Wet vs. Dry Tumbling

[Cascade Hemi]

22cal might be an issue but not 6mm or bigger I’ve been running groats since I read the thread on CGs.....

I tried Groats for a few months and it gets stuck in anything with a case diameter under 27 cal. I shouldn't have to shine a light into every case to verify the media is out but I do with Groats. It pretty well sucks when you've loaded 400 rounds and start getting compressed loads because you randomly have five grains of Groats in your 6.5CM brass. Nevermind that it clogs up small primer pockets despite internet users claiming otherwise.

I've gone backwards on all tumbling; wet tumbling for pistol and bulk milspec 556/308 only and fine ground corncob for match rifle brass. Berry's sells corncob by the five gallon bucket pretty cheap, just throw it away after a while if the dust is a problem.

 

[47guy]

I tried Groats for a few months and it gets stuck in anything with a case diameter under 27 cal. I shouldn't have to shine a light into every case to verify the media is out but I do with Groats. It pretty well sucks when you've loaded 400 rounds and start getting compressed loads because you randomly have five grains of Groats in your 6.5CM brass. Nevermind that it clogs up small primer pockets despite internet users claiming otherwise.

I’ve never had this issue with 6mm or larger...as far as clogging up primer pockets goes are you saying you get it in ever piece of brass? Because if you are I call bullshit!

A piece here or there sure but once you’ve tumbled a few batches its only a piece or two once in awhile.

And if you loaded 400 rounds before you realized you had 5g of Groats in a case or cases and were compressing I don’t even know what to say other than pay attention when your loading!

 

[Lunchbox27]

Wow.. some of you guys are over thinking this. You clean brass so it has no issues in the die. That’s it. Anything after that is cosmetic. Ever had a guy at a match comment on how shiny your brass is? Cuz no one gives a bakers fuck.

I’ve heard guys at the range talk about tumbling live ammo to make it look better...

Dry tumble. Get a lid that is sealed, walnut media, no dust.

 

[Hairball]

After decades of dry tumbling, I switched over to wet a few years ago. I prefer the results of wet tumbling over dry. Gave the dry tumbler to my neighbor who wants to start reloading.

 

[b2lee]

After decades of dry tumbling, I switched over to wet a few years ago. I prefer the results of wet tumbling over dry. Gave the dry tumbler to my neighbor who wants to start reloading.

Same story here....except I gave the dry tumbler to a work buddy.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I’ve never had this issue with 6mm or larger...as far as clogging up primer pockets goes are you saying you get it in ever piece of brass? Because if you are I call bullshit!

A piece here or there sure but once you’ve tumbled a few batches its only a piece or two once in awhile.

And if you loaded 400 rounds before you realized you had 5g of Groats in a case or cases and were compressing I don’t even know what to say other than pay attention when your loading!

About 50% of the SRP brass I've tumbled had groats stuck in the pockets. The media was well used at that point.

Say what you want, the very first compressed load was the red flag. I had to weigh 400 cartridges and pulled down at least 10. I'm fairly certain there was still some media in cases that wasn't so obvious on the scale or by shaking. I looked inside another 300 empty cases and found single grains as well and clumps of the Groats. The Groats went straight in the trash and I went back to the corncob I had in the back of my bench.

I think it may have been one of your posts that caused me to try them in the first place. If you like it then who am I to try to talk you out of it but my experience says they flat suck and anyone considering Groats as tumbling media should know up front about the trade offs.

Oh yeah, Groats still has dust even with dryer sheets.

 

[47guy]

About 50% of the SRP brass I've tumbled had groats stuck in the pockets. The media was well used at that point.

Say what you want, the very first compressed load was the red flag. I had to weigh 400 cartridges and pulled down at least 10. I'm fairly certain there was still some media in cases that wasn't so obvious on the scale or by shaking. I looked inside another 300 empty cases and found single grains as well and clumps of the Groats. The Groats went straight in the trash and I went back to the corncob I had in the back of my bench.

I think it may have been one of your posts that caused me to try them in the first place. If you like it then who am I to try to talk you out of it but my experience says they flat suck and anyone considering Groats as tumbling media should know up front about the trade offs.

Oh yeah, Groats still has dust even with dryer sheets.

I find all this hard to believe....I’ve never had them stuck inside a case like you say...I’m not saying it can’t or didn’t happen but I’ve NEVER had it happen! After running them through a media separator.

as far as dust...what groats were you using? Did you add any car wax/polish?

I get zero dust with these and have tumbled at least 10,000 9mm in my pistol tumbler and at least that many in my rifle brass tumbler.

https://www.amazon.com/Russkoe-Pole-Buckwheat-Groats-Pack/dp/B01J26HQUY/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=buckwheat+groats&qid=1604101424&sprefix=buckwheat&sr=8-8

 

[47guy]

Wow.. some of you guys are over thinking this. You clean brass so it has no issues in the die. That’s it. Anything after that is cosmetic. Ever had a guy at a match comment on how shiny your brass is? Cuz no one gives a bakers fuck.

I’ve heard guys at the range talk about tumbling live ammo to make it look better...

Dry tumble. Get a lid that is sealed, walnut media, no dust.

I get complements on my brass all the time.

 

[Gtummy]

I wet tumble everything. I am trying it without stainless steel media, I am having some problem with wrapping my head around trying to make "perfect duplicates" of a loaded round and leaving varying amounts of carbon in the neck and in the case itself. i use brushes to clean the neck. But at same time how can the stainless steel not remove some brass. I doubt I will be reweighing brass after every firing.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I find all this hard to believe....I’ve never had them stuck inside a case like you say...I’m not saying it can’t or didn’t happen but I’ve NEVER had it happen! After running them through a media separator.

as far as dust...what groats were you using? Did you add any car wax/polish?

I get zero dust with these and have tumbled at least 10,000 9mm in my pistol tumbler and at least that many in my rifle brass tumbler.

https://www.amazon.com/Russkoe-Pole-Buckwheat-Groats-Pack/dp/B01J26HQUY/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=buckwheat+groats&qid=1604101424&sprefix=buckwheat&sr=8-8

 

[gigamortis]

I'm a big fan of the Bore Tech case cleaning solution in my Hornady Magnum ultrasonic cleaner. I can put 40 .308" bolt face cases neck down in a 400ml beaker and they all stay standing up. I can even run 2 beakers at once. I mix the Bore Tech ratio just for the amount of water that covers the brass in the beaker. I set the beaker in the ultrasonic tub and fill the remaining volume around the beaker with warm water up to the level of water inside the beaker. 20 minutes and my brass is clean inside and out. Before the beaker and Bore Tech solution, it was taking 2 hours with Hornady Oneshot brass cleaning solution.

 

[rundm]

I use the ultrasonic cleaning also but it does not seem to work so well for me. I use hornady cleaner though. Do you think that the boretech would make that much of a diff? I also wet tumble now without the ss pins. Seems to work ok and there is no dust and no pins to make sure are not stuck in the primer pocket.

 

[texastonk]

The simple fact is most use both.
Some go wet more and other dry.
I only use my wet tumbler for real dirty brass. My dry is for not so dirty.
I also dry tumble my rounds after loading for a short bit to get all lube and oil off.

For just starting out I’d go dry then as funds and experience comes get you a wet tumbler. Or just buy both to begin with.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I use the ultrasonic cleaning also but it does not seem to work so well for me. I use hornady cleaner though. Do you think that the boretech would make that much of a diff?

Boretech makes a major difference. I played with just about every concoction imaginable and was never impressed. First time I used Boretech Case Clean, I could easily tell it was better.

 

[gigamortis]

For those that vibratory tumble loaded rounds, I would be leery about the breaking down of the powder kernel size of extruded powders. The kernel size and shape is a known trait that affects burn rate.

I have a close friend that had driven all around for a few years with a few boxes of 5.56 that he kept in his 4x4 truck. When he decided to finally shoot it up in his AR because it was "old", the rounds were noticeably louder than freshly purchased ammo of the same brand shot just prior the hour before. The POI on the older rounds was significantly different from the newer ammo as well. We chronoed the last few rounds and they were 200+ fps faster with terrible SD and ES. We concluded the vibration from riding in the truck for a few years broke the kernel size down to a point of significantly speeding up the powder burn rate. The primers on the fired old brass were extremely flat with heavy cratering around the firing pin.

 

[47guy]

those are the right groats....odd your having all these issues i know several guys that tumble with those same groats and do not have any problems other than a kernel stuck in a small primer pocket or two but then walnut and corn cob both get stuck in flash holes...the way i process my brass id see any stuck in a PP or inside of a case but like i say ive never had them stuck inside a case after running the cases through the media separator.

if you have any left shoot me a PM.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

those are the right groats....odd your having all these issues i know several guys that tumble with those same groats and do not have any problems other than a kernel stuck in a small primer pocket or two but then walnut and corn cob both get stuck in flash holes...the way i process my brass id see any stuck in a PP or inside of a case but like i say ive never had them stuck inside a case after running the cases through the media separator.

if you have any left shoot me a PM.

Reloading is my hobby and when I see people having success with new processes I like to try them. I'm pretty sure it was your post that caused me to try them. I knew Groats might get stuck in small pockets and thought it was worth the trade off. I gave it an honest try too. Clogged flash holes was the reason I went away from walnut and tried wet tumbling. I'm pretty sure I've tried it all at this point including expensive rice and stainless steel chips (wet).

I bought another tumbler from Berry's a while back and it cam with some fine corn media that works well. It doesn't get stuck in LRP flash holes. They sell it by the bucket and is what I've been using lately. Unless my brass goes in the mud I only tumble after sizing so the media stay pretty clean.

 

[Leadrain22]

I love shinny brass, so I've switch to wet after decades of dry.
Most complain that it takes too long due and too much work having to dry out the brass. In my experience and the method I use it seems to be quicker for me.
I only run the tumbler about 30 mins if that long. After it's been running for 15 min, I turn on my electric food dehydrator and set it at high (158 degrees).
I spend most of my time in emptying out the stainless media from each case before dropping them into some clean cold water to rinse them out. Then drain them out before dumping them onto a dry cotton bath towel to get most of the water off them, before placing them in dehydrator for 15 to 20 min.
When they come out they go straight into the anealer. After that I'm ready to load them up.

There are benefits not related to performance for keeping your brass clean. You will notice it on your loading bench. All your equipment stays cleaner, from your bench top to your dies and hands.
I've done both, and they both do what they are suppose to do. It's a personal choice, pick one that fits your needs, your budget, or you like and run with it.

 

[rustyinbend]

I love shinny brass, so I've switch to wet after decades of dry.
Most complain that it takes too long due and too much work having to dry out the brass. In my experience and the method I use it seems to be quicker for me.
I only run the tumbler about 30 mins if that long. After it's been running for 15 min, I turn on my electric food dehydrator and set it at high (158 degrees).
I spend most of my time in emptying out the stainless media from each case before dropping them into some clean cold water to rinse them out. Then drain them out before dumping them onto a dry cotton bath towel to get most of the water off them, before placing them in dehydrator for 15 to 20 min.
When they come out they go straight into the anealer. After that I'm ready to load them up.

There are benefits not related to performance for keeping your brass clean. You will notice it on your loading bench. All your equipment stays cleaner, from your bench top to your dies and hands.
I've done both, and they both do what they are suppose to do. It's a personal choice, pick one that fits your needs, your budget, or you like and run with it.

My only argument here is with the SS Media ... I've learned it it totally unnecessary and provides minor results that cannot be justified either by the aggravation, or the possibility of getting a pin stuck where you don't want it. I wet-tumble in hot water, using Frankford Arsenal cleaning packets for about an hour, and then dry for a couple of hours in the FA Case Dryer. Easy-Peezy ... and the result is super-clean brass that's ready to anneal.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

I love shinny brass, so I've switch to wet after decades of dry.
Most complain that it takes too long due and too much work having to dry out the brass. In my experience and the method I use it seems to be quicker for me.
I only run the tumbler about 30 mins if that long. After it's been running for 15 min, I turn on my electric food dehydrator and set it at high (158 degrees).
I spend most of my time in emptying out the stainless media from each case before dropping them into some clean cold water to rinse them out. Then drain them out before dumping them onto a dry cotton bath towel to get most of the water off them, before placing them in dehydrator for 15 to 20 min.
When they come out they go straight into the anealer. After that I'm ready to load them up.

There are benefits not related to performance for keeping your brass clean. You will notice it on your loading bench. All your equipment stays cleaner, from your bench top to your dies and hands.
I've done both, and they both do what they are suppose to do. It's a personal choice, pick one that fits your needs, your budget, or you like and run with it.

My man, you are doing more work than you have to. Get one of these and after tumbling, drain the majority of the dirty water out by gently tipping the tumbler into the sink. Fill the bottom of the separator about half full of water and set the open strainer inside. Dump the brass and whatever dirty water is left out of the tumbler and into the strainer. Put the top on and give it a good 10-20 spins. Take the strainer to the sink and give the brass a quick rinse to get rid of the soap bubbles. Now just spin the strainer in the air a few times to knock out excess water. At this point you can dehydrate, or I dump the brass on a towel fold it up and shake it around. This step just gets rid of water spots if you have hard water. If I'm not in a hurry I just air dry them, if I need em quick I throw them in the convection oven. Written out this sounds like a lot of steps, but in practice it takes about 3-5 minutes. I guess I should do a video sometime. I used to separate the media by hand, that crap is for the birds. My goal is to streamline my process and spend as little time as possible in the gun room, so I can spend it on the range!

 

[Leadrain22]

My man, you are doing more work than you have to. Get one of these and after tumbling, drain the majority of the dirty water out by gently tipping the tumbler into the sink. Fill the bottom of the separator about half full of water and set the open strainer inside. Dump the brass and whatever dirty water is left out of the tumbler and into the strainer. Put the top on and give it a good 10-20 spins. Take the strainer to the sink and give the brass a quick rinse to get rid of the soap bubbles. Now just spin the strainer in the air a few times to knock out excess water. At this point you can dehydrate, or I dump the brass on a towel fold it up and shake it around. This step just gets rid of water spots if you have hard water. If I'm not in a hurry I just air dry them, if I need em quick I throw them in the convection oven. Written out this sounds like a lot of steps, but in practice it takes about 3-5 minutes. I guess I should do a video sometime. I used to separate the media by hand, that crap is for the birds. My goal is to streamline my process and spend as little time as possible in the gun room, so I can spend it on the range!

I've got one of those seperators. The one I have is made by dillon.

Its extremely difficult to get the media out of small necked cases. 25 cal or smaller hold media very well and in some cases the media will lodge in the neck.
Using the separator, you still have to physically check each case to ensure it's empty anyways. But you have the add work of collecting the media and returning them back into the tumbler, then clean and dry out the separator.

Not counting anealing, decapping, case/neck resizing. I normally have dry clean super shinny like new brass in an hour or so.

I'm going to have to try the separator with water. I have tried it dry, and it didn't go well at all.

If its messy, I'll just end up doing what I've done the past few years. But I will try it!! Before I say it works better or not.

PS: For those of you deciding to wet tumble. Avoid dropping any stainless media in the sink. Also have a magnet with an extention handy when you do drop one and it ends up in the disposal.

 

[Smokin7s]

It takes me 55 minutes to wash and dry 150 rds, if you’re wet tumbling for too long that’s where you run into “problems” I do ten ten minutes, or 15 if it was a muddy match for something, then I anneal size and do 10 more to get the lube off, I do not have neck problems whatsoever. I put them on a cookie sheet for 45 min at 170 degrees in the oven to dry. Lots of old men in strange sheds say wet tumbling is hard on brass. If you wet tumble for an hour yeah it’ll probably be hard on brass.

 

[Choid]

25lbs 9mm brass, 25 lbs water, 150 ml brass juice in a Big Shot tumbler.

 

[Leadrain22]

It takes me 55 minutes to wash and dry 150 rds, if you’re wet tumbling for too long that’s where you run into “problems” I do ten ten minutes, or 15 if it was a muddy match for something, then I anneal size and do 10 more to get the lube off, I do not have neck problems whatsoever. I put them on a cookie sheet for 45 min at 170 degrees in the oven to dry. Lots of old men in strange sheds say wet tumbling is hard on brass. If you wet tumble for an hour yeah it’ll probably be hard on brass.

Yes I've heard folks say that it hardens brass. I can't see how that could be possible even tumbled for hours at a time.

 

[Herb Stoner]

Wet tumble 30 or 40 minutes - no pins. Best move I made was skipping the SS pins.

A few turns in the media separator drops most of the water and if I’m in a hurry they dry in about 20 minutes in the oven at about 250F.

 

[Matt_3479]

I agree. My best move was dropping ss pins as well. Warm water, dawn dish soap, a few sprinkles of lemi shine, 1-1.5hrs run time. Drain, toss in a dish rag, 150 degrees in my air fryer for 30 min-1 hour on a big batch. Total time between 2hours and 2.5 hours and ready to load.

 

[Smokin7s]

I agree. My best move was dropping ss pins as well. Warm water, dawn dish soap, a few sprinkles of lemi shine, 1-1.5hrs run time. Drain, toss in a dish rag, 150 degrees in my air fryer for 30 min-1 hour on a big batch. Total time between 2hours and 2.5 hours and ready to load.

I just don’t think I would want to run an expander through a dirty neck

 

[straightshooter1]

I just don’t think I would want to run an expander through a dirty neck

If it's only burnt residue from the powder, it really doesn't hurt an expander. . .

. . . especially if the expander is a carbide expander mandrel.

 

[straightshooter1]

The only thing I don't like about wet tumbling is the peening of the case mouths, though that is not really an issue either when the brass is trimmed sometime afterwards.

 

[Baron23]

SH, where the Baron23 dares to be different.

I dry tumble and have zero issues with it. Benches are on one side of the garage and I just turn it on and ignore it for a while. I have a rotary separator that works pretty well and brass comes out clean and shiny. I do use a bit of Flitz polish with the walnut media.

Cheers

 

[Matt_3479]

I just don’t think I would want to run an expander through a dirty neck

Nothing dirty with the necks. I dry tumbled for years and never found the inside of the cases to be super clean. Dropping the ss pins the cases come out really clean, and the insides are clean enough but not shiny. Just looks tarnished is the best way to put it.

I run expanders through them with 0 issues

 

[Smokin7s]

Nothing dirty with the necks. I dry tumbled for years and never found the inside of the cases to be super clean. Dropping the ss pins the cases come out really clean, and the insides are clean enough but not shiny. Just looks tarnished is the best way to put it.

I run expanders through them with 0 issuesView attachment 7832039View attachment 7832040

That’s exactly what mine look like or cleaner maybe

Side note I do not dry tumble, I meant the difference with or without pins.

 

[Matt_3479]

That’s exactly what mine look like or cleaner maybe

Side note I do not dry tumble, I meant the difference with or without pins.

Oh okay. I agree the pins do seem to clean slightly better, but to me it wasn’t worth the extra hassle. Separating and having pins everywhere. Inspecting each case. I was pretty cautious with the pins and yet still after fully drying them and ready to load id fine pins in the bottom of my mtm ammo box sometimes.

Once I ditched them, it was 10x easier and 2x faster and definitely plenty clean. I did run them for 3 hours and they cleaned just as well but the way I do it now sped up the process yet again by cutting the time and it’s still plenty clean. There’s a big argument for leaving carbon inside the necks, which is another reason I cut the time and removed the pins. I want bright shiny brass, slight residue inside the necks. And another plus, majority of the time I don’t noticed peened necks

 

[lead ƒarmer]

I hear the peened mouth comment a lot when the SS topic comes up. My question is this: don't you chamfer/deburr before loading anyway?

 

[Smokin7s]

Oh okay. I agree the pins do seem to clean slightly better, but to me it wasn’t worth the extra hassle. Separating and having pins everywhere. Inspecting each case. I was pretty cautious with the pins and yet still after fully drying them and ready to load id fine pins in the bottom of my mtm ammo box sometimes.

Once I ditched them, it was 10x easier and 2x faster and definitely plenty clean. I did run them for 3 hours and they cleaned just as well but the way I do it now sped up the process yet again by cutting the time and it’s still plenty clean. There’s a big argument for leaving carbon inside the necks, which is another reason I cut the time and removed the pins. I want bright shiny brass, slight residue inside the necks. And another plus, majority of the time I don’t noticed peened necks

I’m not getting all the carbon out of my necks either I don’t think they’re not sparkly clean and they shoot good and it’s fast so I’ll probably stick to it and let primal rights dude have rice cough and an angry expression about it all on his own.

 

[Triple D]

I hear the peened mouth comment a lot when the SS topic comes up. My question is this: don't you chamfer/deburr before loading anyway?

That doesn’t always remove the peened necks. It can stretch down the neck several mm’s.

 

[Baron23]

I don’t get all the carbon out of necks from dry tumbling to the point of seeing nothing but brass, but they are absolutely clean enough to load.

There are a number of statements in various threads that super clean necks aren’t your friend, increased req seating force, and may impact consistency. Take it for what it’s worth but I lube my necks w graphite powder (Imperial neck lube) which is…carbon.

Cheers

 

[Choid]

There are probably some good arguments for dry tumbling if using a single stage press, because of the ability to have a bit slicker inside neck. If you are using a progressive, or even more an automated progressive, you really should not dry tumble as the extra residue can really gum up the gears.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

After trying boretech case cleaner, its a game changer.

30-40 minutes, wet tumble, zero media brings the brass back to like new. You will still have a little carbon in the case and some scoring in the primer pockets but its fast, rinses off easy and is non toxic. I clean after anealing and then again after sizing.

Anneal, De-prime, Wet Tumble, Lube, Size, Mandrel, Wet Tumble, Trim/Chamfer, Prime, Drop powder, Seat bullet.

 

[Smokin7s]

That doesn’t always remove the peened necks. It can stretch down the neck several mm’s.

Eye roll

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Eye roll

Ignorance is Ignorance.

I almost destroyed 500 once fired 6.5cm Lapua cases by using SS pins. They peened the case mouths to the point I couldn't size them, nor fit them on the henderson to trim/chamfer. Had to get the biggest bushing die I could find like .299 and then progressively run down every .02 until I got to .291. Then had to run them across Henderson after hand chamfering them all just so it could slip over the Pilot. Ended up having trim them down to 1.904-5 just to get them usable. Took days of work and I was lucky to be able to salvage the brass.

 

[Choid]

I would definitely have thrown them out in that instance. Saved me days of work.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Bro. $600 worth of once fired Lapua. I was doing anything possible to salvage it. Its on its like 4th firing now and still going strong.

 

[Smokin7s]

Ignorance is Ignorance.

I almost destroyed 500 once fired 6.5cm Lapua cases by using SS pins. They peened the case mouths to the point I couldn't size them, nor fit them on the henderson to trim/chamfer. Had to get the biggest bushing die I could find like .299 and then progressively run down every .02 until I got to .291. Then had to run them across Henderson after hand chamfering them all just so it could slip over the Pilot. Ended up having trim them down to 1.904-5 just to get them usable. Took days of work and I was lucky to be able to salvage the brass.

How long were you tumbling them

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

How long were you tumbling them

The timer broker so instead of an hour it was like 4 or 5.

 

[Smokin7s]

The timer broker so instead of an hour it was like 4 or 5.

Well no shit you about ruined them, 15 minutes not an hour not 30 minutes and dang sure not 4 hours. No wonder people have so much trouble with this stuff.

 

[Longshot231]

Try using the stainless steel chips instead of pins. I haven't had any problems. That includes any peening of the case mouths.

https://tbbullets.com/southern-shine-media-1/

After removing the brass and chips from the tumbler, I use this case/media separator.

https://www.dillonprecision.com/cm-500-case-media-separator_8_8_23663.html

Before you use the chips, be sure to wash them in hot soapy water to remove cutting oils. These are cuttings from machine work on stainless steel. I washed them a few times to get the oil off.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

There is zero reason to use any media, especially stainless. It takes material away from your brass. Its an abrasive.

There is no dicking around making sure you got all the media out before you dry and move onto the next step.

Dawn + Lemishine if you are cheap or something like Boretech Case Cleaner if you really want them clean without having to deal with soap suds and extra rinsing.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Well no shit you about ruined them, 15 minutes not an hour not 30 minutes and dang sure not 4 hours. No wonder people have so much trouble with this stuff.

15 minutes will not do shit. With SS pins, Dawn and Lemishine it was more like 1-1.5 hours to have them come out clean.

Or 30-40 minutes with Boretech Case cleaner and no media they come out even cleaner.

 

[Choid]

Have you compared the boretech to brass juice?