Vortex CS .. Kicks ass

[adubeau]

I had to send in my DB Tatical 4x16-44 in for repair.. I just received a new scope today via UPS. Vortex stated I over torqued the rings, I doubt it but not going to argue, I tend to under torque. I use a Wheeler Fat wrench for all my torquing needs.. Should I look for something more accurate? if so what is recommended.

 

[st1650]

Cheap Chinese scope can’t handle more than 15in/lbs torque and shits the bed. User is in love with the CS because they send him another free scope. Is this the power of koolaid marketing?

Even worse the user is blaming another tool that most likely works fine.

 

[Gohring65]

Cheap Chinese scope can’t handle more than 15in/lbs torque and shits the bed. User is in love with the CS because they send him another free scope. Is this the power of koolaid marketing?

Even worse the user is blaming another tool that most likely works fine.

Ha! The damn tool is made in China too. So…
To the op, go to Autozone or Napa and grab a analog torque wrench. I’ve used it to adjust transmission bands to scope rings and never had a problem.

 

[dirthead1]

I had a Viper that had to be sent in for repair. They said the same thing, over torqued rings. I think that's their go to when a scope fails. They send me a new scope. The reticle was canted about 30° right out of the box. Great customer service, and plan on using it. I've had 6 items made by Vortex and all of them had to go in for repair. Maybe I'm just an unlucky user. I agree, their CS is great though.

 

[Rob01]

I had to send in my DB Tatical 4x16-44 in for repair.. I just received a new scope today via UPS. Vortex stated I over torqued the rings, I doubt it but not going to argue, I tend to under torque. I use a Wheeler Fat wrench for all my torquing needs.. Should I look for something more accurate? if so what is recommended.

As long as you are happy that’s what matters. You will get all sorts of haters dropping in so plan on hearing it.

As to the set up, what was wrong with the scope to have you send it in?

 

[Holliday]

Vortex stated I over torqued the rings, I doubt it but not going to argue, I tend to under torque. I use a Wheeler Fat wrench for all my torquing needs..

Interesting...Did you? Could you have? What rings did you use?

The Vortex scopes I have owned have stated 15-18inch lbs and I always go 18 and have never had that issue. Does the DB specify just 15?

Just received a razor gen2 and it is the same 15-18 inch lbs. My understanding is that they are made in Japan not China.

I believe the Wheeler fat wrench is made in China but I have never had an issue with mine.

 

[Rob01]

Interesting...Did you? Could you have? What rings did you use?

The Vortex scopes I have owned have stated 15-18inch lbs and I always go 18 and have never had that issue. Does the DB specify just 15?

Just received a razor gen2 and it is the same 15-18 inch lbs. My understanding is that they are made in Japan not China.

I believe the Wheeler fat wrench is made in Japan but I have never had an issue with mine.

Yes the Razor II is made in Japan with final assembly in the US with the addition of the proprietary knobs. Vortex has scopes made in China, Philippines, Japan and US.

It does say 15-18 but I have torqued my Seekins rings to 20 in/lbs for years and no issues.

 

[Holliday]

It does say 15-18 but I have torqued my Seekins rings to 20 in/lbs for years and no issues.

It would stand to reason that they would have a buffer built in, so 15-18 would really mean something a bit higher to have damage.

Ring choice has a lot to do with the tolerance too. The Seekins PMR/ Vortex PMR are my first choice along with a Seekins Rail.

Oops I said the wheeler fat wrench is made in Japan but meant to say China.

 

[TheHorta]

I think the point is… if Vortex supports their cheap stuff this well, how much more their higher-end swag?

Tough crowd.

 

[FuhQ]

Got a Viper HS 6-24x50 that just arrived at Vortex today for repair/replace. They emailed and called me to let me know it had arrived. Once again, their CS has been top-notch, so far. We’ll see how they handle this claim. They don’t make that scope anymore, so if they let me upgrade to an HST or Strike Eagle, that would be great.

 

[hafejd30]

Vortex CS is second to none

2/3 vortex I had failed and had to go back. Very satisfied with the service

That said I moved to other options. Waiting to “need” the CS to see how those are

 

[adubeau]

As long as you are happy that’s what matters. You will get all sorts of haters dropping in so plan on hearing it.

As to the set up, what was wrong with the scope to have you send it in?

I had Burris rings, 6 crews per ring. I sent the scope in because I noticed the seal in front of the lense on the front bell came half way out, I sent it in and Vortex sent me a new scope. And the indicated it was due to offer torquing..

ETA - the Burris rings were not fucking cheap and I use the 150 Vortex rings for my bolt gun with a Steiner scope on it.. The one I sent in was on a M1A.

 

[smoothy8500]

They said the same thing, over torqued rings. I think that's their go to when a scope fails.

Same here on a new PST 3-15 with poor image quality. A friend sent a new one back for excessive chromatic aberration, same response.

 

[adubeau]

Same here on a new PST 3-15 with poor image quality. A friend sent a new one back for excessive chromatic aberration, same response.

I don't think I over torqued and Vortex replaced the scope with in a week and that is all that matters.

 

[Nate60x]

I live 5 miles from vortex, I will be the first to admit that their customer service is second to none. And for me ridiculously convenient, less than 1 minute out of my way to drop off broken optics, 5 minutes later i am usually leaving the parking lot with a brand new replacement product.

But…I have grown tired of having to use their world class customer service, Ive moved on to other brands with no regrets.

 

[Rob01]

How about you all list what scopes you had issues with and what issues exactly?

 

[hafejd30]

Vortex Viper HS- Elevation turret failed (about 50 rounds of 308)

Vortex Viper PST- Parallax knob failed (brand new/never mounted)

 

[st1650]

Vortex PST Gen 1. 2.5-10x32 FFP - elevation turret unscrewed itself - total failure - never seen anything like this with any scope. Less than 100 rounds from 300 BLK subsonic. Shit the bed during hunting season of course. Sold at loss after warranty return. Vortex blamed the torque (even though it was mounted in ATRS rings torqued with a fixitstick at 18in/lbs and the Burris XTR ii 1-8 that replaced has been doing just fine)
Vortex PST Gen 1. 4-16x-50 FFP. Foggy, Parallax issue, wandering zero. Never worked right and even after repair, tracking was shit. Also sold at loss. They also blamed torqued. Replaced with a Bushnell HDMR that is bullet proof.

Swored I would never buy another Vortex, then foolishly bought a 3-15 LHT HD because it looked good on paper and was made in Japan (I think by LOW but it has the shittiest turrets for a scope of that price). Wandering zero. 2-3 shots 1/2in then the next one wouldn’t be on paper. Wasted a ton of time and ammo on load development of subsonic 300blk, not 50 BMG. Sent to Vortex, at least this time they said ‘Confirmed a point of aim shift when impact tested’. Replaced by a S&B klassik 3-12x42 which is quickly becoming my favourite hunting scope with FFP and elevation turret. Guess what I’ll do when I g the vortex back ? Sell it at loss. And once again ... it shit the bed during hunting season. Could have caused me to lose or injure an animal which is unacceptable.

Somehow every other affordable/mid range Meopta, Leupold, Athlon, Bushnell DMR and Burris I have ever owned have never had an issue yet I’m 3/3 on the Vortex and somehow they want us to believe that every-time it’s torque related.

cue the Razor Gen ii guys - yeah I know. It’s a fantastic scope, it’s also made by LOW which has a fairly good track record (Cronus, XTR II, Bushnell Elites, etc etc)

cue the CS fanboys - yeah sure they ‘take care of you’. you’d hope they take care of their customer with the markup they do on their cheaper lines of scopes, they can afford to just ship one out right away and not even bother trying to fix it. The best warranty is the one who don’t need to use.

 

[chevy_man]

I think the point is… if Vortex supports their cheap stuff this well, how much more their higher-end swag?

Tough crowd.

They have too, they've built their brand on a warranty that others already had. Well, minus destructive testing that they've covered for the publicity when others would simply tell you that being dumb has a price.


I got rid of all my vortex because I was tired of using the warranty, not because it sucked.
Broken reticle, on a 5.56 ar.
Broken turret
Wouldn't hold zero
Wouldn't adjust elevation, "fixed" one wouldn't adjust windage

I'd venture to guess they just reply with over-torquing the rings because they don't take any of them apart, they chuck them in a bin to return to the manufacturer and they send you a new one.

 

[Nate60x]

How about you all list what scopes you had issues with and what issues exactly?

Viper pst gen1- tracking
Amg parallax adjustment
Razor 10x42 binocs- focus adjustment
Razor 10x42 binocs- backed over with truck(not entirely vortex’s fault)

 

[Snaz]

I've sent two PST Gen 1s back, one w/less than 50 rnds. One didn't work out of the box brand new. Parallax stopped working on both. They fixed one and sent a new one to replace the other. I have no complaints on their service, but it would be even better if I never had to use it.

 

[Rob01]

They have too, they've built their brand on a warranty that others already had. Well, minus destructive testing that they've covered for the publicity when others would simply tell you that being dumb has a price.


I got rid of all my vortex because I was tired of using the warranty, not because it sucked.
Broken reticle, on a 5.56 ar.
Broken turret
Wouldn't hold zero
Wouldn't adjust elevation, "fixed" one wouldn't adjust windage

I'd venture to guess they just reply with over-torquing the rings because they don't take any of them apart, they chuck them in a bin to return to the manufacturer and they send you a new one.

What scopes exactly?

 

[Gohring65]

I sent a pst back years ago.
They matched my overnight shipping and I had the scope back on a Tuesday after sending it on the previous friday.
I was in the market for a 500$ scope last week, and after the Arken sh4 thread, and all the complaints with water damage, parallax and Arken not answering the phone, I decided that Athlon and Vortex are the only Chinese scope manufacturers that I’m going to use right now because of their warranty response.
China scopes are China scopes, it doesn’t matter what name is printed on the side of it. We don’t have too many choices other than China for the 500$ market. So we have to take the gamble, and warranty response is a major factor in my choice.
Ive sent a few SWFAs back, a xtr2, pst 4-16, Nightforce SHV F1, all for various reasons and all came back fixed or replaced, I have a rt6 I’m suspicious of the reticle rotating, Burris wants me to send it in I just haven’t found the time, these scopes are from all over the pacific rim.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

I used to run a lot of vortex but have since moved on, except the strike eagle on my 22, which has been perfect.
For now, any centerfire I have would get only a razer if I was going to pick vortex.

Ive grown really fond of my leupold mk5, and Im getting a new sightron siii ffp zero stop today for a 223, im interested to see how it does. Cant beat sightrons military program.

 

[Nate60x]

What scopes exactly?

Do you work for or have a relationship with vortex?

 

[Rob01]

Do you work for or have a relationship with vortex?

No I do not work for them but I shoot their scopes. All I am trying to do is give anyone reading this thread the actual facts of what scopes and what issues.

 

[Holliday]

I have it on good authority that Vortex sells the most scopes of any scope company in the US........ and it’s not even close.

So If company A sells 100,000 pieces of y, with a 1% failure rate, that’s 1000 pcs of y that failed.

If company B sells 1000 pieces of w, with a 1% failure rate, that’s 10 pcs

(These numbers are extreme to illustrate a point, and not related to any actual data)

“The plural of anecdote is not data”

Now if you are someone who has experienced a failure or multiple failures, this means little to you personally and I get that.

I have owned Vortex scopes with NO failures. Is that data? No it is not. It’s anecdotal .... That said, how many folks out there have the same story? 90%? 95%? 99%?

I design and sell products for a living. One of my products, a motorcycle fuel solution, I have been selling and have refined for 20 years. It is known worldwide and currently being run on bikes in Russia, Croatia, Hungary, Nederlands, England, France, Japan and on and on. I have a page with over 100 testimonials for that product.

We have a private tech support forum. Less than 1% of my customers ever post needing tech support. If I were to let you into this forum you might think “Wow everyone is having problems with this product!” In reality 99% of people are putting the product on their bike and going on their merry way...... Furthermore of 1% of people who need tech support 99.9% is either installer error or a pre-existing issue with their bike. This year I have had two customers that were simply out of gas. Now you know why the forum is not public.

So no I don’t work for Vortex either. Just pointing out some perspective. I am biased because I really like Vortex and their products. So yes this is a biased perspective......

 

[hafejd30]

Not mine personally but a fellow fclass team member ran a vortex golden eagle for a bit. The elevation tracking crapped out mid season. Luckily it was during a training day and not a match

Laying behind the gun you’d adjust the elevation turret and the reticle would just shake inside the scope. Similar to my Viper HS when it went down

 

[chevy_man]

What scopes exactly?

Strike eagle, several vipers, pst.

I'd love to like them, but I haven't broken another scope in their price range. I'm convinced they have 3 replacements factored into every sale.

I won't use a razor because it's a damn tank, and there are better scopes out there.

 

[hafejd30]

You always see people defend vortex. I get yes they sell a ton of scopes but most buyers are using the sample they received as their judgement to the quality of the optic.

Vortex may have a 1% fail rate overall, who really knows. But when the buyer experiences 50% + fail rates it’s going to turn them away

In comparison in the similar price range or lower I’ve owned,

3 Vortex- (HS and PST) (66% failed)

5 Sightrons - (SIII) (0 failures)

6 Burris - (E1, XTRII, Fullfield) (Sent back 1 E1 for debris in scope. Scope still functioned fine)

 

[Holliday]

You always see people defend vortex.

You always see folks bashing Vortex.

 

[Baron23]

I have a PST Gen 2 3-15 on a .308 deer gun and have had zero issues w it. I did the SH scope tracking test and it tracked very accurately and returned to zero just fine.

A buddy had a tree stand collapse under him, scope bounced down the ladder and was utterly fubar’d.

He called Vortex and sent it in to see if it could be repaired. He was completely honest w them about how the scope was damaged. They didn’t care and sent him a new one.

Personally, I think @Max hit it on the head. I used to be a program manager in telco network equip space. Had Level 1 & 2 support engineers working in my team. If you only looked at our ticket system without regard to the size of the fielded population, you would think our stuff was crap. But when we ran the full reliability figures, we were 5 nines across the fielded population.

Personal and isolated anecdotes are, IMO, not valuable as a means to eval quality or reliability.

Just my view of it.

 

[Gohring65]

Some guys who have multiple failures should open their minds to fact that they might suck at mounting scopes. Just a thought. I’m willing to bet a large percentage of the returns are from user error, you got guys who never had a problem with vortex and there’s that one guy who had 10 scopes fail. Hmmmm…


Theres also tolerance stack from using China scope, China rings, and Chinahhh torque wrench.

 

[hafejd30]

Some guys who have multiple failures should open their minds to fact that they might suck at mounting scopes. Just a thought. I’m willing to bet a large percentage of the returns are from user error, you got guys who never had a problem with vortex and there’s that one guy who had 10 scopes fail. Hmmmm…


Theres also tolerance stack from using China scope, China rings, and Chinnnaa torque wrench.

If you take a quick look you’ll note several failed scopes are out of the box. Never mounted. So there’s that…

 

[st1650]

Not only that. Why does it fails with the Vortex and not the scope I used to replace it when I used the same rings and the same fixit stick ?
Yeah sure I get it, Vortex sells more scopes than ZCO or TT so statistically in a population they’ll have more issues. My question is why after owning 20 something scopes, every single one that failed was a Vortex ? None of the other brands with the same variables (same recoil, same mounting method, same transport case, etc).
I’ll never understand people being so fanatic of some brands.

 

[Gohring65]

Not only that. Why does it fails with the Vortex and not the scope I used to replace it when I used the same rings and the same fixit stick ?
Yeah sure I get it, Vortex sells more scopes than ZCO or TT so statistically in a population they’ll have more issues. My question is why after owning 20 something scopes, every single one that failed was a Vortex ? None of the other brands with the same variables (same recoil, same mounting method, same transport case, etc).
I’ll never understand people being so fanatic of some brands.

It all comes back to having a open mind and knowing cheap products have limits. I’m not brand biased, Ill try out any brand I want to try out, I don’t listen to the China haters or the brand haters. If I want to try something I’ll buy it. If it fails then I consider the source, I have had very few failures though. And I’m talking 20 years of trying shit out.

 

[dirthead1]

Vortex Viper HS - Would not hold zero (told rings were overtorqued, but they weren't).
Vortex Viper HS - Replacement for above, received with severely canted reticle.
Vortex Razor AMG - Would not focus past 800 yds.
Vortex Razor Gen 2 - Elevation turret, extremely difficult to lock/unlock
Vortex Razor spotter - soft image around edges

As a note, I've also had to send in a Schmidt and a TT for warranty issues. The Schmidt had grease spots on the internal lenses, and the TT had an issue with the elevation turret. Both were repaired very quickly.

 

[db2000]

I live 5 miles from vortex, I will be the first to admit that their customer service is second to none. And for me ridiculously convenient, less than 1 minute out of my way to drop off broken optics, 5 minutes later i am usually leaving the parking lot with a brand new replacement product.

But…I have grown tired of having to use their world class customer service, Ive moved on to other brands with no regrets.

It would be interesting if there was an optic return data tracker. Like we use in medicine for adverse events. Fantasy I know, but would be helpful none the less and likely help improve quality…or maybe just drive up costs

 

[st1650]

I would argue that I was opened minded. I swore them off after the PST Gen 1 fiasco years ago, which btw, I wonder how many of them as still running to this day. Then with an open mind I decided to get a Razor LHT HD this late spring after careful research and it shit the bed. Not sure what to tell you ... I wanted it to work.

I also don’t necessarily have anything against Chinese OEM. Had plenty of Weaver that were affordable and made in China and worked great. Still have a Leupold mk ar 3-9 mil/mil that also work great for what it is. My thermal is from China, works fine. My SiOnyx Aurora is probably from China works fine.

 

[Gohring65]

I would argue that I was opened minded. I swore them off after the PST Gen 1 fiasco years ago, which btw, I wonder how many of them as still running to this day with. Then with an open mind I decided to get a Razor LHT HD this late spring after careful research and it shit the bed. Not sure what to tell you ... I wanted it to work.

I’m not bashing your experience. There are several like you. I’m just to the point that I’ve accepted and expect failures. I don’t get to upset about it anymore. Duty worthy guns get proven japan optics, Japan because I can’t afford German, and my range toys usually get Chinese optics that I figure at some point will fail.
Where I’m at with optics is, I’ll put my SS 10x on a weapon for self defense long before I would any Chinese optic, even though I know China is getting better I’m still going with Japan for self defense.
I have several China products on range toys and are very happy with most of them. Unfortunately that’s going to be the case until companies decide to shut China out of the world markets. It has to be the world, I bought flooring for my house that was warehoused in Georgia, headquartered in Canada and made in China. So… they snuck it in the back door.

 

[Nate60x]

Failure rates across different levels of rifle scopes don’t mean much to me. The vast majority of the scopes that I own get very little use, they sit in my safe and collect dust. The cheaper scopes somehow end up on rifles I rarely shoot. And Im guessing I shoot way more than your average rifle scope buyer. Im spitballing here, but Im guessing your random zco or tt get used more and see more abuse than some budget Chinese scope. So when we are talking failure rate, we should also be talking use rate.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I can't remember where I heard it now, but I heard someone that I trusted state the average lifespan of a high end scope was 10-20k rounds. After that the likelihood of having a failure was quite high.

For those of us that shoot a lot with one gun that may only be a few seasons, or even less. I shoot (with the help of my kids) 10k-12k rounds of .22lr a year. That scope gets the turrest spun a bunch.

Depending on time away from work I shoot 2000 to 5000 rounds a year through my comp rifle. I don't have scope A.D.D. I tend to find something I like and stick to it.

I run a lot of Vortex stuff as well as others. I have had several problems with an AMG. I have been very well taken care of. I was never accused of over torquing the rings. One time the scope broke was my fault. It is a long story, but basically I dropped the rifle and cross threaded the sunshade. When I tried to unscrew it the front ring came out with it. They sent me a new scope with no questions asked. They even went above and beyond, but I won't say how as everyone will call and demand they do the same in every instance.

The funny thing is, I have Vortex binos and 2 cheaper scopes from them that have functioned as designed. No problems.

I have also had nearly every scope I have run over the years fail at some time. It seems they fail early or after thousands of rounds or being dropped or smashed.

I have had other brands of cheap scopes fail. I know it is easy to be frustrated when you have issues, but most people that use their gear hard report that even schmidts and TT have to eventually be worked on.

 

[Annex Defense]

I have it on good authority that Vortex sells the most scopes of any scope company in the US........ and it’s not even close.

So If company A sells 100,000 pieces of y, with a 1% failure rate, that’s 1000 pcs of y that failed.

If company B sells 1000 pieces of w, with a 1% failure rate, that’s 10 pcs

(These numbers are extreme to illustrate a point, and not related to any actual data)

“The plural of anecdote is not data”

Now if you are someone who has experienced a failure or multiple failures, this means little to you personally and I get that.

Quality post. And I will be stealing that anecdote / data quote.

I’ve owned about every brand of scope out there and broken all of them.

Vortex service is bar-none the best and we model our customer service after them.

I get annoyed in the silly long-range Facebook groups when people start bashing on Vortex comparing a Viper to a Schmidt in terms of quality and longevity; they’re not the same animal whatsoever.

That being said, it was whack when the PST Gen 1 was released and the fanboys were gushing over how it was outclassing scopes 2-3x it’s price; the 2.5-10x was pretty good but the 6-24x was a dog in my book. Granted at the time there wasn’t any scope out there at that price point that was FFP and matching turrets / usable reticle.

 

[db2000]

Quality post. And I will be stealing that anecdote / data quote.

I’ve owned about every brand of scope out there and broken all of them.

Vortex service is bar-none the best and we model our customer service after them.

I get annoyed in the silly long-range Facebook groups when people start bashing on Vortex comparing a Viper to a Schmidt in terms of quality and longevity; they’re not the same animal whatsoever.

That being said, it was whack when the PST Gen 1 was released and the fanboys were gushing over how it was outclassing scopes 2-3x it’s price; the 2.5-10x was pretty good but the 6-24x was a dog in my book. Granted at the time there wasn’t any scope out there at that price point that was FFP and matching turrets / usable reticle.

Owned and broken almost every brand huh. Seems maybe it’s not the scopes. Statistically, that’s nearly impossible with average to even hard use.
Also, I’d ask for proof before “stealing” data and spreading it around all the long range FB groups that annoy you.
Just my opinion.

 

[Thorbeast]

No I do not work for them but I shoot their scopes. All I am trying to do is give anyone reading this thread the actual facts of what scopes and what issues.

What exactly does that mean? You receive no form of compensation (discounts/free merch)? Is any potential compensation dependent on your promoting of the brand in the shooting community? All your merchandise acquisitions are conducted in the same manner as an independent, unaffiliated 3rd party?

 

[Thorbeast]

Quality post. And I will be stealing that anecdote / data quote.

I’ve owned about every brand of scope out there and broken all of them.

Vortex service is bar-none the best and we model our customer service after them.

I get annoyed in the silly long-range Facebook groups when people start bashing on Vortex comparing a Viper to a Schmidt in terms of quality and longevity; they’re not the same animal whatsoever.

That being said, it was whack when the PST Gen 1 was released and the fanboys were gushing over how it was outclassing scopes 2-3x it’s price; the 2.5-10x was pretty good but the 6-24x was a dog in my book. Granted at the time there wasn’t any scope out there at that price point that was FFP and matching turrets / usable reticle.

How is that a good post? There is literally nothing of value in that post. He simply makes a claim without supporting it and then engages in misdirection by pivoting to the difference rates and eaches.

Where is the information he claims to have? He knows how many scopes each company sells nationwide? And he knows the failure rates for each company and/or product? Not likely.. if he did have this information, why wouldn't he just share it? And if he can't share it, why not?

Sounds like a lot of "unnamed sources" we've heard so much about the last 4+ years.

 

[Thorbeast]

And just so people don't think I'm biased... If my budget was under $300 for a new scope, vortex would certainly be a consideration. I'd expect low budget china products to fail, and the vortex warranty would likely be a selling point under those circumstances.

 

[deersniper]

 

[Rob01]

What exactly does that mean? You receive no form of compensation (discounts/free merch)? Is any potential compensation dependent on your promoting of the brand in the shooting community? All your merchandise acquisitions are conducted in the same manner as an independent, unaffiliated 3rd party?

Lol It means I shoot for them as many others here do for them and other scope/rifle/etc companies. Ever been to a match or seen pics of them and seen the jerseys?

When I asked the question I was wanting people to be specific as to the scopes and failures to help anyone else out who could possibly be looking at products. Just to get a true view of what possible issues were and with what scopes. Just trying to help the members as I have for over 20 years here. What is more help if you were looking for info? “Vortex sucks!” Or “I had a PST Gen 1 6-24 and had an issue with my elevation knob”? That was why I was asking.

 

[Gohring65]

Anyone buying a Chinese optic needs to lower their expectations, the sting will hurt less when it finally fails.

View attachment 7718288
View attachment 7718289

If you are in the middle of nowhere with a Chinese optic it’s probably on a savage axis and that’s just natural selection at work.