Rifle Scopes TT315M alternative, or the mid-range to rule them all?

[heavy65]

Asking this here to avoid derailing the TT Gen3XR thread. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd buy a TT315M with Gen3XR and a locking windage turret today, but I can't. If/when they a G3XR TT315M, I'll buy one. Until then I would entertain spending ~$2k on something else.

The primary rifle for this will be a tarted up GRS/SSG3000 for hunting deer at dawn and dusk and hogs at night (under illumination) with 6.5x55AA 140MTH, and target shooting with 308. Hunting ranges are typically 300 but up to 500 yards. Target shooting out to 700 yards. That's the shooting acreage I'm working with but not the only rifle I'd like to be able to mount this on (using a Spuhr or possibly a Bobro).

Things that attracted me to the TT315M: light weight, wide FOV, low light performance. The reason I want to wait for a Gen3XR and not just go for the Gen2XR: floating dot and 0.2 mils. I can live with non-locking windage turret but a locking one would make it platonically "perfect." If I ever retired it from hunting, it would find a permanent home on a Mk12 clone, with all the warm and fuzzies the Premier lineage would provide. Feel free to make fun of me for that one, but this who I am, dad! (As an aside, a TT315H with a No4 and target elevation turret would be very tempting, but I really don't like duplex rets, or spending $3k on something I can't dial elevation on, so let's pretend I didn't bring a No4 into this).

Around $2k, what should I be looking at instead? Goals are to maximize low light performance, maximize FOV, keep the weight as far under 30 oz as possible, and do so in the neighborhood of 2.5/3-15/18x [ETA: FFP mil-based ret]. Priority is low end FOV over high end magnification. Perhaps the 3-18 XTRIII?

 

[koshkin]

A couple of comments:

1) You will be able to dial elevation with TT315H just fine. Very nice click feel too.

2) XTR3 looks very promising for what you want, but really none of the scope in this category are very light weight. Manufacturers are paying attention and there are scope in the works to address this niche, but I doubt any of them will come out this year. Probably by next SHOT.

In the meantime, if you can live without a tree reticle, have you considered P4Xi 4-16x56?

ILya

 

[thestacche]

A couple of comments:

1) You will be able to dial elevation with TT315H just fine. Very nice click feel too.

2) XTR3 looks very promising for what you want, but really none of the scope in this category are very light weight. Manufacturers are paying attention and there are scope in the works to address this niche, but I doubt any of them will come out this year. Probably by next SHOT.

In the meantime, if you can live without a tree reticle, have you considered P4Xi 4-16x56?

ILya

Good to hear they are listening.

 

[B-P-UU]

Gen II XR is super fine at 3x. Yes, all FFP scopes are, but the gen II more so than others.

I've had the 315M, LRHS, LRTS, 5-20 Ultra Short, AMG, and 4-16 ATACR's and my opinion is the ATACR fills this role best (overall package). You can find MIL-R's on the PX for under 2k most days and the MIL-R is great for hunting and works well at low power.

 

[heavy65]

You're right of course about the turret, brain fart.

To provide a bit more context, until deciding that the TT315M juice was worth the squeeze, I had been considering swapping a dedicated hunting scope onto the SSG with 6.5x55, and then switching to a dedicated target scope for 308. That may ultimately still be the best answer. What made the TT315M so compelling to me is that it seems to have the relatively light weight and high FOV of a mid-mag-range hunting scope, with the turrets and ret of a target scope. The cost is easier to justify to myself if I'm buying one scope for the gun, not two. So my whole premise of trying to do too much in one scope may be flawed here.

I had been looking at a Docter 2.5x15-56 #4 for hunting, and something like the 3-15x44 PST for target, then realized that with the TT315M I might be able to have my cake and eat it too, with the "alpha" image quality, all in one scope. The low mag FOV is important to me so I hadn't considered going over 3x min magnification, instead looking at 2.5/3 on the low end. In part because I also was thinking, perhaps wrongly, that the higher FOV would indicate better low light performance.

Maybe B-P-UU is onto something with the 4-16 ATACR, especially with Mil-XT around the corner? A major reason besides personal preference that I wanted the Gen3XR in TT315M, is that I was hoping the center dot would be more useful at 3x at overcoming the low mag FFP fineness than the Gen2XR. I could be totally wrong about that as well though.

 

[Langford]

The 4-16x56 S&B Polar T96 May be worth looking into...excellent in low light, locking turrets, under 30oz, works for hunting and target.

 

[Chasing3]

I am in the same boat. Always looking for the scope manufacturers to make a scope with your specs. I am holding out to see the Burris XTRIII 3-18x50 like you mentioned. I have a NF ATACR 4-16x42 with the Mil-C reticle. Overall I really like it but I am still wanting a finer reticle as I power up past the 12 mag range. I also feel like NF could have done without numbering each horizontal hash mark and went every other. The Burris SCR 2 looks really promising and not as busy as the NF Mil-XT in my opinion.

 

[heavy65]

I heard rumor of new S&B reticles this year, but all I see listed for the T96 on their site currently are a bunch of crosshairs. I didn't really make it explicit but I'd like at least a FFP mil-based reticle. If I went the No4 route I'd be looking for something cheaper like the Docter, so I could get an additional target scope. Have always been interested in the S&B hunting line though.

 

[Langford]

P4F Illuminated reticle in my FFP Polar 4-16...

It’s fuzzy on the bottom because my camera wasn’t centered, not because of Barska quality glass

 

[heavy65]

Oh! Nice!

Did you take him?

 

[Langford]

No, that was just a little 2.5 year old...I was holding out for his dad, but he never showed up.

They may be available anywhere now, but Eurooptic was the only place originally that got the P4f reticle in the Polar series.

 

[Covertnoob5]

A major reason besides personal preference that I wanted the Gen3XR in TT315M, is that I was hoping the center dot would be more useful at 3x at overcoming the low mag FFP fineness than the Gen2XR. I could be totally wrong about that as well though.

Even in the gen3xr you wouldn’t be able to see the center dot at 3x. All FFP rets I’ve even seen turn into basically a duplex at 3x. Even my Premier 3-15 gen 2 mil dot is basically a duplex and that’s one of the thickest reticles ive seen.

 

[jakelly]

Check out the 3-12 Kahles.

 

[kingston]

I’d be considering these (not in any particular order).

-ATACR 4-16x50 F1 Mil-C (0.05MIL floating center dot)
-Minox ZP5 3-15x50mm (MR5 doesn’t have a floating dot; MR4 has 0.05 MIL dot but only available on 5-25x56mm)
-March 3-24x52 (FML-1 floating center DOT is heavy @ 0.1MIL, would be fantastic @ 0.035MIL)
-Kahles K318i (MSR/Ki —MSR2/Ki is not available in the K318i, this is an issue for those of us who also shoot the K525i with the MSR2/Ki and prefer consistency across platforms)

Tiny floating center dots, like the 0.035MIL dot used on both variants of each of Kahles’ MSR/Ki and SKMR combined with bright daylight illumination capability offer broad flexibility. At high magnifications and extreme ranges (and/or small targets) the tiny floating center dot doesn’t threaten to obscure aiming points. At low magnification, when shooting at nearer targets and presumably with little forewarning, one can bracket with reticle stadia. Further, increasing the illumination intensity of FFP reticles serves to overcome visibility issues associated with these reticle’s thin stadia at low magnification settings.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Atacr 4-16x42 or x50 with mil-c is probably your best bet in the 2k area.

Probably a bunch of x42 going up for sale used soon with the x50 coming.

 

[Squibbler]

Asking this here to avoid derailing the TT Gen3XR thread. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd buy a TT315M with Gen3XR and a locking windage turret today, but I can't. If/when they a G3XR TT315M, I'll buy one. Until then I would entertain spending ~$2k on something else.

The primary rifle for this will be a tarted up GRS/SSG3000 for hunting deer at dawn and dusk and hogs at night (under illumination) with 6.5x55AA 140MTH, and target shooting with 308. Hunting ranges are typically 300 but up to 500 yards. Target shooting out to 700 yards. That's the shooting acreage I'm working with but not the only rifle I'd like to be able to mount this on (using a Spuhr or possibly a Bobro).

Things that attracted me to the TT315M: light weight, wide FOV, low light performance. The reason I want to wait for a Gen3XR and not just go for the Gen2XR: floating dot and 0.2 mils. I can live with non-locking windage turret but a locking one would make it platonically "perfect." If I ever retired it from hunting, it would find a permanent home on a Mk12 clone, with all the warm and fuzzies the Premier lineage would provide. Feel free to make fun of me for that one, but this who I am, dad! (As an aside, a TT315H with a No4 and target elevation turret would be very tempting, but I really don't like duplex rets, or spending $3k on something I can't dial elevation on, so let's pretend I didn't bring a No4 into this).

Around $2k, what should I be looking at instead? Goals are to maximize low light performance, maximize FOV, keep the weight as far under 30 oz as possible, and do so in the neighborhood of 2.5/3-15/18x [ETA: FFP mil-based ret]. Priority is low end FOV over high end magnification. Perhaps the 3-18 XTRIII?

I'm in full agreement with you. This scope with locking turrets and a tree reticle would be perfect hunting/night hunting scope IMO. I'd pre-pay as soon as I caught wind of such a thing. Be perfect especially for my night rig, where I'm trying to reduce weight, want locked turrets-assurrance that zero is maintained for using rangefinder and holdovers. In the mean time been using ATACR 4-16x42 with T3. The ATACR fits the bill, but would love to upgrade.

 

[B-P-UU]

Locking turrets are not necessary on the 315M.. they have TT's super tactile and sharp clicks and only 6 MIL per rev. This combined with really small turrets means unintentionally spinning one is simply not possible in my experience.

 

[Squibbler]

Locking turrets are not necessary on the 315M.. they have TT's super tactile and sharp clicks and only 6 MIL per rev. This combined with really small turrets means unintentionally spinning one is simply not possible in my experience.

I have no experience with TT, so I would not know. They are definitely on my radar. I have not had a scope yet at which I have not accidently spun one click or multiple clicks from bouncing in my truck seat or slinging on (especially with heavy winter clothing). Then in the dark of night my OCD keeps asking me if my turrets are spun. Exception being my lockable or capped turret scopes. Just personal preference and a requirement for my purchase. But you definitely have my curiosity peeked with your comment.

 

[koshkin]

I have no experience with TT, so I would not know. They are definitely on my radar. I have not had a scope yet at which I have not accidently spun one click or multiple clicks from bouncing in my truck seat or slinging on (especially with heavy winter clothing). Then in the dark of night my OCD keeps asking me if my turrets are spun. Exception being my lockable or capped turret scopes. Just personal preference and a requirement for my purchase. But you definitely have my curiosity peeked with your comment.

TT Hunter turret are designed for just such an application. I use TT315M and the turrets have never shifted on me while slung, but as I said above, I am trying to convince TT to make a version of the Hunter with an abbreviated tree.

If you are comfortable with a simple reticle (#4), you should check out Blaser hunting scopes. I saw them for the first time at SHOT and was absolutely stunned. All turrets on those are of locking variety. The 2.8-20x50 weighs 27 ounces and in terms of optical quality, it is likely to go head to head with any scope ever made. I will probably try to test the low power version: 1-7x28 this year. On 1x, that scope is the best I saw this year at SHOT. I will try to pit it against Magnus.

Blaser scopes are clearly aimed at hunting. I do not think they care about tactical since that is where Minox plays, but all Blaser scopes are FFP and with a couple of small tree reticles they will absolutely do damage in any market. Like I said, I was stunned.

ILya

 

[Squibbler]

TT Hunter turret are designed for just such an application. I use TT315M and the turrets have never shifted on me while slung, but as I said above, I am trying to convince TT to make a version of the Hunter with an abbreviated tree.

If you are comfortable with a simple reticle (#4), you should check out Blaser hunting scopes. I saw them for the first time at SHOT and was absolutely stunned. All turrets on those are of locking variety. The 2.8-20x50 weighs 27 ounces and in terms of optical quality, it is likely to go head to head with any scope ever made. I will probably try to test the low power version: 1-7x28 this year. On 1x, that scope is the best I saw this year at SHOT. I will try to pit it against Magnus.

Blaser scopes are clearly aimed at hunting. I do not think they care about tactical since that is where Minox plays, but all Blaser scopes are FFP and with a couple of small tree reticles they will absolutely do damage in any market. Like I said, I was stunned.

ILya

Thank you for your suggestions. I was not really aware of the TT315H. I've seen TT H series mentioned, but never really took the time to investigate further. As I have become more and more interested in TT, I have been browsing their website more and not even seen the hunter series mentioned there. As I am coming to understand, it hasn't been realeased yet...? Otherwise this model looks about perfect, except in agreeance with you, a tree reticle option. If they placed the gen 3 xr or variant that is model specific, I would immediately send the check.

The Blaser looks interesting. I probably would not venture that far. I like my tactical based scopes too much, ...but,never say never.

 

[koshkin]

Thank you for your suggestions. I was not really aware of the TT315H. I've seen TT H series mentioned, but never really took the time to investigate further. As I have become more and more interested in TT, I have been browsing their website more and not even seen the hunter series mentioned there. As I am coming to understand, it hasn't been realeased yet...? Otherwise this model looks about perfect, except in agreeance with you, a tree reticle option. If they placed the gen 3 xr or variant that is model specific, I would immediately send the check.

The Blaser looks interesting. I probably would not venture that far. I like my tactical based scopes too much, ...but,never say never.

TT Hunter is not yet released. It is almost there, so we will see it out this year. They showed me what the one remaining issue to resolve is, and it should not take them too long.

Ilya

 

[Glassaholic]

Blaser scopes are clearly aimed at hunting. I do not think they care about tactical since that is where Minox plays, but all Blaser scopes are FFP and with a couple of small tree reticles they will absolutely do damage in any market. Like I said, I was stunned.

ILya

ILya, are you saying "if" they had some small tree reticles or do you mean they "do" have some tree reticles as all I can find is their center illuminated dot infinity reticle? Also, in their video their turrets seem to be limited to 8 mil? They look like nice scopes though.

OP - if you can wait until the new Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 with SCR2 comes out (in a few months possibly), that might be just the scope you're looking for, since you mentioned $2k most of the other scopes mentioned would fall outside that range and since you also mentioned low light shooting not sure the ATACR 4-16x42 will fit that criteria well but the new 4-16x50 might albeit at a bit more money.

 

[koshkin]

ILya, are you saying "if" they had some small tree reticles or do you mean they "do" have some tree reticles as all I can find is their center illuminated dot infinity reticle? Also, in their video their turrets seem to be limited to 8 mil? They look like nice scopes though.

OP - if you can wait until the new Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 with SCR2 comes out (in a few months possibly), that might be just the scope you're looking for, since you mentioned $2k most of the other scopes mentioned would fall outside that range and since you also mentioned low light shooting not sure the ATACR 4-16x42 will fit that criteria well but the new 4-16x50 might albeit at a bit more money.

I meant "if".

Ilya

 

[Just Macca]

TT Hunter is not yet released. It is almost there, so we will see it out this year. They showed me what the one remaining issue to resolve is, and it should not take them too long.

Ilya

Any idea if it will be lighter than the M series? Thanks!

 

[heavy65]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice, it's really appreciated. To take the recommendations listed here in turn:

1. Ilya saying lighter weight options proliferating by next Shot. That's great to hear, and I wonder, might you be including S&B's mystery 3x21-50 hunting/competition model in that category?

2. PX5i: I'd like to purchase by the fall, so I think I'd rather hold out for the XTR3 3.3-18x50 illum SCR2 than go that route. I do like the 56mm objective but am hoping the XTRIII optical quality will make up for it. Same reasoning that led me away from the Docter 2.5x15-56 as a hunting-only scope and to the TT315M in the first place. I don't know that that actually makes any sense though.

3. NF ATACR 4-16x50 F1 Mil-XT: I like the solid FOV on this in particular, which tempers the fact that it doesn't go down to 2.5-3, but I don't like that it's within an ounce and 8 bills of say a ZP5 5-25x56 MR4, which I feel is the higher magnification equivalent of the TT315M - light for its class yet with all the bells and whistles. I'd really rather the mid-range ATACR be closer to 25oz than 35oz. That's the main (only?) drawback for me.

4. S&B Polar T96: Love the idea, but at equivalent TT315M price level it would have to have a reticle option at least comparable to the Gen2XR.

5. Kahles K312i: seems to be discontinued? Same TT315M price level and reticle drawbacks as the T96, and also lacking in max magnification.

6. Minox ZP5 3-15x50: equivalent price to TT315M but equivalent weight to TT315P (for obvious reasons).

7. March 3-24x52 FML-T1: This one seems really compelling as an alternative. Even lighter than the TT315M, $500 cheaper street, ridiculously short range parallax, great magnification. Watched Frank's review and am wondering how much of a PITA that parallax knob is, and whether they've switched to using "standard" mils in the mean time, but those are minor concerns. Main drawback: relatively narrow FOV compared to the TT or ATACR, which I worry would affect low light performance. I don't know enough about the illumination in that regard either. I think if they went to a 5x/6x erector to broaden the FOV this would be an easier sell.

8. Kahles 3.5-18x50: really like this idea in SKMR3, but not enough to overlook the extra quarter pounder at same price as TT315M.

9. S&B 3-20x50 PMII Ultrashort: Thanks to the S&B and March ideas I also took a look at this amazing little guy (the S&B, not Frank, but hopefully also Frank if he gets around to making a video on it). The obvious drawback being that it is even more pricey than the TT315M, and of course closer to 35oz than 25oz. For the mag range and compactness (i.e. balance) I think that's actually ok, and to top it off it has an even better FOV than the TT315M! I also really like that S&B will do turret and reticle work on them if desired, something I don't believe TT can currently handle. That said S&B is an option I would like to let simmer, not just because of the $$, but also given the mysterious 3-21x50 they teased at Shot 2018, and to see what folks think of the new grid reticle.

10. XTRIII 3.3-18x50 SCR2: without a doubt this is the best "value" alternative on paper. I was a little disappointed that the specs for both weight and FOV from the early teases seemed to thin out once the specs were finalized. Once they add illumination this will likely be over 30oz, and the FOV is still fantastic if not the 40+ feet we were first hearing about. I am really looking forward to Ilya's assessment of the optical quality, and think it is pretty likely this is what I'll end up with by the fall.

Overall these comparisons really reveal how superb the TT315M is as an option, even while I find myself holding out on the perfect final touches on it (Gen3XR, locking windage) to pull the trigger. Still very curious to hear y'alls thoughts.

 

[Diver160651]

Gen II XR is super fine at 3x. Yes, all FFP scopes are, but the gen II more so than others.

I've had the 315M, LRHS, LRTS, 5-20 Ultra Short, AMG, and 4-16 ATACR's and my opinion is the ATACR fills this role best (overall package). You can find MIL-R's on the PX for under 2k most days and the MIL-R is great for hunting and works well at low power.

But he did say FOV was a priority-

Other than the S&B a lot of those are NOT very generous. Some of those are in the low 20’s.

Not sexy, but at 28 oz a gen2 Viper 3-15 FFP provides about 41’ at 100y. The new XTR3 will have similar FOV.

I find that needing readable subtensions when you need ultra wide FOV to more of a misnomer. I turn my scopes to low power pop up the daylite illumination and end up with an easy to acquire duplex like hunting reticle for where you might jump hogs.. As the distance get longer where wind and hold overs matter, time increases so a quick spin of the mag ring fixes that.

I have my eye on a couple of the new Meopta’s being released.

Just got back the sausage a couple of days ago.. all the stakes and backstraps are in the cooler

 

[chasedeer]

The ATACR will be the best bet at 2k range @james looks like the refrigerator would be filled up for a while.

 

[lennyo3034]

7. March 3-24x52 FML-T1: This one seems really compelling as an alternative. Even lighter than the TT315M, $500 cheaper street, ridiculously short range parallax, great magnification. Watched Frank's review and am wondering how much of a PITA that parallax knob is, and whether they've switched to using "standard" mils in the mean time, but those are minor concerns. Main drawback: relatively narrow FOV compared to the TT or ATACR, which I worry would affect low light performance. I don't know enough about the illumination in that regard either. I think if they went to a 5x/6x erector to broaden the FOV this would be an easier sell.

This is the only scope I can comment on. I will say that unless you absolutely need that broad of a magnification range, it’s not ideal. You’re giving up a lot for that range.

I actually like the dot size as it’s useable from 5x to 24x. The tapered reticle can be used as a duplex at 3x. FOV is not great. Parallax hasn’t been a problem for me. Illumination sucks and should not even be considered, especially at the price they charge for it.

I needed a scope for my longer distance hunting rifle, and despite already owning this scope, I bought a 3-12x44 LRHS instead. The reticle is better for up close shots and 12 is plenty for any hunting situation. Likewise, for your purposes, I think the TT315M is a better choice.

 

[heavy65]

Between the PST Gen 2 3-15 and the Burris XTR3, the "not sexy" category is pretty well covered. "Sexy" is a lot harder to figure out (go figure). The FOV and objective advantage on the XTR3 for low light make the choice between the two clear for this particular circumstance. The one thing that makes me scratch my head about Burris is how they seem to have priced the MSRP $39 whole dollars past the production PRS class. That's.. weird.

Before I considered the TT315M and was still looking at dedicated No4 hunting scopes, It came down to the Meopta R2 vs the Docter V6, both in 2.5-15x56. The Docter has parallax adjustment so it was my frontrunner until I ultimately started to look hard at what made the TT315M so special. Ilya mentioned the LRHS to me in the Gen3XR thread, and I had actually looked at that too, but the lack of illumination had caused me to pass it over. It's a shame that they seem to have discontinued it, and I wonder if illumination wasn't the real factor there rather than the reticle design (he was saying how American shooters seem to prefer duplex, which I personally find to be pointlessly obscuring vs the No4).

Thanks for the feedback on the March, that is as I feared. That's why I would prefer a lower erector and greater FOV overall.

 

[koshkin]

Any idea if it will be lighter than the M series? Thanks!

Marginally, if at all.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice, it's really appreciated. To take the recommendations listed here in turn:

1. Ilya saying lighter weight options proliferating by next Shot. That's great to hear, and I wonder, might you be including S&B's mystery 3x21-50 hunting/competition model in that category?

2. PX5i: I'd like to purchase by the fall, so I think I'd rather hold out for the XTR3 3.3-18x50 illum SCR2 than go that route. I do like the 56mm objective but am hoping the XTRIII optical quality will make up for it. Same reasoning that led me away from the Docter 2.5x15-56 as a hunting-only scope and to the TT315M in the first place. I don't know that that actually makes any sense though.

3. NF ATACR 4-16x50 F1 Mil-XT: I like the solid FOV on this in particular, which tempers the fact that it doesn't go down to 2.5-3, but I don't like that it's within an ounce and 8 bills of say a ZP5 5-25x56 MR4, which I feel is the higher magnification equivalent of the TT315M - light for its class yet with all the bells and whistles. I'd really rather the mid-range ATACR be closer to 25oz than 35oz. That's the main (only?) drawback for me.

4. S&B Polar T96: Love the idea, but at equivalent TT315M price level it would have to have a reticle option at least comparable to the Gen2XR.

5. Kahles K312i: seems to be discontinued? Same TT315M price level and reticle drawbacks as the T96, and also lacking in max magnification.

6. Minox ZP5 3-15x50: equivalent price to TT315M but equivalent weight to TT315P (for obvious reasons).

7. March 3-24x52 FML-T1: This one seems really compelling as an alternative. Even lighter than the TT315M, $500 cheaper street, ridiculously short range parallax, great magnification. Watched Frank's review and am wondering how much of a PITA that parallax knob is, and whether they've switched to using "standard" mils in the mean time, but those are minor concerns. Main drawback: relatively narrow FOV compared to the TT or ATACR, which I worry would affect low light performance. I don't know enough about the illumination in that regard either. I think if they went to a 5x/6x erector to broaden the FOV this would be an easier sell.

8. Kahles 3.5-18x50: really like this idea in SKMR3, but not enough to overlook the extra quarter pounder at same price as TT315M.

9. S&B 3-20x50 PMII Ultrashort: Thanks to the S&B and March ideas I also took a look at this amazing little guy (the S&B, not Frank, but hopefully also Frank if he gets around to making a video on it). The obvious drawback being that it is even more pricey than the TT315M, and of course closer to 35oz than 25oz. For the mag range and compactness (i.e. balance) I think that's actually ok, and to top it off it has an even better FOV than the TT315M! I also really like that S&B will do turret and reticle work on them if desired, something I don't believe TT can currently handle. That said S&B is an option I would like to let simmer, not just because of the $$, but also given the mysterious 3-21x50 they teased at Shot 2018, and to see what folks think of the new grid reticle.

10. XTRIII 3.3-18x50 SCR2: without a doubt this is the best "value" alternative on paper. I was a little disappointed that the specs for both weight and FOV from the early teases seemed to thin out once the specs were finalized. Once they add illumination this will likely be over 30oz, and the FOV is still fantastic if not the 40+ feet we were first hearing about. I am really looking forward to Ilya's assessment of the optical quality, and think it is pretty likely this is what I'll end up with by the fall.

Overall these comparisons really reveal how superb the TT315M is as an option, even while I find myself holding out on the perfect final touches on it (Gen3XR, locking windage) to pull the trigger. Still very curious to hear y'alls thoughts.

S&B 3-21x50 was at SHOT and it s a very nice SFP scope designed to compete with the likes of Swarovski and Leica. Exos 3-21x50 is on S&B webpage.

P4Xi is quite good optically. I think its design lineage traces back to the first generation M scopes that were quite good. XTR3 may be better, but we will not know until it comes out.

Both of the 4-16x ATACRs are nice scope and locking turret is a nice touch. They are heavy, though and I am not crazy about reticle selection.

Polar T96 and Blaser are probably the only high end hunting scopes right now with FFP reticles.

March 3-24x is a very nice little scope, but I really prefer something with more depth of field for using in the field.

ILya

 

[Diver160651]

P4Xi is quite good optically. I think its design lineage traces back to the first generation M scopes that were quite good. XTR3 may be better, but we will not know until it comes out.

Both of the 4-16x ATACRs are nice scope and locking turret is a nice touch. They are heavy, though and I am not crazy about reticle selection.

Maybe I am lame - but when the OP mentions FOV or someone wants a 2, 3 or 4x powered hunting optic, I also assume they are looking at the lower magnification for the larger FOV over an entire host of available 5-25 optics that provide FOV in the 25'/100y range. Of course when they want a light FFP the choices start dwindling.

Not sure how the NF 4-16 or LRHS 3.5-18s keeps popping up with their limited 26'/100 FOV, or a PX4i with only 27' and similar scopes with low magnification, low FOV offerings, keep getting tossed into the ring. As mentioned even a cheap 3-15 like the genII viper is going to offer almost 2x the FOV @41 with some of the other scopes in more pricey entries, even greater.

40' + offerings in the 3-15 range
Minox - heavy
Meopta Meostars - 22oz but love to see the new 2019 stuff
S&B US 3-20 - heavy
TT3-18 - heavy
March 24oz
Vortex 3-15 28oz
Burris XTRII 36' but the maybe over 40' - heavy

I get that FOV isn't everything, but on a low power optic, not a long range hunter, it should be at the top of the list. It is a lot harder finding an animal on the huff especially inside 200 yards fast looking through a straw.

Just tossing this out for a reality check..

There really is a huge hole for light weight, large FOV, FFP hunting scopes with reticles and turrets that mirror our match guns where many of us spend thousands and thousand of rounds annually.. It would be nice not to have to use another system - but also save some weight.

 

[heavy65]

Ilya, S&B was teasing the 3x21-50 as a hunting/competition scope last year, hence my confusion. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of "competition" in the reticle department.. Interesting on the P4Xi, are the illumination controls any good for low light though?

Diver, I think you expressed my preference more clearly than I did. Lightweight and high FOV characteristic of a hunting scope, but with an illuminated FFP with good dialing and rets of a target scope. So, a TT315M lol. Or maybe the PST Gen II 3-15x44, but at x44 will it be competitive in low light with the 50/56mm options? Hard for a scrub like me to know.

A big part of the problem is being able to assess FOV properly, it makes it very difficult when manufacturer specs switch between imperial and metric without also at least providing angular measurements. And I don't think FOV goes up linearly with magnification, so trying to equalize them at a theoterical common magnification by 10x doesn't necessarily hold true, but that's what I try to do anyway in a spreadsheet to try and compare apples to apples. If anyone has any advice on how to best make apples to apples FOV comparisons I'm all ears.

Just to illustrate this difficulty, both the NF 4-16x42 and x50 are listed as having 26.9ft/100yds, but that doesn't seem like it should be accurate (e.g. where did you get 23'? Is that the correct value for the x42?). Maybe it is though. Now, if you dialed a PST Gen II up to 4x what would the FOV be compared to the NF at 4x? Since I believe that FOV is directly related to low light brightness (I could be totally wrong about this) that would be an interesting thing to know. These are the things that make my ballistic autism flare up and go round and round in circles trying to come to a decision.

 

[ThePretzel]

I have no experience with TT, so I would not know. They are definitely on my radar. I have not had a scope yet at which I have not accidently spun one click or multiple clicks from bouncing in my truck seat or slinging on (especially with heavy winter clothing). Then in the dark of night my OCD keeps asking me if my turrets are spun. Exception being my lockable or capped turret scopes.

Let me put it this way, about the TT turrets and the fact that they won't move.

I drive a car not particularly suitable for ventures off pavement that was already not too forgiving and has a lowered and stiffened suspension setup for the track. When traveling to matches I usually just have my rifle either in a soft case in the passengers seat or tucked in the crack between the passenger's seat and the console. These same matches usually are down pretty heavily washboarded roads that bounce the crap out of me on the way down.

I have never once had the turrets on a TT turn on me during the time I was using the TT525P (bigger turrets, more likely to catch, etc.). I've bumped them into barricades, handled the gun with heavy gloves on, and even accidentally dropped the rifle once. I also know that the zero stop is always 6 tenths below my zero and is rock solid, so if I had any concerns I could spin it all the way down before going back up 6 clicks. The clicks are distinct while being easy enough to adjust that even with gloves on I'd be confident in my ability to make 6 clicks time and time again (my current S&B with the LP turrets I'm not so certain about).

 

[B-P-UU]

But he did say FOV was a priority-

Yeah, my point was the GEN II XR is so thin at 3x, you'll be at 5-7x anyways unless you want a duplex making the FOV argument less important.

The ATACR is more pronounced at 4x.
Website says 26.9 ft @ 100 yds for FOV.

If I'm on a set or something, I'm usually around 6x so I could use the reticle if needed.

 

[Diver160651]

I had a typo, it should have been 23 for the LHRS or 27' or the other two and I am just using the first number. now fixed..

But either way, it is a straw for a low mag scope..

The real question for you is why do you want 4x over 10x, so you can't see the animal as much? Of course I am being dramatic, but you're looking for a larger FOV correct, not just to make the animal smaller? So why would 4x, be better than 3x the image itself is almost exactly the same, if one only offered 27' and the other offered 41'?

BTW animals/targets will always appear larger on a lower FOV scope at the same magnification, just how our brain seems to work.

BTW if you just TIMES the FOV Meters@100M X 3; you get really close to feet at 100yards or you can do the long accurate math.

Meter FOV * 3.28084 = feet at 100M
FOV feet @ 100M * 0.9144 = FOV @ 100 Yards


Edited to add an example of the easy 3x math for converting FOV

Here is the spec for a Minox ZP5 5-25
Field of view low power
7.6 m / 100 m

7.6m x 3 = 22.8' FOV estimate at 100 yards

More accuare math
7.6m * 3.28084 = 24.934384' @ 100 METERS
or
24.934384' * .9144 = 22.800000007@ 100 yards

 

[kingston]

I don’t think you mentioned LA or SA, but on a LA the TT315M can get a little crowded, particularly on an extended rail. This can be an issue with any of the shorter optics and more so, if keeping the optic mounted as low as possible is a priority. Further, the TT315M’s design positions erector assemblies toward the front half of the of the main tube.

 

[heavy65]

Meter FOV * 3.28084 = feet at 100M
FOV feet @ 100M * 0.9144 = FOV @ 100 Yards

I have a spreadsheet set up to convert both 100yds and 100m to angular for apples to apples, so I can quickly compare how say the ATACR and PX4i both have identical 1.32° FOV at 16x, but the ATACR is 5.13° at 4x while the P4Xi is 5.25° at 4x (this might help to explain why Ilya thinks highly of this P4Xi design). I don't know what to do about comparing scopes with different magnifications though since that example demonstrates that you can't calculate FOV off of specs alone, and of course real world FOV and what the manufacturer advertises are likely totally different. The best I can do is normalize it at 10x but that is of course just a pure WAG at that point.

FOV is important to me for exactly the reasons you said, and I always think of the pizza example.. how one 18 inch pizza has more area than two 12 inch pizzas because FOV increases exponentially. So a 41' FOV is way over twice the viewable area than 27', and that isn't just useful against the soda straw effect, but I also have to believe that that much more light being let in through the objective will help the low light performance.

I don’t think you mentioned LA or SA, but on a LA the TT315M can get a little crowded, particularly on an extended rail. This can be an issue with any of the shorter optics and more so, if keeping the optic mounted as low as possible is a priority. Further, the TT315M’s design positions erector assemblies toward the front half of the of the main tube.

The SSG is a LA (rails end at receiver) but I wasn't too worried about lowest possible mounting, just raise the cheekpiece and have a little more MPBR.

 

[Glassaholic]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice, it's really appreciated. To take the recommendations listed here in turn:

1. Ilya saying lighter weight options proliferating by next Shot. That's great to hear, and I wonder, might you be including S&B's mystery 3x21-50 hunting/competition model in that category?

2. PX5i: I'd like to purchase by the fall, so I think I'd rather hold out for the XTR3 3.3-18x50 illum SCR2 than go that route. I do like the 56mm objective but am hoping the XTRIII optical quality will make up for it. Same reasoning that led me away from the Docter 2.5x15-56 as a hunting-only scope and to the TT315M in the first place. I don't know that that actually makes any sense though.

3. NF ATACR 4-16x50 F1 Mil-XT: I like the solid FOV on this in particular, which tempers the fact that it doesn't go down to 2.5-3, but I don't like that it's within an ounce and 8 bills of say a ZP5 5-25x56 MR4, which I feel is the higher magnification equivalent of the TT315M - light for its class yet with all the bells and whistles. I'd really rather the mid-range ATACR be closer to 25oz than 35oz. That's the main (only?) drawback for me.

4. S&B Polar T96: Love the idea, but at equivalent TT315M price level it would have to have a reticle option at least comparable to the Gen2XR.

5. Kahles K312i: seems to be discontinued? Same TT315M price level and reticle drawbacks as the T96, and also lacking in max magnification.

6. Minox ZP5 3-15x50: equivalent price to TT315M but equivalent weight to TT315P (for obvious reasons).

7. March 3-24x52 FML-T1: This one seems really compelling as an alternative. Even lighter than the TT315M, $500 cheaper street, ridiculously short range parallax, great magnification. Watched Frank's review and am wondering how much of a PITA that parallax knob is, and whether they've switched to using "standard" mils in the mean time, but those are minor concerns. Main drawback: relatively narrow FOV compared to the TT or ATACR, which I worry would affect low light performance. I don't know enough about the illumination in that regard either. I think if they went to a 5x/6x erector to broaden the FOV this would be an easier sell.

8. Kahles 3.5-18x50: really like this idea in SKMR3, but not enough to overlook the extra quarter pounder at same price as TT315M.

9. S&B 3-20x50 PMII Ultrashort: Thanks to the S&B and March ideas I also took a look at this amazing little guy (the S&B, not Frank, but hopefully also Frank if he gets around to making a video on it). The obvious drawback being that it is even more pricey than the TT315M, and of course closer to 35oz than 25oz. For the mag range and compactness (i.e. balance) I think that's actually ok, and to top it off it has an even better FOV than the TT315M! I also really like that S&B will do turret and reticle work on them if desired, something I don't believe TT can currently handle. That said S&B is an option I would like to let simmer, not just because of the $$, but also given the mysterious 3-21x50 they teased at Shot 2018, and to see what folks think of the new grid reticle.

10. XTRIII 3.3-18x50 SCR2: without a doubt this is the best "value" alternative on paper. I was a little disappointed that the specs for both weight and FOV from the early teases seemed to thin out once the specs were finalized. Once they add illumination this will likely be over 30oz, and the FOV is still fantastic if not the 40+ feet we were first hearing about. I am really looking forward to Ilya's assessment of the optical quality, and think it is pretty likely this is what I'll end up with by the fall.

Overall these comparisons really reveal how superb the TT315M is as an option, even while I find myself holding out on the perfect final touches on it (Gen3XR, locking windage) to pull the trigger. Still very curious to hear y'alls thoughts.

I've had two of the Premier LT 3-15's (forerunner to the TT315M) and regret selling both, they were phenomenal scopes optically, only bested by my copy of the Minox ZP5 5-25x56. If you want the best optics with great mechanics under 30oz there really is nothing better, but it is a 3-15 design and some folks want a little more. I have a buddy on the Hide who had a NF 4-16x42 who ended up buying a TT315M and he said it was a lot better for his eyes than the NF (he is in his 60's), I thought for certain this would be his scope for the rest of his days, but last year we spoke and I found out he sold it for a K318i, the reason why, he felt he was more limited on the top end than he was at the bottom and decided the 3.5-18 range was more suited to his shooting. Different strokes for different folks and that's the choice you need to make. I've also had the March and loved it for what is was, truly remarkable scope with 8x erector and amazing glass, but mechanics suffered a bit along with finicky parallax (but not as bad as some have experienced for me personally) , tight eyebox, fisheye image at 3x (optical distortion at the edges) and low depth of field, those things along with the lack of a tree reticle I like have pushed it away. I also would not hesitate to recommend the Vortex PST II 3-25x44, had one for my $1k scope review and was completely impressed with it, not many scopes under $1k offer as much value, it does have a tree ret but it's .5 mil hash. I did do tests in low light and it was very hard to distinguish between the 50's, meaning it performed very well, though as I approach the mid century mark I think my low light acuity has suffered some so YMMV.

For me, the perfect scope would be the Schmidt 3-20x50 (not the ultra short) with a MR4/Gen 3XR style reticle (I know, Schmidt came out with a new tree but it's not exciting me on paper), the non ultra short 3-20 has been my favorite scope from Schmidt, followed by the 5-20 Ultra Short - those two scopes truly gave me that WOW experience (I haven't had a 5-25 due to the tunneling and poor FOV performance on the low end), I also had the 3-20 Ultra Short but felt it struggled optically above 15x, so much so that I decided to keep the K318i instead. The Schmidt 3-27 has always intrigued me but at 3oz above my weight limit I have shied away, though I continue to hear amazing things about it, so once it gets the MSR2 treatment or if that new tree ret is better in the field than on paper...

As I mentioned, my most anticipated scope for 2019 is the Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 with SCR2i reticle, but won't probably see that particular model until summer at the earliest. I have an open invitation from Burris to come up and see it and their plant, so I think I'll schedule something when the SCR2 reticle is available as I'd really like to see that in the field.

 

[Glassaholic]

I don’t think you mentioned LA or SA, but on a LA the TT315M can get a little crowded, particularly on an extended rail. This can be an issue with any of the shorter optics and more so, if keeping the optic mounted as low as possible is a priority. Further, the TT315M’s design positions erector assemblies toward the front half of the of the main tube.

You and I have similar tastes kingston Love Manners EH1 and PROOF Research CF barrels I also have the K318i on one of mine right now, just got some ERA-TAC QD rings (not mount, but just the rings) to play around with swapping on my 10/22 rig, usually not a fan of swapping but I'm always tinkering so what the heck

 

[kingston]

You and I have similar tastes kingston Love Manners EH1 and PROOF Research CF barrels I also have the K318i on one of mine right now, just got some ERA-TAC QD rings (not mount, but just the rings) to play around with swapping on my 10/22 rig, usually not a fan of swapping but I'm always tinkering so what the heck

That’s a K525i LW MSR2/Ki, but yes we do have similar tastes. I enjoy reading your posts. Grin.

 

[Diver160651]

I just used a Swaro 65mm ATS that has 108ft @ 20X; 60ft @ 60X @ 60x it was really dark - I then switched back and forth using a guys razor HD 65mm that had 138ft - 75ft and I could NOT believe how much brighter it seemed. Not only that, it was so much faster finding spots. I hated it, I wanted the Swaro to not be bested, I ordered a the razor with the wider angle eye piece.. Anyway, heavy65, I think you are correct about more light.. but a lot of factors are at play I am sure. The Swaro/Razor comparison does not seem be true when one steps up to the 85mm spotters, but I no longer use an 85, it is just to big to deal with..

I am really hoping to see the new Meotpa that comes with mil based stuff in FFP they are so light and have very generous FOVs.

Off topic - I'm with kingston and wjm308 and love my K525i on my main match rifle; but use the RSW cause I am shooting left handed now.. long story

Hope to put one on my pig gun with 22" proof. Have a longer range 7 with another proof. Truth be told, they are about 1 pound heaver than a 2lbs Bartlein, and another 1lbs for the cheek riser; but they really hold their zero for load work ups, practicing or even a field match.

 

[patriot07]

Personally I've been really impressed with the 4-16 ATACR, but I'm not sure if it fits your weight requirements.

 

[kingston]

I just used a Swaro 65mm ATS that has 108ft @ 20X; 60ft @ 60X @ 60x it was really dark - I then switched back and forth using a guys razor HD 65mm that had 138ft - 75ft and I could NOT believe how much brighter it seemed. Not only that, it was so much faster finding spots. I hated it, I wanted the Swaro to not be bested, I ordered a the razor with the wider angle eye piece.. Anyway, heavy65, I think you are correct about more light.. but a lot of factors are at play I am sure.

This might not be true when on steps up to the 85mm spotters, but I no longer use an 85, it is just to big to deal with..

I am really hoping to see the new Meotpa that comes with mil based stuff in FFP they are so light and have very generous FOVs.

Off topic - I'm with kingston and wjm308 and love my K525i on my main match rifle; but use the RSW cause I am shooting left handed now.. long story

Hope to put one on my pig gun with 22" proof. Have a longer range 7 with another proof. Truth be told, they are about 1 pound heaver than a 2lbs Bartlein, and another 1lbs for the cheek riser; but the really hold their zero for load work ups, practicing or even a field match.
View attachment 7013429

That’s some gorgeous scenery!

 

[Glassaholic]

That’s a K525i LW MSR2/Ki, but yes we do have similar tastes. I enjoy reading your posts. Grin.

Well dang, now that I look at it I do see the dimensions are a bit different from my K318i, man the K525i looks short on that rifle!

 

[Glassaholic]

I just used a Swaro 65mm ATS that has 108ft @ 20X; 60ft @ 60X @ 60x it was really dark - I then switched back and forth using a guys razor HD 65mm that had 138ft - 75ft and I could NOT believe how much brighter it seemed. Not only that, it was so much faster finding spots. I hated it, I wanted the Swaro to not be bested, I ordered a the razor with the wider angle eye piece.. Anyway, heavy65, I think you are correct about more light.. but a lot of factors are at play I am sure. The Swaro/Razor comparison does not seem be true when one steps up to the 85mm spotters, but I no longer use an 85, it is just to big to deal with..

I am really hoping to see the new Meotpa that comes with mil based stuff in FFP they are so light and have very generous FOVs.

Off topic - I'm with kingston and wjm308 and love my K525i on my main match rifle; but use the RSW cause I am shooting left handed now.. long story

Hope to put one on my pig gun with 22" proof. Have a longer range 7 with another proof. Truth be told, they are about 1 pound heaver than a 2lbs Bartlein, and another 1lbs for the cheek riser; but the really hold their zero for load work ups, practicing or even a field match.
View attachment 7013429

Nice pig and nice rifle! I am getting tired of Kolorado politics and would consider moving to Texas just so I can shoot pigs

 

[heavy65]

...The Schmidt 3-27 has always intrigued me but at 3oz above my weight limit I have shied away, though I continue to hear amazing things about it, so once it gets the MSR2 treatment or if that new tree ret is better in the field than on paper...

As I mentioned, my most anticipated scope for 2019 is the Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 with SCR2i reticle, but won't probably see that particular model until summer at the earliest. I have an open invitation from Burris to come up and see it and their plant, so I think I'll schedule something when the SCR2 reticle is available as I'd really like to see that in the field.

It's such a privilege to be able to get this caliber of detailed advice these days, when I think back to ~10 years ago and how my buddy and I settled on a pretty decent Sightron out of pure luck and many months of "researching" rumors... so thanks again for everyone's help.

It seems that weight is the hard limit and putting 3x and 25x+ together into the same design (duh). To have both today you really have to have two scopes, in my case the ideal perfect combo being the TT315M Gen3XR and ZP5 5-25x MR4. That's why I'm less concerned than your buddy with getting higher end magnification out of a scope that starts with 3x.. if I wanted that I'd mount a scope starting with 5x. And all things being equal the smaller one will always have the weight advantage, so this may never change. Or ten years from now we may be bitching about 2.8-28x designs that don't come in at 25oz and $2k with built in LRF.

But I tend to agree strongly with Diver about FOV and weight, which is why the ZP5 5-25 with its excellent FOV AND weight tend to push a lot of heavier midrange designs right out of the running, e.g. I think in my case with the ATACR.

If the XTRIII SCR2i wouldn't exist then I think the PST Gen II EBR-2C would be a shoo-in for an "interim" scope that would later very easily find a very happy home on an AR. But I do have until this fall to make a decision, so I am really looking forward to the hopefully inevitable side by side comparisons of the two.

I just used a Swaro 65mm ATS that has 108ft @ 20X; 60ft @ 60X @ 60x it was really dark - I then switched back and forth using a guys razor HD 65mm that had 138ft - 75ft and I could NOT believe how much brighter it seemed. Not only that, it was so much faster finding spots. I hated it, I wanted the Swaro to not be bested, I ordered a the razor with the wider angle eye piece.. Anyway, heavy65, I think you are correct about more light.. but a lot of factors are at play I am sure. The Swaro/Razor comparison does not seem be true when one steps up to the 85mm spotters, but I no longer use an 85, it is just to big to deal with..

This is why I'm so curious about how the XTRIII with its smaller nominal FOV and larger objective shakes out in the real world compared to the Vortex. I hope the first thing everyone does with it is a side-by-side with the PST Gen II. If it's as good or better then it could truly be the "interim value" one to beat; the extra oz being perhaps an acceptable tradeoff for the extra magnification.

 

[Diver160651]

Nice pig and nice rifle! I am getting tired of Kolorado politics and would consider moving to Texas just so I can shoot pigs

Sad truth is, the pig was shot in California... But he is back at UW. I hear ya about the CA thing.

But dang it was the best shot I've seen anywhere not in a movie ~ thing was running full steam at 450'. My son was on an RRS (no way to use a bipod) and tracking. I really didn't want or expect him to shoot. I've missed more than my share of movers in a match where I even had time to count the path across my subtensions. To me, it didn't make sense to shoot.

He shot and that little 120gr 6.5 stoned it. It seemed to explode into a summersault at one point completely in the air due to the momentum.. I was on glass and it took me a minute to process what happened. I shot a pig earlier in the day again with the 120gr at only 250, but it just tipped over.. Usually, they just don't, even with a blown hart they can run some distance.

 

[Diver160651]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/new-meopta-scope-optika6.6922349/#post-7497281

Not to kill the thread but check out the link above. I have used some Meopta glass on a buddies scope but it was SFP -- the FOV was great and the image really really nice.. it was a bit light and weird on feature set.. Think less PRS, more hunting... but it looks like they might be blending the two.

I am standing by to try the 3-18
https://www.meoptasportsoptics.com/us/rada/optika-6-13153-2/

Unfortunately the new cheaper line does NOT have the amazing 45' FOV of the MeoStar 2.5-15-56 I shot

 

[Glassaholic]

Sad truth is, the pig was shot in California... But he is back at UW. I hear ya about the CA thing.

But dang it was the best shot I've seen anywhere not in a movie ~ thing was running full steam at 450'. My son was on an RRS (no way to use a bipod) and tracking. I really didn't want or expect him to shoot. I've missed more than my share of movers in a match where I even had time to count the path across my subtensions. To me, it didn't make sense to shoot.

He shot and that little 120gr 6.5 stoned it. It seemed to explode into a summersault at one point completely in the air due to the momentum.. I was on glass and it took me a minute to process what happened. I shot a pig earlier in the day again with the 120gr at only 250, but it just tipped over.. Usually, they just don't, even with a blown hart they can run some distance.

That looked like California terrain similar to where I've seen Covertnoob shoot. Texas apparently has way too many pigs which is part of why I'd like to go there I've been hoping the pigs would migrate to Colorado but it must be too cold up here for them As for your son taking that shot, I'm sure part of it was adrenaline, but a great story and shot!

Heavy65 - I think many of us are waiting for the Burris XTR III to make it into some competent shooters hands for a decent review, of course, D_TROS has already shot with it and gives it very high accolades but he has a pre-production model so we all wait for those production units, but sounds like it's going to at least compete with the Bushnell XRS II and DMR II Pro but with much better FOV and IMHO a better reticle in the SCR2 (and lighter). Heck, I'm even interested in the 5.5-30x56 with it's wide FOV that seems better than many 5-25's out there.

Also, in regard to the specs coming down a bit, keep in mind early on we did not have anything concrete, birddog shared some information based on what he was given and who knows what was said, it still has very impressive specs even if it's not completely what we were hoping based on early comments.