US SOCOM looking into 6.5/260

[ShortShooter1908]

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Probably old news to this crew but all I had heard was rumors.

 

[littlehendrick]

Makes sense. It will be interesting to see if it branches out beyond SOCOM, and part two, if they end up developing an EPR type round for the 6.5, and the specs on it.

 

[m1marty]

I was just about to post this. An m110 in 6.5 would be tits.

 

[Rthur]

Saw an article that was of the opinion the the 6.5 creed was a done deal.

R

 

[__JR__]

I was just about to post this. An m110 in 6.5 would be tits.

Biggins!

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Thought this was already confirmed with SOCOM/JSOC getting the Geissele VSASS but I reckon that was just a test/trials rifle..? Anyhow, awesome badass news either way. Though I woulda thought they'd start the transition toward 6.5 by getting some 6.5mm barrels for the Remington MSR. Figure the advantage over .308 would be quite a bit more evident/usable in a bolt action but again awesome news regardless and about damn time! That SCAR looks so fckn sick.

@littlehendrick - EPR round? You mean like a M855A1 type deal for 6.5mm..?? That would definitely be interesting if they could do a high BC armor piercing round. Considering steels much less dense than lead, it kinda naturally lends itself to a long low drag design. AP rounds usually ain't known for accuracy at all though, but I wonder if that's simply due to the arsenals and such not being worried about accuracy for AP, or if it's difficult to make AP projo's with the same/similar consistency as conventional lead/copper bullets.
From what I've seen tho M855A1 is definitely quite the improvement over M855 in pretty much every regard. Aside from some rumblings about -A1 chewing up feed ramps, in HK 416s in particular?
HSM makes some interesting ammo btw, I wouldn't be surprised if they already have some 6.5 AP stuff, pretty sure they already do .338 Lapua AP.

 

[plong]

Saw an article that was of the opinion the the 6.5 creed was a done deal.

R

It is...

 

[W54/XM-388]

I wonder if that means that we'll be able to get some 6.5 projectiles of the more "interesting" variety eventually.

 

[__JR__]

10 years late to the game as always, maybe their next step is 7mm.

 

[littlehendrick]

Thought this was already confirmed with SOCOM/JSOC getting the Geissele VSASS but I reckon that was just a test/trials rifle..? Anyhow, awesome badass news either way. Though I woulda thought they'd start the transition toward 6.5 by getting some 6.5mm barrels for the Remington MSR. Figure the advantage over .308 would be quite a bit more evident/usable in a bolt action but again awesome news regardless and about damn time! That SCAR looks so fckn sick.

@littlehendrick - EPR round? You mean like a M855A1 type deal for 6.5mm..?? That would definitely be interesting if they could do a high BC armor piercing round. Considering steels much less dense than lead, it kinda naturally lends itself to a long low drag design. AP rounds usually ain't known for accuracy at all though, but I wonder if that's simply due to the arsenals and such not being worried about accuracy for AP, or if it's difficult to make AP projo's with the same/similar consistency as conventional lead/copper bullets.
From what I've seen tho M855A1 is definitely quite the improvement over M855 in pretty much every regard. Aside from some rumblings about -A1 chewing up feed ramps, in HK 416s in particular?
HSM makes some interesting ammo btw, I wouldn't be surprised if they already have some 6.5 AP stuff, pretty sure they already do .338 Lapua AP.

You are correct, EPR as in something similar to M855A1. With more room in the magazine, it gives designed more options. I am not smart on full bullet construction, so I can ‘t comment on AP accuracy potential.

Now in terms of the 855A1 stuff, it does run at a higher pressure than 855, which may cause more wear on parts. I didn’t shoot enough of it at my last post to observe the maintenance trend. It is plenty accurate for military needs, but it does have a different zero than the old M855 (not a real shock). It also has a higher ricochet factor than M855, as well as penetrating more barriers (kind of the intent, but second and third order effects of training).

 

[tomcatfan]

10 years late to the game as always, maybe their next step is 7mm.

Wait a minute, according to mall ninjas, the military only uses the best things in the world. There can’t possibly be anything better than 556, 308, 300wm, 338 lm, and the 50 bmg. -end sarcasm.

 

[Primus]

10 years late to the game as always, maybe their next step is 7mm.

This news is 10+ years old. Elements in SOCOM were running the .260 and other Hi .BC guns (300win, 7mm Mag) before most here even knew what BC meant. The community has a long history of custom bolt guns, you just never saw it.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

You are correct, EPR as in something similar to M855A1. With more room in the magazine, it gives designed more options. I am not smart on full bullet construction, so I can ‘t comment on AP accuracy potential.

Now in terms of the 855A1 stuff, it does run at a higher pressure than 855, which may cause more wear on parts. I didn’t shoot enough of it at my last post to observe the maintenance trend. It is plenty accurate for military needs, but it does have a different zero than the old M855 (not a real shock). It also has a higher ricochet factor than M855, as well as penetrating more barriers (kind of the intent, but second and third order effects of training).

AP rounds certainly can be accurate but it all depends on who makes it and how much effort goes into it. The RUAG .338LM was heavly favored by the Aussie SAS dudes I worked with in 12" due to it accuracy over Ball/Match, M8 API is typically much more accurate that M33 and if memory serves me right the old M2 AP 30-06 was offen seen as the top choice over ball in the accuracy department.

As ERPs go I've seen some of the early M855A1 and M80A1 shoot really well, like right around 1 MOA but the current lot of M855A1 I've been running about 2-2.5 MOA but a good 100fps faster than most of the old M855, clock it at 2970fps out a 14.5" yesterday. A 6.5 ERP round would be quite a round but I'd be worried about barrel life if it was issued to any units outside of SOF.

Also as you mentioned those 2nd and 3rd order effects of training restrictions are real factors in maintaining proficiency. We had all our shoot houses at Ft. Lewis shut down for a block of time back in 15" due to the "discovery" that M855A1 over penetrated so bad. The new SDZ are much more restrictive and most shoot houses are still a no go with M855A1. I mean yeah SOF gets a ton of leeway with range stuff but most people don't realize that even simple projectile changes can lead to huge bureaucratic nightmares. Just look at .338LM Army SOF has guns, has DODICs but there is (maybe its changed) no US Army SDZ for it, sometimes a post range control will let it fly with the Navy approved SDZ but even then a couple of years ago there was only like 6-7 range complexes in the us military that offically allowed .338LM.

And people wonder why it's only now being "officially" adopted, like changing calibers is easy as changing socks! Fact is some of us have been using .260/6.5 for quite sometime but yo've never heard about it because the community is small...and what range control doesn't know, won't hurt them. LOL.

 

[littlehendrick]

AP rounds certainly can be accurate but it all depends on who makes it and how much effort goes into it. The RUAG .338LM was heavly favored by the Aussie SAS dudes I worked with in 12" due to it accuracy over Ball/Match, M8 API is typically much more accurate that M33 and if memory serves me right the old M2 AP 30-06 was offen seen as the top choice over ball in the accuracy department.

As ERPs go I've seen some of the early M855A1 and M80A1 shoot really well, like right around 1 MOA but the current lot of M855A1 I've been running about 2-2.5 MOA but a good 100fps faster than most of the old M855, clock it at 2970fps out a 14.5" yesterday. A 6.5 ERP round would be quite a round but I'd be worried about barrel life if it was issued to any units outside of SOF.

Also as you mentioned those 2nd and 3rd order effects of training restrictions are real factors in maintaining proficiency. We had all our shoot houses at Ft. Lewis shut down for a block of time back in 15" due to the "discovery" that M855A1 over penetrated so bad. The new SDZ are much more restrictive and most shoot houses are still a no go with M855A1. I mean yeah SOF gets a ton of leeway with range stuff but most people don't realize that even simple projectile changes can lead to huge bureaucratic nightmares. Just look at .338LM Army SOF has guns, has DODICs but there is (maybe its changed) no US Army SDZ for it, sometimes a post range control will let it fly with the Navy approved SDZ but even then a couple of years ago there was only like 6-7 range complexes in the us military that offically allowed .338LM.

And people wonder why it's only now being "officially" adopted, like changing calibers is easy as changing socks! Fact is some of us have been using .260/6.5 for quite sometime but yo've never heard about it because the community is small...and what range control doesn't know, won't hurt them. LOL.

Agreed on all. I haven’t had to plan any live fire ranges with the A1, but I have heard from peers that it can make it more difficult because of the expanded SDZ’s. Guess I will see once I am back in the real Army in a few months instead of school house stuff. The EPR in a 6.5 would be interesting, but like you said, barrel life will be an issue, especially once outside of the SOCOM side in large circulation.

And yes, range control has....their way of doing business. Hadn’t run into the 338 problem, I don’t play in those circles.

Frankly, I am fine with folks not knowing what our small communities are using. It doesn’t effect even me in normal units. Let the folks focus on killing things that need to be killed.

 

[RyanScott]

An EPR bullet has been produced in 6.5 for testing.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Thanks for posting yall. Interesting insight, not to mention I didn't even know there was a M80A1... how is its penetration performance vs .30-06 AP?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

@Rudy Gonsior @littlehendrick - do yall know the BC's for M855A1 and M80A1? And how they perform against level III body armor? Level IV??

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

M855A1 @3122fps out of a 20" barrel, came in with a G1 of right around 0.301 based off of real world drops out to 1250m. I haven't shot enough of the M80A1 to be sure but seems like something to the tune of 0.19-0.2. Level III doesn't stand much of a chance but Level IV might still be good, honestly just a guess from what I've seen against steel.

 

[McCrazy]

At Fort Campbell we couldn't shoot our 300 Win Mags at most of the Sniper ranges because damned Range Control decided 300 Win Mag needed a 7km SDZ whereas a fricking .50 cal machinegun with an idiot on the butterfly trigger needed less.

 

[BravoSierra]

Depending on who you talk to, .260 is still being considered amongst several circles for gas guns. The effects of port erosion and which round is more reliable when they erode a bit is the question. And .260, apparently, does better in that regard. I don't know, whatever makes them happy but I'm more interested in which bullet they are going to fly than what cartridge.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

At Fort Campbell we couldn't shoot our 300 Win Mags at most of the Sniper ranges because damned Range Control decided 300 Win Mag needed a 7km SDZ whereas a fricking .50 cal machinegun with an idiot on the butterfly trigger needed less.

Oh dude I totally feel your pain. We use to shoot our .300WMs at Ft. Lewis on Range 22 (just a standard KD affair) for years under the SDZ for M118SB prior to the DODIC being adapted to big army and nobody died. Same thing with Mk211, can't shoot it into the impact area because it might start a fire but they'll lob 155mm HE all summer long.

 

[littlehendrick]

Depending on who you talk to, .260 is still being considered amongst several circles for gas guns. The effects of port erosion and which round is more reliable when they erode a bit is the question. And .260, apparently, does better in that regard. I don't know, whatever makes them happy but I'm more interested in which bullet they are going to fly than what cartridge.

I really wonder who told you that. Because I am failing to see how 260 would erode less than 6.5 creedmoor. More powder capacity for the same given diameter and bullet weight. I don’t think there is enough of a difference that a completely different powder would drastically alter the wear. And the fact that gas gun mags (tend) to run shorter OAL’s, seems like it would favor the Creedmoor based on the ability to more freely design bullets that fit mag length (as per the article).

But hey, they can do their secret squirrel stuff as long as it is working.

 

[jaycoux]

I really wonder who told you that. Because I am failing to see how 260 would erode less than 6.5 creedmoor. More powder capacity for the same given diameter and bullet weight. I don’t think there is enough of a difference that a completely different powder would drastically alter the wear. And the fact that gas gun mags (tend) to run shorter OAL’s, seems like it would favor the Creedmoor based on the ability to more freely design bullets that fit mag length (as per the article).

But hey, they can do their secret squirrel stuff as long as it is working.

It was noted from one manufacturer that the 260 vas very tolerant of different gas settings. In contrast, the 6.5 creed was not. I think the idea of hole erosion causing issues backs this finding up. The straight wall of the 6.5 CM was postulated to be a potential culprit.

 

[RyanScott]

Bigger ports erode faster. If there’s anything to it, it will be that the 260 with more and potentially slower burning powder has a smaller port.

 

[FatBoy]

if this happens, large scale, I'm curious to see the test criteria for the ammo. The test process for the m248 mod1 comes to mind. If they can make this work with something like N160 or N165, I think 260 or 6.5CM is a viable long term option. If they decide to go with a 130 class bullets probably even more so.

 

[SilentStalkr]

They’ve already been fielding it for awhile now to some groups.