Two high quality bullets, but one works and the other doesn't?

[NORCAL50]

What do you guys do when your gun consistently shoots sub half MOA w/ some good freedom seeds like a Berger 140gr Hybrid Target, and then you go and load up some Barnes 120gr TTSX for hunting and you get at best **1.33MOA w/ 2ES, 0.9 SD from 4 shot groups**. (I have to run the mono's because I'm in California btw, and have had great sub-MOA groups with the TTSX in other guns with worn to hand me down barrels.)

I was pushing them in the hot end of H4350 (41.9gr - 43.1gr) for the velocity (2842-2935FPS), ~2.775 COAL (0.05" Jump), Lapua LR Brass, CCI LRP. Rifle: Howa 1500 1:8" Twist, 24" Barrel 6.5CM

I have a few ideas what might be the culprit here, but what do you guys think? Bad powder/bullet and or weight combo, seating depth, gun just doesn't like the bullets? If anyone has had success with these in their 6.5CM let me know. Thanks

 

[Slab74]

I have found that Barnes love running hot in my guns, but my uncle has a 7-08 that shoots one hole at the low end. Deer never know the difference. Guns are like women, every one likes different things.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Also bear in mind that the 120 TTSX at 2950 FPS can’t be trusted to open past ~450 yds (2000 FPS), where your 1.33 MOA (6.27”) is still well inside the boiler room of a deer.

What do I do? Kill the damn deer with the load that’s more than accurate enough for its effective range.

ETA: If you’re dead-set on sub-MOA monos, try the 127 LRX or the various Hammer offerings. I’d honestly start with the Hammers if you’re accuracy-desperate, they have a better rep there than the Barnes.

 

[NORCAL50]

^^ Hmm good to know. I'll have to give the hammers a try. While I don't mind 1.33 for hunting, I like to have the accuracy if I know I can get it. Helps with compounding errors in the field.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Get some Hammers, you'll forget all about Barnes.

 

[Hawk in WY]

I would try loading shorter. Barnes bullets like a longer jump in some rifles.

Second option would be to change powders. Barnes had the best accuracy with IMR 4007 SSC.

Good luck

 

[cwinner]

I second the seating depth recommendation...... I use the 127TTSX in my 6.5's for deer hunting and they like to jump, at least .050" in my experience..... try loading them shorter and I bet the performance improves. They don't like being in the lands like Berger's!

 

[acourvil]

+1 on the 127LRX with a .050 jump, running ~2825fps with H4350

I've heard good things about the hammers as well, but the 127LRX shoots great and I haven't had a reason to change.

 

[NORCAL50]

Well thanks for all the seating depth reccomendations. Seems to be the consensus here followed by different bullet and powder.

I have shot all them @0.050 jump so I'll try 0.075 and 0.100 next which is where I have my Berger's just to fit them in the mag.

Crossing my fingers. Components are too expensive to do testing let alone change components mid testing lol.

 

[alamo5000]

What do you guys do when your gun consistently shoots sub half MOA w/ some good freedom seeds like a Berger 140gr Hybrid Target, and then you go and load up some Barnes 120gr TTSX for hunting and you get at best **1.33MOA w/ 2ES, 0.9 SD from 4 shot groups**. (I have to run the mono's because I'm in California btw, and have had great sub-MOA groups with the TTSX in other guns with worn to hand me down barrels.)

I was pushing them in the hot end of H4350 (41.9gr - 43.1gr) for the velocity (2842-2935FPS), ~2.775 COAL (0.05" Jump), Lapua LR Brass, CCI LRP. Rifle: Howa 1500 1:8" Twist, 24" Barrel 6.5CM

I have a few ideas what might be the culprit here, but what do you guys think? Bad powder/bullet and or weight combo, seating depth, gun just doesn't like the bullets? If anyone has had success with these in their 6.5CM let me know. Thanks

I have looked into copper bullets before but I haven't really tested any.

That said think about this: Jacketed lead bullets are of a completely different density (heavier) than full copper.

Let's say you had a bullet that was fantastic and you had the means to CNC a full copper clone. The weight difference would (for bullets) be huge despite these two bullets being exactly the same dimensions.

That then throws off everything. Speed, harmonics, you name it. The copper bullet would reach the muzzle faster and exit the bore way faster than the lead jacketed bullet. In theory it would even alter the 'correct' or 'optimal' powder charge needed to make the copper bullet perform vs the lead jacketed one.

In other words I don't doubt that you can made the copper bullets work, but you will need to start at ground zero on load development to make that happen. Data for a traditional jacketed bullet cannot be used interchangeably with copper bullets so don't even go down that rabbit hole.

 

[NORCAL50]

In other words I don't doubt that you can made the copper bullets work, but you will need to start at ground zero on load development to make that happen. Data for a traditional jacketed bullet cannot be used interchangeably with copper bullets so don't even go down that rabbit hole.

Just to clarify, the data reported here is from a powder test that I performed. I don't do seating depth tests first, but I know many other do with great success.

I also might add I was following Barnes load data up until 42.5gr. I went over to accommodate the increased case capacity from loading the bullets longer checking for pressure signs along the way. There were none so I proceeded up until 43.1 where I saw slight pressure signs and stopped.

Obligatory: Start from the minimun charge and work your way up.

 

[Steel head]

I can kill a lot of stuff with 1.3 moa accuracy.
If you’re running both in same barrel it could take a while for them to settle in or require some deep cleaning

 

[NORCAL50]

I can kill a lot of stuff with 1.3 moa accuracy.
If you’re running both in same barrel it could take a while for them to settle in or require some deep cleaning

Will keep that in mind, but barrel had 2 fowler shots after a fresh cleaning w/ a good carbon remover and a good copper remover.

I would be confident with 1.3MOA at 400 yards, but only if that assumes "perfect" accuracy (group centered on target) & precision (1.3MOA). After I account for the fact that I'll need a custom drag model because monolithic bullets follow G1/G7 models the worst, wind is different down range, deer moves slightly as the shot breaks, shot is pulled by me, my true zero was actually off by a click etc. then those 1.3MOA's start to become a headache that I should have dealt with to begin with before I saw that beautiful buck @400yds that isn't broadside.

 

[Steel head]

Will keep that in mind, but barrel had 2 fowler shots after a fresh cleaning w/ a good carbon remover and a good copper remover.

I would be confident with 1.3MOA at 400 yards, but only if that assumes "perfect" accuracy (group centered on target) & precision (1.3MOA). After I account for the fact that I'll need a custom drag model because monolithic bullets follow G1/G7 models the worst, wind is different down range, deer moves slightly as the shot breaks, shot is pulled by me, my true zero was actually off by a click etc. then those 1.3MOA's start to become a headache that I should have dealt with to begin with before I saw that beautiful buck @400yds that isn't broadside.

Quite a few have needed more like a dozen plus fouler shots with solids.

Never heard of solids having g1 or G7 issues or wonky wind issues.

My 265’s works out nicely with a G1 they list.

 

[NORCAL50]

Quite a few have needed more like a dozen plus fouler shots with solids.

Never heard of solids having g1 or G7 issues or wonky wind issues.

My 265’s works out nicely with a G1 they list.

According to Bryan Litz book on Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting 3rd Edition: "Due to the extremely long ogives, non-conical boat tails, needle point noses and drive bands, most of the lathe turned solids have drag curves that don't even match the G7 standard curve very well, and bear no resemblance at all to the G1 curve (Litz, Pg. 474)." and I have experienced these issues, however very slight within the ranges we would use for hunting purposes so that might be why you have never experienced such issues.

Also, if my solids don't perform with fewer than two fowler shots then I consider it a load that is a waste of my time because I clean my guns if stored for long period of time and have no time to foul my barrel before a hunt with that many rounds.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Honestly, out to 450 yds discrepancies between the G1 model and actual trajectory will be extremely minor unless the mfg got it wrong. Also, the LRX/TTSX aren’t lathe-turned, although they may exhibit the same divergences that Litz describes.

It’s actually kinda nice that the Barnes bullets are “useless” past 450-500, kinda removes the need for those razor-edge considerations that are the norm in true LR/ELR applications.

Looks like Hammer advises G7 for theirs, and the 124gr Hammer Hunter is the one you want, I’d say. Says the G7 BC was calculated from trajectory, but one review on the site stated it didn’t match their experience. Just gotta go shoot it to find out!

Patented Custom Bullets | Hammer Bullets

Hammer Bullets are custom designed bullets offering superior accuracy and ensuring minimal game waste. Our bullets have higher velocity and are lead free.

hammerbullets.com

.264 Cal-124gr Hammer Hunter™ - Hammer Bullets

This is our most popular Hammer Hunter™. Designed for a 1-8" twist, this bullet will run in all the modern .264(6.5mm) rifles like the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 26 Nosler. The 124gr Hammer Hunter™ is responsible for taking big game all over the world.

hammerbullets.com

@BoltRunner Read the initial post, dude. That “hot blonde” is illegal for OP’s intended use, which is why he’s shopping for a new side squeeze.

PS: Hornady 4DOF shows an extra 50 yds of effective range on the LRX at 2950 FPS vs the TTSX, for what it’s worth.

 

[BoltRunner]

@KnowNothing256 yep my bad, post deleted had no idea all the bullshit you cant use in CA, carry on...

 

[KnowNothing256]

@KnowNothing256 yep my bad, post deleted had no idea all the bullshit you cant use in CA, carry on...

Otherwise i’m 100% there with ya haha

 

[Doc_Holliday]

First thought was jump it further, then I saw about half the comments here say the same thing, so there that...

 

[NORCAL50]

Update: I have loaded my best load (1.33MOA, 2 ES, 0.050 Jump) @0.075 & 0.100 jump. The results are: 2.4MOA 43 ES, 1.8MOA 2 ES respectively.

Seems every 0.050" I get a 2ES load. Groups still bad though. Might do one more @ 0.005" jump, but will be switching to hammer hunters if I don't see a sub 0.75MOA load— which I don't have high hopes for.

Thanks for the help though guys!

BTW The Barnes 120gr TTSX .264 G7 BC for anyone who wants to know is 0.208 ± 0.003 @ 99% Confidence.

 

[acudaowner]

the only bullets I have tried in 3 years my gun would not shoot were snb 's and a company called eagle eye with them every other primer was a dud other wise even the hunting bullets shot great am gunner prime and berger as well as the barns all 140 gr . I still wanna try the a tip hornady when the prices come way down . Even solids shot pretty nice still have some tinkering with my loads for them and the crazy price .

 

[Doc_Holliday]

Now I'm just curious, but when you say 1.8 minute group at 2 ES is the group basically 1.8" wide with minimal vertical dispersion?

 

[NORCAL50]

Now I'm just curious, but when you say 1.8 minute group at 2 ES is the group basically 1.8" wide with minimal vertical dispersion?

Nope, just as fat as it is wide. I wish I had an explanation for what makes the groups so bad with not once but twice having fantastic ES with massive groups.

 

[FCS]

I’d go step faster in burn rate.
H4350 is slower burn rate than you really want for 120 TTSX.

 

[NORCAL50]

I’d go step faster in burn rate.
H4350 is slower burn rate than you really want for 120 TTSX.

That's what I'm worried about with how hard it is to find powder, otherwise I'd have gone and bought a pound by now. Trying to make it work though lol.

 

[FCS]

Varget, VV N140 / N540 / N150, IMR-4064 / 4320, AA-4064, RL-15, Norma 230-B

5 rds, 120 TTSX @ 200, 6.5 Creed

5 rds, 120 TTSX @ 100, 6.5 Creed