At MSRP I don’t really have a problem stepping up to a ZCO. What’s $1K in this sport, especially over the amount of time/useful life of a scope?
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Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56
- Thread starter jb1000br
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At MSRP I don’t really have a problem stepping up to a ZCO. What’s $1K in this sport, especially over the amount of time/useful life of a scope?
For me a lot of things at the moment. I understand your point but I’ve always lamented that type of thinking. Everything has gone up in part due to inflation but the boundaries were shifted when the sport started to grow. We went from $100 harris’ to $200 atlas to $400 TBAC, and now $600 Cyke pods. Optics is a different matter so to speak because of the investment as you say. But the general trend toward the sport has been increasing price for some time. Of which companies wouldn’t do if the market didn’t support it. Idk i guess i don’t know the manufacturing cost so justifying some things on the basis of what’s x amount comparably speaking in what’s turned into an absurdly priced hobby is just irritating to me. And it’s not that I’m not willing to spend the money you can look at my optics purchases, it’s just the principle i guess.
But i would argue that if your budget is $4000 you’re not looking at the Gen III anyway. Either way you have a point.
I look for the value play in all of my hobbies, and spend more money figuring that out than I would buying the most expensive items to begin with - but I enjoy it, and learn a ton along the way. Try not to be the guy with his spinning rod upside down, unless, of course, you f'n like it that way 
I resonate with that to my core lolI look for the value play in all of my hobbies, and spend more money figuring that out than I would buying the most expensive items to begin with - but I enjoy it, and learn a ton along the way. Try not to be the guy with his spinning rod upside down, unless, of course, you f'n like it that way
Were they ever this cheap? Or was back when they went by premier? I thought when theta 5-25 first dropped they were like 6k msrp or something. Maybe that wasI don’t need to be called out like that.
Edit: The ever rising price of goods, especially in the sport is definitely a sore point. I remember when Thetas cost under $3K…
maplebacks thoWere they ever this cheap? Or was back when they went by premier? I thought when theta 5-25 first dropped they were like 6k msrp or something. Maybe that was
I’m being a little disingenuous…it was only the 3-15M that were ever around the $3K mark. The 5-25P have been over $4K, to my recent recollection.
Had mine out to 800y last week next to my NF 7-35. DOF seemed just slightly better with the NF. Very impressed with it so far. The reticle is a huge improvement to the 7-C and the main reason I upgraded from the Gen II.
Attachments
One of my biggest reasons for the move also. Granted the MR4 is eerily similar to the 7D but I just like consolidating systems throughout my rifles. I really like the 1/2 mil lower hash on the ERB7C and D. It helps me denote quickly where I am. I wish it was on the vertical stadia of the tree also that would be perfect. I still think the Mil-XT is the best designed tree reticle on the market, even if a little cluttered for some. Wish NF would sell that to horus and put it in other scopes lol. I could buy more NF but then I have to put up with rotating eyepieces which annoy the piss out of me.
Man do y’all remember when Nightforce didn’t have a reticle worth a shit?
Lol yes. It’s one of the reasons I’ve never owned one. And shockingly the two i now own are old ass NXS’ with shit reticles that paid entirely too much for. Stupid clone builds. I still hate the eyepiece. Caps get in the way of bolts, I’m left eye dominant and always spinning that shit to cover my left eye. It’s a fidgety nightmare.
My Two Hours with New Gen-III
I spent a couple of hours on the range today getting acquainted with my Gen-III. I ordered it from EuroOptic Friday afternoon and it showed up here in central NC midmorning today (Tuesday) - fast service. Here are a few initial thoughts - again, all this is based on two hours of range time and things may change with more hands-on time.
Lots to like with the Gen-III Razor 6-36x56 except the stiffness of the turrets and parallax knob. I hope they loosen up… if they do and become comparable to Gen-II feel (I have two Gen-IIs and sold an MOA gen-II), it’s a solid upgrade to the previous generation. But I think a lot of people are going to, um, feel strongly about the Gen-III controls to the degree of their stiffness perhaps being a showstopper.
My $0.02.
I spent a couple of hours on the range today getting acquainted with my Gen-III. I ordered it from EuroOptic Friday afternoon and it showed up here in central NC midmorning today (Tuesday) - fast service. Here are a few initial thoughts - again, all this is based on two hours of range time and things may change with more hands-on time.
- Weather was clear, temp 55F, humidity 25% (dry!), station pressure 30.3, wind calm to light from 2 o’clock. Light went from afternoon full sun to deep shadow after 5pm.
- Clarity is excellent, as has been noted many times. It seemed to me that the image was a bit dark at full magnification in the late-afternoon shadow 45 minutes before sundown…. But this will be reexamined in comparison to my Gen-IIs and ZCO.
- The turrets…. Well, they work and the skin is still on my fingers, albeit a bit raw. Turrets make a little noise and they kinda have a tactile click. Mainly they feel like they’re full of… something… that makes them gummy and way too f'ing hard to turn. At this point, the Gen-II turrets are VASTLY better. @Rob01 and I are going to get together in the next several days to compare the various controls, especially turrets. I do hope they loosen up with use. Note that there are no external caps over the “zeroing dial”, and the recessed elevation dial will rapidly fill with water in the rain - could the stiffness be associated with additional waterproofing?
- The single-screw Gen-III zeroing lock is much easier to adjust than the 3-screw Gen-II design.
- Does the turret lock inadvertently get pushed to lock position? My answer comes with a caveat: I have pushed the elevation and windage turrets to “locked” on ALL my scopes (three Gen-II Razors and a ZCO) while on the clock. But, with the Gen-III, I pushed it “on” multiple times because the turret was so damned hard to turn. I’ll put an o-ring on asap.
- Are the marks on the turret aligned with the index mark on the scope body? Yes on the elevation turret, close enough on windage but not perfect.
- Tracking: Seems fine; I dialed out to 400 today (21.3 mils) and back several times, and it put the 35-yard shot(where I'm zeroed) on the 3/16” dot reliably.
- The new adjustment tools are an improvement. The previous gen’s tool has plastic “bits” to engage the caps and zeroing dial, and I discovered how easy it is to damage said bits if caps/dials are tight. The new tool has a metal “bit” which won’t be damaged as easily but caution must be taken against scratching the scope.
- It’s good that a nice metal throw lever is included now as well as the sunshade. I love my ZCO 5-27x56, but I’ll stick a cardboard tube on my $4k scope before I pay $65 for a sunshade that ought to come in the box.
Lots to like with the Gen-III Razor 6-36x56 except the stiffness of the turrets and parallax knob. I hope they loosen up… if they do and become comparable to Gen-II feel (I have two Gen-IIs and sold an MOA gen-II), it’s a solid upgrade to the previous generation. But I think a lot of people are going to, um, feel strongly about the Gen-III controls to the degree of their stiffness perhaps being a showstopper.
My $0.02.
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Just spent some time with the Gen III 6-36, a Schmidt 5-25 and Schmidt 3-27. Outside of tunneling the 5-25 is a better scope optically than the 3-27 but not huge surprise as 3-27 has 9x erector and has more compromises due to the design (next I'll put the March 3-24 side by side and curious how those two compare). To my surprise the Gen III kept right up with the PM II 5-25 and actually beat it out slightly in resolution chart tests to my surprise, PM II 5-25 held slightly better CA (best of all the Schmidt's I've tested over the years) but Vortex again was not far behind. I know some others who've made some comparison's with the Gen III 6-36 to alpha glass and I must admit I am becoming a believer, the glass in this scope is some of the best I've seen from Japan.
I was wanting to suggest to all that do not like the turrets with the Gen3.
Send vortex an email about what you do not like about the turrets. The more feedback they get, the more it will corroborate a need to make a change. And since it’s vortex, chances are they will fix your turrets when a change is made.
Send vortex an email about what you do not like about the turrets. The more feedback they get, the more it will corroborate a need to make a change. And since it’s vortex, chances are they will fix your turrets when a change is made.
So, some dude dressed all in brown trespassed my property today and threw this thing at me…
I need a good 0-MOA cantilevered mount for it that will support a Raptar. I have Spuhrs, Scalars, Badger C1, Geissele, ADM, and others. I want LIGHT with Raptar and offset RDS capability, so I think I’ll pass on Spuhr for this go-round.
Thoughts?
I need a good 0-MOA cantilevered mount for it that will support a Raptar. I have Spuhrs, Scalars, Badger C1, Geissele, ADM, and others. I want LIGHT with Raptar and offset RDS capability, so I think I’ll pass on Spuhr for this go-round.
Thoughts?
Well, I’m thinking it might go on this, so may be able to go without cantilever (and weight suddenly becomes less of an issue).
Yeah, you may not notice a few ounces of difference. With all that rail space, why was cantilever a requirement?
I was originally going to put it on a 6.5CM AR-10. I just got this a couple of weeks ago, so got that covered.
Absolutely. After spending a couple more hours with it on the range today, there is no doubt that the Gen-III glass is a significant upgrade over Gen-II. So I'll be on the phone with Vortex tomorrow. Vortex knows how to make turrets - the previous gen's are great - but the new ones kinda feel like Gen-II ones encased in too-cold grease.
Hopefully an easy fix... but first I need to ascertain that Vortex doesn't deem the super-stiff turrets "within normal tolerance," like car manufacturers tell affected customers that burning a quart of oil every thousand miles falls within acceptable limits.
If enough people complain then I believe they will address it.
They have to know about it to improve it so everyone report it to them. If you don’t like the turrets of course
Was thinking that too but he wrote LIGHT in caps, the M Brace is not what I would call “light”. The Spuhr Hunting series can take the same attachments as ISMS so you could put Raptar on that, but honestly, putting a LIGHT mount with Gen III on your covert 50 seems a bit odd.
For what it’s worth - I had the Gen III in an M-Brace mount until I found a good deal on a QD Spuhr Cerakoted in Vortex Razor “Dark Poo” (I think is the official color), it does match well with the scopes anodized poo color, but sitting atop my AI Pale Poo, I don’t know if three shades of poo are going to work for me
I guess its my turn to throw in my two cents, probably worth less than that though. Came out to the range beautiful bright sunny day but windy af. Shot 50 rounds of 6.5 CM for about 2-3 hours at various distances from 1335 to 425 yds and brought along my ZCO 527 for comparison.
Reticle- perfect am really liking the 7D and I will say that I like it better than the MPCT2 on my ZCO, it’s just designed better IMO
Optics- Let me start by saying that I know nothing about optical quality except for what my 40 year old eyes tell me, I have no tools or special targets to compare to but I’ll say this, compared to my ZCO image quality was pretty damn close (I just don’t want to say same). I spent some time looking at a target at 964 yds at 20x with both scopes and it was really hard to tell the difference, this makes me happy. I was able to shoot targets at 964, 1100, 1160, 1255 and 1335 yds with the gen 3 and image quality was great and I was able to spot all of my impacts and misses with no issues.
Parallax-was great and even all the way at 1335 I was still able to get a perfect clear picture without dialing to infinity, in fact I spent shooting from 550-1100 yds in between the 500-1000 mark with no issues.
Zeroing- awesome and easy I have never owned a gen 2 so can’t tell you about what’s best.
Tracking- I really didn’t do a full on box or tall target test but from dialing all the way to 1335 back to 425yds repeatably it was on every time, take that for what it’s worth.
Turrets- absolutely atrocious, hate them. Stiff to the point that they hurt my fingers, clicks are hardly audible only tactile when dialing fast If dialing slowly they’re pretty mushy. Dialing elevation while on the rifle causes the whole thing to move and it’s really uncomfortable. I didn’t have issues with the locking feature. People at the range told me that they have spun gen 3 turrets on 2 other scopes and they were bad but not as bad as mine which leads me to believe that I might have gotten an extra shitty pair and consistency is not there, considering contacting vortex.
To summarize, this scope was purchased as an upgrade from a MK5 and optically it has delivered 100% so am happy about that since I didn’t want to drop more money for another ZCO or “better”, that being said if this turret thing if not fixable either through warranty or use it would be a real deal breaker.
Reticle- perfect am really liking the 7D and I will say that I like it better than the MPCT2 on my ZCO, it’s just designed better IMO
Optics- Let me start by saying that I know nothing about optical quality except for what my 40 year old eyes tell me, I have no tools or special targets to compare to but I’ll say this, compared to my ZCO image quality was pretty damn close (I just don’t want to say same). I spent some time looking at a target at 964 yds at 20x with both scopes and it was really hard to tell the difference, this makes me happy. I was able to shoot targets at 964, 1100, 1160, 1255 and 1335 yds with the gen 3 and image quality was great and I was able to spot all of my impacts and misses with no issues.
Parallax-was great and even all the way at 1335 I was still able to get a perfect clear picture without dialing to infinity, in fact I spent shooting from 550-1100 yds in between the 500-1000 mark with no issues.
Zeroing- awesome and easy I have never owned a gen 2 so can’t tell you about what’s best.
Tracking- I really didn’t do a full on box or tall target test but from dialing all the way to 1335 back to 425yds repeatably it was on every time, take that for what it’s worth.
Turrets- absolutely atrocious, hate them. Stiff to the point that they hurt my fingers, clicks are hardly audible only tactile when dialing fast If dialing slowly they’re pretty mushy. Dialing elevation while on the rifle causes the whole thing to move and it’s really uncomfortable. I didn’t have issues with the locking feature. People at the range told me that they have spun gen 3 turrets on 2 other scopes and they were bad but not as bad as mine which leads me to believe that I might have gotten an extra shitty pair and consistency is not there, considering contacting vortex.
To summarize, this scope was purchased as an upgrade from a MK5 and optically it has delivered 100% so am happy about that since I didn’t want to drop more money for another ZCO or “better”, that being said if this turret thing if not fixable either through warranty or use it would be a real deal breaker.
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I sent them feedback from the common praises and complaints. But one person is not enough so that’s why I think everyone should just send a quick email.
I’ll do the same cause thats the only foreseeable detractor to an otherwise incredible optic.
@Islas82 your turrets will loosen up with some time dialing. I have 2 matches and 4-5 range sessions with mine and they've gotten easier to turn, not an extreme amount but better. My second gen3 will be here in next couple days so I'll compare the 2. The mush doesn't get any better unfortunately. I personally haven't had any issues. I always visually watch turret dial between targets so I'm not counting in my head and I've had no issues. The only detract of this optic is the turrets, everything else is excellent for it's price point. Not a vortex fan boi at all, the only other scopes of theirs I use is the hd lht 3-15x42 and 4.5-22x50 as they're light weight purpose built long range capable hunting rigs, and they exceeded my expectations there. I've had pst gen 1s, original razor lh, pst gen2, they've all been lack luster and half them required warranty. The stuff vortex has brought forth last two years, has been pretty solid in my usage.
Just FYI, my turrets out-of-the-box are just fine. Easy to turn, with muted tactile feedback, but click-feel is still there.
Not perfect, but satisfactory. I don’t know if this will change over time.
Not perfect, but satisfactory. I don’t know if this will change over time.
Vortex did a really good job on these. I would have liked a tiny bit thicker reticle and some improvement to the turret locking system like yall have mentioned.
The glass itself seems odd to my eye, almost too white in appearance. I assume its the result of a lens coating but it does a pretty good job of reducing blue color shift.
The glass itself seems odd to my eye, almost too white in appearance. I assume its the result of a lens coating but it does a pretty good job of reducing blue color shift.
Just spoke to vortex this morning and it seems like they’re aware of turret inconsistency and issues. They offered to take my scope in and take a look but honestly I don’t feel like waiting 2-3 weeks at the moment and would like to have a bit more range time with it. Am gonna give it a few more range trips to see if the turrets improve and loosen up like you say, if not it’ll go back to vortex.
Basically what was on my “review” what I liked and didn’t like and what has been mentioned in this thread, inconsistency on turret operation. if you feel your turrets might be stiff as mine and you’re not using it I would send it in. Would be good to know if they can resolve issues in their shop.
We are very much aware and have been working diligently on ways to make everyone happier with their turrets. In the meantime please contact us at 800-4VORTEX and most likely we can make a nice improvement to the current feel for those of you that have too hard to turn and/or "mushy clicks".
Please dont ever hesitate to call us. We love talking to our customers. We appreciate everyone's feedback on this. It's what makes @lowlight 's forum so valuable to everyone!
Best Regards
Scott
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Thanks for this, Scott. Fwiw to you and interested Hide members, I got together with @Rob01 today to compare our Gen3s. My turrets and parallax knob are significantly harder to turn than his, and turret clicks on mine are noticeably more muted. The feel of both, more so with mine, is like the rotating bits are mired in very cold, stiff grease.
So I called in and got what I needed for service - fast and efficient. Scope is boxed up and will be dropped at a UPS pickup point tomorrow.
Looking forward to getting it back... match coming up on 19-March and, hopefully, notification will come out for one a week before on the 12th.
Would like to hear the outcome on this, keep us posted.
I was at the range on Thursday and checked out a friends new Gen3 Razor. I didn't really check out the glass because I'm 20 yrs older than him and I didn't want to mess with his fast focus diopter. It is a nice looking scope. The turrets, however were extremely stiff and the locking (up and down) of the turrets was also pretty stiff. Definitely needs to go back to Vortex. I've never felt turrets so stiff. I know Vortex is good to go as far as to fix this issue, but hopefully they get it done ASAP.....If I was looking to buy their scope right now I would pass and wait for the fix to happen. This is the 3rd Gen3 razor I got to handle and all 3 were pretty different with turrets.
You don’t need to mess with the diopter to look at the glass. That would only be for reticle focus.
And a fix is/will be coming as you saw above from Scott. Shouldn’t stop someone from buying one. The original run of AMG scopes had an issue with the Oring and grease in the knobs and when found they fixed them for any owner. Just one of those things.
And a fix is/will be coming as you saw above from Scott. Shouldn’t stop someone from buying one. The original run of AMG scopes had an issue with the Oring and grease in the knobs and when found they fixed them for any owner. Just one of those things.
I also wanted to see the reticle, which I do need to move the diopter. I prefer to see the glass and the reticle when looking at a scope. The glass can be awesome, but if I don't like the reticle the scope is a no go. I guess we can agree to disagree on buying one now, from the 3 scopes I saw, all 3 were drastically different. That's MY personal preference to not buy something right now that will 50/50 need to send back for repair. I DO know Vortex is good to go and will 100% fix the issue.
But you could still see the reticle even with not messing with it. It might not be crystal clear but your eye will adjust even if set different and give an idea of it. But it’s not too much different than the 7C with the small changes.
And yup agree to disagree but waiting might actually mean waiting list so up to the buyer if they want to roll the dice.
You’d think that would be the case but it is not often enough. When I shoot with friends and we look through each other’s scopes the image always seems a bit off, you play with side focus and it never appears to be fully in focus, but some fine tuning of the diopter clears it right up. So while we use diopter for reticle it can also be fined tuned for focus. I’ve adopted a new method of adjusting diopter and it has definitely increased the overall IQ through my scopes than the typical wall/sky method. I think wall/sky gets you about 90% there and the fine tuning gets you the rest of the way.
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