Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

[utnapishtim]

I have an Omega Seamaster, which I've owned and enjoyd with pride for a few years now. It keeps perfect time, seems nearly indestructable, and looks great.

Recently, a relative-in-law was looking at it and said, somewhat condescendngly, "Oh. You got the quartz.". He went on to explain that it wasn't really anything more than a pretty digital watch.

So, my question is this. Why would you want a mechanical watch more than a quartz? I understand that the sweepig second hand is pretty, and there is some nestalgia associated to the fine craftsmanship of a mechanical watch. . . But aren't they unreliable, highly delicate, and require regular maintenance? I chose a quartz for it's accuracy and reliabilty. Should I feel like I have any less of a watch?

 

[Pat M]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Some watch prices are insane, it tells time, maybe date, month, and if fancy it has a altimeter or ballistic computer ($200) not $$$$$$$ = for that kind of money it better produce a force field or alarm that gives me BJ's to wake me up in the morning.

 

[fx77]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

A watch it to tell time...
Quartz is always more accurate than mechanical. Less maint and fewer moving parts. Usually cheaper.

The rest is jewelry...something for the spouse.

 

[poison123]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Its called "class", there are some situations that require it.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fx77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A watch it to tell time...
Quartz is always more accurate than mechanical. Less maint and fewer moving parts. Usually cheaper.

The rest is jewelry...something for the spouse. </div></div>

Atomic watches tell time.....

the rest are pretty bangles on your wrist.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its called "class", there are some situations that require it. </div></div>

I agree. At least you are honset enough to say it is not for telling time (accurate time) though.

 

[poison123]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

My breitling is super accurate. But thats not why I bought it, when you work certain jobs, or hang in certain circles you just have to buy the nice things.

For instance, what does a 5k fitted suit do over a 500 dollar suit bought off the rack?

*shrugs*

 

[jasonk]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

For instance, what does a 5k fitted suit do over a 500 dollar suit bought off the rack?

</div></div>

I'll likely never know the answer to that question.

 

[Pat M]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

For instance, what does a 5k fitted suit do over a 500 dollar suit bought off the rack?

</div></div>

I'll likely never know the answer to that question. </div></div>

Ditto,
& no disrespect as people like what they like and are willing to spend the $

i spent the extra $ on a used Xterra as apposed to a used Pathfinder

 

[hochung]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utnapishtim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have an Omega Seamaster, which I've owned and enjoyd with pride for a few years now. It keeps perfect time, seems nearly indestructable, and looks great.</div></div>

Have you changed battery yet? When you do, make sure it's still waterproof after the battery swap.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utnapishtim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Recently, a relative-in-law was looking at it and said, somewhat condescendngly, "Oh. You got the quartz.". He went on to explain that it wasn't really anything more than a pretty digital watch.</div></div>

there's some truth there, but I think he was just being a dick. What kind of mechanical watch does he have?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utnapishtim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So, my question is this. Why would you want a mechanical watch more than a quartz? I understand that the sweepig second hand is pretty, and there is some nestalgia associated to the fine craftsmanship of a mechanical watch. . . But aren't they unreliable, highly delicate, and require regular maintenance? I chose a quartz for it's accuracy and reliabilty. Should I feel like I have any less of a watch? </div></div>

My self-winding watches have been very reliable and they aren't delicate at all. I golf and shoot with them. I go to the beach, the pool, not shy about water. But it's about 5 minutes faster every couple months. and for that accurate time keeping, I have my iPhone.

 

[Todds69]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

A high end watch is more of a piece of jewelry than a time piece.

 

[SledDog]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Todds69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A high end watch is more of a piece of jewelry than a time piece. </div></div>

And a work of art in many cases. A good watch tells time accurately and is reliable. A great watch makes other people wish they had it.

 

[badbot]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

just got my dads 1964 rolex.
can't tell it from a timex and it's not accurate.
but I am keeping and waring it.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

It's all about priorities.

They mean different things to different people.

 

[Navitimer]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

As my handle implies I'm a big fan of watches. I appreciate the workmanship, design and the mechanics that go into a nice watch. To me, it's similar to paying extra for certain brands or designs in the gun world. As always, just my $0.02.

 

[TNT]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Tell your relative-in-law that a mechanical movement is nothing but a wrist-mounted Rube Goldberg machine.

I personally like the look of a sweep hand and the actual design of the internals on a mechanical self-winder, but I'll not chastise a $5 timex for being more accurate.

Ask him what his use for a watch is.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

This is going to date me but my Rolex is as tough and as reliable as my Randall and my Hi-Power. Of course back then our GPS was a compass and a bead pace counter. And there were no solar G-Shocks either.

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

For instance, what does a 5k fitted suit do over a 500 dollar suit bought off the rack?

</div></div>

I'll likely never know the answer to that question. </div></div>

Ditto,
& no disrespect as people like what they like and are willing to spend the $

i spent the extra $ on a used Xterra as apposed to a used Pathfinder

</div></div>

Same here..and spent the rest on a real nice scope..best money I ever spent besides that time in Bangkok.

 

[CL1KKL4C]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I get shit from my "well off" brother in law all the time for not even owning a watch. However my cell phone has a clock, my car has a clock, and we've been known to have a few clocks at home and work. Never had a need for one, and I hate jewlery.

 

[cadbike]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I have an Omega Seamaster Automatic and a Tag quartz. I wear the Tag daily. It's a great watch. Who gives a shit what movement it has. Quartz is more accurate anyway.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I buy Seiko Five sport watches off fleabay from Hong Kong. 3atm water resistant 21 jewel automatics in stainless cases for less than $100 a pop. They loose time just as well as my buddies' Rolexes.

I just don't like batteries and am hard on watches.

Stock pic of what I've been running for over a year:

 

[caz345]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TNT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tell your relative-in-law that a mechanical movement is nothing but a wrist-mounted Rube Goldberg machine.

I personally like the look of a sweep hand and the actual design of the internals on a mechanical self-winder, but I'll not chastise a $5 timex for being more accurate.

Ask him what his use for a watch is. </div></div>

LOL Thats funny! I have a Breitling B1 with the super quartz , Its more accurate than the earths rotation its within about 5 seconds a year. Do I really need a watch this accurate...no but Im glad I have it, its reliable, accurate looks awesome and even has a light!

 

[1000yard]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I have automatics, manual wind and quartz. I have been wearing a TAG auto for the last year and a half pretty regularly. It's been through the ringer with no issues. I wore a Tudor prince chronograph(had the same movement as a Rolex Daytona)for about 10 years, it required service and maintenance, 4 times in that period, totalling about $2400. More than the Aquaracer I have been wearing cost. I had a Seamaster quartz I recently sold, it was a great watch, just didn't get worn, so I let it go. Quartz is reliable with less hassle, just make sure when you have the battery replaced, they know what they are doing, and can pressure test the seal, or you'll have problems(don't skimp there)

 

[NY700]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I think it was said earlier, truely high end watches are works of art. Does that mean they cant do the job no ot doesnt some can some not so good. Like all jewelery where it comes from and how its made is part of the whole mystique. A mitsubishi evo X can keep up with a farrari off the line and smoke it in the corners, and still be used day to day to get groceries and the kids from school, but its not a ferrari. My boss wore a $12k breitling for years, it was totally a pride thing. I bought a fake, a good fake about $300 self winding, similar design, it took him two days of stareing at this thing before he could honestly tell the difference. Ive seen some heavy barreled savage rifles out of the box run right alongside custom rifles costing 5x the price, and yet the guy woth the savage still wanted the custom job, I thought it would make him feel good thats the honest truth

 

[dumapus]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

What's accurate? 5 sec a year, 1 min a year? Stop the next five people you meet and ask them exactly what time it is. I bet you get 5 different answers. Who really knows the exact time anyway? If you are within 1 min, youre fine.

I wear an Omega Aqua Terra b/c I appreciate the craftsmanship.

 

[onetoe]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I have had a Rolex stainless steel date just for 15 years. Sent it in to Rolex one time for servicing in that period. Anybody who has an appreciation of anything mechanical has to be amazed at the inner workings of any self winding watch. The parts, components and frame all fit together with amazing tight tolerances and perfectly balanced components, so it is the closest thing to perpetual motion that you can purchase. A stainless steel watch is probably not an exotic piece of jewelry but since I am amazed by anything mechanical its the only type of watch I will ever wear. Normally a Rube Goldberg machine is something that does not function the way it was expressed by the manufacturer to function. So far, the watches cost me .0007 of one cent per minute to operate for 15 years including the initial purchase price and maintenance.

 

[tman300wm]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I hate to say it but I'm a bit of a watch snob, and the mechanical watches have a few things going for them that digital and quarts movements don't. One of them is resale value. I have an Omega Speedmaster Moonshot model that is worth quite a bit more than my father paid for it. I also own a Fortis Fleiger, a WWII Benrus Box Face, and an old Hamilton Curvex. All are mechanical, and all keep very good time. My day to day watch is a Citizen EcoDrive, but if there should be a catastrophic meltdown of society I'll be going back to mechanical watches, esp. if there is an EMP blast.

When I go to a business meeting I like to wear my Fortis or the Omega. It says “I have made it”, and “I can afford to be here”. People do judge books by their covers, and being bound in the right materials can sometimes influence the outcome of a situation, esp. when you don’t have the credentials of a millionaire like Sam Walton (who drove a pickup truck and dressed in clothes from his own stores). I don’t think it’s disingenuous or fake. It’s simply a matter of personal appearance and taste.

 

[Wolf22]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

a Breguet grande complication or the Vacheron Tour de l'ile are interesting examples of horology.

go big or go home applies, or so it appears.

as above; self esteem, "apparent" status/ego, design, or simply hand made/custom stuff turns the crank. it's shaggadelic.

In the end, a lot of time piece mongers want something that is unique/rare, rather than something that 4 million other people have. Some find it noble to hand it down within the family.

A guyz gotta have accessories and why follow the crowd.


Your Omega Seamaster (quartz) is a nice piece and nearly bomb proof. if you like it, who cares......

 

[XTR]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

There are so many examples. Why does anyone bother to shoot over 100 yds with iron sights? Why does anyone own a Harley? Why would I even consider <span style="text-decoration: underline">sailing</span> a boat? Why would you hunt with a muzzle loader, or god forbid a pointy stick and a bow? Why would I choose to write with fountain pens? Those are close to home.

Why would anyone pay more for a Camaro that's over 40yrs old than they would for a new one? (same goes for a 'stang or a GTO)

If you don't get it, nobody will be able to explain it to you. Someday you might, at some level, or not.

They are all personal choices; choices that in some cases people thing are better than others, that isn't to say that they are right or wrong, (well other than powerboats

) just different.

These are the cheap watches

These are real money

 

[Alderleet]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

With my current career, i need a watch to take the abuse my daily activities throw at it.

so no, spending more than a couple hundred doesnt make sense, especially if i manage to break it on the first outing smacking it against the door frame on a Humvee...

I can appreciate expensive watches, but if I were being talked down too, based on my time piece, i would have politely told them to piss up a rope...

 

[Engin]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

As stated, you buy the Quartz for the accuracy. You buy the mechanical movement for the snobbery factor unless you are concerned about TEOTWAWKI or SHTF scenarios, if you believe tat some form will not return within three years of one of these events occuring.

You takes your money......

If you are considering buying a new watch, may I suggest you guys check out a British company that is a rising star in the market?

www.christopherward.co.uk

check the website out for some very good, relatively inexpensive watches that are excellent quality and value.

Cheers

E

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<span style="color: #CC0000">Cell Phone:</span>
Time/Date...anywhere
Phone
Ballistics
weather
news
GPS
Email
Skype
MAP/Navigation
Markets
Library of Congress
Photos
Movies

<span style="color: #CC0000">Any Watch</span>
Time/Date



..

 

[WillAdams]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Cell Phone CONS:
BATTERY, Too many users, no tower EMP blast Sats down,

I really prefer the cell phone I need to have longer range, NO email, or games or other useless crap. get real, watch a movie ? On a cell phone ? Maps ? Sorry, I hate the screens on a GPS because they are too damn small.

But WTF do I know about watches ? my last really expensive watch was bought in '74-75 & I still have that Rolex Submariner. Since then I have also had several Seikos & a couple of Luminox. At least when I trash the Luminox I won't be wondering how many paychecks it will take to repair as it will with the Rolex.

Yep, I can see having a cell phone with all that stuff and me being in the southeastern part of Honduras. Oh yeah, lots of help. NOT

 

[handym3000]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

you can't put a cell phone underwater and still have it work.

water sucks on phones especially when duck hunting

 

[Cartman]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

A fat ugly chick will try harder. She'll never cheat on you. She'll never leave you. She'll cook and clean and work her arse off to treat you right. When guys see her on your arm some might not be impressed. But you'll have a satisfaction of knowing she gets the job done better than a hot chick and at a fraction of the price. And guys who wear quartz watches will know you made the right choice.

A hot chick can be high maintenance. It may cost a lot of money to win her, um, "heart". She may constantly be inundated with offers to cheat, to leave you, etc. She might expect dinner reservations instead of a set of pots and pans. If you don't do the cleaning you may need to hire a maid. You, not her, to may need to work your arse off to make her happy and to keep her. Guys who see her on your arm will be impressed. But some may think you're foolish for paying so much money to get her and keep her. Guys who wear expensive mechanical watches will think it's worth it.

 

[triplecelectric]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Watches mean different things to different people there are no right or wrongs. Many a corvette will outperform a ferrari or lambo. Some guys like function some guys like flash some guys like both. But when you talk about high end watches there is only one concern and that is the movement. There are truly only 2 very good movements out there Rolex and Patek Philippe. Watches can be fashionable and like fashion they go in and out. However good watches will often retain or increast in value. When the economy was good you couldn't get a deal on a Rolex now that people have fallen on hard times there are some deals out there. Buyer beware if your looking for a piece that is going to retain it's value you MUST consider the movement.

 

[hochung]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #CC0000">Cell Phone:</span>
Time/Date...anywhere
Phone
Ballistics
weather
news
GPS
Email
Skype
MAP/Navigation
Markets
Library of Congress
Photos
Movies
</div></div>

That's all? you must not have an iPhone.

 

[hochung]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Engin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are considering buying a new watch, may I suggest you guys check out a British company that is a rising star in the market?

www.christopherward.co.uk

check the website out for some very good, relatively inexpensive watches that are excellent quality and value.

Cheers

E </div></div>

I just took a quick look at their website.

Looks like they have a nice selection of watches, but I didn't feel any love there.

This is a funny one. It looks like a mix between the Omega Seamaster (wave texture on the dial) and the Rolex GMT Master (duh):

and the CW logo... They should put an "I" in there, and it would be perfect.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Some just like fancy watches. No shame in that.

I have "field" watches and "fancy" watches. One pair of shoes will "work" for everything, but combat boots look a little silly with a suit. In the same way my Pathfinder or Gshock looks a little silly when I am wearing a suit and tie.

 

[Grand]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

The most accurate watch I own does not work at all; but its exactly right twice a day. The rest are just playing catch-up.

 

[XTR]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

One other thing, snobbery or not, look at the resale value on high quality watches with Swiss movements compared to quartz watches. They hold their value, some (not many) even go up.

Personally, I'm still shopping for a Ball Cleveland Express for a dress watch.

 

[Big Bo]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Seiko Black Monster does it for me.

 

[vman]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Be a real douche bag and keep a pocket watch in your suit jacket.

"Mmmmmm how delightful, would you believe its only 30 minutes past 2? That leaves us plenty of time to fit in a game of croquet! Jolly good"

 

[Hink]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

Haven't worn a wristwatch in more than a decade... but a watch is not really different from glass on a rifle. For some folks, a BSA or Barska is suitable, for others who are more serious, it's got to be a Leupold, and for people who have the means, it's got to be a USO or Hensoldt.

While I can appreciate the poster a couple up who made the distinction between inexpensive and 'real money' at the $5k mark, I'm sure that there are many out there who wouldn't think of spending that amount of money on a watch, especially when a person can purchase a vehicle for that same amount. But on the other hand, other people won't think twice about purchasing season tickets for thousands of dollars each. My point? To each his own.

Back to the OP's point...mechanical movements truly embody the spirit of watchmaking, continuing the tradition to another generatioon. But they are complicated and delicate in comparison, and require servicing. Quartz movements are less cost-prohibitive and less complicated, and require no service other than replacement of the power source from time to time. Neither is objectively better than the other; again, to each his own.

 

[Only10x]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

live well, take care of those you love and don't die rich.
what else is money for?

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haven't worn a wristwatch in more than a decade... but a watch is not really different from glass on a rifle. For some folks, a BSA or Barska is suitable, for others who are more serious, it's got to be a Leupold, and for people who have the means, it's got to be a USO or Hensoldt.

While I can appreciate the poster a couple up who made the distinction between inexpensive and 'real money' at the $5k mark, I'm sure that there are many out there who wouldn't think of spending that amount of money on a watch, especially when a person can purchase a vehicle for that same amount. But on the other hand, other people won't think twice about purchasing season tickets for thousands of dollars each. My point? To each his own.

Back to the OP's point...mechanical movements truly embody the spirit of watchmaking, continuing the tradition to another generatioon. But they are complicated and delicate in comparison, and require servicing. Quartz movements are less cost-prohibitive and less complicated, and require no service other than replacement of the power source from time to time. Neither is objectively better than the other; again, to each his own.</div></div>

The difference is that the USO or the Hensoldt offer at least an order of magnitude superior performance over a BSA hunting scope. They will last longer, track better, provide superior clarity, and withstand far greater abuse. They also provide a greater degree of prestige, but that comes as an ancillary side effect of their fundamental quality.

In comparison, a $100 wristwatch is going to effectively provide exactly the same performance as a $10,000 mechanical watch. The extra money, to the best of my knowledge, isn't going to offer any additional tangible benefit to its wearer.

If someone suddenly invented a new form of sighting technology that provided the precision, durability, and effectiveness of a Schmidt & Bender, but cost $25 at Wal-Mart, I have no doubt that plenty of people would still be buying the S&B - but it would no longer be for the sake of performance downrange, but rather the performance upon the firing line.

 

[mgd45]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For instance, what does a 5k fitted suit do over a 500 dollar suit bought off the rack?*shrugs* </div></div>

I've got a rich brother who wears custom made suits that usually cost several thousands of dollars. He works 16 hour days traveling all over the world for his company & meets with the CEO's of very well known global businesses.

I asked him this very question, because I usually buy my suits on sale at JC Penny's for under $300. He explained that in his "world" looks do matter & you are judged on how your appearance, then he said, besides when your in a suit for 16 hours a day you want to be as comfortable as wearing your favorite jeans & t-shirt....

Then he let me try on one of his jackets.....I can't put into words how AWESOME it felt!! I didn't even want to put my jacket on after experiencing that!

 

[XTR]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

I'm 6"4" with a minimum of 10" of difference between my chest and waist (my waist is smaller) NOTHING on the rack even comes close. When you are wearing a tailor made suit, and you stand next to someone wearing a rack suit, it shows.

But this is about watches. As I wrote in another post, if you don't get it, you are probably not ever going to. Spend your money where ever and how ever you wish. The reality is that quartz watches are hundreds of times more accurate, but all you have to do to make a quartz is apply current to a quartz crystal and measure the vibrations. While it took a while for the technology to get there, today it's insanely cheap and easy to accomplish. Mechanical movements, and even more so those with multiple complications are engineering marvels, and some folks just appreciate them.

 

[Wolf22]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

XTR -

is your 10" diff. from living in O.R. TN??? (residual decay from the Manh. Proj)

Only kidding.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Watch Movements. . . snobbery?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolf22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XTR -

is your 10" diff. from living in O.R. TN??? (residual decay from the Manh. Proj)

Only kidding.

</div></div> Residual? Hell, there is enough active stuff around there that we don't pay any attention to the old and weak stuff.

As for the snobbery? That is everywhere and is pretty much human nature. I get it all the time because I am both cheap and have high standards at the same time. I prefer practical over fancy, so my watches are Citizen Eco-drives or my Casio Pathfinder that is on my wrist 95% of the time.

I think mechanical movement watches are cool but I'll never own one. I just can't bring myself to buy a watch that costs that much but I can't put it on the dresser for a week without it dying, and I get bored with watches after a while too. It's not that I can't afford one, I just don't want to.

Same reason I won't buy a $2k 1911 when my Glock does a pretty good job as it is. Other shooters may look down their nose at me when I get to the range, but they shut up when my groups look better. A fancy watch doesn't make you high class just like a fancy gun doesn't make you shoot better. It's what's inside that counts.