Tuners in question ?

[badassgunworks]

Some say tuners dont work.
Keith trap 2 consecutive sw national champ. And last week . Us finals champ ftr . And he uses a tuner.

Stanley cutsforth 2022 elr season most conservative wins in elr history and took 2nd place at ko2m uses a tuner brake. Perhaps we need larger samples .

 

[Taylorbok]

 

[badassgunworks]

View attachment 7983689

Perhaps. They are just simple facts though

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

But what we don't know, is if they could have won the same championships without them.

 

[kthomas]

This in itself is not evidence that tuners "work".

By the same standard of evidence (which is extremely low), you can look at all the events that were won without tuners.

Either way, this is hardly compelling "data" to suggest in any direction that tuners "work" or not...

 

[badassgunworks]

It's not about data my post was about facts. Fact is most of the renowned shooters in F class and benchrest use tuners. Poorly accumulated data and test haven't changed these facts. And never will.

 

[kthomas]

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Some say tuners dont work.
Keith trap 2 consecutive sw national champ. And last week . Us finals champ ftr . And he uses a tuner.

Stanley cutsforth 2022 elr season most conservative wins in elr history and took 2nd place at ko2m uses a tuner brake. Perhaps we need larger samples .

A buddy of mine is a flutter engineer that usually works with high flow pipes in nuclear power plants. The idea holds up with a significant caveat. He calculated out what it would take to give a quarter wave of adjustability on his 50 and ended up with two tungsten nuts that weighed three pounds total. They could move up and down about 8 inches of threaded barrel and then be torqued together.

If you want to load to max and then tune it to be in a node then most of the products out there don't have nearly the mass or adjustment range to do it.

-Alex

 

[badassgunworks]

A buddy of mine is a flutter engineer that usually works with high flow pipes in nuclear power plants. The idea holds up with a significant caveat. He calculated out what it would take to give a quarter wave of adjustability on his 50 and ended up with two tungsten nuts that weighed three pounds total. They could move up and down about 8 inches of threaded barrel and then be torqued together.

If you want to load to max and then tune it to be in a node then most of the products out there don't have nearly the mass or adjustment range to do it.

-Alex

I'm currently not sure of anyone who just simply loads to Max load and then tries to tune it. And you are correct that it does take more weight than what the average tuner uses however especially on your smaller caliber stuff with stiffer large barrels it takes a lot more movement to actually start seeing results. However on your similar size to barrels that are way longer with larger caliber they have more influence. Especially like the ones that I currently use for ELR which are much heavier than your conventional tuners

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

I'm currently not sure of anyone who just simply loads to Max load and then tries to tune it. And you are correct that it does take more weight than what the average tuner uses however especially on your smaller caliber stuff with stiffer large barrels it takes a lot more movement to actually start seeing results. However on your similar size to barrels that are way longer with larger caliber they have more influence. Especially like the ones that I currently use for ELR which are much heavier than your conventional tuners

Yeah, I guess you could go with a pencil barrel and get a lot out of a light tuner. I'd assume that the amplitude goes up as the barrel gets thinner though. If you were just correcting one harmonic then why not but you are really averaging out a few. Would be an interesting experiment with some piezo sensors. Let me talk to Libert. Bet he'd be down to try it and measure the harmonics.

-Alex

 

[badassgunworks]

Yeah, I guess you could go with a pencil barrel and get a lot out of a light tuner. I'd assume that the amplitude goes up as the barrel gets thinner though. If you were just correcting one harmonic then why not but you are really averaging out a few. Would be an interesting experiment with some piezo sensors. Let me talk to Libert. Bet he'd be down to try it and measure the harmonics.

-Alex

The goal is improvements when you're considering everything else that you do to produce quality loads

 

[timintx]

A buddy of mine is a flutter engineer that usually works with high flow pipes in nuclear power plants. The idea holds up with a significant caveat. He calculated out what it would take to give a quarter wave of adjustability on his 50 and ended up with two tungsten nuts that weighed three pounds total. They could move up and down about 8 inches of threaded barrel and then be torqued together.

If you want to load to max and then tune it to be in a node then most of the products out there don't have nearly the mass or adjustment range to do it.

-Alex

Give me a calculated in bore time and I can calculate the weight you will need to achieve positive compensation within .3 ounces .

timintx

 

[badassgunworks]

Give me a calculated in bore time and I can calculate the weight you will need to achieve positive compensation within .3 ounces .

timintx

I have my own calculations as well
. alex is way off on his information but he is correct. Lots of tunners are not heavy enough to effectively work properly.

 

[timintx]

I agree, your problem is that weight must satisfy a number of guns in that range which is a tall order but no doubt it can be done evidenced by your tuners on all kinds of guns . Sounds like your doing something right to me. Stan has really been kicking ass this year.

timintx

 

[badassgunworks]

I agree, your problem is that weight must satisfy a number of guns in that range which is a tall order but no doubt it can be done evidenced by your tuners on all kinds of guns . Sounds like your doing something right to me. Stan has really been kicking ass this year.

timintx

I personally dont think any one has spent as much time , money and energy as you have to figure out positive compensation and what works in reguerds to tuners . And you are
Correct its very much a pain in the ass tring to meet the needs of the industry, individual builds and weight restrictions of elr. Guys build there guns close to max weight then want a tuner to work. Lots of questions must be asked to build one that works and to keep within weight limits. Some times i have to resort to moving threaded surface on tuner further foward in front of crown to make it more responsive in relation to weight ratio.

 

[iceng]

Pro tip: contour of barrel makes a difference to how a tuner works on a given setup. Not just barrel diameter or length.

 

[badassgunworks]

Pro tip: contour of barrel makes a difference to how a tuner works on a given setup. Not just barrel diameter or length.

Correct. Caliber , od , length ,shank size . Contour, type of bedding and many other factors.

 

[HerbUSMC]

Tuners absolutely work. I have an EC Tuner break that does double duty flawlessly
check them out on ultimate reloaded or on Eric Cortina’s website.

 

[MarkyMark007]

Yes, when Bryan Litz in his new book modern-advancements-long-range-shooting volume 3 find out that tuners didnt work for him like everybody are aimnimg for, he made such a stir...

all snake oil of tuner sellers are raving about how his test is bullshit, how they can find a node with 2 shots, they are experts in reading 3 shot groups, they can find velocity platoes with one shot where Bryan cant find those platoes with 10 shots, and Bryan didnt find that with only 1° of turn your gun will become world champion...

all comunity is in delirium, because Bryan didnt see that tuners work. it is just the same if i say to some retarded chatolic that there is no god... anger everywhere!

but those retarded people cant read what corelation Bryan DID find: heavier object on the muzzle produce smaller groups!

so those snake oil producers, youtube 2 shot groups experts, velocity platoes gurus only need to hange something heavy on their barrel and they will shoot smaller groups!! no stupid turns of tuners, no retarder interpreting 2 shot POI, no nice rounded 3-shot groups. just something heavy at the end of the barrel!!!

have fun retards!

 

[timintx]

Yes, when Bryan Litz in his new book modern-advancements-long-range-shooting volume 3 find out that tuners didnt work for him like everybody are aimnimg for, he made such a stir...

all snake oil of tuner sellers are raving about how his test is bullshit, how they can find a node with 2 shots, they are experts in reading 3 shot groups, they can find velocity platoes with one shot where Bryan cant find those platoes with 10 shots, and Bryan didnt find that with only 1° of turn your gun will become world champion...

all comunity is in delirium, because Bryan didnt see that tuners work. it is just the same if i say to some retarded chatolic that there is no god... anger everywhere!

but those retarded people cant read what corelation Bryan DID find: heavier object on the muzzle produce smaller groups!

so those snake oil producers, youtube 2 shot groups experts, velocity platoes gurus only need to hange something heavy on their barrel and they will shoot smaller groups!! no stupid turns of tuners, no retarder interpreting 2 shot POI, no nice rounded 3-shot groups. just something heavy at the end of the barrel!!!

have fun retards!

Did he say that too heavy of weight can make your groups bad as well?

timintx

 

[amymorgan20]

Until someone can explain the exact science of how tuners work and back it up with empirical data, I'm not buying into it. I've also heard that the tumers only work for a single distance and if you're shooting multiple distances, it won't be good for the other distances. So that doesn't really help me since I am always shooting different distances.

 

[timintx]

Until someone can explain the exact science of how tuners work and back it up with empirical data, I'm not buying into it. I've also heard that the tumers only work for a single distance and if you're shooting multiple distances, it won't be good for the other distances. So that doesn't really help me since I am always shooting different distances.

If someone says they only work for one distance they do not understand how positive compensation works. Mine was tuned for 1000 yds but I still came in third in a 100 yard Benchrest match against some of the best shooters in the world.
timintx

 

[kthomas]

Yes, when Bryan Litz in his new book modern-advancements-long-range-shooting volume 3 find out that tuners didnt work for him like everybody are aimnimg for, he made such a stir...

all snake oil of tuner sellers are raving about how his test is bullshit, how they can find a node with 2 shots, they are experts in reading 3 shot groups, they can find velocity platoes with one shot where Bryan cant find those platoes with 10 shots, and Bryan didnt find that with only 1° of turn your gun will become world champion...

all comunity is in delirium, because Bryan didnt see that tuners work. it is just the same if i say to some retarded chatolic that there is no god... anger everywhere!

but those retarded people cant read what corelation Bryan DID find: heavier object on the muzzle produce smaller groups!

so those snake oil producers, youtube 2 shot groups experts, velocity platoes gurus only need to hange something heavy on their barrel and they will shoot smaller groups!! no stupid turns of tuners, no retarder interpreting 2 shot POI, no nice rounded 3-shot groups. just something heavy at the end of the barrel!!!

have fun retards!

Keep in mind, that only PRS and its adjacent disciplines use tuners to try and make smaller groups. No other discipline does this.

No BR or F-class shooter will suggest that you can shrink groups with a tuner, allowing you to forgo the load development process or to make factory ammo more precise. Well I guess Erik Cortina, but he also sells tuners - so there's a bit of a financial incentive for him to play up the benefits of a tuner. Nothing against Erik Cortina, but we need to recognize the bias.

There's a lot of BS in the world of reloading that you point out. And that same BS has been extended to tuners - using statistically irrelevant sample sizes to come to fairly determinant conclusions that actually don't exist. To date, there hasn't been any compelling evidence shared that shows that tuners reduce group size.

BR and F-class shooters have been using tuners for decades. They don't use them to shrink groups or forgo the load development process. They do use them to "keep their loads in tune" as the environmental conditions change. However, if you spend any time around these shooters, you'll notice that even they can't agree on how tuners should be used. It seems to be a bit of black art, given how differently every individual uses them. It's not cut and dry, if there's even any real benefit (besides a perceived one).

I'm not going to tell BR and F-class shooters they are doing it wrong. Maybe there is a little something to the application they are using it for. But I will say that using tuners to forgo the reloading process is complete snake oil BS, and probably making factory ammo more precise as well. All the evidence to date in regards to using tuners for making more precise ammo is very uncompelling.

 

[HerbUSMC]

Until someone can explain the exact science of how tuners work and back it up with empirical data, I'm not buying into it. I've also heard that the tumers only work for a single distance and if you're shooting multiple distances, it won't be good for the other distances. So that doesn't really help me since I am always shooting different distances.

Tuners work because of something called barrel harmonics. It’s as simple as understanding the “MOA”of your rifle. The vibration going through your barrel after a shot is Fred effects the positioning of the muzzle as the projectile leaves the barrel and depending on its actual location will ultimately effect the strike of the round. The “node” everyone talks about is all about harmonics and the actual muzzle locatin. Powder charge differences, bullet seating depth, length and type of material the barrel is made of also the length and diameter, the size and weight of your muzzle device all do the very same thing and that’s effect the way the barrel vibrates. The barrel tuner does the same. It make smal adjustments in that vibration to effect the location of the muzzle as the projectile leaves and again the location of the muzzle will ultimately affect the strike of the round. There’s a ton of information out there about barrel harmonics but it’s pretty simple each and everything that you do differently to your rifle or the round will affect the weight it vibrates and the location of the muzzle in that “node”

 

[kthomas]

Tuners work because of something called barrel harmonics. It’s as simple as understanding the “MOA”of your rifle. The vibration going through your barrel after a shot is Fred effects the positioning of the muzzle as the projectile leaves the barrel and depending on its actual location will ultimately effect the strike of the round. The “node” everyone talks about is all about harmonics and the actual muzzle locatin. Powder charge differences, bullet seating depth, length and type of material the barrel is made of also the length and diameter, the size and weight of your muzzle device all do the very same thing and that’s effect the way the barrel vibrates. The barrel tuner does the same. It make smal adjustments in that vibration to effect the location of the muzzle as the projectile leaves and again the location of the muzzle will ultimately affect the strike of the round. There’s a ton of information out there about barrel harmonics but it’s pretty simple each and everything that you do differently to your rifle or the round will affect the weight it vibrates and the location of the muzzle in that “node”

It's pretty easy to understand and demonstrate how tuners effect POI. That's well known and not even up for debate. The theory behind this is well understood.

What hasn't been explained is how different harmonic frequencies result in more precision. All the theoretics behind tuners focus on the above, the POI, but none that I've seen can explain or hypothesis why they make them more precise.

 

[HerbUSMC]

It’s funny because this is like a flat earth argument. The world we live in and all the “science “ is funded by someone who has an agenda and that ultimately effects what information is available. I wanted to know so i bought one. I was buying a muzzle break anyway and was gonna spend a good chunk of money regardless so i figured why not. I did my own testing and couldn’t believe how dramatic the results were. Change the ammo and you change the tune. Huge difrence from brand to brand of factory match ammo And also my own reloading recipes After i work up a load for my rifle and test all the varibles i have control over i then adjust the tuner weight to tighten up already good groups. The same folks arguing that barrel tuners are nonsense are the same people who don’t wanna believe variations of powder weight or bullet seating depth will effect their shooting. It boils down to how much are you willing to invest in the accuracy of your rifle. If your a hunter in the eastern United States and all of your targets are less than a 100 yards away and your primary concern is to be inside of the usual 5” circle of the Animals Vital organs then all this is nonsense because just about every rifle can do that well enough. But if you notice that one bullet weight shoots better than another or one load preforms better in one of your rifles than another, well then you on the edge of the “barrel harmonics” rabbit hole. When you start to learn how much the slightest variable effects the vibrations it’s absolutely nuts. It’s actually like saying the frets on a guitar don’t actually affect the sound of the note it’s just silly actually

 

[amymorgan20]

Tuners work because of something called barrel harmonics. It’s as simple as understanding the “MOA”of your rifle. The vibration going through your barrel after a shot is Fred effects the positioning of the muzzle as the projectile leaves the barrel and depending on its actual location will ultimately effect the strike of the round. The “node” everyone talks about is all about harmonics and the actual muzzle locatin. Powder charge differences, bullet seating depth, length and type of material the barrel is made of also the length and diameter, the size and weight of your muzzle device all do the very same thing and that’s effect the way the barrel vibrates. The barrel tuner does the same. It make smal adjustments in that vibration to effect the location of the muzzle as the projectile leaves and again the location of the muzzle will ultimately affect the strike of the round. There’s a ton of information out there about barrel harmonics but it’s pretty simple each and everything that you do differently to your rifle or the round will affect the weight it vibrates and the location of the muzzle in that “node”

Sure, I get barrel harmonics, no denying that. But you're just making claims as to how tuners affect barrel harmonics without offering empirical evidence.

 

[Taylorbok]

@MarkyMark007 great contribution

 

[badassgunworks]

Well you can either believe Bryan because he wrote a book who is a external ballistics expert .or you can believe guys. Who are internal ballistics experts that have been winning matches for 25 plus years using tuners. and by the way only a fool would forgo load devlopment using a tuner. But on that note you can make factory ammo shoot better not good or great but better . Tuner manufactors are guilty of not knowing what they do and false advertizing threw ignorance. . But swallowing the litz load is calling 100's of the best shooters in the world wrong and i garentee you his book wont make them deside to not use tuners

 

[kthomas]

Well you can either believe Bryan because he wrote a book who is a external ballistics expert .or you can believe guys. Who are internal ballistics experts that have been winning matches for 25 plus years using tuners. and by the way only a fool would forgo load devlopment using a tuner. But on that note you can make factory ammo shoot better not good or great but better . Tuner manufactors are guilty of not knowing what they do and false advertizing threw ignorance. . But swallowing the litz load is calling 100's of the best shooters in the world wrong and i garentee you his book wont make them deside to not use tuners

There's a lot of BS out there about tuners, especially in the PRS type disciplines that just somehow found out about tuners.

One of the problems with tuners, as its use is associated in BR, F-class (and I'm assuming ELR), is that it's a bit of a black art - everyone's using them differently, and no one can seemingly adequately explain how exactly they work.

 

[Taylorbok]

and by the way only a fool would forgo load devlopment using a tuner.

I don't use a tuner yet and this is my thoughts on a tuner even if they are marketed that way I still wouldn't skip load dev.

 

[badassgunworks]

I don't use a tuner yet and this is my thoughts on a tuner even if they are marketed that way I still wouldn't skip load dev.

Here is how I do it I install the tuner brake on the gun I do a full ladder develop loads make them as good as I possibly can by adjusting neck tension seating depth and powder types and volumes once I pick my chosen load I then will shoot four to five five shot groups to confirm my ladder are then we'll go to 500 to 700 yd will shoot a minimum of three five shot groups to confirm a possible average and then at that distance tune to cut that group size down even further then reconfirm with three five shot groups

 

[HerbUSMC]

It's pretty easy to understand and demonstrate how tuners effect POI. That's well known and not even up for debate. The theory behind this is well understood.

What hasn't been explained is how different harmonic frequencies result in more precision. All the theoretics behind tuners focus on the above, the POI, but none that I've seen can explain or hypothesis why they make them more precise.

It’s not at all about one frequency being more or less accurate at all. It’s only about the most important thing in marksmanship and that’s consistency

 

[cas6969]

What does Litz say about shift keys?

 

[MarkyMark007]

If someone says they only work for one distance they do no understand how positive compensation works. Mine was tuned for 1000 yds but I still came in third in a 100 yard Benchrest match against some of the best shooters in the world.
timintx

I think Bryan Litz still offering a prize if someone prove to him that positive compensation works.
Go for it!

 

[MarkyMark007]

Well you can either believe Bryan because he wrote a book who is a external ballistics expert .or you can believe guys. Who are internal ballistics experts that have been winning matches for 25 plus years using tuners.

so you also believe that the most precision barrel is 21 ¾” long, like they say in huston warehouse?

 

[MarkyMark007]

Sure, I get barrel harmonics, no denying that. But you're just making claims as to how tuners affect barrel harmonics without offering empirical evidence.

barrel harmonics is another TOTALY NOT understood topic, full of shit with positive compensating fairy tales and snake oil sellers.

 

[timintx]

I think Bryan Litz still offering a prize if someone prove to him that positive compensation works.
Go for it!

BS, yea give away 20 years of research for 1000.00 really?

 

[timintx]

barrel harmonics is another TOTALY NOT understood topic, full of shit with positive compensating fairy tales and snake oil sellers.

BS, No that is just you that does not understand because you have not applied it .

timintx

 

[timintx]

There's a lot of BS out there about tuners, especially in the PRS type disciplines that just somehow found out about tuners.

One of the problems with tuners, as its use is associated in BR, F-class (and I'm assuming ELR), is that it's a bit of a black art - everyone's using them differently, and no one can seemingly adequately explain how exactly they work.

it has been explained many times over , this is data driven explanations not a black art , just different methods which all work just fine .

timintx

 

[brianf]

BS, yea give away 20 years of research for 1000.00 really?

question for you, on the other tuner thread that turned into a shit show lol

i believe you suggested that you had a patent on positive compensation switch/adjustment on one of you stocks...i could be totally wrong though

if its patented who cares if he sees it the patent is available on line?

flip side if i had data and skillset that would prove one of the most well known and respected (like him or not) resources in the industry, id drop the mic as i walk off the range

a lot easier to monetize 20 years of data and giving it to your kids as inheritance while taking down a big shot, then bringing it to the grave...

 

[timintx]

There's a lot of BS out there about tuners, especially in the PRS type disciplines that just somehow found out about tuners.

One of the problems with tuners, as its use is associated in BR, F-class (and I'm assuming ELR), is that it's a bit of a black art - everyone's using them differently, and no one can seemingly adequately

timintx

question for you, on the other tuner thread that turned into a shit show lol

i believe you suggested that you had a patent on positive compensation switch/adjustment on one of you stocks...i could be totally wrong though

if its patented who cares if he sees it the patent is available on line?

flip side if i had data and skillset that would prove one of the most well known and respected (like him or not) resources in the industry, id drop the mic as i walk off the range

a lot easier to monetize 20 years of data and giving it to your kids as inheritance while taking down a big shot, then bringing it to the grave...

I don’t care who sees it. I am not trying to take down Bryan as you suggested, but I will protect my technology because he is the one person smart enough who could reverse engineer it right out from under me .I don’t hate him nor do I disrespect him .I was just explaining why I can turn off the compensation and turn it back on . .When I have many years and at least 3/4 of a million dollars invested in this whole project , why would I give it to someone that would sell it for millions ? I am trying to get this to the military and will soon I hope . Our snipers need this badly especially for cold bore one shot hits no matter what Bryan or anyone thinks . But as far as tuners go I will be glad to help anyone that wants to learn .

timintx

 

[brianf]

timintx

I don’t care who sees it. I am not trying to take down Bryan as you suggested, but I will protect my technology because he is the one person smart enough who could reverse engineer it right out from under me .I don’t hate him nor do I disrespect him .I was just explaining why I can turn off the compensation and turn it back on . .When I have many years and at least 3/4 of a million dollars invested in this whole project , why would I give it to someone that would sell it for millions ? I am trying to get this to the military and will soon I hope . Our snipers need this badly especially for cold bore one shot hits no matter what Bryan or anyone thinks . But as far as tuners go I will be glad to help anyone that wants to learn .

timintx

all joking side if your trying to get it to the military and you already know that bryan can and will turn it into millions...50% of millions is better than 100% of not millions.

big money is big money, id be there tomorrow with a NDA and contract stating when i show you it works we are now in business 50/50.

 

[timintx]

all joking side if your trying to get it to the military and you already know that bryan can and will turn it into millions...50% of millions is better than 100% of not millions.

big money is big money, id be there tomorrow with a NDA and contract stating when i show you it works we are now in business 50/50.

I do not believe that for one moment , when it comes to millions of dollars a NDA is useless especially during a demo if all of the agreements are broken during a demo , which has happened before by gun manufacturers and individuals alike . I am more interested in getting out of there with them not believing me.

timintx

 

[brianf]

I do not believe that for one moment , when it comes to millions of dollars a NDA is useless .

timintx

not getting into a pissing match but NDA plus patent hold up in court all day long, thats why they are used

best of luck and hope you kill it (and some bad guys) if you get in the military...ill prob buy one lol

innovation is always a positive in any industry

 

[kthomas]

it has been explained many times over , this is data driven explanations not a black art , just different methods which all work just fine .

timintx

No, actual it's been extremely ambiguous. As evidenced in this thread.

 

[timintx]

No, actual it's been extremely ambiguous. As evidenced in this thread.

Just differing ways that’s all , there is no one way , there are many ways to set a tuner ,everybody has their own way of doing things . I am not going to push my methods on someone else if they don’t want to hear it . But again tuners effect vertical , keep that in mind and tuners get real easy to adjust after that .


timintx

 

[Taylorbok]

@timintx I'd love to see your product, this is the first I'm hearing of it.

 

[timintx]

@timintx I'd love to see your product, this is the first I'm hearing of it.

Let’s keep it about tuners for now and keep this thread on track .I am doing thing with fixed weighting such as suppressors, brakes etc. but tuners will allow you to adjust if need be which is essential for competing . I will pm you if you want more info .

timintx

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

So, I can only talk to the physics of harmonics within constraints but I think there is a broad misconception that would probably be worth addressing. There is not a single harmonic in a barrel when a shot is fired and it isn't in a single plane. The base harmonic frequency of a barrel is quite low around 500 hertz for most of the barrels that we are talking about here. After the bullet exits, that is the dominant harmonic but during the transit of the bullet/powder forces a faster harmonic on top of it. Since a barrel is not constrained to a single plane of motion, it will tend to vibrate at multiple frequencies at once and probably all in slightly different directions.

Can you tune the largest amplitude one with a heavy enough mass? Yes. Can you tune all of them to be in an optimal position? No.

Litz points out that a mass at the end of the barrel by itself improves accuracy and this makes sense as it would essentially reduce the harmonic amplitude.

Does the success of some people using tuners demonstrate their worth? Not really. It just says they probably aren't hurting anything. People buy and build based upon follow the leader and there are cycles of "X thing is the cats ass" followed by, "X thing is pointless". Look at how many people went to moly coated bullets only to decide it was crap a few years later

-Alex.