No shit - you actually bit on that??? I recommend iron sights (MOA or Mil) for you
BTW: _Raining - great points
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Rifle Scopes Vortex viper pst 2 MOA VS MRAD
- Thread starter Qwkcrss
- Start date
No shit - you actually bit on that??? I recommend iron sights (MOA or Mil) for you
BTW: _Raining - great points
This link contains vital information on Mils vs moa.
Myself, just bought the V PST and being an MOA shooter sense the Weaver days in the sixths, the range from 6 to 800 yards is a piece of cake, not the best line behind the scope abit of shade on the left side, my expm on mil. And moa is 3 clicks for mil
And for for moa
What the actual fuck is this shit.
Looking to do some distance shooting. I'm not very familiar with moa or mrad. What would you guys reccomend? Also ebr-2c or ebr-7c? From what I understand 7c is the updated reticle?
OP,
Dang, things sure got crazy. Please allow me to reel it back in, and to help you answer your question.
If you're not familiar with MOA or MRAD, then the best thing to to is to get familiar with both of them. Just keep this in mind: Radians and degrees are two different systems that have nothing to do with the metric system or the standard system; both measure angles, but in their own terms.
By angles, I mean this: Imagine that your muzzle is at the center of a great big circle, and the distance you are shooting is the outer edge of that circle. The circle is divided up into radians, and further into milliradians. The circle is also divided into degrees, which are further divided into minutes. So the circle is gradually chopped up into equal sizes that are measured in either mils or minutes.
A milliradian, or mil, measures 3.6" at 100 yards, or, 10 cm at 100 m.
A minute of angle measures 1.047" (1") at 100 yards, or, 3 cm at 100 m.
Or:
.25 MOA (.25"/100yds) at 1000 yards = 2.5". At 100 yards, 1 click on a 1/4 turret will be .25".
.1 mil (.36"/100yds) at 1,000 yards = 3.6". At 100 yards, 1 click on a .1mil turret will be .36".
As you can see, an MOA scope with 1/4-minute adjustments will be more precise than an MRAD scope with .1 mil adjustments.
The important thing is that whichever you choose, make sure the click adjustments are in the same system as the reticle; that is, if you get an MRAD scope, make sure the turrets are in .1 mils. Likewise, if you get a MOA scope, make sure the turrets are in minutes. In the old days, military scopes used MILDOT reticles and MOA turrets - two different systems of measurement.
Somebody earlier said that all you have to do is "use the ruler 3 inches from your face and make your mil adjustment." That implies you have a FFP scope; if not, you have to be on the correct magnification for that model scope for the stadia to be true to scale.
There is a certain amount of math you should learn when figuring out your adjustments. Someone said earlier that to do math to figure out linear measurement is overthinking it - not true. It's like learning a new language: The more you do it, the easier it gets until you don't have to translate anymore.
In the end, it's simply a matter of how precise you want to be. If you want to get mils because everybody else is using it, fine. If not, that's fine too. Whatever floats your boat. This is (still) America, so get whatever you want. Just have some knowledge upon which to base your decision.
OP,
Dang, things sure got crazy. Please allow me to reel it back in, and to help you answer your question.
If you're not familiar with MOA or MRAD, then the best thing to to is to get familiar with both of them. Just keep this in mind: Radians and degrees are two different systems that have nothing to do with the metric system or the standard system; both measure angles, but in their own terms.
By angles, I mean this: Imagine that your muzzle is at the center of a great big circle, and the distance you are shooting is the outer edge of that circle. The circle is divided up into radians, and further into milliradians. The circle is also divided into degrees, which are further divided into minutes. So the circle is gradually chopped up into equal sizes that are measured in either mils or minutes.
A milliradian, or mil, measures 3.6" at 100 yards, or, 10 cm at 100 m.
A minute of angle measures 1.047" (1") at 100 yards, or, 3 cm at 100 m.
Or:
.25 MOA (.25"/100yds) at 1000 yards = 2.5". At 100 yards, 1 click on a 1/4 turret will be .25".
.1 mil (.36"/100yds) at 1,000 yards = 3.6". At 100 yards, 1 click on a .1mil turret will be .36".
As you can see, an MOA scope with 1/4-minute adjustments will be more precise than an MRAD scope with .1 mil adjustments.
The important thing is that whichever you choose, make sure the click adjustments are in the same system as the reticle; that is, if you get an MRAD scope, make sure the turrets are in .1 mils. Likewise, if you get a MOA scope, make sure the turrets are in minutes. In the old days, military scopes used MILDOT reticles and MOA turrets - two different systems of measurement.
Somebody earlier said that all you have to do is "use the ruler 3 inches from your face and make your mil adjustment." That implies you have a FFP scope; if not, you have to be on the correct magnification for that model scope for the stadia to be true to scale.
There is a certain amount of math you should learn when figuring out your adjustments. Someone said earlier that to do math to figure out linear measurement is overthinking it - not true. It's like learning a new language: The more you do it, the easier it gets until you don't have to translate anymore.
In the end, it's simply a matter of how precise you want to be. If you want to get mils because everybody else is using it, fine. If not, that's fine too. Whatever floats your boat. This is (still) America, so get whatever you want. Just have some knowledge upon which to base your decision.
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And if you ever want to use your reticle to do any ranging, and you’re doing any sort of math in the field, you’re wrong.
If you plan on using your reticle for ranging, that means you already know what size target/s you’re looking at and you should already have charts made for said targets.
Should be a flash mil/moa and a quick glance are chart and dope.
So, the point of which to us mil or moa for ranging is a moot point. You can do the long hand match at home and it doesn’t matter.
There’s too many inaccuracies or bad assumptions in this post to list.
This,
I use MOA as it's much simpler for me to understand.
1" at 100yards just makes sense, why you would want to learn the metric system just to fit in at the range is beyond me.
Why would you need to know the metric system to use mils? Use it the same way as you use a moa scope. See miss......measure miss with reticle......dial correction in scope. No math. No metric system. No linear distance to guess. I just don't get why you guys make it so difficult and think you need to know the metric system. Unless you are just trying to make it harder than it needs to be.
By the time some of you finish all these metric linear quantum calculations I would have engaged 3 targets plus corrections on follow up shots and left the area....
Some people are always trying to ice skate up hill....
Some people are always trying to ice skate up hill....
The worst you will ever be off by with 1/4 MOA per click turrets is 1/8 MOA. The worst you will ever be off by with .1 MIL per click turrets is .05 MIL. So the worst possible case for the difference between a 1/4 MOA per click scope and a .1 MIL per click scope is .047 MOA. Which is .49 inches at 1000 yards AKA fucking negligible.
You were doing so well.........until this.
There is only one, and only one, instance in which you need to know how to translate the linear difference between POA and POI to make a correction. That's when you have a scope without angular stadia lines on the reticle, like a duplex, fine cross hair, or 4A reticle AND you're shooting on a target that doesn't have a milliradian or MOA grid printed on it. Then you either guess and click, or go downrange, measure with a ruler, then do the quick conversion between inches and MOA or mils.
At any other time, you use the ruler 3" in front of your face. I see the impact, I place my reticle center on the impact spot, I read the stadia to see how many mils or minutes exist between the impact spot and the center of the target, I shift the reticle that amount in the opposite direction or I dial that amount using the windage and/or elevation turret. Not one single math operation needed.
What you're saying is the equivalent to needing to know that mph = kmh/1.6 to be able to drive a European car in Europe. No dummy, you match the speedometer needle with the numbers on the speed limit sign. Sign says 100, you don't let the car exceed 100 km/h as shown on the speedometer.
Why can't people grasp this simple shit is beyond me
Mils or MOA which is right for you
Milliradian, Minute of Angle, Inch per Hundred Yards, Shooter MOA versus Mils versus True MOA is the questions we are all asking. Mils vs MOA Threads
www.snipershide.com
Listen guys...
Mils and minutes are neither the metric system nor the standard system.
A radian is an arc of a circle where the length of the arc is the same length as the radius.
A circle has 6.2832 radians. Cut up the radian into 1,000 equal pieces, and you have a mil. A “milliradian”, or “mil”, is 1 thousandth (.001) of a radian.
You, the shooter, are at the center of the circle, and your target is at the edge of the circle. The radius of the circle is the distance between you and your target.
Let’s say your target is at 100 yards. That means the radius of your circle is 100 yards; that means the radian arc is also 100 yards. There are 36” in a yard. In 100 yards there are 3,600 inches. Your radius is 3,600", therefore your radian is 3,600”.
Cut up that radian of 3,600" into 1,000 equal parts and you end up 3.6” per mil at 100 yards.
Now…
A circle has 360 degrees. At 60 minutes per degree, there are 21,600 minutes in a circle.
A circle has 6,283.2 mils.
21,600 minutes / 6,283.2 mils = 3.4377 minutes per mil. That means there are 3.4377, or 3.43, or, 3.5 minutes from center to center of the dots in a MILDOT reticle.
3.6 inches per mil / 3.4377 minutes per mil = 1.047 inches per minute, at 100 yards.
Can you dig it???
You don't need grids or go downrange with a ruler and bla bla bla. If you can guess how far off you missed by, you can dial in what's appropriate. If your at 400 yards and you miss by approximately 6", what's that, 1.5 minutes? Dial in 6 clicks on a 1/4-minute adjustment MOA scope. It's 6 divided by 4. What's the big deal??? Miss by 6" at 840 yards, that's 6/8.4. What's that, .7 minutes, about 3 clicks? Again, what's the big damned deal? It takes getting used to, but after a while it gets easier, and you start to remember all those values.
If the way you do your glorified Kentucky windage suits you, fine, do it your way, I could give a rat's ass. All I'm sayng is, being able to do the math is like having another tool in your box.
Mils and minutes are neither the metric system nor the standard system.
A radian is an arc of a circle where the length of the arc is the same length as the radius.
A circle has 6.2832 radians. Cut up the radian into 1,000 equal pieces, and you have a mil. A “milliradian”, or “mil”, is 1 thousandth (.001) of a radian.
You, the shooter, are at the center of the circle, and your target is at the edge of the circle. The radius of the circle is the distance between you and your target.
Let’s say your target is at 100 yards. That means the radius of your circle is 100 yards; that means the radian arc is also 100 yards. There are 36” in a yard. In 100 yards there are 3,600 inches. Your radius is 3,600", therefore your radian is 3,600”.
Cut up that radian of 3,600" into 1,000 equal parts and you end up 3.6” per mil at 100 yards.
Now…
A circle has 360 degrees. At 60 minutes per degree, there are 21,600 minutes in a circle.
A circle has 6,283.2 mils.
21,600 minutes / 6,283.2 mils = 3.4377 minutes per mil. That means there are 3.4377, or 3.43, or, 3.5 minutes from center to center of the dots in a MILDOT reticle.
3.6 inches per mil / 3.4377 minutes per mil = 1.047 inches per minute, at 100 yards.
Can you dig it???
No, that's NOT what I'm saying.
You don't need grids or go downrange with a ruler and bla bla bla. If you can guess how far off you missed by, you can dial in what's appropriate. If your at 400 yards and you miss by approximately 6", what's that, 1.5 minutes? Dial in 6 clicks on a 1/4-minute adjustment MOA scope. It's 6 divided by 4. What's the big deal??? Miss by 6" at 840 yards, that's 6/8.4. What's that, .7 minutes, about 3 clicks? Again, what's the big damned deal? It takes getting used to, but after a while it gets easier, and you start to remember all those values.
If the way you do your glorified Kentucky windage suits you, fine, do it your way, I could give a rat's ass. All I'm sayng is, being able to do the math is like having another tool in your box.
Except that Mils are metric, they are just a derived unit instead of natural. SO you are technically wrong before any actual math comes into it at all.
If you miss at 400 yards just adjust however much your reticle is telling you to, you dont need to know how many inches you are off of anything. So the big damn deal is that you are making work where none exists because you are too damn stupid to realize that the answer you are looking for is already given to you so trying to figure it out is an effort in futility.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW ANY UNIT OF LENGTH
And since you touched on it
YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW # OF CLICKS
If you miss at 400 yards just adjust however much your reticle is telling you to, you dont need to know how many inches you are off of anything. So the big damn deal is that you are making work where none exists because you are too damn stupid to realize that the answer you are looking for is already given to you so trying to figure it out is an effort in futility.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW ANY UNIT OF LENGTH
And since you touched on it
YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW # OF CLICKS
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What reticle are you using that forces you to guess your misses in inches and then convert to minutes to make your adjustment? 308Pirate isn't talking about Kentucky windage. He's doing the same thing you are without wasting his time guessing his misses in inches and converting back to moa/mils. His reticle, 3 inches from his face, is giving him that information.
We understand what you are saying and all the numbers are correct, but it gets back to the very basic question. If you miss at 400 yards ( or any distance), why would you guess at how far your miss was from POI, then calculate how many moa or mils that is at that shooting distance, to make a correction? When the easy and much more accurate way is just measure it with your reticle. You went into great detail explaining how moa and mil are both angular, but then go back to guessing at a linear distance for your miss and doing math to calculate a correction. THAT is glorified Kentucky windage, not using your reticle (the calibrated ruler) to do an accurate measurement.
I get the feeling some people here have to wear eye protection when eating with a fork.
Holy mother of God...………….listen to your own nonsense.
First of all, every fucking call I've ever heard about "6 in low" or whatever has been way the fuck off. 99% of the people that I've seen spotting for others don't have an earthly clue about how to do it correctly.
Second of all, this is a forum for precision marksmanship and its users overwhelmingly prefer to use scopes with reticles that have stadia lines calibrated in either mils (mostly) or MOA. Using them, all your guesses and math are unnecessary. Yes, we fucking know how to convert inches to mils or minutes. It's fucking elementary AND unnecessary unless you're a fudd using a duplex reticle and slinging lead at random.
You're either intentionally obstinate or too fucking obtuse to understand what you're reading.
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We should change minuteman to idiot, that seems to be the crux of the issue: new people hoping on thinking that they know shit without first having bothered to learn it.
Thanks to all of you, I've had to crack open my last bottle of Jack and add it to my morning coffee! This has been quite entertaining, but now I'm totally confused! I'll never be able to look at my reticle the same way again! Mac
We have finally found the first person who is able to accurately gauge his miss down to inches at 840 yds.
Pack it up folks. We found him.
Thanks to all of you, I've had to crack open my last bottle of Jack and add it to my morning coffee! This has been quite entertaining, but now I'm totally confused! I'll never be able to look at my reticle the same way again! Mac
Stop looking at the reticle man. You gotta feeeeel the reticle. Feeeeel those inches at 100 yards man.
If we just didn’t respond to the weekly moa vs mil bullshit, then maybe the fng’s will use the search function. This shit is literally been discussed since the old old hide.
Dafuq you got against MOA?
World wars have been won with MOA.
The imperial system got us to the moon.
You can keep your metric centremills along with your soy latte!
I can't see my bullet holes (Groups) well on paper past 500 yards (300 yards w/mirage) - much less 1000 yards - even with a Vortex 60X 80mm HD spotting scope. - just the trace. There is no correction to measure with my reticle because I can't see this through a smaller 27X 56mm rifle scope . I go to my target - #1 circle my group and mark center. #2 measure the distance the group is off from bullseye. #3 determine (based on math) how much I need to adjust my turrets when I get back to my rifle/scope to correct this distance - this IS precision shooting.
If I am banging steel at different distances then yes I correct using my reticle to get on target - if - I can see where the round hit - this is NOT precision shooting.
I would do anything though to have "that guy" tell me one more time to "use that ruler 3 inches in front of my face" on my SFP scope
If I am banging steel at different distances then yes I correct using my reticle to get on target - if - I can see where the round hit - this is NOT precision shooting.
I would do anything though to have "that guy" tell me one more time to "use that ruler 3 inches in front of my face" on my SFP scope
I agree that Mils and MOA work exactly the same- and you use your reticle to make corrections. But I also think that when someone says that they "think in inches" it is not as dumb of a statement as people make it out to be. The other day I was shooting with a new shooter that had a Vortex with a BDC reticle. He wanted to shoot at the 1000 yard target and had no data on his ammo. I looked at the trajectory info on the box for 1000 yards and easily new what to have him dial. If he had a mil scope it would have been just a second of math for me to adjust. And the info was accurate enough that he hit the bottom of the plate.
If you are using the correct equipment, have all your info and your other ducks in a row it makes no difference what one you use.
If you are using the correct equipment, have all your info and your other ducks in a row it makes no difference what one you use.
I can't see my bullet holes (Groups) well on paper past 500 yards (300 yards w/mirage) - much less 1000 yards - even with a Vortex 60X 80mm HD spotting scope. - just the trace. There is no correction to measure with my reticle because I can't see this through a smaller 27X 56mm rifle scope . I go to my target - #1 circle my group and mark center. #2 measure the distance the group is off from bullseye. #3 determine (based on math) how much I need to adjust my turrets when I get back to my rifle/scope to correct this distance - this IS precision shooting.
If I am banging steel at different distances then yes I correct using my reticle to get on target - if - I can see where the round hit - this is NOT precision shooting.
I would do anything though to have "that guy" tell me one more time to "use that ruler 3 inches in front of my face" on my SFP scope
Someone explain why you can’t use the reticle as a ruler in a sfp optic?
Cause apparently, I’ve been using my sfp optics wrong. Or getting luck......
This is one of the worst examples I’ve ever seen for thinking in inches working better in moa.
How hard is it to use the conversion .3mil for every moa?
Works perfectly fine in this example as you’re just trying to get him in the area and then on steel.
