations and licensing? How about regulations on flight hours, crew rest, maintenance schedules, etc.?

One, me!

I don't need the government to regulate anything I do, or wish to do, or want to experience. Most other people in this country seem to need that, however.

 

[R Moran]

One, me!

I don't need the government to regulate anything I do, or wish to do, or want to experience. Most other people in this country seem to need that, however.

So, you're telling me, you are willing to get on a plane, that has had no regulations applied to it? No one to vet the pilot's ability, the flight worthiness of the A/C, the mechanic, or the parts installed? etc.
Or you personally, no so much about every single facet of your daily life, that you personally vet everything and everyone you come in contact with?

 

[Hairball]

Might be OT, but I'm going on my honeymoon in Florida in May, and I want to bring back some stuff to Europe when I go back. I'd like to bring back a bipod, a stock and maybe other items like it.
As far as I understand the law texts, this should be legal in checked luggage?

The problem you are going to have is if you purchase anything "mil-spec" as these items are generally restricted for export outside of the US. One option would be to box items up and take them to the local DHL office and have them shipped home instead of taking them on the plane. I ordered a pair of boots last year from the UK and they got held up in customs and I had to pay 40 dollars for the "inspection" in order to get my stuff. The best answer would be not to purchase anything that is prohibited from export (it will be stated right on the package or item) and anything else should be able to be put in carry-on bags and you may have to make declarations when you get home. Customs Regulations & Rules for Denmark Travelers Hope this helps, I have several relatives living in Denmark so I need to get over there and meet them someday

 

[SMM123]

So, you're telling me, you are willing to get on a plane, that has had no regulations applied to it? No one to vet the pilot's ability, the flight worthiness of the A/C, the mechanic, or the parts installed? etc.
Or you personally, no so much about every single facet of your daily life, that you personally vet everything and everyone you come in contact with?

It seems that that is actually the case today. Even with the "regulations" that currently exist, only the pilot knows his condition at the moment he flies. Just because he has logged his hours, passed his flight checks, etc, etc, does not mean he is fit to fly today, at this very moment. Ask me how I know. The exact same goes for the plane, mechanics, and parts, since none are rigorously inspected in the moments just before a flight.

The false belief that a government of a few thousand can better regulate an industry than a 100 million paying individuals is why this entire discussion is even taking place. If a manufacturer or service provider is not doing a good job, or getting people hurt or killed, the people will stop spending their money with that entity and they will cease to exist.

Even with all of the regulations in this nation, people still get injured and die in plane crashes, auto accidents, shootings, falls, workplace accidents, and so on. Death is a part of life and pain is a swift teacher. Regulations serve to do nothing more than control the people and line the pockets of a few. Once upon a time, we were free and 99% of these regulations did not exist. How did we ever make it I wonder?

 

[FS1]

Unregulated things have always worked out so well.

Before fire saftey regs....Triangle shirt waist and Tropicanna come to mind.

Unregulated medical device industry...boy they really came up with some good stuff. Like the foot xray device at shoe stores and many other dangerous creepy things.

Before pharmaceuticals were regulated, there was coke in Coke, and you could by opium for your babies. Hell they could bottle horse piss if they wanted as long as there were a buyer all is good right?

Until recently para sailing in Florida was unregulated....after several negligent deaths they finally passed a law.

Oh and lets not forget the economic crash of 2008, there were plenty of regs...but they just decided not to enforce them. I am still paying for that one.

Yes it is always better to let the free market decide (roll eyes). I say if you hate Govt and regulations so much.....Afghanistan is the place for you. You could even wear your cave man outfit.

Once upon a time we lived in log cabins, rode horses, raised our own food and most people never got more then maybe twenty miles from their birthplace in their lifetime.

 

[R Moran]

It seems that that is actually the case today. Even with the "regulations" that currently exist, only the pilot knows his condition at the moment he flies. Just because he has logged his hours, passed his flight checks, etc, etc, does not mean he is fit to fly today, at this very moment. Ask me how I know. The exact same goes for the plane, mechanics, and parts, since none are rigorously inspected in the moments just before a flight.

The false belief that a government of a few thousand can better regulate an industry than a 100 million paying individuals is why this entire discussion is even taking place. If a manufacturer or service provider is not doing a good job, or getting people hurt or killed, the people will stop spending their money with that entity and they will cease to exist.

Even with all of the regulations in this nation, people still get injured and die in plane crashes, auto accidents, shootings, falls, workplace accidents, and so on. Death is a part of life and pain is a swift teacher. Regulations serve to do nothing more than control the people and line the pockets of a few. Once upon a time, we were free and 99% of these regulations did not exist. How did we ever make it I wonder?

Life is different today, keep believing you have to trust or depend on no one.
I'd rather not be the dead guy that improves the industry...or the dead that is a result of someone who insisted he knew better.

Good luck, I was warned about the bear pit on this forum, I should have heeded them.

 

[Guest]

Did we make a mistake, yep never said it was anyone's fault but ours.. just being fined.

The same shit happens to me when I get a speeding ticket. It's almost like they think the associated penalties with laws will somehow deter people from breaking the law! Goddamned Nazis!

 

[SMM123]

Life is different today, keep believing you have to trust or depend on no one.
I'd rather not be the dead guy that improves the industry...or the dead that is a result of someone who insisted he knew better.

Good luck, I was warned about the bear pit on this forum, I should have heeded them.

I never said anything about believing I didn't have to trust or depend on others, even though it is misplaced trust and dependence that is more likely to get you killed than a healthy dose of skepticism.

You still think the regulations are going to keep you from being the dead guy that finds the problem. There are a lot of dead people who died even with the regulations in place. You are kidding yourself.

 

[fx77]

Consider yourself lucky +-
Don't ever screw with the feds; U can't afford it...consider the fine an extortion bribe to keep U off a NSA or a No Fly list..it is a cheap form of insurance.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Step out of the crosshairs.

Pay the fine.

Move on.

You other guys...; I remind you that Don Quixote came to a bad end...

Power is power, and we ain't got it. You don't like that, then get your noses under the tent and into politics. Otherwise, you ain't got a leg to stand on...

It's all fine and good to argue good and evil, but this is not good vs evil. This is all about whether or not one enjoys being in the crosshairs. If you do, then you're different from me

Only a DUMBASS would step up and say, here I am, come on and clobber my DUMBASS,..

Back in the days before the Magna Charta, nobody in their right mind would ever consider stepping up to the throne and pissing one the Monarch's shoes. Things may change, but all that's really different is all those additional thrones we see around us today.

Greg

 

[hlee]

You are quite right. It is easy for me to say, and it is his time and money, not mine. And I don't give a shit what the rules state, as if that makes it right. What is he going to fight? Read the last sentence of the OP.





Not me. I have been crying tyranny since the mid 80's about thousands of government intrusions. I just added another one today. And I fight it with my time and money whenever it directly affect me and mine, which has happened more than once. I have not won them all, but I have won some, which is more than I can say about most people.

Maybe if more people fought this kind of crap more often, we would not be in the situation we are currently enduring. I bet you guys go through the body scanners too. I don't. I do all that I can to clog up their system. Maybe you should too.

I can see the headlines now... "Man that caused scene at local airport TSA checkpoint "clogging the system" found in remote bathroom with head in toilet- clogging the system..."

For those of us that fly routinely, those that can't remember some very simple rules make the whole process a headache. Those are the guys that can't remmeber they are carrying a wallet. The real jackasses have an agenda. Curb check your high-horse and soap-box or stay the F--- home.

I get it. The op shoots routinely and the weight of ammo is really not noticed as out of the ordinary. And, he and his wife divided tasks to knock out the process quicker. A wire got crossed in the communication and he wound up with a bunch of ammo at the checkpoint. Shit happens and everything got sorted out. Hell, I have twice thrown pocket knives in the trash cans while in line at security, realizing that I had not stowed them in my checked bag. This is not directed at him.

This is directed at the douche-bags that want to stage sit ins while I'm trying to get to work or to get home. If you must clog the system, do it before you get to the airport. Or, do it when you get where you are going. The best thing you are going to accomplish in the security line is pissing off everyone behind you. And, you will give the tsa agents a "funny story" to tell on break.

If yiou get your junk touched at security, just count your blessings. Some of us will spend weeks at a time away form our families and not get our junk touched once...

 

[Graham]

TSA notice given to me about a Civil Penalty

straight violation of 6th amendment due process. No fine can be leveled by any government agency without due process. Demand a court appearance, and motion for a summary judgement based on violation of 6th Amendment due process

Seriously?!! Good luck with that.

 

[SMM123]

I can see the headlines now... "Man that caused scene at local airport TSA checkpoint "clogging the system" found in remote bathroom with head in toilet- clogging the system..."

For those of us that fly routinely, those that can't remember some very simple rules make the whole process a headache. Those are the guys that can't remmeber they are carrying a wallet. The real jackasses have an agenda. Curb check your high-horse and soap-box or stay the F--- home.

I get it. The op shoots routinely and the weight of ammo is really not noticed as out of the ordinary. And, he and his wife divided tasks to knock out the process quicker. A wire got crossed in the communication and he wound up with a bunch of ammo at the checkpoint. Shit happens and everything got sorted out. Hell, I have twice thrown pocket knives in the trash cans while in line at security, realizing that I had not stowed them in my checked bag. This is not directed at him.

This is directed at the douche-bags that want to stage sit ins while I'm trying to get to work or to get home. If you must clog the system, do it before you get to the airport. Or, do it when you get where you are going. The best thing you are going to accomplish in the security line is pissing off everyone behind you. And, you will give the tsa agents a "funny story" to tell on break.

Before I get up on my high horse, what I am advocating, and personally do myself is step to the side of the scanner and force them to use time and manpower to physically conduct a search. If EVERYONE did this, the scanners would disappear since this clogging of the system would be disruptive to flyers, airports, and airlines. They could not afford the manpower required to search every person and piece of luggage. You don't like it. I don't give a damn.

If yiou get your junk touched at security, just count your blessings. Some of us will spend weeks at a time away form our families and not get our junk touched once...

Spare me the pity party. It is completely your choice to have a job or way of life that compels you to be a frequent flyer or super commuter, or what the hell ever it is that takes you away from your family for weeks/months/years at a time. You made that bed, you lie in it. I don't feel sorry for you one bit, especially for a choice you made all on your own. And I am not about to let your personal choices have an effect on my personal liberties. So when you see that guy (or gal) bypassing the scanners, that is me and mine. Either stay pissed off or come join us in line and help do something about our constantly eroding personal liberties.

 

[Oddball Six]

If you have a burned out taillight in your truck that you knew about and tell your wife not to drive it, but she does and your wife gets pulled over for it, do you get mad at the cop for doing his job and refuse to pay the fine?

You accidently screwed up. No big deal. I would pay the $125 and save half of your fine and be done with it. That gives you $125 more for new reloading supplies. Make your wife pay it off in "favors".

^^ This.

 

[hlee]

Before I get up on my high horse, what I am advocating, and personally do myself is step to the side of the scanner and force them to use time and manpower to physically conduct a search. If EVERYONE did this, the scanners would disappear since this clogging of the system would be disruptive to flyers, airports, and airlines. They could not afford the manpower required to search every person and piece of luggage. You don't like it. I don't give a damn.




Spare me the pity party. It is completely your choice to have a job or way of life that compels you to be a frequent flyer or super commuter, or what the hell ever it is that takes you away from your family for weeks/months/years at a time. You made that bed, you lie in it. I don't feel sorry for you one bit, especially for a choice you made all on your own. And I am not about to let your personal choices have an effect on my personal liberties. So when you see that guy (or gal) bypassing the scanners, that is me and mine. Either stay pissed off or come join us in line and help do something about our constantly eroding personal liberties.

The part about the junk was a joke. Clogging up the system that we all have to use makes you a douche.

I feel the body scanner less invasive than a pat down.

That you actively seek the pat down changes the equation, but really just makes it creepy.

 

[hlee]

I know these Quotes aren't popular with many, but.....

The Shalafi's Journal: A few quotes by the Founding Fathers on the threat of tyranny.

I wonder how many of those quotes are spurious. The first, supposedly by Jefferson?... All tyranny needs to gain a foothold...(Quotation) « Thomas Jefferson?s Monticello

 

[Matno]

One, me!

I don't need the government to regulate anything I do, or wish to do, or want to experience. Most other people in this country seem to need that, however.

Make that two. I work in the most regulated industry the country (health care), and it's torture. I can honestly say that I don't think there's a single law or regulation outside the statute of frauds that improves the quality, safety, or cost of health care as well as the free market would. The government's role is to protect life, liberty, and property. EVERYTHING else is an inappropriate abuse of power. The way that should be accomplished is by punishing those who violate others' rights, not by preemptively violating EVERYONE'S rights to appease those who crave security above all else.

I've flown on "unvetted" airplanes in 3rd world countries several times. Someone even belted a 100lb bag of carrots into the seat next to me once. It was my choice, and I was more than willing to assume some risk for the lower price. It should be that way here. Life is dangerous. The government is not supposed to eliminate all risk (nor can it). The fact that so many people on this forum seem to think we should just go along with it to make our lives more convenient is quite surprising. Apparently some of you don't realize that there is no real difference between that and turning in our guns if that becomes the law. IT'S THE SAME PRINCIPLE!