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Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56
- Thread starter jb1000br
- Start date
I’ve hear a lot of people say not to rely on the Spuhr wedge for reticle alignment over the last decade-ish. I’ve used the wedge on 7 G2 RZRs, 3 ATATCRs, 2 PM IIs, and 1 NX8. I’ve checked all with a plumb. Not one had a reticle off alignment with gravity. I trust but verify every time so it doesn’t matter to me, but how many people actually found a discrepancy with the recent line of scope coming out?
Yep. Guilty. However, I have never liked the Tremor or Horus reticles. WAY too much shit going on to be remotely near practical and it blocks a TON of your FOV and background image. If you're a sniper, and you're perched up in a hide with your main weapon being a precision rifle and you need to range without coming off the glass, or moving around, making noise, etc... Sure, it makes sense, but even comp people can't practically use that reticle in a quick enough manner to justify owning it, other than to say, "I run Horus reticles..." so retards at the gun stores will think you're a sniper or pro shooter.I just think the sport and gear is evolving and we're evolving with it. At one point not too long ago a Tremor 3 was the new hotness and commanded a few hundred bucks more to block your view and guys were doing it lol.
I'm who @stanley_white was talking about... A couple of years back I might have fallen into that "I need more sub-tensions so I can be more accurate" group... now I'm like "WTF are all these lines for? no one needs this shit".
Horus reticles have a lot of utility if you do the type of shooting they are designed for.
They are useful for rapid target engagement and unknown distance. I use them on my work guns and they work well, I do have minor complaints with the mover hash marks in the horizontal stadia line on the Tremor 3, and the refined milling portion is located in a less useful location than previous reticles. The Tremor 5 seems to be the best option currently.
They are useful for rapid target engagement and unknown distance. I use them on my work guns and they work well, I do have minor complaints with the mover hash marks in the horizontal stadia line on the Tremor 3, and the refined milling portion is located in a less useful location than previous reticles. The Tremor 5 seems to be the best option currently.
I have similar feelings. I tend to prefer the 7c in the G2 over the 7D in the G3. I find the reticle lines to be a little too thin/fine. I also agree the glass is better in the G3. A G3 with a 7c would be fantastic.
Alright... After a quick trip to Vortex, @Scott_at_Vortex determined there was an issue with the erector tube's alignment in my scope, and they replaced the erector and tube with a new one, cleaned all the lenses, and got everything else squared away on it and back into spec. It just came back in today, and I got it mounted back up on the .25 Creed, and bore-sighted off the old zero, and I'll be testing it out this weekend. Just looking inside the house, I can already tell it's much better as far as clarity (no discernible CA when moving my head off-center), but I'll give it a final seal of approval upon checking the reticle and parallax this weekend, after a good range trip out in the daylight.
Thanks for the quick turn-around Scott. Yall are awesome!
Thanks for the quick turn-around Scott. Yall are awesome!
The only trouble I'm having with mine is not getting to the range as often as I'd like.
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Ok, this new Razor Gen3 they sent me is night & day difference! I can actually focus on the target and the reticle at the same time. The parallax is MUCH closer at 100, but still slightly off, but I can deal with setting it on about 85 yards for 100. And even though it still has to be on around 200 for 300 yards, it's not the end of the world, the numbers are very close to each other, so I can deal with that being off. But there's no CA at all. The first one had horrible CA. And overall it's just a much better scope than the first example I was sent from EuroOptic.
Final thoughts, if this example is how they're supposed to be from the factory, I would have no problem buying another one for another rifle build in the future. And their warranty and CS was top-notch, as usual.
Final thoughts, if this example is how they're supposed to be from the factory, I would have no problem buying another one for another rifle build in the future. And their warranty and CS was top-notch, as usual.
The Razor G3's glass has basically made it impossible for me to pull the trigger on buying a ZCO... I just can't do it. As I heard someone put it before, unless one is maybe some sort of "professional scope reviewer" or something, their glass looks the same, and I cannot rationalize spending an extra ~$1500-2000+ more for the same glass quality (~$2500 for an RG3 vs $4250 + a new 36mm mount to go 8-40 ZCO).
The RG3 has changed the game in a way. When the ZCOs hit the scene I felt like they were probably worth their premium over the NF ATACRs they were competing against because they do have better glass than the ATACRs that were (and still are) pricey... but now the RG3s easily beat the ATACR's glass and equal the ZCO's, for a lot less money, so the whole value proposition has changed.
Please make a non-Xmas tree reticle Vortex, please?
The RG3 has changed the game in a way. When the ZCOs hit the scene I felt like they were probably worth their premium over the NF ATACRs they were competing against because they do have better glass than the ATACRs that were (and still are) pricey... but now the RG3s easily beat the ATACR's glass and equal the ZCO's, for a lot less money, so the whole value proposition has changed.
Please make a non-Xmas tree reticle Vortex, please?
I feel the exact same way but unfortunately I need 2 scopes for ELR builds and because Vortex doesn't build a non tree reticle I'm going to buy ZCOs in 8x40 with the IMPCT 1 reticle.
I actually talked to a Vortex engineer about a non tree reticle and he said it cost about $60k to add a reticle change and there just wasn't enough demand for it.
On another note I finally got to spend some time behind a ZCO 27x last week zeroing and shooting groups for a friend's rifle and for that task I greatly preferred the G3.
Vortex please build us a G3 without a tree reticle!
Reticles: I do not like the Xmas tree reticle, but it's the 'market' and I have to live with it. My Razor III's glass is 'stunning'! I compared it to my SB PMII, which is several years old, but the Razor's was better. And I have no issues with it.
From the research that i've done it seems like most of the issues were with the earlier scopes and newer production optics have remedied the common complaints.
I just picked up a second had new in box G3 and man...this thing is nice as hell.
Glass is bright. Turrets are crisp as hell. The locks on mine aren't quite as stiff as i'd like but i'm going to wait and see if its an issue when I try and dial during live fire.
Everything else on the optic is smooth as hell and I really like the reticle.
The eyebox is tighter than I expected but I may be spoiled by my MK5HD's. Those have REALLY forgiving eye boxes.
An MPCT1X knock off is the move right now. All I ask is companies stop putting out the alternating reticle thing we got going on with the SKMR+.
I decided to run a poll on reticle preference on my website. It is a little bit of a self-selecting sample, but so far it is roughly 2-to-1 in favor of tree-type reticles over hash-type reticles with exactly zero people favouring Horus-style grids. We'll see if that changes as more people vote.
I feel bad for that 69.2%.
It must be hard to go through life either knowing you are wrong or being ignorant of said wrongness.
-Stan
If that ratio persists and is representative of the broader customer base, it likely signifies that there is a market there for non-tree reticles. Hell, S&B did not have anything resembling a proper tree reticle in a precision scope (other than Gen2 XR in one model) until recently and they are still in business.I feel bad for that 69.2%.
It must be hard to go through life either knowing you are wrong or being ignorant of said wrongness.
-Stan
On the other hand, they were once the default choice on the high end and they are not any more. That mostly has something to do with pricing, but reticle selection is probably relevant too.
ILya
I'd honestly pay extra for a Razor G3 with a less complicated non-Xmas tree reticle.
I do not think it is going your way after a couple more days...I feel bad for that 69.2%.
It must be hard to go through life either knowing you are wrong or being ignorant of said wrongness.
-Stan
Oh I am supremely confident that I will lose as my value system points to products that most people wouldn’t buy.
-Stan
IMHO your results just represent the typical "monkey see, monkey do" mentality. Xmas-tree reticles became the most popular over the last 5+ years, and thus, since most don't want to go against the grain, most just stick with the herd.
Popularity doesn't always mean best though, evidenced by the Leupold Mark5HDs (arguably the crappiest of flagship scopes available, with the worst turrets and worst glass as compared to its competitors) being the most popular scope in the PRS (according to Cal at www.precisionrifleblog.com).
But... if you look at the current PRS Open standings, at least 3 or 4 (30-40%) of the top 10 peeps are running non-Xmas-tree reticles (TT JTAC and NF MIL-C).
So it's not just a couple of us fringe wierdos.
It is entirely possible that this is just a case of blind "going with the flow". Or it could simply be that different people shoot differently. Or it could simply be the case that depending on where you are different reticle make more sense.IMHO your results just represent the typical "monkey see, monkey do" mentality. Xmas-tree reticles became the most popular over the last 5+ years, and thus, since most don't want to go against the grain, most just stick with the herd.
Popularity doesn't always mean best though, evidenced by the Leupold Mark5HDs (arguably the crappiest of flagship scopes available, with the worst turrets and worst glass as compared to its competitors) being the most popular scope in the PRS (according to Cal at www.precisionrifleblog.com).
But... if you look at the current PRS Open standings, at least 3 or 4 (30-40%) of the top 10 peeps are running non-Xmas-tree reticles (TT JTAC and NF MIL-C).
So it's not just a couple of us fringe wierdos.
If it is simply a case of "mokey see mokey do" using your own observation about JTAC and Mil-C, we should see a bunch of people switching to simpler reticles next year. I doubt that will happen, but time will tell.
As far as Mark 5HD goes, there is really no mystery why it is popular in PRS. Leupold has dumped more money into marketing to PRS than any other brand and by a solid margin. On the other hand, Tangent does not really do any marketing and it seems to be doing pretty well in PRS/NRL.
Unless you find a way to normalize those rankings by marketing spending, they do not really do much.
Reticles are an individual choice. Personally, I prefer relatively moderate tree reticles since I do not find them to get in the way much and do use the tree relatively frequently. I do strongly prefer non-tree reticles for paper shooting for some reason. Go figure.
It is also entirely possible, that the benefits of a simpler reticles become more apparent as the skill level increases. If you dial for both elevation and wind, as some of the best shooters I have seen do, you have more to keep track of. Perhaps, that is simply harder for less capable shooters (me included) to keep track of on the clock.
Given a choice, I tend to use the reticle quite a lot at moderate distances. Once we get beyond 500 or so, I almost exclusively dial for elevation and hold for wind. Naturally, when I have Impact 4000 on the gun, I find myself using the reticle for both elevation and wind holds increasingly more since leaving the turrets alone simplifies using a weapon mounted LRF.
Then again, I am not really a PRS shooter and perhaps I look at things differently.
To be fair, I did not phrase the question in the poll as "what would you use for PRS". I asked what is your preferred reticle type for practical precison shooting.
ILya
I'm guilty of "monkey see, monkey do" too. I'm one of those guys that you correctly predicted would try a non-Xmas-tree reticle because I noticed some of the top pros weren't running them (Xmas-trees)... and as it turns out, my eyes/brain love it.
I haven't missed the tree one bit, as when I've maybe needed one for holdovers during a match, my brain sort of superimposes it anyway and it's like I see it even though it's not there. In fact, yesterday I shot a local match and got 14 impacts going back and forth between 300 and 600 yards in 60 seconds holding 4-5 tenths left for wind the whole time (while dialed for 300/1mil and holding an extra 2.5mils up for 600/3.5mils), no tree needed (it was as many impacts as you could get in 60 seconds, and I won the stage, but I think I also was the only guy there with a 14rd mag and everyone else needed to to do a mag change
). If conditions are spicy and one needs to hold more than a full-mil or so of wind and things could get wonky, then they're probably/arguably better off dialing some wind into the gun beforehand anyway.I can't be the only one who's noticed the same thing, and I'd bet the PR3-MIL will be an option on Leupold's next-gen Mark5HD (like in their new Mark4HD), and then, if it becomes the new hotness, Vortex will be playing catch-up...
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That's entirely possible. I do not have any especially strong opinions on the subject, to be honest. When I tried to figure out what works best for me, I got two identical March 5-42x56 scopes, one with a fml-tr1 tree reticle and one with fml-3 non tree reticle and went back and forth for a while.I'm guilty of "monkey see, monkey do" too. I'm one of those guys that you correctly predicted would try a non-Xmas-tree reticle because I noticed some of the top pros weren't running them (Xmas-trees)... and as it turns out, my eyes/brain love it.
I haven't missed the tree one bit, as when I've maybe needed one for holdovers during a match, my brain sort of superimposes it anyway and it's like I see it even though it's not there. In fact, yesterday I shot a local match and got 14 impacts going back and forth between 300 and 600 yards in 60 seconds holding 4-5 tenths left for wind the whole time (while zeroed for 300/1mil and holding 2.5mils up for 600), no tree needed (it was as many impacts as you could get in 60 seconds, and I won the stage, but I think I also was the only guy there with a 14rd mag and everyone else needed to to do a mag change
I can't be the only one who's noticed the same thing, and I'd bet the PR3-MIL will be an option on Leupold's next-gen Mark5HD (like in their new Mark4HD), and then, if it becomes the new hotness, Vortex will be playing catch-up...
I can use both comfortably, but somewhat prefer the tree reticle with all else being equal.
ILya
If only we could get Hornady to "Invent" ( I mean steal/copy) a non Xmas tree reticle and do the marketing for Vortex, can any of you guys make that happen???
I like my G3 so far but I've also quickly adopted the AB Quantum ballistics calculator but the EBR-7D reticle is not available to the app. I don't know what the issue is between Vortex and Applied Ballistics. I find the app easy to use, accurate, and it already covers my other scopes so it wins. If this can't be resolved, this is likely my first and last vortex.
Forgive my ignorance but how does not having a reticle profile in the app make it harder to use the ballistic solver?
That’s what I was thinking about… I mean, all you need to know is what your holdovers are for specific distances and then hold over in the practical a certain number of mils.
Which is the same thing that makes laser rangefinders so nice is that they will tell you exactly what your holds are at the exact distance you’re aiming at.
Which is the same thing that makes laser rangefinders so nice is that they will tell you exactly what your holds are at the exact distance you’re aiming at.
I am new at this. I like the visual. It has helped me learn how to use the reticles. Maybe I won't care in the future when I have more experience.
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I definitely don’t think you will. I’d just learn the way suggested so you can adapt it to any reticle. Using a specific reticle is almost like learning these niche tricks to solving math problems instead of just learning how to do it traditionally.
Vortex owns geo ballistics now, and they will likely be coming forth with some new products integrating it into their products, hopefully a razor HD lrf bino. This is why Vortex isn't handing stuff over to AB. They're soon to be competing for same market share.
Do you want the app to shoot the rifle for you too?
If it says 3, you hold or dial 3. If it says 5 you hold or dial 5.
Yep. Guilty. However, I have never liked the Tremor or Horus reticles. WAY too much shit going on to be remotely near practical and it blocks a TON of your FOV and background image. If you're a sniper, and you're perched up in a hide with your main weapon being a precision rifle and you need to range without coming off the glass, or moving around, making noise, etc... Sure, it makes sense, but even comp people can't practically use that reticle in a quick enough manner to justify owning it, other than to say, "I run Horus reticles..." so retards at the gun stores will think you're a sniper or pro shooter.
Thanks for the warning, I'm enlightened now and I guess the H reticles aren't practical in the least.
I wish I had known all this as I was winning the....
AZPRC championship two years in a row, that's 300y to 1450Y on steel, and rarely dialing.
Or in NRL22 winning a fair amount of those matches as well as the Western High Desert regional.
Or in FT air rifle winning state a few times.
Or the last two months at the Phoenix UFT air rifle match which I won.
Edit - also getting 2nd place at two larger precision rifle matches.
All using the H59, sometimes dialing, sometimes holding over.
Come to think of it I won my first long range steel match previous to the H59 using a Horus Predator 8-26x50 with whatever MOA reticle was in that scope and only holding with it.
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I won a USPSA state championship with a Kimber - that doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job, nor that better tools have come out since then.
Your sarcasm proves jack-shit. 1 vs. 100,000 other non-Horus reticle scopes being used in those comps worldwide.
However, amidst all your pointless drivel and egomania, you did make my point for me in your last sentence… If you know what you’re doing, you can win with just about anything…Ask Carlos Hathcock, or Chuck Mawhinny.
You still don’t need the H59. But for some folks, it’s just like Imaginationland, where “If you believe it to be real, then It’s real…” Whatever subconscious reinforcement you need that helps you win, helps you win.
