Using a Zero that isn't 100yd - Why?

[TheOtherAndrew]

im tellin you, 650 is the sweet spot.

View attachment 7854134

not a terrible point, I like the effort - looks peachy, but 0.1mil = 36" at 1000yd and there is a lot more atmospherics/change in DA etc that can really get you off target IMO. I just know 1000yd shots are a definite dial specific situation for me and my skill level.

 

[b6graham]

and now we've gone full circle ladies and gentleman

dialing targets is the most precise

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

most matches you have enough time to dial every target unless the COF says otherwise

or you're holding over 1-2mil max

Ill agree with that

the intention was more for UKD targets in 3-700yd zone that need to be hit quickly (no looking at DOPE card, no real thinking at all just put at correct mil hold and send - it'll be rather close from data so far

but yes my next goal is to actually shoot this style with the layout described and see real world results.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Yeah actually it is as I don’t have enough time for my own stuff and honestly don’t care that much about what you want to prove. Lol Good luck.

great, thanks for checking in?

 

[Rob01]

and now we've gone full circle ladies and gentleman

dialing targets is the most precise

Why your feeding this? You bored? Lol

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I thought you were too cool for this school and had to go? Id say b6graham is doing a decent job pointing out USEFUL KNOWLEDGE to prove me wrong.

Rob01 - youre just being a pest, so far.

 

[Jack Master]

0.2 mils off of the established (-2.0) mil hold for 100yd makes the difference 0.2mil which is .72 inches not 7.2inches

Right. I see your 2 mil hold under now. Yes, That math will track and this system will have merit. Most calibers will be close to 2 mils at 400yards if they are in the 2600 to 2900 fps due to similar times of flight. This will fall apart when you get over 3200fps (fast 6's and .224's) but for a lot of calibers it will track.

 

[Aftermath]

not a terrible point, I like the effort - looks peachy, but 0.1mil = 36" at 1000yd and there is a lot more atmospherics/change in DA etc that can really get you off target IMO. I just know 1000yd shots are a definite dial specific situation for me and my skill level.

Your math is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

youre correct I made a mistake. my bad

 

[Rob01]

I thought you were too cool for this school and had to go? Id say b6graham is doing a decent job pointing out USEFUL KNOWLEDGE to prove me wrong.

Rob01 - youre just being a pest, so far.

No I don’t have time to do your work. Big difference.

So how far have you actually shot? Dialed? Held? What “target packages”? Give us a little background. How long you been doing it?

 

[308pirate]

I don't have the access to that kind of target package.

All I asked was for you to plug in one number on your profile and see...post the results.
You know about Kraft Drill I assume...its the same thing - using multiple people [datasets that aren't your own manipulated ones] to get a better grasp on the underlying physics.

Id say Im asking even less than Kraft Drill. Plug the number 400 in and check the results 1-700yd then post.

If thats me asking too much work from you guys then Ive been thrown through another loop here on the Hide that I didn't see coming. I did a lot of work on this already everything I can up to reality - so right now the phase is can others replicate my theoretical results with their specific ballistic profiles, what are the limits then, where do the numbers start to break down? Because tryDOPE and truDOPE are different - I used all tryDOPEs on different calibers/bullet weights but you guys should have truDOPE and that is more valuable to me as of now (as it should be).

Do you ever shoot a rifle?

 

[308pirate]

I thought you were too cool for this school and had to go? Id say b6graham is doing a decent job pointing out USEFUL KNOWLEDGE to prove me wrong.

Rob01 - youre just being a pest, so far.

Why do you think anyone here owes you anything?

Who the fuck do you think you are?

 

[Baron23]

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

No I don’t have time to do your work. Big difference.

So how far have you actually shot? Dialed? Held? What “target packages”? Give us a little background. How long you been doing it?

Shot an instructors gun to the ~1790yd mark - 5 shots, 2 misses then 3 hits?
Dialed my slow ass Tikka 6.5 (2510fps) to 16.9 to hit the 1400yd target.
Held in a speed drill doing 3, 4, 5 6, 700yd hit all but the last one on first try from standing tripod w/ bag.
Tagret package was very nice - out in CO at ~6kDa, oh and the whole time was 15-22mph winds at ~3/4 values

Before that shot regular DOPE gathering to 1000yd at a range at ~1-2kDA
Shot a match at same place and got 6th place first match

After all that went to Raton (7.3kDA) and shot a match in Feb that got snowy and crazy winds (switchy) 1 shot at 60 targets from 200-885 - didn't do amazing there for a couple reasons but no excuses there were better shooters there.

Been doing it for roughly 2 yrs now give or take 6mth.

 

[JBoomhauer]

 

[Baron23]

eh...not seeing any magic here but may well be missing something. 140 ELD-M at 2,800, 72F, and 1k DA.

As for the OP, the below is from Hornady's free online 4DOF....so, why are you asking other people to post this info and not posting this yourself to make your point?

And you sure do have an interesting way of making friends.

Range	Velocity	Trajectory	ComeUp	ComeUp	WindDrift	WindDrift	WindDrift	TOF
(Yds)	(FPS)	(In)	(MOA)	(Mrads)	(In)	(MOA)	(Mrads)	(Sec)
0.0​	2800.0​	-2.0​	0.0​	0.0​	0.0​	0.0​	0.0​	0.0​
100.0​	2659.0​	6.4​	6.2​	1.8​	0.5​	0.5​	0.1​	0.1​
200.0​	2523.0​	10.0​	4.8​	1.4​	2.0​	1.0​	0.3​	0.2​
300.0​	2390.0​	8.0​	2.6​	0.7​	4.7​	1.5​	0.4​	0.3​
400.0​	2261.0​	0.0​	0.0​	0.0​	8.5​	2.0​	0.6​	0.5​
500.0​	2134.0​	-14.8​	-2.8​	-0.8​	13.7​	2.6​	0.8​	0.6​
600.0​	2009.0​	-37.3​	-5.9​	-1.7​	20.4​	3.2​	0.9​	0.8​
700.0​	1886.0​	-68.4​	-9.3​	-2.7​	28.6​	3.9​	1.1​	0.9​
800.0​	1763.0​	-109.2​	-13.0​	-3.8​	38.7​	4.6​	1.3​	1.1​
900.0​	1640.0​	-161.3​	-17.1​	-5.0​	50.9​	5.4​	1.6​	1.3​
1000.0​	1518.0​	-226.3​	-21.6​	-6.3​	65.5​	6.3​	1.8​	1.4​

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

not a terrible point, I like the effort - looks peachy, but 0.1mil = 36" at 1000yd and there is a lot more atmospherics/change in DA etc that can really get you off target IMO. I just know 1000yd shots are a definite dial specific situation for me and my skill level.

0.1 mil = 36" at 1000yds you say.... now its all starting to make sense.

 

[Jack Master]

Ill agree with that

the intention was more for UKD targets in 3-700yd zone that need to be hit quickly (no looking at DOPE card, no real thinking at all just put at correct mil hold and send - it'll be rather close from data so far

but yes my next goal is to actually shoot this style with the layout described and see real world results.

for clarity - This is your intention?

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

for clarity - This is your intention?
View attachment 7854195

Thats a reverse zero and would actually consider it with something like a LPVO for short to mid range quick acquisition. zeroing the 4mil hash mark on a 400yd target.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

for clarity - This is your intention?
View attachment 7854195

no,

2mil above center of reticle is 100y
2mil (1.8 but 2.0 for quick less precise) above center is 200
1mil above is 300y
center of circle is 400yd
1 mil under that would be 500y
2 mil under center 600y
3mil under center 700y

from there the trajectories get too much spread to be even kind of accurate so unless your specific cartridge hits money at 800 I consider past 3 mil under center to be no go zone for holds,

instead use the turret to dial specific DOPE and hold center of reticle using horizontal stadia for windage - which is just an adjusted number based on the delta you would already have from 100yd traditional DOPE.

so if 100yd data tells you 6.7mil @800
you'd add the delta between 400 and 800 for 100yd traditional DOPE (mine is 400-2.2; 800-6.7) so turret at 800yd target with 400yd zero (because turret would be set at 4.0 to correspond with distance in that 5mil range - above center 2, below center 3) holding at center of reticle would specifically read 8.5mil on turret

So 800 in new system would be the 4.0 that is the new 400yd center "zero" (really I only mean it to represent the center of reticle - for designing purposes) 4.0 plus delta of your 100yd DOPE from 400y to 800yd (4.5 for me - [2.2-6.7]) = 8.5 on turret and its considered a non-hold/high precision shot so the rule would be use center stadia for dialing shots/high precision.

but inside 700yd you would just hold most everything other than 100yd groups which again would then be a "high precision shot" and you'd dial and thus use center of reticle [100-0.0; 400-2.2]=2.2mil so 4.0-2.2 = 1.8. You would dial to the 1.8 mark on turret and that is your high precision, center hold answer.

In the end you would just have pic below as your "data" so you have removed any confusion from conversion - I got lost a couple times too so just made an excel sheet for simplicity - that is one of the big points to doing this simplicity in quick engagements 10" target 1-700ish, with the ability to dial when higher precision/more time is needed/available.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Another way to do convert your data quicker now that I look at that excel sheet is just add your 100yd HP turret solution (1.8mil for me) to every number you've already collected for traditional 100yd DOPE.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Further - if you hated holds and really wanted to use horizontal stadia you can dial the turret to corresponding yardages between 300-700yd under most circumstances. 580 = 5.8, use center/horizontal stadia for precise wind hold

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

eh...not seeing any magic here but may well be missing something. 140 ELD-M at 2,800, 72F, and 1k DA.

As for the OP, the below is from Hornady's free online 4DOF....so, why are you asking other people to post this info and not posting this yourself to make your point?

And you sure do have an interesting way of making friends.

Was asking for people to use their confirmed DOPE in their own ballistic solvers for more realistic data because I haven't shot your guns; but would like to use your real data - not the theoretical data that I already have used in multiple calibers to make the conclusions Ive already made.

Its an inbetween step between all only my theory (tryDOPE many calibers) - all only my reality (actual DOPE used on real targets with my system in place on the scope)...

Want to gauge how the system works for other peoples realities.
---------------
Im actually a fun guy in reality!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

This stuff has all been looked at and tried 100x over.

It doesn’t work except in rare circumstances where it lines up.

Otherwise, we would be telling people to zero at 100, then dial to 400yd dope, then slip turret to zero and adjust in 1 mil increments for 100yd increments.

Doesn’t work consistently. Not even part of the time.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Maybe so, but seems to work in a lot of cases that Ive tried.

 

[akmike47]

“What trigger should I get for my 10/22? I don’t let Kidd control my life”

 

[camocorvette]

 

[Superjet]

OP, give these guys a call!

https://quigleyford.com/

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

clever - I got everything I wanted out of this discussion, time to meme this into oblivion!

 

[Aftermath]

“What trigger should I get for my 10/22? I don’t let Kidd control my life”

TriggerTech Diamond. Yer gonna haf to do some moddin but, bro, once you get ti figured out....butta.

 

[theLBC]

69yds

/cause fuck it.

 

[akmike47]

TriggerTech Diamond. Yer gonna haf to do some moddin but, bro, once you get ti figured out....butta.

10/22 Trigger options

Are there options for light pull weight (at least 8 ozs.) triggers for a 10/22? Notice I said “options”. I prefer not to be boxed in by a single manufacturer.

www.snipershide.com

 

[akmike47]

69yds

/cause suck it.

FIFY

 

[6.5SH]

10/22 Trigger options

Are there options for light pull weight (at least 8 ozs.) triggers for a 10/22? Notice I said “options”. I prefer not to be boxed in by a single manufacturer.

www.snipershide.com

I will not be controlled!

 

[akmike47]

I will not be controlled!

Never thought a single word would drive someone so crazy

 

[6.5SH]

Never thought a single word would drive someone so crazy

It was truly an epic thread.

 

[Aftermath]

It was truly an epic thread.

No Kidd ing?

 

[Jack Master]

no,

2mil above center of reticle is 100y
2mil (1.8 but 2.0 for quick less precise) above center is 200
1mil above is 300y
center of circle is 400yd
1 mil under that would be 500y
2 mil under center 600y
3mil under center 700y

from there the trajectories get too much spread to be even kind of accurate so unless your specific cartridge hits money at 800 I consider past 3 mil under center to be no go zone for holds,

instead use the turret to dial specific DOPE and hold center of reticle using horizontal stadia for windage - which is just an adjusted number based on the delta you would already have from 100yd traditional DOPE.

so if 100yd data tells you 6.7mil @800
you'd add the delta between 400 and 800 for 100yd traditional DOPE (mine is 400-2.2; 800-6.7) so turret at 800yd target with 400yd zero (because turret would be set at 4.0 to correspond with distance in that 5mil range - above center 2, below center 3) holding at center of reticle would specifically read 8.5mil on turret

So 800 in new system would be the 4.0 that is the new 400yd center "zero" (really I only mean it to represent the center of reticle - for designing purposes) 4.0 plus delta of your 100yd DOPE from 400y to 800yd (4.5 for me - [2.2-6.7]) = 8.5 on turret and its considered a non-hold/high precision shot so the rule would be use center stadia for dialing shots/high precision.

but inside 700yd you would just hold most everything other than 100yd groups which again would then be a "high precision shot" and you'd dial and thus use center of reticle [100-0.0; 400-2.2]=2.2mil so 4.0-2.2 = 1.8. You would dial to the 1.8 mark on turret and that is your high precision, center hold answer.

In the end you would just have pic below as your "data" so you have removed any confusion from conversion - I got lost a couple times too so just made an excel sheet for simplicity - that is one of the big points to doing this simplicity in quick engagements 10" target 1-700ish, with the ability to dial when higher precision/more time is needed/available.

View attachment 7854231

So, This is what you are doing.

It's still the idea of Speed drop but adding the holdover/holdunder to it and your using the 400yd dope as your speed drop factor. Its the same system but being applied a little differently. If I could, I think I would (personal preference) still dial under my speed drop factor so I could holdover 3mil = 300, 4 mil = 400, 5mil=500 etc then be able to dial my normal dope for anything over 800 like the speed drop article shows.

 

[Long Range 338]

At what distance do you zero your bolt action rifle AND WHY?

(Mainly interested in people that use non-100yd zeros and dont shoot ELR - but still welcome all answers, should be enlightening)
If you do zero at 100yd now, but tried a different distance for awhile then decided to go back to 100yd: talk about why non-100yd zero made your life harder/why you went back to 100.
------------------------------------------------------------
EXAMPLE - a rifle used only to shoot at matches - You may decide to zero (center of reticle) at 300 and have your turret set at 3.0mil. When you shoot inside 300 you could hold in upper half at established DOPE. When shooting inside 700ish you hold/dial 0.1mil/10yd. Past 700 you dial in your DOPE.

Advantage being you can be quicker transitioning multiple mid range targets for majority of match play targets. Though the obvious comeback would be you know the distance to the say three targets you'll be engaging so you write those 3 numbers on your armband and its easier that way for you.

*But what if all of a sudden an 8" target pops up at an unknown range (like 583yd) and you need to hit it within ~15seconds? You mil it and get ~570-90. How would you tackle that?*

If you're wicked smart you may see the pattern and know to just add 0.8 to whatever your 500yd DOPE is. But Id wager not many people would know to do that under time.

So…. I didn’t bother to read all 4 pages but offhand I have to say you are creating a problem looking for a solution. A problem that’s been solved many many times.

100 yard zero because in your example this is for PRS matches. Matches are held all over the country and atmospheric conditions will be different at each location. 100 yard zero negates the issue…

Speed drop. Okay if you’re shooting s 308 or similar cartridge it’s quite useable. Now try that on a 6 Creedmoor. At 900 yards I’m not gonna hold over, I’m just gonna dial…

The only scenario a non 100 yard zero would be useful for (not the scenario you listed) is for hunting. After years of dialing/using mils/ffp scopes, I’ve no desire to go backwards and handicap myself. Yes maximum point blank range is a thing (from the 90s) but why go backwards? You can shoot black powder and it’s fun but don’t come onto a forum that considers itself cutting edge to ask for detailed information on methods no longer used.

Welcome to the hide, you seem to have sufficiently thick skin. You’ll do fine here…

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

appreciate the thoughts guys

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

double

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Next topic I plan on addressing is wind calls <1.5s vs over 1.5s TOF - should be fun

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/gun-mph-wind-bracket-rose/

or this one

 

[CBaker124]

Before I started shooting blanks I used to zero at 69 that way I didn’t have to worry about holding over and missing low. When I pulled I knew I was going to hit somewhere between the upper part of the target body and where the first shot penetrated regardless of the ammo’s muzzle velocity I was shooting that day/night or the shooting position I was in. Although tight groups are nice I learned it’s not always about that, sometimes it’s just about having fun punching a hole or two in your target and knowing you’re POI is going to land in a safe place. Worked pretty well, usually always landed somewhere on the target. If you’re shooting suppressed though, you have nothing to worry about, set your zero wherever. Nowadays I just keep the crosshairs on my scope fixed on my initial point of impact and let her rip, it’s a whole hell of a lot easier and I never miss.

 

[308pirate]

Next topic I plan on addressing is wind calls <1.5s vs over 1.5s TOF - should be fun

I suggest that you do some more shooting instead

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I suggest that you do some more shooting instead

shot a match yesterday....will that count - wise sage of the seven seas?

 

[smoothy8500]

shot a match yesterday...

I'm curious, how did it go? Did you use the 400yd zero? What worked/didn't work?

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Shot it with 100yd zero, went great inside 700yd. 900yd I sucked, multiple reasons why - live and learn.

My 400yd center idea revolves around a specific reticle, that is what would in theory make everything work fastest - Id have to get the design etched and put into a scope to truly test that viability.

But I could try it with my other scope (Mark5 3-18) once I get my LMT AR10 from factory...question really isn't if it can work with one persons rifle, I think we can all agree that can happen easy. The part in question is can it work over a wider variety of gun/cartridge platforms with similar results.

 

[Baron23]

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

lol, you do see how that is exactly how I view this