Rifle Scopes We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

[Swift]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VSOP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I care less if his agreement was not to sell below MAP, the way they used the Hide to entrap him is reason enough never to do business with them again. </div></div>

Yeah I'm not even sure that topic has been mentioned. That rat had the balls to ask if there was a Hide member discount? What a weasel. He can eat shit and die, too.

It would be a sad day if Hide members were required to establish tenure to be eligible for any sort of discounts through vendors, but when someone can just name drop and it exonerates these kinds of consequences to be handed down, what else are we supposed to do?

 

[300sniper]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VSOP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I care less if his agreement was not to sell below MAP, the way they used the Hide to entrap him is reason enough never to do business with them again. </div></div>

Yeah I'm not even sure that topic has been mentioned. That rat had the balls to ask if there was a Hide member discount? What a weasel. He can eat shit and die, too.

It would be a sad day if Hide members were required to establish tenure to be eligible for any sort of discounts through vendors, but when someone can just name drop and it exonerates these kinds of consequences to be handed down, what else are we supposed to do? </div></div>

having never dealt with the op nor the manufacture in question, was it common knowledge that hide members got a discount on the scopes?

 

[W54/XM-388]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the bottom line is don't make agreements you aren't willing to keep. no one is forcing any dealer to sell a certain manufacture's product. </div></div>

Would that be:
What you thought you agreed to when you signed up?
What their Lawyer claims you signed up to?
What a normal human would think the contract says?
What a lawyer can be paid to twist it to claim it says?
What the changes to your contract now say? (did you miss the little note in the mail saying you automatically agree to the new changes unless you stop doing business with them immediately)
What they decided to re-interpret the contract to mean and tough luck if you don't like it?

I may be wrong, but somehow I would guess it's not a simple one page contract in plain easy to understand english with no added on later, one sided modifications that we are talking about.

 

[300sniper]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the bottom line is don't make agreements you aren't willing to keep. no one is forcing any dealer to sell a certain manufacture's product. </div></div>

Would that be:
What you thought you agreed to when you signed up?
What their Lawyer claims you signed up to?
What a normal human would think the contract says?
What a lawyer can be paid to twist it to claim it says?
What the changes to your contract now say? (did you miss the little note in the mail saying you automatically agree to the new changes unless you stop doing business with them immediately)
What they decided to re-interpret the contract to mean and tough luck if you don't like it?

I may be wrong, but somehow I would guess it's not a simple one page contract in plain easy to understand english with no added on later, one sided modifications that we are talking about. </div></div>

is that how you get out of a mortgage or car payment, the contract was too many pages?

you better know damn well what you are signing before you put pen to paper.

 

[native]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">having never dealt with the op nor the manufacture in question, was it common knowledge that hide members got a discount on the scopes? </div></div>

You've never dealt with Scott or PH and you feel compelled to post 19 times so far

LOL

edit to 20, on a roll

 

[drlove]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I have been a guest on Snipers Hide reading the Forum post daily for the last two years. This post is the catalyst for my registration and first comment. My offering probably adds little insight to what has already been written but I do want Premier Reticles and Chris Thomas to hear my voice in this matter.

I believe a clearly defined problem is half solved and that 300 Sniper, Rob01 and jrob300 are working to that end in their sparing. I too want to with-hold judgment until I hear both sides of this story but it seems so clearly that Chris Thomas is trying to have his cake and eat it too in this matter.

Although shocking to many of the Snipers Hide authors of this post series, minimum advertised price is a common industry standard practice. Many of us are okay with its existence. One of the problems in Scott Berish's story is that minimum advertised price has been changed by Chris Thomas to "price the consumer should expect to pay." Most of us are not okay with making that tautology. Both in semantics and meaning, making this change is wrong in a business contract. Additionally, many members are unsettled with the knowledge that companies can engage in this type of price fixing. Regardless of the law and Supreme Court decisions (not that they don't matter) most Snipers Hide members don't care if the practice is within the law, it simply violates the essence of what a free market is and what the rights of ownership are to them. Perhaps all of the optics companies that matter to us do have MAP policies, it is that this is the first that most of us are hearing about one of them changing the meaning of MAP and enforcing a minimum selling price.

The reality of this for me as that none of us should have to have known anything about this matter. Chris Thomas should have picked up his phone and worked out an understanding with Scott Berish--after all, Scott seems to be a reasonable guy.

 

[High Binder]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

10 pages! Guys that's one post followed by 225+ posts of speculation. Must be a slow news day or we're all stuck at home for mothers day.

 

[300sniper]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: native</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">having never dealt with the op nor the manufacture in question, was it common knowledge that hide members got a discount on the scopes? </div></div>

You've never dealt with Scott or PH and you feel compelled to post 19 times so far

LOL

edit to 19, on a roll </div></div>

thanks for counting. i guess it can be twenty now.

what i am compelled to post about is people blindly trashing a company. once we know that the manufacture didn't have an agreement with the dealer stating the minimum price that the product could be sold for and we know that this was the first incident of this happening without them being warned, then we can trash them.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the bottom line is don't make agreements you aren't willing to keep. no one is forcing any dealer to sell a certain manufacture's product. </div></div>

Would that be:
What you thought you agreed to when you signed up?
What their Lawyer claims you signed up to?
What a normal human would think the contract says?
What a lawyer can be paid to twist it to claim it says?
What the changes to your contract now say? (did you miss the little note in the mail saying you automatically agree to the new changes unless you stop doing business with them immediately)
What they decided to re-interpret the contract to mean and tough luck if you don't like it?

I may be wrong, but somehow I would guess it's not a simple one page contract in plain easy to understand english with no added on later, one sided modifications that we are talking about. </div></div>

is that how you get out of a mortgage or car payment, the contract was too many pages?

you better know damn well what you are signing before you put pen to paper. </div></div>

I try my best as a non-lawyer to read very carefully anything I sign and I've acutally never found longer contracts to be in your favour unless you are the one with the most lawyers and money, (which I've never been). There is a reason they are so long & never written in plain language. Even if you are right, do you have the money for the lawyers to prove it?

Do you have any idea of all the exact terms of all your credit card or cell phone or bank account contract now? You may have read every single word when you signed up but have you kept up with all the automatic changes that apply automatically it seems (funny how you can't say that by cashing you check that month they agree to your new terms).

I read my contracts very well but I'm sure I don't fully know or understand all the extra little added evil things that have been added to each contract unless I sit down and spend a day going over each one.

Even if you do understand your contracts fully, in my experiance I've found the way it normally goes down is the party with way more money and lawyers than you says .."This is what we say the contract means now and if you don't like it, good luck" or "Tough luck this is what we say is the way now" Then your lawyer says well you can be out xxx by bending over and taking it, or you can spend xxxxxxxx to prove you are right (but you'll never do business with them again even if you are proven right).

 

[Sespe]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowr1der</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly my feelings. I was just talking about high end scopes with a buddy today, and I will make sure I tell him to cross Premier off of the list now, and why I feel he should.

To the other guys saying that many other companies have MAP pricing, I agree and while I don't like it, that's not the issue I have with what Premier did here. I have a problem with how they treated him for selling the scope under their MAP pricing, when he didn't advertise it under that price. There is a difference between MAP, and MSP. Apparently it's not to them though. That's the first strike for me. The second is how they sent out another dealer to entrap him. The 3rd is how they handled it with him after he sold it to another dealer cheaper than they'd have liked, which didn't have anything to do with MAP anyway. </div></div>

Been meaning to chime in since this thread started, but the above pretty much covers it.

I have no problems with, "I will sell you this widget for $x. You can't <span style="font-style: italic">advertise</span> it for sale for less than $y." No matter what, I still get my $x. You get whatever the market will bear as your profit. Sounds like America to me.

I have problems with, "I will sell you this widget for $x. You are not allowed <span style="font-style: italic">to sell it</span> for less than $y." Um, how is that not price fixing? How is that not something totally illegal under our laws? If you don't want your resellers to sell your product for less than $xxx, don't sell it to them for less than that.

And using / accepting a competing dealer's underhanded shill entrapment as a pretext to shut down one of your own? Really? <span style="font-style: italic">That</span> is what turns me against them.

 

[aubie515]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I have done business with Scott and he's always been upfront and honest with me. I will continue to purchase from him.

It looks like the damage has been done to PR and they will understand what this thread has cost them. It doesn't matter how good their product is if they screw over a reputable dealer. Scott is a class act...PR not so much.

 

[hydro556]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: native</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">having never dealt with the op nor the manufacture in question, was it common knowledge that hide members got a discount on the scopes? </div></div>

You've never dealt with Scott or PH and you feel compelled to post 19 times so far

LOL

edit to 19, on a roll </div></div>

thanks for counting. i guess it can be twenty now.

what i am compelled to post about is people blindly trashing a company. once we know that the manufacture didn't have an agreement with the dealer stating the minimum price that the product could be sold for and we know that this was the first incident of this happening without them being warned, then we can trash them. </div></div>

I would typically agree verbatim with your sentiment of waiting for both sides of the story. But this is a bit different IMO.

As I mentioned earlier, Scotts character has proven to be excellent, and I know of not a single person who has ever said that he has done something in the least little bit shady, or ever shown himself to be anything other than a stand up guy who has a different business model. One that compromises his yield on sales, but still provides a level of service matched only by Doug at CL in my experience. That is tall cotton.

This combined with the total lack of participation one way or the other from the ATI or Premier indicates to me, that Scott's story is straight up and ATI/Premier have boxed themselves in. A very unenviable position if this is indeed the truth.

Who knows, maybe Premier has decided they dont need the business and they are more interested in supporting ATI. I dont know shit about ATI, but I am going to educate myself in that regard.

They have determined that yield per sale is more important than allowing a guy who has done a ton for them, through good times and bad, to continue with his business model of minimal yield but maximum repeat business.

If Premier/ATI come on here and prove this wrong then I will eat crow.

This is a dirtbag move, no two ways about it, assuming it is as advertised.

 

[High Binder]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This combined with the total lack of participation one way or the other from the ATI or Premier indicates to me, that Scott's story is straight up and ATI/Premier have boxed themselves in. A very unenviable position if this is indeed the truth. </div></div>

'but lets keep in mind that it's the weekend so the people at ATI/Premier might not even be aware of this. We don't even know if Scott himself is following this. We'll see when tomorrow comes though.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Scott -

this is straight from the front page of May's SNIPERWORX issue 2011, funny how things work ( this was published five day before your original post)

had you on my mind, for some reason - and i will continue to support you in any capacity that I can sir

"Another thought, as I finish up this editorial— the Optics market continues to get inundated with yet more ‘tactical’ scopes… and it’s a valid question to ask, ‘which scope I right for me? ‘ . So before you buy I would suggest contacting a superb dealer and picking their brain about various optic manufacturers, scopes, difference, etc., One such dealer is Scott Berish, owner of www.libertyoptics.com "

 

[ASR-Briggs]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Hmmmmm. Long time lurker, first time poster (just as many others in this thread! Guess all we needed was a public outrage to push us over that "first post" line lol)

This whole situation just stinks; for LO as a retailer, PH as a manufacturer, and us as a consumer.

Firstly, LO completely and utterly got left in the lurch here in regards to unfulfilled orders. The manner in which it was handled was maximised to screw LO over. Some notice would have been nice, both to fix up existing orders and also to back another 'high end' line. The treatment he's received, including not returning his phone calls and the exploitation of the SnipersHide name/community in the entrapment, has been pretty childish.

Secondly, PH as a manufacturer. They're farked. This much negative PR, circulating in the community that undoubtedly provides a very good portion of their income, will almost certainly spell bankruptcy. Not the smartest move. I give them 6 months.

Thirdly, us as consumers. As cliche as it sounds, I am actually in the market for a 'cost is no limit' 5x25 scope, and had all but settled on a Premier as the best choice for features and quality of the glass (does Henny offer an FFP version of their 6-24?). Now, I would still love to have one, but now would feel disgusted in purchasing one, as my money is quite clearly going to a bunch of money grubbing dicks. So I've been robbed of an option.

As a side note, (don't quote me on this) I do believe that here in Australia this would fall into the category of price fixing and is extremely illegal. We take that shit pretty serious down here. US might be the land of the free, but apparently it's far from the land of the free market

And I fully intend to drop PH a phone call and ask them the hard question: "Why should I buy a Premier scope?" I do still live in hope that this situation can be resolved, but it's going to require some serious ass kissing.

 

[clo]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I don't know Scott, never purchased from Liberty Optics. But all this bashing had me interested so I wanted to check out his line of optics on his website.

1. There's Leupold, which we all love to bash here on the hide and have professed our deep hatred of.
2. There's Vortex, that makes a great product at a great price (i.e. PST line, Razors), if they are in stock.
3. There's IOR. (I've heard friends don't let friends buy IOR)
4. Trijicon, Bushnell, Zeis, and Sightron.(Which one of you long range high speed operators actually have one of these on your GAP)
5. Then there's Premier, which most of the dealers here can't seem to keep on the shelf, discount or not.

I'm sure Scott is a stand up guy, but this thread is awefully one sided. From the list of scopes there I argue that Scott stands to lose more from this than Premier. Well maybe not since some 200 guys that were just on the fence from buying one isn't anymore.

2cents.

 

[hydro556]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I dont pretend to know anything about PR's revenue, but I would be surprised if pissing off all of snipershide and similar forums will bankrupt them.

From the claimed contracts I have heard about, I am sure they will keep chugging along.

But, this could definitely snowball for them and hurt them long term.

Their best bet is to pop on here ASAP and do a mea culpa. And see if they can talk Scott into taking them back.

But I would hope he could pass, but that probably wouldnt be the best move for him either.

Either way, I hope Scott comes out the other side better off than when he entered. This is not a good guy to drop a big scandalous dirtbag move on. Too many like him, and we all pull for underdogs anyway. When they are good dudes like Scott is, it just doubly so.

 

[hydro556]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CL&RR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know Scott, never purchased from Liberty Optics. But all this bashing had me interested so I wanted to check out his line of optics on his website.

1. There's Leupold, which we all love to bash here on the hide and have professed our deep hatred of.
2. There's Vortex, that makes a great product at a great price (i.e. PST line, Razors), if they are in stock.
3. There's IOR. (I've heard friends don't let friends buy IOR)
4. Trijicon, Bushnell, Zeis, and Sightron.(Which one of you long range high speed operators actually have one of these on your GAP)
5. Then there's Premier, which most of the dealers here can't seem to keep on the shelf, discount or not.

I'm sure Scott is a stand up guy, but this thread is awefully one sided. From the list of scopes there I argue that Scott stands to lose more from this than Premier. Well maybe not since some 200 guys that were just on the fence from buying one isn't anymore.

2cents. </div></div>

Not to be dramatic, but I know there are folks who, when needing an optic, go to Scott and buy something he has. Just because they want to have the security he provides, mfg warranty notwithstanding.

But, I never thought Premier was the best optic line he had anyway.

 

[ASR-Briggs]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont pretend to know anything about PR's revenue, but I would be surprised if pissing off all of snipershide and similar forums will bankrupt them.
</div></div>

Never underestimate the power of word of mouth. Not only is this an international forum, with people from all nationalities and walks of life, but it's also a 'go to' place for information and opinions on products. I guarantee you that there will be many people either now, or in the future, that will be interested in a high end scope, including a Premier, stumble upon this thread, and have their opinion changed. These are not cheap units a 2-3K a pop. How many changed opinions will it take before it's considered a serious loss of revenue? Just 5 changed opinions is 10K. There's at least 25 in this thread alone, that's 50K as a minimum. Now I don't pretend to be PR's accountant, but who can just shrug that off? And all for the sake of maintaining their image as a high cost brand!

 

[Kevlars]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Exactly ... this news changed my mind...

 

[winxp_man]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Its that saying dont kill the cow that gives the milk kill the one that doesn't.

 

[mjh30]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Scott, sorry to hear about your troubles with that scope company, but we all know there are similar great products out there. I for one would like to thank you in public once again for your excellent customer service. Just wish some people (manufacturers) would realize that sometimes we buy brand x scope over brand y scope, because of the vendor we are dealing with.

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Page 10 and still going... This might get as long as the moti page in Maggies Drawer.....

 

[19818119]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Edited, note to self - do not comment until all information is on the table...

 

[Merc8541]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CL&RR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know Scott, never purchased from Liberty Optics. But all this bashing had me interested so I wanted to check out his line of optics on his website.

1. There's Leupold, which we all love to bash here on the hide and have professed our deep hatred of.
2. There's Vortex, that makes a great product at a great price (i.e. PST line, Razors), if they are in stock.
3. There's IOR. (I've heard friends don't let friends buy IOR)
4. Trijicon, Bushnell, Zeis, and Sightron.(Which one of you long range high speed operators actually have one of these on your GAP)
5. Then there's Premier, which most of the dealers here can't seem to keep on the shelf, discount or not.

I'm sure Scott is a stand up guy, but this thread is awefully one sided. From the list of scopes there I argue that Scott stands to lose more from this than Premier. Well maybe not since some 200 guys that were just on the fence from buying one isn't anymore.

2cents. </div></div>

The nice thing is that all the information is on here, and of course it will be looked at in favor of Hide members! One sided or not Scott put his neck on the line when Premier was fresh out of the gate, just looking for a common courtesy instead of a kick in the nuts.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

okay, I've read every post up to the point I started composing this. As for my bonafides, my wife and I have owned four businesses and been partners in three more. I include my wife because in some cases she ran the business but in all cases when you go to the bank for money it requires a personal guarantee so her financial butt was on the line too. I have also worked in management for small businesses with up to 900+ employees and a billion in annual sales. These endeavors included the sale of everything from collector Ferrari's to ice cream cones.

W554XM's questions are legitimate. I have signed agreements with clauses that, when I questioned them, the rep of the company said don't pay any attention to that our lawyers put that in and we don't enforce it (he said I said). Companys will also put in terms that are legally unenforceable (you'll never know unless you get an attorney and go to court). You may have been able to do business on a handshake only to find out that as your supplier grows and new intermediate management is hired that the world has become a different place. Even if you are on a standardized franchise agreement, some franchisees will be treated differently than others (again if you want to do anything about it go to court).

I could go on and on but it is pointless. The naievete' of those who want to know the letter of the agreement is amazing. So in the end what do you do? You follow your instincts and act in whatever manner you deem appropriate and you do so knowing that the landscape may be entirely different tomorrow, next week or next year. As for me, I will e-mail PH regarding the incident and regarding their representation by ATI, I will check with LO on my next purchase and see if Scott's great reviews are justified and I will continue to depend on SH for information and evaluations. The internet is a wonderful thing.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm withholding comment until this thread has been hot for 24 hours. The other side deserves a chance to say their piece.</div></div> And still waiting. It was Mother's Day weekend after all, so I'm giving an extension.

There is entirely too much speculation in this thread. I want the Paul Harvey version.

 

[Jason280]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is entirely too much speculation in this thread</div></div>

I agree, the pitchfork mentality certainly takes hold pretty quickly! Personally, I'll hold off judgement until I've heard from all parties involved. Now, don't think for a second I am defending ATI or PR, or even doubting Scott's posts. I've had a couple of dealings with Scott over the last year or so, and there is little doubt he's a standup guy. However, this mob mentality is a little ridiculous given what has been posted thus far.

I also find it quite comical the amount of posturing coming from those claiming "now I'll<span style="font-weight: bold">never</span> buy a PR". Face it, the majority of these people were never going to buy a Premier scope anyway, so I guess this is their chance to jump in and feel like they're part of the crowd.

 

[ASR-Briggs]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

That's pretty damn presumptuous to pretend to know what people were, and weren't going to buy. The fact is that a lot of people won't even consider it as an option anymore.

 

[19818119]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Edited, note to self - do not comment until all information is on the table...

 

[alt6grunt]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I understand rules and contracts. I also am aware of selective enforcement and that sometimes a single person is selected to serve as an example.

I am not confident that this forum will force any policy/practice change for the mfg. However, because of this thread, I think I have become more informed about the entire industry.

Once you sift through the bias from each side, then the BS, what is left may be useful. To share and learn something new is why I am here. For that reason, I have enjoyed the hyperactivity.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quarter Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have signed agreements with clauses that, when I questioned them, the rep of the company said don't pay any attention to that our lawyers put that in and we don't enforce it (he said I said). Companys will also put in terms that are legally unenforceable (you'll never know unless you get an attorney and go to court). You may have been able to do business on a handshake only to find out that as your supplier grows and new intermediate management is hired that the world has become a different place. Even if you are on a standardized franchise agreement, some franchisees will be treated differently than others (again if you want to do anything about it go to court). </div></div>

I think QH nailed it. These agreements are never enforced unless a few specific things occur.

1. You've failed to move the amount product you've promised
2. Someone else who's not moving product is blaming it on you

These types of agreement are crafted for one reason...to protect the franchisor or in this case a product brand from disputes between vendors. It gives them a big gun to pull out when things take a turn south and allows them to say....see-it's his fault. The reality is that a competitor that is not doing very well likely threw Liberty under the train. QH is correct in the fact that these agreements are often enforced with a wink and a smile and I've witnessed this first hand. In the end, the vendor is expendable to protect the brand. They didn't cut Liberty off for any other reason than Premier needs to protect themselves from a complaint from someone else.

I own a business and I try to get top dollar for my product at every turn. I'm successful at it more than 80% of the time. BUT I also know when I need to cut someone a deal to make the sale. This becomes particularly true in a bad economy and the product is a frivoluos purchase or luxury item such as a high end optic.

The sad truth here is that whoever complained is likely doing poorly for some other reason related to their own inadequacy. The spirit of these agreements is not to tie a vendors hands and prevent them from cutting a deal when they see fit. Hell, everyone does it...they just don't don't admit it out loud.

Liberty was the victim of a competitor and Premier chose to exercise an agreement clause to protect themselves. The problem lies in the fact that Hide members are largely military folks that by our very nature believe in protecting the little guy. In this case Liberty. Premier will be the bad guy here almost regardless of what the truth is for one reason...they treated a small business owner (and by default his family) as an expendable asset. Bad move either way.

 

[JRose]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I don't see what is fueling this argument...

As long as you don't <span style="font-weight: bold">ADVERTISE</span> below M<span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">A</span></span>P, you haven't violated MAP...

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see what is fueling this argument...

As long as you don't <span style="font-weight: bold">ADVERTISE</span> below M<span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">A</span></span>P, you haven't violated MAP... </div></div>

Actually it doesn't matter. Someone once submitted a complaint against me for something I wasn't actually doing. It didn't matter that it wasn't true. The franchisor used a clause in our agreement and wrote me a letter of admonishment. They did that for one reason...so if it were to end up in front of a judge they'd be able to say...see, we did something about this.

It was frivoluos and they knew it but in the end I was the expendable one. I threw the letter in the trash and continued to run my business as before. It always works out this way...the big guys can afford the attornys and they bank on the notion that the little guys can't. It's what's wrong with corporate America today.

 

[maladat]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

To all the "we need to see the dealer agreement to know what happened" people - go back and read the first post, and either accept what Scott is saying or go ahead and call him a liar outright. According to Scott, the VP of ATI agreed that no part of the dealer agreement was violated.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
First, we never violated MAP nor any other dealer agreement with ATI, and when I explained this to Ted Milner, he stated they were well aware of that, but “they aren’t obligated to provide Liberty Optics with any product, either”. Ted also agreed that what happened was a sting operation, but that didn't impede the suspension.</div></div>

To all the "ha ha, all the people saying they won't buy Premier are posers who shoot airsoft with Barska scopes" people - I have spent probably $10K on optics in the last two years, about half that with Scott. I am going to be building a 280 or 284 long range rifle soon and want a 5-25 or so scope for it. I was considering Premier, not any more. Would I have ended up with one if this hadn't happened? Maybe, maybe not, but now I certainly won't. Probably I will end up with an S&B 3-20 or 5-25 or maybe the new Nightforce people are talking about. If I'm really happy with the March 3-24x42 FFP that's on its way to me now, I might just order another one of those. Oh wait, that scope is $200 less than the Premier. I guess I can't afford a Premier after all.

I understand MAP agreements abound but MAP was not violated and ATI treated Scott like shit. Let's not forget that the whole thing apparently started when the head of ATI's marketing firm made a public scene at the Premier booth in front of Premier staff and another dealer. That is unprofessional bullshit and you had better believe that if the owner of a marketing firm that worked for me embarrassed me in public that way I would have a new marketing firm by the end of the day.

 

[redbullitt]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Back stabbing to save buck... pretty low there...

Nightforce it is. At least this helps those of us in the market by narrowing down choices; nobody wants to look through douchebag glass everytime they pull the trigger.

 

[c1steve]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Premiers for $2,500 by Christmas!

If Nightforce keeps the price on their new scope to $3,000-$3,200, no one will be buying the Premiers anyways. Premier will have to lower their price far below NF to sell any. They may wish they still sold through Liberty Optics.

 

[cg_wilson2003]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

The thing I find irritating is companies like Premier not to long ago depended on the consumer market to purchase there scopes so they can make money in hopes of landing a military contract. As soon as they accomplish that task they immediately screw the consumer by raising prices threw the roof. In there mind they no longer need them as customers as the the .gov pays 3X more than is needed for everything.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c1steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Premiers for $2,500 by Christmas!

If Nightforce keeps the price on their new scope to $3,000-$3,200, no one will be buying the Premiers anyways. Premier will have to lower their price far below NF to sell any. They may wish they still sold through Liberty Optics. </div></div>

LOL...that's a bold statement...having never seen or used the new NF.

Ever run a Premier side by side with one yet? If so, all of us would love to see a review. Or you just spewing BS out of your ass just because?


This thread is almost comical. 10 pages of "Premier and ATI is the devil" and how guys are going to spend their hard earned money on Barska's and other brands now.

Gotta wonder why even a lowly consumer like me knew about their strict agreement of MAP a long time ago, and how distributors were instructed to follow them closely.

All I have to say is, vote with your dollars. It's the American way.

Maybe the price will go down a lil since we have 10 pages of guys that "were" going to buy one, but now will get a Barska instead. Who knows, I might have my 4th Premier sooner than I thought. LOL.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To all the "we need to see the dealer agreement to know what happened" people - go back and read the first post, and either accept what Scott is saying or go ahead and call him a liar outright. According to Scott, the VP of ATI agreed that no part of the dealer agreement was violated.</div></div> I believe that and fully agree. I just want to know under who's knowledge and approval these actions were taken. The contract between PH and ATI may have tied the hands of PH, and they were drug into this situation against their own will or intentions. Being Cc'd in the suspension email to the vendor means nothing to me when it comes to pointing fingers.

Slinging the mud at PH without knowing their side of the story is what I have a problem with. While their silence is deafening, we're talking about a multi-million dollar company that has to do things through a legal team first. That takes time and isn't as simple as Plange hopping on here with his technical advice. I for one will not speak or think badly about PH until I hear their side first.

ATI's side of the story is apparent with the quoted email in the OP where they plainly stated that MAP on their products should be MSP. That's gray area price fixing in this grunt's opinion, and just plain wrong.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Better yet, those that have one and hate them now. Please contact me for a shipping address.

REALLY show these guys your resolve, and just give your Premier away.

 

[c1steve]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c1steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Premiers for $2,500 by Christmas!

If Nightforce keeps the price on their new scope to $3,000-$3,200, no one will be buying the Premiers anyways. Premier will have to lower their price far below NF to sell any. They may wish they still sold through Liberty Optics. </div></div>

LOL...that's a bold statement...having never seen or used the new NF.

Ever run a Premier side by side with one yet? If so, all of us would love to see a review. Or you just spewing BS out of your ass just because?


This thread is almost comical. 10 pages of "Premier and ATI is the devil" and how guys are going to spend their hard earned money on Barska's and other brands now.

Gotta wonder why even a lowly consumer like me knew about their strict agreement of MAP a long time ago, and how distributors were instructed to follow them closely.

All I have to say is, vote with your dollars. It's the American way.

Maybe the price will go down a lil since we have 10 pages of guys that "were" going to buy one, but now will get a Barska instead. Who knows, I might have my 4th Premier sooner than I thought. LOL.

</div></div>

I have not seen the new NF, but if it half of what people say it is, it will be far superior to the Premier. I have a 5-25 Premier, and think it is amazing. However the comments from Lowlight and others say the new NF will be a "game changer".

 

[KYS]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Didn't this happen recently on an Oakley group buy? Seems there is a trend. </div></div>

Why are you trying to be the antagonist in this discussion? Explain what this "trend" is that you see.....

Im interested in what you have to say on the matter other then your admitting you came into this topic with the mindset to stir the pot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm simply taking the antagonist view to this whole thread. </div></div>

 

[wslowik]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Pfff...glad I decided to go with a S&B.

 

[KYS]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c1steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Premiers for $2,500 by Christmas!

If Nightforce keeps the price on their new scope to $3,000-$3,200, no one will be buying the Premiers anyways. Premier will have to lower their price far below NF to sell any. They may wish they still sold through Liberty Optics. </div></div>

LOL...that's a bold statement...having never seen or used the new NF.

Ever run a Premier side by side with one yet? If so, all of us would love to see a review. Or you just spewing BS out of your ass just because?


This thread is almost comical. 10 pages of "Premier and ATI is the devil" and how guys are going to spend their hard earned money on Barska's and other brands now.

Gotta wonder why even a lowly consumer like me knew about their strict agreement of MAP a long time ago, and how distributors were instructed to follow them closely.

All I have to say is, vote with your dollars. It's the American way.

Maybe the price will go down a lil since we have 10 pages of guys that "were" going to buy one, but now will get a Barska instead. Who knows, I might have my 4th Premier sooner than I thought. LOL.

</div></div>

Just because PR is ran by some jerk doesn't mean they are a bad optic.... They have had some bad apples like most scope lines but if the market for them went cold today due to them mistreating Scott, I think they would rethink their ways and how they treat people. When a shooting community of 50,000 plus start talking and that's multiplying by the day you would be shocked at how fast they can start to see loses.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Funny...because all you have heard is one side of things, and take it for fact and truth.

I think I will wait around for page 20 and get the whole story before getting a rope and pitch fork out.

Sheep.

 

[maladat]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To all the "we need to see the dealer agreement to know what happened" people - go back and read the first post, and either accept what Scott is saying or go ahead and call him a liar outright. According to Scott, the VP of ATI agreed that no part of the dealer agreement was violated.</div></div> I believe that and fully agree. I just want to know under who's knowledge and approval these actions were taken. The contract between PH and ATI may have tied the hands of PH, and they were drug into this situation against their own will or intentions. Being Cc'd in the suspension email to the vendor means nothing to me when it comes to pointing fingers.

Slinging the mud at PH without knowing their side of the story is what I have a problem with. While their silence is deafening, we're talking about a multi-million dollar company that has to do things through a legal team first. That takes time and isn't as simple as Plange hopping on here with his technical advice. I for one will not speak or think badly about PH until I hear their side first.

ATI's side of the story is apparent with the quoted email in the OP where they plainly stated that MAP on their products should be MSP. That's gray area price fixing in this grunt's opinion, and just plain wrong.</div></div>

Maybe I should clarify a bit and say that I agree it is possible Premier is not really involved in this debacle and that mostly I am disgusted with ATI and their marketing firm GB Stumpp and my personal decision not to consider Premier stems from the fact that it appears ATI is the sole distributor of Premier optics and as such is it impossible to buy one without profiting ATI.

That said, I think Premier SHOULD involve themselves in this and I think it is ridiculous that Premier has not at least SAID something about this situation and preferably DONE something about it. If I ran Premier I would be FURIOUS with GB Stumpp. Marketing firms are supposed to make you look good to everybody, not cause a scene and make you look bad in front of one of your dealers.

 

[KaneK]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

For all of those who have asked about the terms, this is what is in question.


Terms:

1-11 Deleted, not pertinent to this discussion.

12 Armament Technology Incorporated reserves the right to refuse sales or to terminate sales to any customer who, in
our opinion, contravenes the spirit of MAP policy or does not not engage in the spirit of good business practice.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Prediction...

This won't hurt Premier in the long run other than to "out" some folks that have wayyyyy too much time on their hands and may be in the wrong line of work.

Firearms enthusiasts number in the millions and only a small percent get wrapped up in forum drama. The demographic that buys high-end optics largely don't need them...they want them. Those that always wanted a Premier (except maybe a few here) will buy one for no sane reason other than because they can.

High-end scopes aren't magic. They won't change your skill set any more than a high-dollar set of golf clubs will land you a spot on the PGA tour.

If I couldn't afford my USO's I'd be placing rounds on target with a $300 Millet and loving every minute of it.

Life will go on for everyone.

 

[bowhuntr09]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

a google search of Premier + GB Stumpp is starting to look interesting....