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USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle BUILD FINISHED!!
- Thread starter BasraBoy
- Start date
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Finally got my paws on the rifle yesterday.
Must say I was surprised at how light it felt compare to, say a No4T....it looked so "chunky".
Also well balanced. Apart from when picking the rifle up and handling it, you are never really aware of the 24" optic on the top.
I thought I'd just post some more pics of the points mentioned during the thread so far to show the finished articles.
First, the heavy checked butt plate - it was a perfect fit with no need to remove wood to get it aligned and sitting right.
The front mount and scope block
The rear mount and scope block
A couple of shots of the handguard
The finished electric pencilled bolt - polished and blued
The polished bolt rails - a tricky job, done by hand. Action is pretty smooth but still a little more sticky than I'd like and should improve with use.
Paul polished the mag floorplate as he'd read this was also done
Those stock stamps (left side)
Pistol grip - note the repair to the chip.....Paul had done a great job sticking the chips back and sanding/profiling but there was still a "scar" where the filler showed. I rubbed a linseed oil/black furnitre wax mix into it and polished it with a cloth...hides it well. Will continue to do this and build up the layers.
Continued........
Finally got my paws on the rifle yesterday.
Must say I was surprised at how light it felt compare to, say a No4T....it looked so "chunky".
Also well balanced. Apart from when picking the rifle up and handling it, you are never really aware of the 24" optic on the top.
I thought I'd just post some more pics of the points mentioned during the thread so far to show the finished articles.
First, the heavy checked butt plate - it was a perfect fit with no need to remove wood to get it aligned and sitting right.
The front mount and scope block
The rear mount and scope block
A couple of shots of the handguard
The finished electric pencilled bolt - polished and blued
The polished bolt rails - a tricky job, done by hand. Action is pretty smooth but still a little more sticky than I'd like and should improve with use.
Paul polished the mag floorplate as he'd read this was also done
Those stock stamps (left side)
Pistol grip - note the repair to the chip.....Paul had done a great job sticking the chips back and sanding/profiling but there was still a "scar" where the filler showed. I rubbed a linseed oil/black furnitre wax mix into it and polished it with a cloth...hides it well. Will continue to do this and build up the layers.
Continued........
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Was surprised at the minimal clearance on the bolt - not sure if this is because it is a later replacement or if this would have been the case on the orginal pre-'44 bolt.
I tried to get a shot of the barrel markings (11-32) but it didn't come out too well!!
And finally....a couple more pics of the finished article:
..and couldn't resist a "family snapshot"!
This has been a really interesting build and I am really pleased with the results so far. The interest this thread has been amazing - a real indication of the fascination in, not only the subject in general, but in the USMC 1903A1 in particular.
Thanks to all the guys who helped with info and practical help.
I really hope you enjoyed watching it come together as much as I did!
WIll have to wait a couple of weeks now to get it out to the range (work always gets in the way of having fun!!)....then, the range report!
Was surprised at the minimal clearance on the bolt - not sure if this is because it is a later replacement or if this would have been the case on the orginal pre-'44 bolt.
I tried to get a shot of the barrel markings (11-32) but it didn't come out too well!!
And finally....a couple more pics of the finished article:
..and couldn't resist a "family snapshot"!
This has been a really interesting build and I am really pleased with the results so far. The interest this thread has been amazing - a real indication of the fascination in, not only the subject in general, but in the USMC 1903A1 in particular.
Thanks to all the guys who helped with info and practical help.
I really hope you enjoyed watching it come together as much as I did!
WIll have to wait a couple of weeks now to get it out to the range (work always gets in the way of having fun!!)....then, the range report!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was surprised at the minimal clearance on the bolt - not sure if this is because it is a later replacement or if this would have been the case on the orginal pre-'44 bolt. </div></div>
Some rifles had a notch added to the bolt handle to increase this clearance, I`d guess it was done on an as needed basis.
My bolt handle cleared with no problem once the scope was sighted in- you also have the option of pushing the scope as far forward as needed to open and close the bolt and then pull it back into battery before firing. Would be easy to use your extra recoil stop ring to limit the scope back and forth movement to just what you need to clear the bolt, if clearance does prove an issue after you`re sighted in.
Very, very nice project- well worth the time and effort.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was surprised at the minimal clearance on the bolt - not sure if this is because it is a later replacement or if this would have been the case on the orginal pre-'44 bolt. </div></div>
Some rifles had a notch added to the bolt handle to increase this clearance, I`d guess it was done on an as needed basis.
My bolt handle cleared with no problem once the scope was sighted in- you also have the option of pushing the scope as far forward as needed to open and close the bolt and then pull it back into battery before firing. Would be easy to use your extra recoil stop ring to limit the scope back and forth movement to just what you need to clear the bolt, if clearance does prove an issue after you`re sighted in.
Very, very nice project- well worth the time and effort.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Very, very nice! Congratulations, and we'll look forward to a glowing report from the range in the near future.
That's quite a "family"!
Cheers... JIm
Very, very nice! Congratulations, and we'll look forward to a glowing report from the range in the near future.
That's quite a "family"!
Cheers... JIm
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
DV, Jim - thanks!
On the scope clearance, Paul did mention that he could take the handle down a little if necessary but I think I'll just run the scope forward and then return to battery and see how that goes.
Just running the action and dry firing it doesn't seem too much of a problem.
On a separate note, trigger weighed in at a 5lb pull but feels a lot lighter. We can't polish it or take any more metal off as it has already been worked as far as Paul feels is safe in the past. There's a little bit of slack from wear in the second stage. But I'm going to see how it goes before thinking about replacing the original trigger.
DV, Jim - thanks!
On the scope clearance, Paul did mention that he could take the handle down a little if necessary but I think I'll just run the scope forward and then return to battery and see how that goes.
Just running the action and dry firing it doesn't seem too much of a problem.
On a separate note, trigger weighed in at a 5lb pull but feels a lot lighter. We can't polish it or take any more metal off as it has already been worked as far as Paul feels is safe in the past. There's a little bit of slack from wear in the second stage. But I'm going to see how it goes before thinking about replacing the original trigger.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Look at my pics on the first page to see the scallop cut in the bolt handle. Where your rifle zeroes will determine the height of the tube (externally adjustable). If you are hitting when zeroed and do not want to cut the bolt, then just move zero up to a farther distance and the tube will go up. If you are hitting the tube and rely solely on pushing the scope forward before you cycle the bolt...I guarantee you will forget sooner or later and whack the scope tube.
Mine is zeroed at 200 yards and it looks like it would have been very close. The height of the front block determines the height of the scope and I can not remember exactly which block I used but it was a Unertl block and it was within .025" of the USMC height, or dead on. Here is a pic
Look at my pics on the first page to see the scallop cut in the bolt handle. Where your rifle zeroes will determine the height of the tube (externally adjustable). If you are hitting when zeroed and do not want to cut the bolt, then just move zero up to a farther distance and the tube will go up. If you are hitting the tube and rely solely on pushing the scope forward before you cycle the bolt...I guarantee you will forget sooner or later and whack the scope tube.
Mine is zeroed at 200 yards and it looks like it would have been very close. The height of the front block determines the height of the scope and I can not remember exactly which block I used but it was a Unertl block and it was within .025" of the USMC height, or dead on. Here is a pic
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
dieselten - thanks for that. Senich points out that this was done as either a modification or replacement part on USMC rifles post-WW2.
Rifle has been bore sighted at 100yds. Let's see how it goes at longer distances.
But.....I agree - probably better to look into doing the bolt handle rather than rely on cycling before returning to battery - UK proof law allowing.
dieselten - thanks for that. Senich points out that this was done as either a modification or replacement part on USMC rifles post-WW2.
Rifle has been bore sighted at 100yds. Let's see how it goes at longer distances.
But.....I agree - probably better to look into doing the bolt handle rather than rely on cycling before returning to battery - UK proof law allowing.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greyson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My God! This thing rocks.</div></div>
Thanks greyson!
You were doing so well......
and then came the words guaranted to make my blood boil!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greyson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">......a wall hanger.</div></div>
Go after one by all means....but PLEASE don't write these old rifles off!
I regularly shoot my 1915 dated SMLE Enfield. 97 years and two World Wars old....still a great shooter. As are all my WW2 vintage rifles.
Build one that works, does what it was designed to do and makes you want to pick it up and shoot the b*ll*cks off it!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greyson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My God! This thing rocks.</div></div>
Thanks greyson!
You were doing so well......
and then came the words guaranted to make my blood boil!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greyson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">......a wall hanger.</div></div>
Go after one by all means....but PLEASE don't write these old rifles off!
I regularly shoot my 1915 dated SMLE Enfield. 97 years and two World Wars old....still a great shooter. As are all my WW2 vintage rifles.
Build one that works, does what it was designed to do and makes you want to pick it up and shoot the b*ll*cks off it!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Good news today....there are no UK re-proof requirements on scallop cutting the bolt handle if needs be!
Good news today....there are no UK re-proof requirements on scallop cutting the bolt handle if needs be!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
That`s good news!
With my scope set at the center of the rear mount for elevation and windage the bolt touched the scope tube- once it was zeroed (which of course moved the tube position) I had plenty of clearance between the tube and the bolt handle.
That`s good news!
With my scope set at the center of the rear mount for elevation and windage the bolt touched the scope tube- once it was zeroed (which of course moved the tube position) I had plenty of clearance between the tube and the bolt handle.
![url]](http://[IMG][url="http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n572/SniperBurden/DSC_0867_1-Copy.jpg"]http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n572/SniperBurden/DSC_0867_1-Copy.jpg[/url])
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..and couldn't resist a "family snapshot"!
</div></div>
Basra, Heck of a good collection you've got going! I'm guessing you'll want to add a Russian, Japanese, Swiss and Swedish sniper to really round out that family.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..and couldn't resist a "family snapshot"!
Basra, Heck of a good collection you've got going! I'm guessing you'll want to add a Russian, Japanese, Swiss and Swedish sniper to really round out that family.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
ranger.....thanks, mate.....but damn, you're a bad influence!! Remind me to stay out of the way if we ever go drinking!
I've got a '43 byf Mauser with a Zielsechs on the way from Ed at Miltech (got a bit of a soft spot for them really!)
Joop's got my interest going in the Mosin.
I have a Finnish capture PEM scope that I bought from the family of the original owner....but finding a good wartime manufacture VKT or Sako M39 to put it on is going to be like finding the Holy Grail over here!
ranger.....thanks, mate.....but damn, you're a bad influence!! Remind me to stay out of the way if we ever go drinking!
I've got a '43 byf Mauser with a Zielsechs on the way from Ed at Miltech (got a bit of a soft spot for them really!)
Joop's got my interest going in the Mosin.
I have a Finnish capture PEM scope that I bought from the family of the original owner....but finding a good wartime manufacture VKT or Sako M39 to put it on is going to be like finding the Holy Grail over here!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Thanks Arctic!
Paul has now posted his build article on the website:
http://www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk/
Go to the Armourer's Notes on the left and scroll down to the 1903A1 buld and click.
Took the rifle out for the first time yesterday. 300yds, conditions were "interesting" - overcast with full wind from left averaging Strong (16+mph) and gusting to Very Strong (20+mph).
Final elevation was 5.5MOA up from my 100yd zero set by Paul...should probably have pulled back by 0.5MOA, but was too busy with the wind to worry too much about that
Was holding for wind, no adjustment made to Paul's original zero on this...conditions made working on that pointless. First sighter was low and left (too much hold off) and a couple of mid-string flyers (2 and 8) pushed off to the right when I was caught out by gusts....otherwise I was pretty happy for a first time out.
Ammo was HPS Targetmaster custom using 175Gr SMK with the load giving MV of 2.640 fps to replicate orignal M1 Ball
No target to scan (it was the standard NRA UK 300yd target used at Bisley - V is 3.3", Bull is 5.5", Inner 11") but FWIW here's the score card:
With no subtensions in the reticle to help, yesterday was all down to SWAG on the wind.
I was very much aware how spoilt we can become using modern scopes. It really made me appreciate the art and the skill of the guys who had to use this scope under combat conditions! I've got a long way to go to catch up!
The rifle performed faultlessly. I did forget to pull the scope back into battery once (on 6)
. With the 300yd zero there was no issue on scope clearance with the bolt.
The rifle felt very well balanced, I was never aware of the length of the scope when shooting - but it does get in the way when trying to get hold of the rifle for carrying!
I have noticed two minor issues with the scope and adjusters...
(1) the turrets are screwd down very tightly and, for fear of buggering up the sloted head, I have not tried to force them undone to reset the turrets to "0".
(2) the Objective and Sun Shade should unscrew independently - one to set parallax, the other to lock the parallax setting in place. At the moment they are locked together. Again I didn't want to use excessisve force for fear of damaging anything. So, a trip over to Richard and Mike at Parsons is now on the cards for the scope for a full service so it will be in 100% shape. Paul didn't want to do this, preferring to defer to someone with the correct experience and tools to do the job safely.
The trigger, although measured at a 5lb pull by Paul felt a lot lighter. There is a little slack in the first stage but this was not a problem and the release is crisp - felt very consistent.
Will go for a more "scientific" test and fine tune the zero at 100m off a rest and rear bag (with target as evidence) as soon as work comitments and weather allow......
Just for reference....here's the view thru the scope taken before the build started..neigbours truck/barn is ranged at 198yds from my back window;
Thanks Arctic!
Paul has now posted his build article on the website:
http://www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk/
Go to the Armourer's Notes on the left and scroll down to the 1903A1 buld and click.
Took the rifle out for the first time yesterday. 300yds, conditions were "interesting" - overcast with full wind from left averaging Strong (16+mph) and gusting to Very Strong (20+mph).
Final elevation was 5.5MOA up from my 100yd zero set by Paul...should probably have pulled back by 0.5MOA, but was too busy with the wind to worry too much about that
Was holding for wind, no adjustment made to Paul's original zero on this...conditions made working on that pointless. First sighter was low and left (too much hold off) and a couple of mid-string flyers (2 and 8) pushed off to the right when I was caught out by gusts....otherwise I was pretty happy for a first time out.
Ammo was HPS Targetmaster custom using 175Gr SMK with the load giving MV of 2.640 fps to replicate orignal M1 Ball
No target to scan (it was the standard NRA UK 300yd target used at Bisley - V is 3.3", Bull is 5.5", Inner 11") but FWIW here's the score card:
With no subtensions in the reticle to help, yesterday was all down to SWAG on the wind.
I was very much aware how spoilt we can become using modern scopes. It really made me appreciate the art and the skill of the guys who had to use this scope under combat conditions! I've got a long way to go to catch up!
The rifle performed faultlessly. I did forget to pull the scope back into battery once (on 6)
The rifle felt very well balanced, I was never aware of the length of the scope when shooting - but it does get in the way when trying to get hold of the rifle for carrying!
I have noticed two minor issues with the scope and adjusters...
(1) the turrets are screwd down very tightly and, for fear of buggering up the sloted head, I have not tried to force them undone to reset the turrets to "0".
(2) the Objective and Sun Shade should unscrew independently - one to set parallax, the other to lock the parallax setting in place. At the moment they are locked together. Again I didn't want to use excessisve force for fear of damaging anything. So, a trip over to Richard and Mike at Parsons is now on the cards for the scope for a full service so it will be in 100% shape. Paul didn't want to do this, preferring to defer to someone with the correct experience and tools to do the job safely.
The trigger, although measured at a 5lb pull by Paul felt a lot lighter. There is a little slack in the first stage but this was not a problem and the release is crisp - felt very consistent.
Will go for a more "scientific" test and fine tune the zero at 100m off a rest and rear bag (with target as evidence) as soon as work comitments and weather allow......
Just for reference....here's the view thru the scope taken before the build started..neigbours truck/barn is ranged at 198yds from my back window;
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Congrates on a nice m1941 clone, I read that you didn't know who made your stock, its a Keystone replacement used for both the 03 and the 03a3 durring rebuilds, you can see the cutout for the 03a3 handguard ring at the rear of the sight base, and you can also make out a faint backwards K in the cutoff.
Your bolt looks too be a Remington 03a3 bolt that you have numbered in the wrong direction, Remington didn't start 03a3 production untell 1943 the middle of the war, a NS bolt would be correct for the rifles ser number and vintage 41', whatever you do don't notch the bolt handle it may come close too the scope but original M1941 rifles were like that.
You also have a fine checkered but plate NOT the heavy/course. The fine checkered but plate would have been correct for a 03a1 rifle untell thay ran out, with your rifles high ser number 1.51 a smooth but plate that had been stippled with a punch would look more correct, I myself like the fine checkered, so its your call.
Congrates on a nice m1941 clone, I read that you didn't know who made your stock, its a Keystone replacement used for both the 03 and the 03a3 durring rebuilds, you can see the cutout for the 03a3 handguard ring at the rear of the sight base, and you can also make out a faint backwards K in the cutoff.
Your bolt looks too be a Remington 03a3 bolt that you have numbered in the wrong direction, Remington didn't start 03a3 production untell 1943 the middle of the war, a NS bolt would be correct for the rifles ser number and vintage 41', whatever you do don't notch the bolt handle it may come close too the scope but original M1941 rifles were like that.
You also have a fine checkered but plate NOT the heavy/course. The fine checkered but plate would have been correct for a 03a1 rifle untell thay ran out, with your rifles high ser number 1.51 a smooth but plate that had been stippled with a punch would look more correct, I myself like the fine checkered, so its your call.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Phil
Thanks for your comments. Glad you like the rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I read that you didn't know who made your stock, its a Keystone replacement used for both the 03 and the 03a3 durring rebuilds, you can see the cutout for the 03a3 handguard ring at the rear of the sight base, and you can also make out a faint backwards K in the cutoff. </div></div>
Good call on the K marking, thanks! That would tie in with the arsenal refinish that the seller advised the rifle had gone through.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your bolt looks too be a Remington 03a3 bolt that you have numbered in the wrong direction, Remington didn't start 03a3 production untell 1943 the middle of the war, a NS bolt would be correct for the rifles ser number and vintage 41'</div></div>
We have already established that this is a late war replacement. Possibly fitted at the time of the rebuild? On the production dates for this pattern of bolt, the sources I've read indicate these bolts were introduced in 1944....but whatever, I'm not too bothered on the exact dates....it is as it is and it is part of the history of this specific rifle...
We have already covered the issues in replacing or reworking a bolt under UK proof law, a replacement bolt would a need full UK Proof testing in the rifle. Not to mention the challenges and potential costs in sourcing sufficient replacements in order to find one that gives correct headspace, it's just not feasible.
On the bolt numbering...this is deliberately "reversed" as one of the steps Paul took to ensure that any later owner or dealer would have a problem selling this as anything other than a replica. Seems as thought it worked as you picked up on it!
As a note, the barrel channel is also stamped with his personal armourer's mark (in the tradition of the USMC armourers), again an obvious discrepancy for anyone bothering to check.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> whatever you do don't notch the bolt handle it may come close too the scope but original M1941 rifles were like that. </div></div>
That's not going to happen as the bolt has more than enough clearance once sighted at 300yds+. Even at 100 it cycles fine with due care. However, post WW2 it was again common for bolt handles to be notched due to the exact issue you mention. So, maybe there is an argument to notch it to be in keeping with the donor rifle's post war rebuild??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You also have a fine checkered but plate NOT the heavy/course. The fine checkered but plate would have been correct for a 03a1 rifle untell thay ran out, with your rifles high ser number 1.51 a smooth but plate that had been stippled with a punch would look more correct, I myself like the fine checkered, so its your call.
</div></div>
Sorry Phil, you are wrong on the butt plate - it is the correct coarse chequer which was an original feature of the USMC 1941 rifle. You can tell this by the number of chequers (12 per 1"...yes, I have measured these...plus I also have the original 16/1" fine chequer plate that we took off the rifle to fit this one). Side by side pics of both are posted on Paul's build notes on his website.
Given the constraints we worked under, I'd be the first to admit that there will always be discrepancies between this rifle and an original.
Then that opens a whole can of worms discussion about what is original.....is it the day it left the USMC Armourer's or how it ended up after 15/20 years active service with whatever repairs/modifications/replacement parts that may have had to be made along the way??
If anyone is looking for 100% historical accuracy I'd advise that they go and track down a certified original with proven provenance.
In closing I would refer you back to the first post in this thread:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The scope of the project is to build a replica of this historic rifle that can be used and shot without fear of damaging an irreplaceable original but that replicates as close as possible and within a reasonable budget, the experience of firing the original rifle.
This is not intended to be a 100% clone, nor is this is designed to fool collectors (a "fake").
However we will be using vintage and authentic parts wherever practical and financially viable to do so. </div></div>
Phil
Thanks for your comments. Glad you like the rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I read that you didn't know who made your stock, its a Keystone replacement used for both the 03 and the 03a3 durring rebuilds, you can see the cutout for the 03a3 handguard ring at the rear of the sight base, and you can also make out a faint backwards K in the cutoff. </div></div>
Good call on the K marking, thanks! That would tie in with the arsenal refinish that the seller advised the rifle had gone through.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your bolt looks too be a Remington 03a3 bolt that you have numbered in the wrong direction, Remington didn't start 03a3 production untell 1943 the middle of the war, a NS bolt would be correct for the rifles ser number and vintage 41'</div></div>
We have already established that this is a late war replacement. Possibly fitted at the time of the rebuild? On the production dates for this pattern of bolt, the sources I've read indicate these bolts were introduced in 1944....but whatever, I'm not too bothered on the exact dates....it is as it is and it is part of the history of this specific rifle...
We have already covered the issues in replacing or reworking a bolt under UK proof law, a replacement bolt would a need full UK Proof testing in the rifle. Not to mention the challenges and potential costs in sourcing sufficient replacements in order to find one that gives correct headspace, it's just not feasible.
On the bolt numbering...this is deliberately "reversed" as one of the steps Paul took to ensure that any later owner or dealer would have a problem selling this as anything other than a replica. Seems as thought it worked as you picked up on it!
As a note, the barrel channel is also stamped with his personal armourer's mark (in the tradition of the USMC armourers), again an obvious discrepancy for anyone bothering to check.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> whatever you do don't notch the bolt handle it may come close too the scope but original M1941 rifles were like that. </div></div>
That's not going to happen as the bolt has more than enough clearance once sighted at 300yds+. Even at 100 it cycles fine with due care. However, post WW2 it was again common for bolt handles to be notched due to the exact issue you mention. So, maybe there is an argument to notch it to be in keeping with the donor rifle's post war rebuild??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil McGrath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You also have a fine checkered but plate NOT the heavy/course. The fine checkered but plate would have been correct for a 03a1 rifle untell thay ran out, with your rifles high ser number 1.51 a smooth but plate that had been stippled with a punch would look more correct, I myself like the fine checkered, so its your call.
</div></div>
Sorry Phil, you are wrong on the butt plate - it is the correct coarse chequer which was an original feature of the USMC 1941 rifle. You can tell this by the number of chequers (12 per 1"...yes, I have measured these...plus I also have the original 16/1" fine chequer plate that we took off the rifle to fit this one). Side by side pics of both are posted on Paul's build notes on his website.
Given the constraints we worked under, I'd be the first to admit that there will always be discrepancies between this rifle and an original.
Then that opens a whole can of worms discussion about what is original.....is it the day it left the USMC Armourer's or how it ended up after 15/20 years active service with whatever repairs/modifications/replacement parts that may have had to be made along the way??
If anyone is looking for 100% historical accuracy I'd advise that they go and track down a certified original with proven provenance.
In closing I would refer you back to the first post in this thread:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The scope of the project is to build a replica of this historic rifle that can be used and shot without fear of damaging an irreplaceable original but that replicates as close as possible and within a reasonable budget, the experience of firing the original rifle.
This is not intended to be a 100% clone, nor is this is designed to fool collectors (a "fake").
However we will be using vintage and authentic parts wherever practical and financially viable to do so. </div></div>
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
You have a sweet looking rifle and I'm very envious of you, have you thought about posting some of your pictures over at www.jouster.com
You have a sweet looking rifle and I'm very envious of you, have you thought about posting some of your pictures over at www.jouster.com
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Thanks Phil.
No, I hadn't thought about posting elsewhere.
So many forums, so little time!
Thanks Phil.
No, I hadn't thought about posting elsewhere.
So many forums, so little time!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
A congrats and very well done !!
I would have to take my first fall whitetail with that ole gal.. just because. gotta love em. I appreciate the new and modern black sniper rigs BUT they just do not give the same warm and fuzzy these old wood and chrome moly gals do. very best
A congrats and very well done !!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
BB,
Your project motivated me to finish mine.
1.53 mil S/N
CMP stock with Findley stamps
new 9-44 Springfied barrel
8X 1-1/4 Unertl
I know...it needs a correct sling.
Trilogymac
BB,
Your project motivated me to finish mine.
1.53 mil S/N
CMP stock with Findley stamps
new 9-44 Springfied barrel
8X 1-1/4 Unertl
I know...it needs a correct sling.
Trilogymac
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
TM - that looks like a really nice job! Congrats!
I hope you enjoy shooting it as much as I'm enjoying mine.
...and it looks like you've got some other interesting stuff in the cabinet too??!
TM - that looks like a really nice job! Congrats!
I hope you enjoy shooting it as much as I'm enjoying mine.
...and it looks like you've got some other interesting stuff in the cabinet too??!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
It appears that the bolt is not modified, am I correct. Also, did you use 7.2" center to center spacing for the scope bases. Any tricks to drilling and tapping the receiver, I herd they can be quite hard.
It appears that the bolt is not modified, am I correct. Also, did you use 7.2" center to center spacing for the scope bases. Any tricks to drilling and tapping the receiver, I herd they can be quite hard.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle BUILD FINISHED!!
Oh wow! I think I just found my new favourite thread.
Very nice rifle. Love your K98 and No.4T too.
I'm also fairly certain that M1941 bolts were standard/not modified, that was only done on the A4s, so the low amount of clearance is probably normal.
Oh wow! I think I just found my new favourite thread.
Very nice rifle. Love your K98 and No.4T too.
I'm also fairly certain that M1941 bolts were standard/not modified, that was only done on the A4s, so the low amount of clearance is probably normal.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle BUILD FINISHED!!
Very nice rifle! Beautiful collection that anyone would be darned proud to own.
Very nice rifle! Beautiful collection that anyone would be darned proud to own.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Thanks guys.
Again, it is great to see so much appreciation for all the hard work that was put in...especially by Paul Green at Thames Valley Guns here in the UK.
Paul is a great bloke and I have no hesitation to recommending him to anyone here in the UK who has any classic rifles that either need some routine maintenance, a complete refurb/sympathetic restoration or if you have a project you want to do.
Both the No4T and the Springfield are great examples of his work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CPT-DAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears that the bolt is not modified, am I correct. Also, did you use 7.2" center to center spacing for the scope bases. Any tricks to drilling and tapping the receiver, I herd they can be quite hard. </div></div>
Cpt-Dan, I have not modified the bolt handle as, once zero'd at 300yds, the clearance is fine.
We used the 7.2" spacing - correct for the rifle/scope - this gives 1/4 MOA clicks. Elsewhere in the thread I have given info which I found on spacings for other click values.
On the spacing, we decided to follow the route of butting the rear block up against the rear sight ramp. The spacing is then measured from centre to centre. However some picture references also show the block set back on the rear ring. You make your choice, either is correct.
There were no particular difficulties that Paul reported on drilling and tapping other than we could not find the correct size taps in the UK so had to swap the screws out and drill/tap for a more easily available size.
Prior to drilling/tapping, Paul removed the parkerizing in the area under the blocks to give a metal to metal finish (as was originally done).
The barrel/action were put on an engineering bed and clocked to ensure the scope and blocks were properly centred/aligned to the bore.
On assembly a thin layer of graphite paste was used between the blocks and barrel/receiver to protect the metal from moisture and rust.
The screws were loctited into place rather than the more historically accurate staking as Paul thought that this was a more secure and less destructive method of fixing.
Hope this helps?
Thanks guys.
Again, it is great to see so much appreciation for all the hard work that was put in...especially by Paul Green at Thames Valley Guns here in the UK.
Paul is a great bloke and I have no hesitation to recommending him to anyone here in the UK who has any classic rifles that either need some routine maintenance, a complete refurb/sympathetic restoration or if you have a project you want to do.
Both the No4T and the Springfield are great examples of his work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CPT-DAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears that the bolt is not modified, am I correct. Also, did you use 7.2" center to center spacing for the scope bases. Any tricks to drilling and tapping the receiver, I herd they can be quite hard. </div></div>
Cpt-Dan, I have not modified the bolt handle as, once zero'd at 300yds, the clearance is fine.
We used the 7.2" spacing - correct for the rifle/scope - this gives 1/4 MOA clicks. Elsewhere in the thread I have given info which I found on spacings for other click values.
On the spacing, we decided to follow the route of butting the rear block up against the rear sight ramp. The spacing is then measured from centre to centre. However some picture references also show the block set back on the rear ring. You make your choice, either is correct.
There were no particular difficulties that Paul reported on drilling and tapping other than we could not find the correct size taps in the UK so had to swap the screws out and drill/tap for a more easily available size.
Prior to drilling/tapping, Paul removed the parkerizing in the area under the blocks to give a metal to metal finish (as was originally done).
The barrel/action were put on an engineering bed and clocked to ensure the scope and blocks were properly centred/aligned to the bore.
On assembly a thin layer of graphite paste was used between the blocks and barrel/receiver to protect the metal from moisture and rust.
The screws were loctited into place rather than the more historically accurate staking as Paul thought that this was a more secure and less destructive method of fixing.
Hope this helps?
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Having looked around a bit more, the M1941 sniper rifles did have a scope clearance notch on the bolt, but the bolt wan't bent like on the A4.
Having looked around a bit more, the M1941 sniper rifles did have a scope clearance notch on the bolt, but the bolt wan't bent like on the A4.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMC-M1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having looked around a bit more, the M1941 sniper rifles did have a scope clearance notch on the bolt, but the bolt wan't bent like on the A4.
</div></div>
That was a modification that appeared post WW2 as a result of experience of the limited clearance on the unmodified bolt.
There's a lot of good source material on these rifles, I can recommend Senich's "USMC Scout Sniper, WW2 and Korea" as a starting point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMC-M1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having looked around a bit more, the M1941 sniper rifles did have a scope clearance notch on the bolt, but the bolt wan't bent like on the A4.
That was a modification that appeared post WW2 as a result of experience of the limited clearance on the unmodified bolt.
There's a lot of good source material on these rifles, I can recommend Senich's "USMC Scout Sniper, WW2 and Korea" as a starting point.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMC-M1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having looked around a bit more, the M1941 sniper rifles did have a scope clearance notch on the bolt, but the bolt wan't bent like on the A4.
</div></div>
That was a modification that appeared post WW2 as a result of experience of the limited clearance on the unmodified bolt.
There's a lot of good source material on these rifles, I can recommend Senich's "USMC Scout Sniper, WW2 and Korea" as a starting point.</div></div>
Ah, that would make sense. I was confused as to why some did seem to have the notch and some didn't.
All the photos I've seen of them previously seem to have no notch (mostly WW2 photos which would explain why), I just happened to come across a photo and article showing the notch.
Thanks for the tip, I'll take a look.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMC-M1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having looked around a bit more, the M1941 sniper rifles did have a scope clearance notch on the bolt, but the bolt wan't bent like on the A4.
That was a modification that appeared post WW2 as a result of experience of the limited clearance on the unmodified bolt.
There's a lot of good source material on these rifles, I can recommend Senich's "USMC Scout Sniper, WW2 and Korea" as a starting point.</div></div>
Ah, that would make sense. I was confused as to why some did seem to have the notch and some didn't.
Thanks for the tip, I'll take a look.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Pictures of your project have been a great help. I drilled and tapped my rifle with no problems. I used the 7.2" spacing. Just bore sighted my rifle and the bolt hits the scope. I was ready to put the bolt in the mill but saw your comment about the 300 yard zero. Will zero rifle and see if notching bolt is needed. Dan
Pictures of your project have been a great help. I drilled and tapped my rifle with no problems. I used the 7.2" spacing. Just bore sighted my rifle and the bolt hits the scope. I was ready to put the bolt in the mill but saw your comment about the 300 yard zero. Will zero rifle and see if notching bolt is needed. Dan
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Dan, glad it helped.
When I got my rifle back from the smith it had been boresighted at 100yds and, though the clearance was tight, the bolt was not contacting the scope tube. It was workable with care.
What distance have you bore sighted to?
I was surprised how much the clearance opened up with the change to a 300yd zero, it is now around 2/16" at the closest point. That doesn't sound a lot but the bolt can be worked hard without any problem...hard to get a clear pic but hope this helps:
If you are not running a recoil spring on the scope, it can help if you cycle the bolt before pulling the scope back into battery.
Dan, glad it helped.
When I got my rifle back from the smith it had been boresighted at 100yds and, though the clearance was tight, the bolt was not contacting the scope tube. It was workable with care.
What distance have you bore sighted to?
I was surprised how much the clearance opened up with the change to a 300yd zero, it is now around 2/16" at the closest point. That doesn't sound a lot but the bolt can be worked hard without any problem...hard to get a clear pic but hope this helps:
If you are not running a recoil spring on the scope, it can help if you cycle the bolt before pulling the scope back into battery.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Dan/BB,
Good morning.
When fitting mine up , I had slight contact with a 100yrd zero. I used a dremmel, thinned the bolt handle a little, maintaining the same contour. I did all finish work after mock up and function testing. Mine looks just like Andy's.
Hope this helps.
Trilogymac
Dan/BB,
Good morning.
When fitting mine up , I had slight contact with a 100yrd zero. I used a dremmel, thinned the bolt handle a little, maintaining the same contour. I did all finish work after mock up and function testing. Mine looks just like Andy's.
Hope this helps.
Trilogymac
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
I finished my 23RD hour project last night and shot it today. With a 300 yard zero the bolt clears the scope but minimally. I never considered just thinning the bolt, good idea. I installed a Hi-Lux USMC copy. I am not happy with it. It does not seem to adjust by 1/4 minutes. Plan to put a Unertl on the gun. I met John Unertl at Camp Perry many years ago. I used a Unertl spotting and 100MM team scope for coaching but as a service rifle shooter had no interest in the rifle scopes. Leaving for Camp Perry Monday for the Vintage Match. Thanks for the help from the UK and Texas.
I finished my 23RD hour project last night and shot it today. With a 300 yard zero the bolt clears the scope but minimally. I never considered just thinning the bolt, good idea. I installed a Hi-Lux USMC copy. I am not happy with it. It does not seem to adjust by 1/4 minutes. Plan to put a Unertl on the gun. I met John Unertl at Camp Perry many years ago. I used a Unertl spotting and 100MM team scope for coaching but as a service rifle shooter had no interest in the rifle scopes. Leaving for Camp Perry Monday for the Vintage Match. Thanks for the help from the UK and Texas.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Dan and Larry made the pilgrimage to Camp Perry. The 1903 shot well. Not High Master, but managed to shoot a 96 at 300 and 93 at 600. I believe 18 hours of drive time to shoot 20 shots for record must qualify me as a firearms enthusiast. Thanks for the inspiration and information from the M1941 project. Dan
Dan and Larry made the pilgrimage to Camp Perry. The 1903 shot well. Not High Master, but managed to shoot a 96 at 300 and 93 at 600. I believe 18 hours of drive time to shoot 20 shots for record must qualify me as a firearms enthusiast. Thanks for the inspiration and information from the M1941 project. Dan
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Some places are just worth going the extra mile(s)!!
I'd like to get over to Camp Perry one day..Thunder Ranch too.
How did your scope hold up/perform? Did you work out what was happening with the click values?
Would like to see pics of the rifle if you have them.
Some places are just worth going the extra mile(s)!!
I'd like to get over to Camp Perry one day..Thunder Ranch too.
How did your scope hold up/perform? Did you work out what was happening with the click values?
Would like to see pics of the rifle if you have them.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
I've been looking at the Bill Bentz USMC iron sights...does anyone know for definite if the originals were fitted as standard to <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> USMC 1903 (including the M1941SR)?
Joe Poyer's book says they were adopted by the USMC after WW1 and were fitted to all rifles (both 1903 and 1903A1) rebuilt fo use in WW2.
Just a small detail but want to get it right!
I've been looking at the Bill Bentz USMC iron sights...does anyone know for definite if the originals were fitted as standard to <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> USMC 1903 (including the M1941SR)?
Joe Poyer's book says they were adopted by the USMC after WW1 and were fitted to all rifles (both 1903 and 1903A1) rebuilt fo use in WW2.
Just a small detail but want to get it right!
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Not all Marine 03's had the special Marine #10 sights, some of there NM rifles did, and some didn't. I suspect that few of the early NM rifles that were converted into M1941 rifles could have.
If your looking for the Marine sights Bill Bentz is your man, he also makes the larger USMC sight hood and I don't think anyone can tell them apart from the originals there that nice.
You can contact Bill Bentz at [email protected]
P.s. You really should take the time and get over to www.jouster.com there 03 board has alot of info especially on Marine and NM 03 rifles, if not your missing out.
Not all Marine 03's had the special Marine #10 sights, some of there NM rifles did, and some didn't. I suspect that few of the early NM rifles that were converted into M1941 rifles could have.
If your looking for the Marine sights Bill Bentz is your man, he also makes the larger USMC sight hood and I don't think anyone can tell them apart from the originals there that nice.
You can contact Bill Bentz at [email protected]
P.s. You really should take the time and get over to www.jouster.com there 03 board has alot of info especially on Marine and NM 03 rifles, if not your missing out.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Phil, thanks for the info. I'm in touch with Bill and am sorting a set of his sights/hood etc. Just need to find a Western Union agent in the middle of the UK countryside!
Will post pics once the components are here. They certainly look good from the shots Bill has sent me.
Will try to find some time to check out jouster.com.
Phil, thanks for the info. I'm in touch with Bill and am sorting a set of his sights/hood etc. Just need to find a Western Union agent in the middle of the UK countryside!
Will post pics once the components are here. They certainly look good from the shots Bill has sent me.
Will try to find some time to check out jouster.com.
Re: USMC M1903 A1 / 1941 Sniper Rifle Project begins
Got home last night and the box that Bill sent was waiting.
Inside:
- Photocopy of the relevant pages from the Ordnance Maintenance Manual for the 1903 showing the procedure for disassembly and assembly of the sights.
- Copy of The Rifleman's Magazine article by Ernest Cooler dated February 15, 1923 on the USMC sights (VERY cool - forgive the pun!!
)
- Note from Bill on aligning and zeroing the sight (including a recommendation on the P J O'Hare Sight micrometer (more vintage stuff to track down somehow!?
)
- A timely and wise note about the difference in sizing of Bill's USMC replica front hood and difficulty in removing the original 1903 Sight Hood (thanks Bill, but I've already found that out the hard way!)
- A small plastic snap-lock box containing the rear sight and front sight blade and a spare front sight pin - all wrapped and stapled to prevent loss.
- The front sight hood wrapped and tied for protection.
A great kit of parts, well-packed and with interesting and relevant advice.
Pics:
This is what the package contained:
The sight hood (Bill Bentz reproduction on the left)
The finish is a very good and even light grey parkerized finish. As can be seen in this shot, the Bentz cover is a lot thicker than an original non-USMC 1903 hood:
When I looked at this view, I was a little worried that the Bentz part was not made with as much care as the original (the retaining tab is bent up at an angle on the Bentz part). But I'm thinking this is deliberate (rather than poor attention to detail) so that it makes the sight easier to remove (as Bill's note explains)?:
The box containing the front sight blade and rear sight aperture - nicely packed keeping everything together:
Contains the front sight blade and pin (sorry, this ones a bit fuzzy!):
and the aperture:
Finish on these is a high quality brushed and blued steel.
All in all Bill was a very easy and helpful gentleman to deal with. The products he makes look very good and I'm anxious to get them fitted.
The only downside to the deal was having to use Western Union which seemed a very expensive way of transfering funds across the Pond thanks to WU's exorbitant fees. This is not Bill's fault however and I understand that he may feel uncomfortable sharing his account details for direct transfers or in using PayPal but worth bearing in mind for non-US buyers.
As and when I get these fitted up, I'll post more pics and feedback on their use.
Got home last night and the box that Bill sent was waiting.
Inside:
- Photocopy of the relevant pages from the Ordnance Maintenance Manual for the 1903 showing the procedure for disassembly and assembly of the sights.
- Copy of The Rifleman's Magazine article by Ernest Cooler dated February 15, 1923 on the USMC sights (VERY cool - forgive the pun!!
- Note from Bill on aligning and zeroing the sight (including a recommendation on the P J O'Hare Sight micrometer (more vintage stuff to track down somehow!?
- A timely and wise note about the difference in sizing of Bill's USMC replica front hood and difficulty in removing the original 1903 Sight Hood (thanks Bill, but I've already found that out the hard way!)
- A small plastic snap-lock box containing the rear sight and front sight blade and a spare front sight pin - all wrapped and stapled to prevent loss.
- The front sight hood wrapped and tied for protection.
A great kit of parts, well-packed and with interesting and relevant advice.
Pics:
This is what the package contained:
The sight hood (Bill Bentz reproduction on the left)
The finish is a very good and even light grey parkerized finish. As can be seen in this shot, the Bentz cover is a lot thicker than an original non-USMC 1903 hood:
When I looked at this view, I was a little worried that the Bentz part was not made with as much care as the original (the retaining tab is bent up at an angle on the Bentz part). But I'm thinking this is deliberate (rather than poor attention to detail) so that it makes the sight easier to remove (as Bill's note explains)?:
The box containing the front sight blade and rear sight aperture - nicely packed keeping everything together:
Contains the front sight blade and pin (sorry, this ones a bit fuzzy!):
and the aperture:
Finish on these is a high quality brushed and blued steel.
All in all Bill was a very easy and helpful gentleman to deal with. The products he makes look very good and I'm anxious to get them fitted.
The only downside to the deal was having to use Western Union which seemed a very expensive way of transfering funds across the Pond thanks to WU's exorbitant fees. This is not Bill's fault however and I understand that he may feel uncomfortable sharing his account details for direct transfers or in using PayPal but worth bearing in mind for non-US buyers.
As and when I get these fitted up, I'll post more pics and feedback on their use.
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