Tuners in question ?

[iceng]

Why not make a full over barrel tube, sealed at both ends, fill with fluid, and have a fill port so you can increase pressure in the tube.

Maybe dont have fluid, but have the muzzle thread act as a tensioner. Tune via that way. Maybe have it so you can lightly compress the barrel, maybe a structured barrel with various cuts and extra holes in it.

Maybe a combination of all of it.

Maybe all this has been done years ago and a muzzle tuner is the "cheap simple KISS" method.

 

[obx22]

Why not make a full over barrel tube, sealed at both ends, fill with fluid, and have a fill port so you can increase pressure in the tube.

Maybe dont have fluid, but have the muzzle thread act as a tensioner. Tune via that way. Maybe have it so you can lightly compress the barrel, maybe a structured barrel with various cuts and extra holes in it.

Maybe a combination of all of it.

Maybe all this has been done years ago and a muzzle tuner is the "cheap simple KISS" method.

Hmmm, like minded, and coming from a past that included home theater/auto sound design over two decades ago I was proposing just such ideas (having read of a water jacket cooled Varmint rifle in high round use in the desert). Wrapping barrels, spraying barrel exteriors with resonance reducing synthetics, on and on the discussions and ideas went. The “deadening effects of wood vs laminates vs synthetics (alloy chassis were in the future). Some tuners had external add-on weights, and I recall one of the first hex fluted barrels I saw had some of the recesses filled with a synthetic compound to “tune” the barrel. Not to say “it’s all been thought of or done before”, some of us could only afford to share ideas back then. I think now we are coming into an era where tractable weather conditions and their effects on accuracy are so much easier to document. Temps effect synthetics AND metals in sometimes unpredictable ways, sometimes it’s NOT YOU having a bad day, it’s the gun/ammo combo. I get joked for bringing an arsenal to plinking days, but I like to switch over to what seems to be performing the best. Could be me, but it could be the guns.

 

[timintx]

i think this is the core of the issue

we need to define what we are really looking for

its seems (if they work or dont):

that tuners arenot a one size fits all solution

shooter needs to really know his rifle and load


the idea of thinking that anyone can buy 1 of 4 size /style tuners will never happen

but buying the exact tuner designed (i would think from a pile of interchangeable parts) for your specific rifle/barrel/profile is a possibility

if we all agree on that then the tuner threads move in a different direction

if the thought is that 1 tuner rules them all, then we just go in circles

??

Why not make a full over barrel tube, sealed at both ends, fill with fluid, and have a fill port so you can increase pressure in the tube.

Maybe dont have fluid, but have the muzzle thread act as a tensioner. Tune via that way. Maybe have it so you can lightly compress the barrel, maybe a structured barrel with various cuts and extra holes in it.

Maybe a combination of all of it.

Maybe all this has been done years ago and a muzzle tuner is the "cheap simple KISS" method.

Been done for years in 1000 yard Benchrest , liquid filled tensioned barrels were used with some success by a guy name Joel Pendergragh who set a world record with his. But in the end the group was still dependent on velocity variance .

timintx

 

[brianf]

Been done for years in 1000 yard Benchrest , liquid filled tensioned barrels were used with some success by a guy name Joel Pendergragh who set a world record with his. But in the end the group was still dependent on velocity variance .

timintx

im quoted but noting you typed is focused forward me lol

in your opinion tuners need to be customized for the particular barrel, cal, etc? Y/N

 

[timintx]

im quoted but noting you typed is focused forward me lol

in your opinion tuners need to be customized for the particular barrel, cal, etc? Y/N

It depends , yes and no . The particular pattern is produced by the weight , and the movable weight will speed that pattern up and slow it down . If you want it optimized you must take the weight in to account . Every gun is different so that is a tough call . But what Mark stated is the best solution I think or make a multiple weight system with the tuner. And most tuner guys already take this in to account somewhat , but little is truly understood by most tuner guys with respect to differing weights and what they do . I check the pattern by graphing with the differing weight so I know what I am adjusting ,no one else does that I know of. Not saying they are doing it wrong , just differently. Certain weights will produce a flat line at 100 yards with multiple powder charges . If I am shooting inside of 800 yards that is the pattern I would want . And a 100 yards group should be perfect even with multiple charges or large velocity variance . For long and extreme range the patterns are highly specialized and require specific weighting for positive compensation to show up . That is not easy and took years to figure out . So don’t expect your gun to do what mine do but you can expect a reduction in the downswing which helps tremendously.

timintx

 

[Frank Green]

Been done for years in 1000 yard Benchrest , liquid filled tensioned barrels were used with some success by a guy name Joel Pendergragh who set a world record with his. But in the end the group was still dependent on velocity variance .

timintx

Tension barrels have been done and tried but I'll say it works against you more often then not.

 

[brianf]

It depends , yes and no . The particular pattern is produced by the weight , and the movable weight will speed that pattern up and slow it down . If you want it optimized you must take the weight in to account . Every gun is different so that is a tough call . But what Mark stated is the best solution I think or make a multiple weight system with the tuner. And most tuner guys already take this in to account somewhat , but little is truly understood by most tuner guys with respect to differing weights and what they do . I check the pattern by graphing with the differing weight so I know what I am adjusting ,no one else does that I know of. Not saying they are doing it wrong , just differently. Certain weights will produce a flat line at 100 yards with multiple powder charges . If I am shooting inside of 800 yards that is the pattern I would want . And a 100 yards group should be perfect even with multiple charges or large velocity variance . For long and extreme range the patterns are highly specialized and require specific weighting for positive compensation to show up . That is not easy and took years to figure out . So don’t expect your gun to do what mine do but you can expect a reduction in the downswing which helps tremendously.

timintx

thats what i was thinking

so in reality, in your reality if a company doesnt have multiple options/components your possibly wasting your time as the correct combination might not be available

 

[Frank Green]

Side question.

Do rail guns really need to use the barrel block/clamp configuration for best accuracy or is it just easier /better to mate surfaces on a cylinder 360 degrees and such

so it just so happens that barrel clamps are the most accurate but also the most accurate.

Kind of a self filled prophecy etc

Thanks.

This is coming from Mark here and myself. Mark has tuners on his BR bag guns but no tuners on his rail guns. Most guys don't run tuners on the rail guns because of the weight of the barrel/rail gun the tuner would have to be so big and heavy is the issue.

A rail gun isn't necessarily more accurate than a bag/bench gun. Due to the weight of the rail gun and how they track your taking more and more of the human element out of the equation. It will help you for the longer strings of fire as well. In the unlimited class your shooting 10 shot groups where with the bench/bag guns your shooting 5 shot groups.

A tuner is best described this way (this is coming from Mark and I agree with him)... a tuner will not make the barrel shoot any better accuracy wise. That's in the barrel itself. A tuner will help by putting a weight on the end of the barrel give you a wider tune window as conditions change thru out the day. Some guys once they find that sweet spot on the tuner will lock it up. If something changes then they go back to the tweaking the load. Larry Baggett called it a dampener. It gives you a longer dewell time at the top and bottom of the vibratory whip of the barrel.

Below is Marks target he set the unlimited class world record for 10 shots at a 100 yards. The record still stands now since he fired it like 5 or 6 years ago.

Below is his rail gun.

So again I feel and I've said this before... a good barrel is a good barrel. You don't get around that. A crappy barrel is a crappy barrel. A tuner won't make the crappy barrel a better performer. So the vast majority of the time I'm against a tuner. Why? One less thing for me to mess around with. That's my opinion.

Later, Frank

 

[timintx]

thats what i was thinking

so in reality, in your reality if a company doesnt have multiple options/components your possibly wasting your time as the correct combination might not be available

I am not quite saying that , what I am saying is that if it is not the optimum weight you are simply adjusting a different pattern so it is not as obvious as to the change but never the less it will change it regardless of the weight .you may just need to turn the movable weight a lot compared to a little to get it to shoot .

timintx

 

[6.5SH]

Tension barrels have been done and tried but I'll say it works against you more often then not.

There was even a tension tuner in the late 80's. The "AR Accurizer" by Mickey Finn.

 

[badassgunworks]

Tension barrels have been done and tried but I'll say it works against you more often then not.

You are a 100% correct

 

[iceng]

Below is Marks target he set the unlimited class world record for 10 shots at a 100 yards. The record still stands now since he fired it like 5 or 6 years ago.

View attachment 7994249

Ill make a point that the barrel clamp, and where you lock it down onto the barrel, acts as a tuner in its own right. That alone would chance things is he was to remove it.
Theres no need for a muzzle tuner, as its been engineered into it.

 

[badassgunworks]

I am not quite saying that , what I am saying is that if it is not the optimum weight you are simply adjusting a different pattern so it is not as obvious as to the change but never the less it will change it regardless of the weight .you may just need to turn the movable weight a lot compared to a little to get it to shoot .

timintx

The further back from the crown the more weight you need. best optomized option is not several weight sizes but custom built for every application. Having the center of tuner centered directly above the crown is optimum. And more responsive.

 

[obx22]

Ill make a point that the barrel clamp, and where you lock it down onto the barrel, acts as a tuner in its own right. That alone would chance things is he was to remove it.
Theres no need for a muzzle tuner, as its been engineered into it.

Having a mid clamped barrel effectively shortens the “free” area of the barrel which has the chance to vibrate. A similar situation occurs shooting the old 40X prone rimfires which have two tuning screws at the forend tip and click adjust in to apply varying amounts of force to the barrel, or can be backed off to free float. They make a huge impact on group size.

 

[Mark Buettgen]

Ill make a point that the barrel clamp, and where you lock it down onto the barrel, acts as a tuner in its own right. That alone would chance things is he was to remove it.
Theres no need for a muzzle tuner, as its been engineered into it.

Well, you're partly correct. First I tune the the barrel with just enough torque to make sure the barrel won't slide in the block. Then using that load, I'll tune the block to optimize. However any weight added to the barrel anywhere forward of the block will change it, which proves that they will respond to a tuner as they still vibrate. It's just a matter of how much weight you'll need on a 1.450" barrel that is only 14" to 18" long.
There are several other holding systems that will react differently, the Delrin sleeves and the type that the receivers are held in the blocks and the barrel is left to float all the way from the receiver face. All will respond to a muzzle devise in some manner.
Later, Mark

 

[Frank Green]

Ill make a point that the barrel clamp, and where you lock it down onto the barrel, acts as a tuner in its own right. That alone would chance things is he was to remove it.
Theres no need for a muzzle tuner, as its been engineered into it.

Mark starts tighten the bolts on the barrel block to 40 inch pounds. He will go up in increments of 5 until he gets his smallest groups for vertical. Then he stops. He has gone up to 70 inch pounds but doesn't like going that high.

They've noticed on a 1.450" o.d. barrel in 6mm.....you get to 100 inch pounds or just before on that torque setting on the bolts and you start distorting the bore of the barrel!

 

[obx22]

Mark starts tighten the bolts on the barrel block to 40 inch pounds. He will go up in increments of 5 until he gets his smallest groups for vertical. Then he stops. He has gone up to 70 inch pounds but doesn't like going that high.

They've noticed on a 1.450" o.d. barrel in 6mm.....you get to 100 inch pounds or just before on that torque setting on the bolts and you start distorting the bore of the barrel!

I’m sure that if properly slugged, you will find that distortion occurs at lower torque as well.
Now think of this, you’ve torqued, then fired. Does the steel respond as though with a restricted bore?
Once said torque is removed after firing, and reslugged, does the bore now exhibit an expanded area where this block was located?

 

[badassgunworks]

I’m sure that if properly slugged, you will find that distortion occurs at lower torque as well.
Now think of this, you’ve torqued, then fired. Does the steel respond as though with a restricted bore?
Once said torque is removed after firing, and reslugged, does the bore now exhibit an expanded area where this block was located?

The barrel block has a large surface displacement and we'll handle Lots of surface torque before it starts to cause any kind of restriction changes. If the block is over torque it can have negative side effects. You don't want any more than what is needed to hold adequately Barrel blocks used on standard chassis and stocks are no more than a stabilization block for a long barrel and our seldom under any kind of stress whatsoever that is a little bit different than what is used on railguns as a mounting point to hold the barrel and

 

[Frank Green]

I’m sure that if properly slugged, you will find that distortion occurs at lower torque as well.
Now think of this, you’ve torqued, then fired. Does the steel respond as though with a restricted bore?
Once said torque is removed after firing, and reslugged, does the bore now exhibit an expanded area where this block was located?

slugging...don't even go there. There is no way your going to feel a .0001" or .0002" difference if the bore did change.

 

[Frank Green]

If the bore did change it will go back when you loosen up the block.

I see the same thing with muzzle brakes that are screwed on to tight, flash hiders and even the castle nut on a M14 barrel. You can tighten these down to tight and constrict/distort the bore. Take them off and the bore goes back.

This is different than from say a button rifled barrels bore going sour from machine work….when that happens the bore typically opens up and when that happens you can not make it go back.

 

[MarkyMark007]

LEDZEP involved?

 

[timintx]

I see a few problems in that testing .
Do not expect any kind of accuracy change when shooting on a rubber bench or a rubber footed bipod . Sand bags must be used on a concrete bench for any reasonable tests .Solidity is paramount . If the baseline group is not tight , that indicates the gun is not capable of accuracy that the tuner will correct . So why would anyone expect the tuner to help ? Also if the tuner is making the groups worse , that is a good thing showing it effects the gun . But if it does not get better move the tuner big , then move small , if it is still bad then do not blame the tuner . Bryan Litz says adding weight helps accuracy yet you have people saying the gun shot worse with the tuner so adding weight does not help accuracy all of the time but moving the weight will get you there regardless of the weight. Sometimes you just can not polish a turd so don’t expect tuners to do it either.

timintx

 

[kthomas]

I see a few problems in that testing .
Do not expect any kind of accuracy change when shooting on a rubber bench or a rubber footed bipod . Sand bags must be used on a concrete bench for any reasonable tests .Solidity is paramount . If the baseline group is not tight , that indicates the gun is not capable of accuracy that the tuner will correct . So why would anyone expect the tuner to help ? Also if the tuner is making the groups worse , that is a good thing showing it effects the gun . But if it does not get better move the tuner big , not small , if it is still bad then do not blame the tuner . Bryan Litz says adding weight helps accuracy yet you have people saying the gun shot worse with the tuner so adding weight does not help accuracy all of the time but moving the weight will get you there .Sometimes you just can not polish a turd .

timintx

And if the benefit of tuners is so marginal that it requires BR techniques to see them, is there really any benefit to tuners for those shooting from bipods and rear bags (I.E. PRS and adjacent disciplines)?

 

[Frank Green]

And if the benefit of tuners is so marginal that it requires BR techniques to see them, is there really any benefit to tuners for those shooting from bipods and rear bags (I.E. PRS and adjacent disciplines)?

From my post #109....

A tuner won't make the crappy barrel a better performer. So the vast majority of the time I'm against a tuner. Why? One less thing for me to mess around with. That's my opinion.

Again if it's a good barrel a tuner doesn't make a good barrel better overall in the accuracy dept.

Not saying there isn't a possible benefit from them....but I myself don't see a need for one. You bring up a good point about PRS and some other shooting disciplines...what's the end result that you are trying to achieve? Is a 1/3moa gun better with a tuner on it that you can lets say get down to a 1/4moa gun and or make the gun shoot a tad more consistently? Will that little difference help you win the match?

 

[timintx]

And if the benefit of tuners is so marginal that it requires BR techniques to see them, is there really any benefit to tuners for those shooting from bipods and rear bags (I.E. PRS and adjacent disciplines)?

Not marginal if you are testing correctly.testing on bags should always be done period. eliminating variables to test is the key . Shooting groups should not have stacked up variables to get a baseline group. Would you test any gun on rubber? Or with a bad barrel ? Crappy groups ? Why are they mediocre?. Just because it is a conglomerate of parts that are of good name brands does not mean the gun will shoot . That must be determined first and then blame the tuner , not before. Then when you shoot on your bipods, bags , self supporting the rear on roof , tire or whatever then that is on you .

timintx

 

[timintx]

From my post #109....

A tuner won't make the crappy barrel a better performer. So the vast majority of the time I'm against a tuner. Why? One less thing for me to mess around with. That's my opinion.

Again if it's a good barrel a tuner doesn't make a good barrel better overall in the accuracy dept.

Not saying there isn't a possible benefit from them....but I myself don't see a need for one. You bring up a good point about PRS and some other shooting disciplines...what's the end result that you are trying to achieve? Is a 1/3moa gun better with a tuner on it that you can lets say get down to a 1/4moa gun and or make the gun shoot a tad more consistently? Will that little difference help you win the match?

It can absolutely help you win or place better in a match , and has many times in my past .

timintx

 

[brianf]

this should get interesting

i need the popcorn chewing deer meme lol

 

[timintx]

this should get interesting

i need the popcorn chewing deer meme lol

Your in the ELR forum now . Where even the smallest change can make a difference . We start at 1500 and can go to 4200 yards at times so it all makes a difference .

timintx

 

[badassgunworks]

Here's the issue of tuners. People doing shitty test to prove they don't work for monetary gain. People building tuners that don't know what the hell they're doing for monetary gain. People using tuners that don't know what the hell they're doing expecting magical results. And people using tuners that DO know what they're doing and how to use them . and all the above becomes white noise. The whole tuner topic has become extremely convoluted random so-called experts just stir the pot. When they know nothing about quality rifle building much less quality load devlopment .Last but not least so-called Precision experts, PRS shooters make things worse. There is an old saying garbage in garbage out. this is what we see in the random bullshit tests that are performed this is the industry we live in. The vast majority of the industry have very little understanding of internal ballistics including a large percentage of self-proclaimed experts

 

[kthomas]

Here's the issue of tuners people doing shitty test to prove they don't work for monetary gain. People building tuners that don't know what the hell they're doing for monetary gain. People using tuners that don't know what the hell they're doing expecting magical results. And people using tuners that do know what they're doing and all the above becomes white noise. The whole tuner topic has become extremely convoluted random so-called experts just stir the pot. Last but not least so-called Precision experts, PRS shooters make things worse. There is an old saying garbage in garbage out. this is what we see in the random bullshit tests that are performed this is the industry we live in. The vast majority of the industry have very little understanding of internal ballistics including a large percentage of self-proclaimed

Definitely garbage in garbage out.

I've yet to see any "data" from tuners that isn't just dressed up garbage.

 

[brianf]

Definitely garbage in garbage out.

I've yet to see any "data" from tuners that isn't just dressed up garbage.

looking at it from a different direction, i think that is the issue in general

we see some good testing protocols and some idiotic testing protocols about tuners (firearms, precision, accuracy in general)

but we have yet to see definitive testing

i think if someone had some actual real data coupled with a video that would stop a lot of the back and forth



in my lab/QC when we create a "method" for testing raw materials or potency post production

the originator of the method has to do it 3 times with the same outcome

then that same method is given to 2 different techs utilizing different but similar equipment

once it passes all phases then it can be used for production or release of raw material...if not the FDA sticks their dick in your ass

 

[kthomas]

looking at it from a different direction, i think that is the issue in general

we see some good testing protocols and some idiotic testing protocols about tuners (firearms, precision, accuracy in general)

but we have yet to see definitive testing

i think if someone had some actual real data coupled with a video that would stop a lot of the back and forth



in my lab/QC when we create a "method" for testing raw materials or potency post production

the originator of the method has to do it 3 times with the same outcome

then that same method is given to 2 different techs utilizing different but similar equipment

once it passes all phases then it can be used for production or release of raw material...if not the FDA sticks their dick in your ass

I thought 2 shot groups was the accepted standard as definitive tuner testing

 

[kthomas]

But in all seriousness, you are right.

There needs to be better testing performed before any discussions of tuners and their merits (or perhaps lack thereof), can be constructive.

Right now its a lot of noise and "he said, she said" anecdotal boloney.

 

[badassgunworks]

Definitely garbage in garbage out.

I've yet to see any "data" from tuners that isn't just dressed up garbage.

Likewise I have not seen any real testing that proves that they don't work either that was not biased or done properly. Likewise if we swallow the bias testing of so-called self-proclaimed experts stating that they don't work we ignore the point of why I made this post. Real experts in the field of Marksmanship that use them and have for many years in bench rest and F class. My point is every bit as valid. This industry has a lot of Anthony Fauci experts .

 

[Frank Green]

Your in the ELR forum now . Where even the smallest change can make a difference . We start at 1500 and can go to 4200 yards at times so it all makes a difference .

timintx

I'll agree with you but if you read my one post or should I say the last post....

It depends on what discipline you are shooting. Would you agree? A PRS shooter vs a BR or a ELR shooter are completely different for what your using the gun for and what you need out of it.

I've seen guys with tuners of some sort on hunting rifles. If it makes you feel better in that case and or gives you more confidence...knock yourself out but what cracks me up here is the guy is testing off the bench and zeroing his rifle but ends up shooting it offhand out in the field or from an unsupported rest.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

this should get interesting

i need the popcorn chewing deer meme lol

I'm busting a gut laughing!

 

[Frank Green]

OK seriously back to regular scheduled programming!

 

[CharlieNC]

For a rimfire, where there is no load tuning, the barrel measurements by Kolbe (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm) demonstrate positive compensation using a tuner which did little to the barrel amplitude and frequency, but primarily alters the phase shift. Essentially all successful rimfire BR shooters use a tuner to dial in the most suitable ammo.

Harold Vaughn ( Rifle Accuracy Facts ) demonstrates the TARGET can be analyzed to clearly determine the pertinent frequency associated with charge weight tuning for a centerfire rifle and this method can be used to learn the longitudinal energy waves ( not the transverse "whip" everyone talks about ) moving at the speed of sound are the basis for load tuning which means Chris Long OBT is correct, but for a different reason. Yes unmanaged recoil, poor bedding, etc can cause a problem but this is not the basis for load tuning.

 

[badassgunworks]

I'll agree with you but if you read my one post or should I say the last post....

It depends on what discipline you are shooting. Would you agree? A PRS shooter vs a BR or a ELR shooter are completely different for what your using the gun for and what you need out of it.

I've seen guys with tuners of some sort on hunting rifles. If it makes you feel better in that case and or gives you more confidence...knock yourself out but what cracks me up here is the guy is testing off the bench and zeroing his rifle but ends up shooting it offhand out in the field or from an unsupported rest.

Later, Frank

Accurate is accurate, quality loads are quality loads, quality build is a quality build, a shitty shooter is a shitty shooter, variables are variables, one thing I never did understand. A large percentage of the so-called big game Hunters believe that if I can shoot a pie plate size group at 100 yards that's all I need since the critters I shoot are never Beyond 100 yards and the vitals are larger than the pie plate I'm good. This type of reasoning in many cases is flawed

 

[timintx]

I'll agree with you but if you read my one post or should I say the last post....

It depends on what discipline you are shooting. Would you agree? A PRS shooter vs a BR or a ELR shooter are completely different for what your using the gun for and what you need out of it.

I've seen guys with tuners of some sort on hunting rifles. If it makes you feel better in that case and or gives you more confidence...knock yourself out but what cracks me up here is the guy is testing off the bench and zeroing his rifle but ends up shooting it offhand out in the field or from an unsupported rest.

Later, Frank

I agree that the disciplines are all different as are the shooters . There may be better expectations than others and I can only speak for myself when I ask myself what are the consequences of missing ? Will the temperature be what I loaded for could be 84 degrees or 26 degrees ?That is what I weigh out before the long trip to a match . For that reason the ability to change tune with preloaded ammo on the run is imperative for competition ,and to know if I get to where I am going in a unknown land in case of inclement weather that I am covered with a little extra insurance. That does makes me feel better and that just keeps my head clear for fewer mistakes . Will the PRS shooter do this ? I can not say but for any shooter they must decide how much they will do for accuracy which will certainly complement precision .

timintx

 

[MarkyMark007]

For a rimfire, where there is no load tuning, the barrel measurements by Kolbe (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm) demonstrate positive compensation using a tuner which did little to the barrel amplitude and frequency, but primarily alters the phase shift.

brian litz will pay you if you can prove positive compenzation to him. what are you waiting for?

you are waiting because it is a old newer dieing lie?

 

[CharlieNC]

I do not recall seeing this reward being offered by Litz, and am only aware of the one regarding the aspect of a bullet "going to sleep" during flight; can you direct me to this? If there is something about the work of Kolbe and Vaughn which I help you with to understand PC please let me know; people shoot charge ladder tests daily on targets and observe a " node" where the higher velocity has little to no change to point of impact ( and sometimes hits lower) in order to utilize PC.

 

[timintx]

brian litz will pay you if you can prove positive compenzation to him. what are you waiting for?

you are waiting because it is a old newer dieing lie?

You seem intent on perpetuating lies and myths to people who know better . And to say seating depth , tuning and many other things do not matter that most have been taught for years by experienced shooters is just showing you have no direct knowledge of those facts. Dr Kolbe is a world renowned author and scientist and so is Al Harral (Varmint Al) and Harold Vaughn so I have to ask, do you compete? Do you even shoot rifles ?

timintx

 

[kthomas]

This has turned so sciency! Love it.

#doyouevencompetebro #doyouevenscience
#scienceisneverwrong #tagyourfavoritescientist
#dontforgetogetyourbooster

 

[badassgunworks]

brian litz will pay you if you can prove positive compenzation to him. what are you waiting for?

you are waiting because it is a old newer dieing lie?

The only reason why litz would even consider giving someone money that could prove positive compensation would be so that he can exploit something for monetary gain that he does not understand. his entire line of business is regurgitated technology that he was not the author of.. pretty much all of your comments on this post from day one has proven your level as well

 

[ITR_98_111]

Let me ask this - what effect do different bullets (shape, weight, design) have on harmonics? What about different powder loads and velocities of said freedom pills? Seating depth?

So if I tune those things, chances are I've found an optimum harmonic and a tuner isn't going to help much? So maybe they provide more valuable for factory loads or for those who don't really optimize on the dynamics available to them during reloading??

So many questions I have....

 

[MarkyMark007]

You seem intent on perpetuating lies and myths to people who know better . And to say seating depth , tuning and many other things do not matter that most have been taught for years by experienced shooters is just showing you have no direct knowledge of those facts. Dr Kolbe is a world renowned author and scientist and so is Al Harral (Varmint Al) and Harold Vaughn so I have to ask, do you compete? Do you even shoot rifles ?

timintx

in recent years and now on, came some critical number of shooters, who are willing to test a little more than 3 shots per charge, and those shooters reveal the truth about those magic harmonics and flat spots, and are more and more loud...
and those OBJECTIVE results are not warmly accepted by retarded shooters and snake oil sellers... so I am very excited about new findings abour REAL precision of guns...

 

[timintx]

in recent years and now on, came some critical number of shooters, who are willing to test a little more than 3 shots per charge, and those shooters reveal the truth about those magic harmonics and flat spots, and are more and more loud...
and those OBJECTIVE results are not warmly accepted by retarded shooters and snake oil sellers... so I am very excited about new findings abour REAL precision of guns...

Got proof of that ? If so let’s see it .I bet I have more stating otherwise and with more than 3 shot groups .and you never answered the main question , do you even shoot ? Do you compete? Are you ranked ?

timintx

 

[CharlieNC]

in recent years and now on, came some critical number of shooters, who are willing to test a little more than 3 shots per charge, and those shooters reveal the truth about those magic harmonics and flat spots, and are more and more loud...
and those OBJECTIVE results are not warmly accepted by retarded shooters and snake oil sellers... so I am very excited about new findings abour REAL precision of guns...

It would appear you did not bother to read the resources I posted, which provide both the target and the associated barrel vibration results which you question. Have you ever shot a charge weight ladder; if so what is your interpretation? These and other definitive published studies clearly describe the mechanism of barrel vibration harmonic nodes, and therefore the the basis from which a tuner can work. The proper design and operation of a tuner is a different question, with fewer answers.

 

[timintx]

It would appear you did not bother to read the resources I posted, which provide both the target and the associated barrel vibration results which you question. Have you ever shot a charge weight ladder; if so what is your interpretation? These and other definitive published studies clearly describe the mechanism of barrel vibration harmonic nodes, and therefore the the basis from which a tuner can work. The proper design and operation of a tuner is a different question, with fewer answers.

So true , and I have to say that Dr Kolbe had come the closest to measuring the vibrations and relating the shots to the target .Good stuff.

timintx