Wear out an action?

[Barney88PDC]

So I was just pondering and the thought crossed my mind. Could you wear out an action? Now I know that there are many variables but lets approach this from the point of view of either a Trued 700 or say a Surgeon 591R that remains maintained and properly lubed. After say xxxxx cycles will you have to junk it or buy and oversized bolt?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Wear out an action?

theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off

 

[fx77]

Re: Wear out an action?

FM

Oh my, now I am scared!

 

[swampbuck]

Re: Wear out an action?

As long as your springs are good and you don't structurally damage it with (hot loads, drop tests, firing underwater) it should last you a lifetime.

Same should be true with your dick except the firing underwater part.

 

[jrgfox]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off</div></div>

LOL...classic...

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fx77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FM

Oh my, now I am scared! </div></div>

Don't be. I have not accomplished it yet so I am not entirely sure it's possible.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Wear out an action?

Oh, and I have never seen someone legitimately wear out an action.

Even on high volume schoolhouse guns, triggers and many barrels go in the scrap bin but the actions keep going. That is why many of us look hard for old 700's in the pawn shops.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Wear out an action?

I know of guns both r700, custom, aw that have 70k plus rounds through them. You would have to be ok the range everyday day all day for a lifetime to wear one out.

 

[echo3]

Re: Wear out an action?

If very heavy handed running the bolt, as I am, I could in theory see the bolt stop and the bolt handle getting battered.
Never done so myself. Seen Remmy bolt handles ripped off but thats not the same thing here.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Wear out an action?

The bolt stop is replaceable in about 5 minutes.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bolt stop is replaceable in about 5 minutes.</div></div>

so is the bolt....

like I said, it's theoretically possible, but for ALL practical reasons, it isn't happening.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Wear out an action?

There is an engineering design principal called "design for infinite life".

Steel, its alloys, and Titanium have a characteristic - the LACK of an "endurance limit". This means that properly designed, and loaded while in use, the part/assembly will last forever. Note that ONLY steel, its alloys, and Titanium lack an endurance limit. All other metals HAVE one, meaning that regardless of how heavy duty and robust the design is, it WILL fail.

That all said, I would hope that actions are designed for infinite life, but honestly, I doubt it. I doubt this because most actions were designed and developed long before the infinite life principles were well understood. Additionally, when I (by eye) analyze most actions, they look light duty to me. Lastly, 100k cycles is LOW in the scheme of design for infinite life. Couple that with the fact that FEW guns see that kind of use, and my gut tells me actions will wear out and fatigue eventually, but none of us will probably ever do it.

 

[elk addict]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off </div></div>

just sprayed coffee on the keyboard!

 

[RobertB]

Re: Wear out an action?

What about a switch bbl action?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobertB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about a switch bbl action?</div></div>

what about it?

depending on the switch mechanism... again "theoretically" it could loosen up, if by some chance you actually change it enough to do so, it could probably be repaired, therefore the action NEVER wears out...

my wife's grandpa has lever rifles and original Colt SAAs from the 1800s, that have been SHOT... they still shot, and shoot well...

some have had parts replaced, but the actions are fine

 

[RobertB]

Re: Wear out an action?

So swapping bbls out from action very often poses no threat to the action if never torqed over what it should be? I am thinking about buying another bbl but don't want to stress my action any more than it should be.

 

[rideHPD]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is an engineering design principal called "design for infinite life".

Steel, its alloys, and Titanium have a characteristic - the LACK of an "endurance limit". This means that properly designed, and loaded while in use, the part/assembly will last forever. Note that ONLY steel, its alloys, and Titanium lack an endurance limit. All other metals HAVE one, meaning that regardless of how heavy duty and robust the design is, it WILL fail.

That all said, I would hope that actions are designed for infinite life, but honestly, I doubt it. I doubt this because most actions were designed and developed long before the infinite life principles were well understood. Additionally, when I (by eye) analyze most actions, they look light duty to me. Lastly, 100k cycles is LOW in the scheme of design for infinite life. Couple that with the fact that FEW guns see that kind of use, and my gut tells me actions will wear out and fatigue eventually, but none of us will probably ever do it. </div></div>
I love it when someone else knows what fatigue limit is.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney88PDC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you wear out an action? </div></div>

Under normal conditions, not in your life time.

 

[RyanScott]

Re: Wear out an action?

Setting back the lug abutments is probably the only common failure mode.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Wear out an action?

I have been trying hard to wear my actions out but, alas, my wallet gave up first, actions are still fine.

 

[Barney88PDC]

Re: Wear out an action?

Thanks guys. I just didn't know if say in 5 or 10 barrels if I was going to also need something like an oversized bolt or something else I may not be aware of.

 

[dang472]

Re: Wear out an action?

The only contradiction to the above comments I've heard is in regard to the Remington 700 action and the .338 Lapua. I've been told by two different gun builders that action life is on par with barrel life with the Lapua. I can't remember the specifics, but I think it had something to do with the receiver actually becoming oblong.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dang472</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only contradiction to the above comments I've heard is in regard to the Remington 700 action and the .338 Lapua. I've been told by two different gun builders that action life is on par with barrel life with the Lapua. I can't remember the specifics, but I think it had something to do with the receiver actually becoming oblong. </div></div>

What smiths made that claim? I ask because:
1. It seems rather dubious that Remington would sell a rifle whose action was fatiguing/bending after so few shots - if it is bending, it is entirely inadequate and liable to blow up. Seems like a huge lawsuit waiting to happen if its true.

2. GAP was (still is?) willing to build a 338LM on a 700, or rework an MLR. For similar reasons to point #1, I wouldn't expect GAP to do it if it wasn't ok.

 

[dang472]

Re: Wear out an action?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1506195

Dave Tooley shared a little of his insight.

 

[ChrisF]

Re: Wear out an action?


Simple answer to this Q , buy an AI AW , if you ever wear the locking insert OUT , you can just order another , problem solved .


Later Chris

 

[Mendocino]

Re: Wear out an action?

I have heard that Jacob at Rifles Only has >90,000 rounds through his AW and has only had to replace the bolt stop. Barrels are consumables so they don't count; i always have some on order...

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Wear out an action?

dang472 / turbo54

I know of another smith that will not build the RUM / Lapua cartridges on the Remington 700. As Dave Tooley has said, presure is presure and the RUM/Lapua will set the bolt lug abutments back accordingly with time.

Now, if I build a 338 RUM / Lapua it's either on my signature receiver or the Surgeon XL, period.

 

[IronMaidenFan]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off </div></div>

I just spit out a mouthful of beer all over my monitor and keyboard. Too damn funny!

 

[TheNewRoman]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off</div></div>

 

[dang472]

Re: Wear out an action?

There must be something to it because every reputable custom action (Stiller, Surgeon, etc) built specifically for the 338 is longer and larger in diameter than the standard Rem 700 long action. The Stiller I have on order requires a 1.350in shank barrel as well. It seems the guys building these for a living are concerned about the size, tenon, and fatigue of the 700 LA.

 

[RyanScott]

Re: Wear out an action?

The .590 case head has shit tons of bolt thrust and the Lap can run at 70k in a hot handload. I'm shocked that Remington will put that in a standard action.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dang472</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1506195

Dave Tooley shared a little of his insight. </div></div>

While he says he doesn't think it's a good idea and won't build a 338 700, he does qualify that statement by pointing out his liability, and needing a factor of safety to protect himself from the retards out there. Point taken.

However, in the same thread, another fellow points out the headspace on his 338 700 hasn't budged in over 1800 rounds...

So who knows? You got some smiths that say it's ok, and others that say no. Personally, I wouldn't do it when you can get a purpose-built 338 rifle for not that much more.

Honestly, the 700 NOT being goid to go for a 338 jives with my suspicion that most (old) actions AREN'T designed for infinite life, and will eventually fail.

What can we take away from this? It's gonna take a long time to wear out a rifle action, unless you chamber it for a huge super magnum - in which case you may be able to wear it out several barrels down the road.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dang472</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There must be something to it because every reputable custom action (Stiller, Surgeon, etc) built specifically for the 338 is longer and larger in diameter than the standard Rem 700 long action. The Stiller I have on order requires a 1.350in shank barrel as well. It seems the guys building these for a living are concerned about the size, tenon, and fatigue of the 700 LA. </div></div>

I don't think you can draw that conclusion. Starting from aclean sheet, of COURSE they're gonna make it bigger and thicker! That doesn't mean it MUST be that big...

...Not trying to make the point a 700 is G2G forever with 338... Just saying there isn't any clear irrefutable evidence out there (that I'm aware if, or has been presented here) illustrating it ISN'T ok.

 

[dang472]

Re: Wear out an action?

I think it's okay as well. There are probably thousands of 338 Lapua 700 Police rifles circulating right now. I think if the custom action guys thought the Remington dimensions were up to the task though, they would stay with the footprint for stock and chassis options. They obviously feel the Rem 700 SA dimensions are strong enough.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Wear out an action?

The fatigue limit of steel is indeed a great thing. It allows us to put several hundred thousand miles on a car with minimal maintenance. My experience with aluminum mountain bike frames has not always been so positive

Rifles are built without a lot of design margin, so I suspect they are stressed far beyond the fatigue limit. That being said, most of us couldn't afford to shoot them to failure - and I'm guessing that "failure" is rather benign.

Shooting a couple thousand rounds without a change in Headspace doesn't prove much, other than that the rifle wasn't on the hairy limits of failure.

 

[SReichert]

Re: Wear out an action?

I think you would have to go out of your way to wear an action out. As LoneWolfUSMC mentioned the Marines 40's just keep running. Some of the 1,110+ M40’s (A1/3/5’s) they have are built on receivers that are 40+ years old. The Marines are not easy on their gear and these rifles still function flawlessly. Sure the parts attached to the receiver might have been upgraded over the years but the actions themselves just keep on trucking.

 

[cav.scout]

Re: Wear out an action?

Not likely.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off</div></div>

you obviously havent seen my skinned up meat missile

 

[customgun1]

Re: Wear out an action?

^^^^^classic

 

[Wade]

Re: Wear out an action?

Most never get worn in.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off</div></div>

you obviously havent seen my skinned up meat missile </div></div>

Now if you'll excuse me while I flush out my minds eye with bleach and gasoline.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney88PDC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys. I just didn't know if say in 5 or 10 barrels if I was going to also need something like an oversized bolt or something else I may not be aware of. </div></div>

When you wear out 10 barrels on that new rifle(chambered in a known barrel burner voids this offer) please contact me. If you feel the bolt needs replacing I will buy you a new PTG in any configuration you like....assuming they are still making bolts and I am still alive.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most never get worn in. </div></div>
You talkin about actions or meat missles?

 

[lizzardking308]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HunterOfGunmen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you would have to go out of your way to wear an action out. As LoneWolfUSMC mentioned the Marines 40's just keep running. Some of the 1,110+ M40’s (A1/3/5’s) they have are built on receivers that are 40+ years old. The Marines are not easy on their gear and these rifles still function flawlessly. Sure the parts attached to the receiver might have been upgraded over the years but the actions themselves just keep on trucking. </div></div>

This is very true, but I have personally seen receivers from old 40's that were considered "worn out" and were swapped out for new ones. The bolt was VERY sloppy in the action and they slamfired due to the slop. This could be due to the bolt, but I would wager the raceway was rather worn as well. While this may not be an everyday thing, it does happen. Any 2112 on here can attest to that. I have also seen some A3/A5's built off very old receivers so they do last a long while.

 

[Dick D]

Re: Wear out an action?

Actions can wear out. We have one of the old M40Al's here in our shop that after it was returned to Quantico with severe battle damage from Lebannon they determined it was worn out. The top inside surface of the rear receiver ring was worn away and the top of the bolt body is actually dished down and worn in the center. The trigger pressure was raising the back of the bolt up enough that only the bottom of the lugs was making contact and the bolt would slamfire when the action was cycled.
The barrel was damaged on the muzzle, and several lens in the scope were broken and the reticle was missing. Only the stock was servicable, so the USMC decommissioned the rifle, de-watted the action, and gave the entire rifle with scope to Gale McMillan as a excellance in service award. It hangs proudly in our display room.

 

[bohem]

Re: Wear out an action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theoretically... but it'd be kinda like wearing your dick out jacking off</div></div>

you obviously havent seen my skinned up meat missile </div></div>

Nothin' quite like a sore peter... ya just can't beat it.

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: Wear out an action?

contact rifle's only about the legend of their AW range rifle,

something like 70,000+ rounds....... only worn out parts are the stacks of barrels used as door stops now......

Lindy can give better accounts of its fame....