Rifle Scopes Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Jon A

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Nov 13, 2006
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OK, I know everybody is anxious to here about these, so here are my initial thoughts. Both good and bad.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">First the good:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Size/weight:</span> Very nice, especially for a hunting rig or any other rifle where the 30+ oz tactical scopes are not desirable.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Reticle:</span> Outstanding reticle, it should do pretty much anything you'd want to do with such a scope.

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<span style="font-weight: bold">Illumination:</span> The knob is nice and stiff, unlikely to get turned on accidentally. The brightness is very good for this type of scope. What you worry about with a scope in this price range where so much of the reticle illuminates is that even on its lowest setting the illumination will be too bright and wash out your view of the target in low light.

Not a problem with this illumination. The lower settings are so low you won't likely ever use them unless you're using NV. You can crank it up just until you can see the reticle without any problems washing out the target.

It isn't daytime visible, but I generally don't expect or want that in a scope of this power range. It is bright enough on 10 that it can be seen in gloomy-to dusk conditions even on 4X, which really helps reticle visibility in those conditions so it should work fine for brush hunting as the light fades (it'd be a bit too thin for that without the illumination in my opinion).

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<span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets: </span> Very nice looking, have a quality feel and sound. The zero stop works well to keep you from getting lost on the dial.

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<span style="font-weight: bold">Tracking Repeatability:</span> The tracking has been very repeatable in testing, always going back to the same spot. The reticle moves smoothly with no hesitations or hangups or other evidence of sticking.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">The Bad:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets:</span> While they do have a quality feel, it's much the same quality feel of my 6.5-20 Viper or you'd expect on a BR scope with covered turrets. The PST's turrets are too easy to turn for uncovered turrets. To hunt with these I'd at least tape up the windage and would feel better taping up the elevation--which sort of goes against the whole reason to have them in the first place. It's a good thing it has a zero stop, because you'll be checking it often.

I may try finding fatter O-rings or something in the future to stiffen them up. Hopefully something workable can be figured out.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Glass: </span> Yes, I was a bit disappointed with the glass. Maybe my expectations were not realistic knowing the price range of the scope, but I was hoping for better. It's not bad, there are no big flaws, it's just not as clear and sharp as I had hoped on the higher powers. I'd say it's roughly the same as the 6.5-20X50 Viper, which I think is quite good for a $400 scope, but I was hoping for a bit better with this one.

Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly usable and looks quite good on the lower powers, but if you've been spoiled by top level glass, this is a noticeable downgrade.

Of course, in a scope like this, especially at this price range, there are more important things than glass quality, which brings me to:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Tracking Accuracy: </span> While the tracking is repeatable, my particular scope has a couple problems with its accuracy. Hopefully I got a bum one and other units are not like this, I know Vortex can do better because my 6.5-20 does not suffer from these problems. Nevertheless, this scope has them--which is why I meticulously measure every scope I buy.

Problem #1: The reticle is canted by roughly 1.2 degrees with respect to erector movement. It's not enough to be obvious to the eye, but it's enough to cause problems. This means for every 10 mils you click up, you need to click to the right two clicks in order to keep from dialing windage you didn't want. This may not be an issue for some who don't shoot long range or who will primarily use the reticle for holdover but it's not acceptable to me on a tactical scope. I know it's well within specs of some manufacturers (such as Leupold) but I expect more from Vortex. My cheaper 6.5-20 Viper has no measurable cant to the reticle. Hopefully this particular scope is an aberration and not representative of the other PST's out there.

Problem #2: The click value is about 3% off. 97 clicks moves 10 Mils, even by measure of its own reticle--which seems to be sized accurately (within 1%)--as well as the collimator. I know historically many scopes have perpetually been even farther off than that, and I know that even some pretty expensive tactical scopes still have a +/- 2% tolerance, but it's hard for me to be happy with a scope that is that far off. With the good ballistic programs we have these days it's easy to compensate for, but having to do so by such a large amount does not make me happy with a scope. Again, the cheaper 6.5-20 Viper measures within 1% so a PST with this large an error just isn't right.

I plan to return the scope for the last two problems as they're not acceptable to me, especially both problems combined. Hopefully I got a bad apple and others aren't like this. There's nothing intrinsic to the design that should make them all the same as mine in these aspects, so hopefully they aren't.

The glass and turret stiffness may be disappointments, but they don't keep the scope from being functional which is what's most important. Obviously, especially in this price range, one can't expect the perfection and stunning glass one does on a $2000 or $3000 scope so functioning correctly and getting the job done is what's most important. I do think these scopes can do that if the last two problems with my particular unit are not present.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

This is a great review, thanks. Gives us a lot to consider. Everyday I start to sway a little more toward going with an IOR over this, but for now I'm keeping my order in place.

What's your impression of eye box/eye relief at highest mag?
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Good review, I am glad to see a good honest evaluation.

I have been watching with interest, especially the rush to pre-order, the rabid following and people swearing that these were going to be the best tactical scopes ever created in the history of mankind. I voiced my concerns a couple of months ago in reference to the price point and the fact that the scope is being assembled in a third world country where the average per capita income is actually lower than that of China.

I hope for nothing but success for Vortex with this line of optics as they have done an incredible job of attempting to provide the tactical shooter with a scope that meets all their requirements for a reasonable sum of money.

I think perhaps they bit off more than they could chew on these.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a great review, thanks. Gives us a lot to consider. Everyday I start to sway a little more toward going with an IOR over this, but for now I'm keeping my order in place.

What's your impression of eye box/eye relief at highest mag? </div></div>

I'm also debating between the two now. I was set on a PST for a while (pending first person reviews when they came out). I have an IOR 3-18x42 Gen 4 on my 308 and the scope is fantastic (the glass is beautiful). I was thinking of a 2-12... but that would be adding another couple of 100 on top of the price of a PST...

In any case, thanks to the OP for the honest review (and nice pictures)!
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressio

Is it worth the money? Should I cancel my order and go with a IOR or NF? Two members here get their optics and both are sending them back. It is not looking good so far.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Nice review.

I have to say the illumination while I don't use it much and I can certainly understand having the lower settings for NV it seems they could have done a better job to get it visible in brighter conditions as well.

It's unfortunate that the glass and knobs are good, but it doesn't sound like they are up to the quality I would have hoped for at the price range. While certainly I didn't expect SB/PH quality, above their $400 viper scopes would be nice. Reticule cant and inaccuracy in the click values is very unfortunate as well, hopefully it's one that slipped by QC and not the norm.

Time will tell but I have to say at least for now till we get more reports I'm glad I didn't hop on the beta tester wagon.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pistolpete75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the honest review. Looks like you can't get a 2k quality scope for $800 bucks. </div></div>

Im so surprised!

You mean there ARE compromises to get a FFP with decent glass and featureset that is illuminated at $1k price point?
laugh.gif


Nice review. I was willing to waive the bad right down until we got to the click values being 3% off. 1% ok. 2% uh, maybe. 3% is just pushing it too far. My scope should be ENABLING my target solution, not making it more complicated to get to. Hopefully that was just a fluke.

We all also have to remember that the people making it to the web with posts about thier new scope are going to be a higher ratio of problems at first both because this is the first box of scopes going out and also because the folks having positive experiences are both generally less vociferous AND take longer to say something when they do choose to comment.

Every negative comment will reach multiple times more people than a positive one.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Thanks for the upfront and GREAT review! If this forum had a karma button I'd give ya a few...

Building my first 'long range tactical rifle' and have pre-ordered one of these scopes. I wanted to start off 'right' with a ffp/mil/mil scope and was actually going to go with a Falcon (Both Al and Glenn from Seekins are helping me with the build). The rifle will see shooting throughout the year and 2-3 hunting trips per year as well. I don't think starting out this scope will be the limit of my shooting ability (it sure is the limit for my budget though, full time college student working a summer job with no scholarships). Anyways here's my question:

If the turret adjustments are 3% off on this scope, then in thinking that say a 180 grain bullet with a G1 BC of say .56 traveling at 2900 fps will drop 8.25 mils at 1K yards with correct elevation and humidity, then the adjustment if dialing for 8.2 mils will be off about .88"? (8.2(mils)*3.6(inches) = 29.52" of intended adjustment. => 29.52" *.97 = 28.63" of ACTUAL adjustment) or is my thinking way off here?

Those are just supposed inputs and I'm very new to this game so please allow for newbie mistakes... If at 1000 yds the adjustment is off by only .88" then I can definitely live with that.

Mike
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I don't know how many scopes went out on this initial shipment, but it isn't like we are seeing tons of horror stories, just a couple of glitches so far.
We know that Vortex will make it right as they are a real stand up company, but it does bear watching.

I would really like to see a completely unbiased comparison now between the Vortex and the Bushnell 4200 series.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Mmmm, lots to think about now. Great review but it is still early.

I'm at the point now where I think I'm going to need to actually look through one before plunking down a grand on one. I'm really in the market for an upgrade to my Falcon 5.5-25x for bolt gun.... but I'm actually still pretty happy with it. If I'm going to pay double for a marginal gain over the Falcon - I'd just rather pony up the extra $1000 and get a Leupold, IOR or NF. I WAS going to use the extra $$ to rebarrel my Rem 700 - but I'd rather get good glass right now.

Is anyone in the Las Vegas area getting one of these early scopes? If so, I'd love to take a look before I jump on the bandwagon.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Money to me is a problem but my biggest disappointment is the lack of options in a lower weight scope.
It sure would be nice if there was a Nightforce FFP mil/mil with more than 15 power that didn't weight a half pound more.

What techniques can I use to check out the cant of the reticle etc. like the OP did?
We can get another scope checked out and see if there is a pattern or not.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyways here's my question:

If the turret adjustments are 3% off on this scope, then in thinking that say a 180 grain bullet with a G1 BC of say .56 traveling at 2900 fps will drop 8.25 mils at 1K yards with correct elevation and humidity, then the adjustment if dialing for 8.2 mils will be off about .88"? (8.2(mils)*3.6(inches) = 29.52" of intended adjustment. => 29.52" *.97 = 28.63" of ACTUAL adjustment) or is my thinking way off here?

Those are just supposed inputs and I'm very new to this game so please allow for newbie mistakes... If at 1000 yds the adjustment is off by only .88" then I can definitely live with that.

Mike </div></div>

I guess it depends on what kind of caliber you're shooting. If its a 338LM, 3% at 1k is probably not a big deal. However, in the instance of my .308 - I need about 11 mils to get to 1000 yds. If its 3% off, that's .33 mils. At 1000 yards - that's about 33 cm or 13 inches. With the steel targets I shoot at, thats a miss.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Thank you very much for the review.

It is always nice to hear both the good and the bad.

Will be interesting to see where it lands in the spectrum of quality for these.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressio

Op, don't take this as bashing. But how many rounds have you fired with said scope? Have you box tested it? Have you dialed it up and down, firing, while checking previous dope? Are you 150% positive that the reticle while mounted is canted from a scope flaw and not from a scope mounting error? I appreciate the time you put into your review, but how about a review after a couple of hundred rounds t&e?

Not to flame or bash, just want to help keep things balance.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressio

Originally Posted By: BigJohnson
Anyways here's my question:

If the turret adjustments are 3% off on this scope, then in thinking that say a 180 grain bullet with a G1 BC of say .56 traveling at 2900 fps will drop 8.25 mils at 1K yards with correct elevation and humidity, then the adjustment if dialing for 8.2 mils will be off about .88"? (8.2(mils)*3.6(inches) = 29.52" of intended adjustment. => 29.52" *.97 = 28.63" of ACTUAL adjustment) or is my thinking way off here?

Those are just supposed inputs and I'm very new to this game so please allow for newbie mistakes... If at 1000 yds the adjustment is off by only .88" then I can definitely live with that.

Mike


I guess it depends on what kind of caliber you're shooting. If its a 338LM, 3% at 1k is probably not a big deal. However, in the instance of my .308 - I need about 11 mils to get to 1000 yds. If its 3% off, that's .33 mils. At 1000 yards - that's about 33 cm or 13 inches. With the steel targets I shoot at, thats a miss.


Say they are off by 2,3%.
My question is this, if you use a ballistics calulator you can account for this. Or if you go out and dope your load then you got your click count as long as it is repeatable it should work right?
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Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Anyone here that has one, can you 'compare' the glass quality to other popular Scopes out there?
I know it is a subjective comparison, but I have a couple millett Scopes that have 'satisfactory' glass. I have a PST on order to replace them. Am I gonna be disappointed that I spent an extra $600 in search of better quality glass?
I'm starting to think I should pony up an extra $600 for a nightforce, or an extra grand for the razor or similar. I plan to transfer this scope from rifle to rifle, from .223 to .308 to 338lp...at $2.50/rd on the 338's the only excuse I want for a miss is me, not my equipment.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressio

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieseldr99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Say they are off by 2,3%.
My question is this, if you use a ballistics calulator you can account for this. Or if you go out and dope your load then you got your click count as long as it is repeatable it should work right?

</div></div>

I use ballistic calculators a lot and I've never seen an entry data field in any of them that allow you to list how many % off your turrets are. Not trying to be a smart ass, but yet one more calculation to account for an intrinsic error is unacceptable, IMHO.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressio

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Coker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it worth the money? </div></div>
If I get one without the tracking errors (and I have no reason to believe I won't), I certainly think it is. While I may sound a bit disappointed, we need to keep things in perspective and look at the big picture.

The closest competitor to this scope would probably be the Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 ER/T which costs nearly twice as much and doesn't have illumination or a zero stop and I can't think of any advantage that scope would have over this one to come close to justifying the money.

I also have a 6-24 PST on order that should be in the second batch and I have no intention of canceling it. So while there may be some bumps in the road and some expectations may come back to earth a bit, let's not panic. I still think they will prove to be very good scopes at a great price and will be an excellent value.

I really hated to have to report the issues as I knew it may get overblown a bit, but I felt obligated to tell it like it is. I hope people can keep the proper perspective.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressio

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wanted to start off 'right' with a ffp/mil/mil scope and was actually going to go with a Falcon</div></div>
I wouldn't get a Falcon. I'd take this scope any day of the week and three times on Sunday over a Falcon. Like I said, let's keep perspective. This scope is in a whole different class than the Falcon, as is the warranty and customer service.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">then the adjustment if dialing for 8.2 mils will be off about .88"? (8.2(mils)*3.6(inches) = 29.52" of intended adjustment. => 29.52" *.97 = 28.63" of ACTUAL adjustment) or is my thinking way off here?</div></div>
Not way off, just a factor of 10.
smile.gif
You're at 1000 yds, not 100 so you should have used 36" instead of 3.6, giving you 8.8" of error.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use ballistic calculators a lot and I've never seen an entry data field in any of them that allow you to list how many % off your turrets are. Not trying to be a smart ass, but yet one more calculation to account for an intrinsic error is unacceptable, IMHO. </div></div>
There are quite a few that do. Quicktarget on PC will, JBM online which is one of the most commonly used will, Shooter for the DROID will, etc. Most good programs these days should which does make it less of an issue.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressio

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Op, don't take this as bashing. But how many rounds have you fired with said scope? Have you box tested it? Have you dialed it up and down, firing, while checking previous dope? Are you 150% positive that the reticle while mounted is canted from a scope flaw and not from a scope mounting error? I appreciate the time you put into your review, but how about a review after a couple of hundred rounds t&e? </div></div>
Those attributes were observed with extensive turret twisting while viewing through a collimator, which is the most accurate way to measure those things. A million rounds fired downrange won't make the reticle straight nor change the click value.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a couple millett Scopes that have 'satisfactory' glass. I have a PST on order to replace them. Am I gonna be disappointed that I spent an extra $600 in search of better quality glass?</div></div>
No. If you think the Millets are OK you will think the PST is fantastic. Like I said, things need to be kept in perspective.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enkry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">am I the only one that thinks 800 - $1000 glass should be very good!! not the best but very good!! </div></div>

It all depends on who is looking through it. He might just be picky. I expected them to have glass about like a leupold VX3 or maybe a Nikon Monarch, if they are that good then they aren't IOR/Nightforce level but they will be "good enough" which is really all you need (especially when you consider that it comes with FFP, knobs matching, nice reticle etc).
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

No, but I think a lot of the money is spent of the FFP aspect of the scope. I don't need FFP that bad - I value EXCELLENT glass and PRECISE tracking, and PROVEN performance far more than the convenience of a First Focal Plane reticle...
With that in mind, it sounds like there is some teething that these scopes need to go through, so it looks like there will be one more 6-24FFP MOA scope available as I just ordered a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 with the NP-R1 reticle. A little more money, but I know what it's capable of and it's a proven scope. Nothing against Vortex, and i am sure this will be an excellent scope line, but I've been the guinea pig too many times before.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I apologize in advance if this is a really stupid question, but I have no desire to wade through months of previous PST threads.....

Is the glass in the PST the same as the regular Viper but the PST has all the extra goodies? Or is it a totally different scope including better glass?
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pachinko Pistola</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm thinking about canceling my order after reading this. I can always reorder in a few months if the reviews improve. </div></div>

I have been holding off on my urge to pre-order until the field review is out. Looks like I will stick with IOR.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little more money</div></div>

I really like the nightforce 5.5-22 but to say that it's only a "little more money" is a bit of a stretch. There's one at my local store for 1632, 5.5-22 with matching MOA reticle and knobs but still SFP.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

honestly i can't believe all these comments. really what did you guys expect? it is ffp, matching knobs/reticle, illuminated w/zero stops all for under $900. something has to give to get all those features in that price range. the closest scope in that catagory is the vortex razor or falcon menace. razor is twice the price and falcon is half the price, so to me people are expecting way to much out of these. For fuck sake if they had nxs quality glass and repeatablilty and were durable they would own the market. needless to say i don't see that in the near future.

just remember to match your expectations with the pricetag!!!
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

I have to agree with diggler44. One has to keep the price vs performance in perspective. Don't expect twice the sex for half the foreplay.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

why are you guys flipping out over 3% this or that? are you not going to shoot the scope more than once? or only depend on a ballistic calc for each shot to track your dope? So you shoot and you dope is 11mils instead of 10.7 at 1000yds... ok so what... next time you shoot in simular conditions it is going to be 11 again.

shoot with it, get to know it, and if it is repeatable it is good to go ...

sure would i want a scope that was perfect in everyway ... but you wont get one for 900$.

i am curious how you measured your reticle cant though...
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

No one else has mentioned this but the reticle seems very useful, there is a tremendous range in the focal adjustment, it has a rapid focus for he reticle as well as a very good range in this focus. In the half hour or so I've spent behind this scope I would rate it as a good value and very shootable. JMNHO
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Just relax and breathe....some forgot to breath when hyping and some now...

I think the author wrote great honest and factual review and there will be plenty more coming when scopes become more available. So until then just wait and see if the scope will finally be worth 900$ or not... This scope barely started it life it has yet to prove its worth during use (many rifles/rounds in the future one will safely be able to say was it as good as some hoped - people really believe that you can get a BMW for the price of a beetle well you can't live with it or get yourself a 3k+ gizmo and be happy member of exclusive club you sure aint gonna shoot better cause of it.).
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Gotta agree with diggler44,you get what you pay for.With all the bells and whistles this thing has,someyhing has got to give for that kind of money.

Guess the guys shelling out the $$$ for IOR and NF don't look so stupid after all.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

Well you helped me decide to pick a different scope, after hearing several bad reviews. I'll go with a Leupold before I go with one of these, never had any problems like this with my Leupolds.
 
Re: Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP Initial Impressions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
just remember to match your expectations with the pricetag!!! </div></div>

Yeah, seems a lot of people were expecting champagne on a beer budget type of thing.

People need to be realistic.