What distance are Ko2M guns zeroed at?

[harry_x1]

Hi All,

I am tinkering with an idea to build something to participate in KO2M. I have a specific question regarding the scope set up of KO2M participants.

Does anyone know, as to what is the most favored distance at which top competitors in KO2M zero their guns at? Is it 100 yards or some other distance? What are the advantages/disadvantages of same?

Best
harjeet

 

[Bull Arms]

How long till someone says………..2 miles

 

[badassgunworks]

Zero for most guys are at 100 yards

 

[badassgunworks]

Most guys zero at 100 and use a prism of some sort. If needed. Depending on what they are shooting and distance

 

[Taylorbok]

100 Yards or Meters what ever you are working in. If you aren't using a scope you already have I'd consider a March Genesis. By the time you buy a top tier scope, mount and prism you are getting pretty darn close and you don't have to fiddle with adding a prism on.

 

[b2lee]

100yds. Also, nobody seriously into ELR cares one bit about money getting in the way.

 

[badassgunworks]

100yds. Also, nobody seriously into ELR cares one bit about money getting in the way.

The biggest issue with money and the ELR. It's not the price of the build or feeding it with components. Its the travel expenses to compete. Unless you are fortunate enough to live close to a place that regularly holds matches you're kind of screwed. ELR will become cost-effective when the sport is large enough that there are matches evenly spread across the US like f class

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Hi All,

I am tinkering with an idea to build something to participate in KO2M. I have a specific question regarding the scope set up of KO2M participants.

Does anyone know, as to what is the most favored distance at which top competitors in KO2M zero their guns at? Is it 100 yards or some other distance? What are the advantages/disadvantages of same?

Best
harjeet

Many people have angled rails that preclude a 100 yard zero entirely but close up can be done on the reticle if needed. The higher power guns can do the first to the last target on internal adjustment alone given enough slope on the rail so those guys guys are zeroing at 1000 yards or beyond. For guys that are going to need a Charlie or a prism regardless, there isn't much of a reason not to get a 100 yard zero.

-Alex

 

[Taylorbok]

@Sandow the Heretic
I've never run it that way but I'd have to imagine that the way those guys run it is in their calculator as 100 yard zero with an offset of X that is roughly 1000 yard zero, or even farther.

 

[308pirate]

How long till someone says………..2 miles

2 miles

 

[308pirate]

ELR will become cost-effective when the sport is large enough that there are matches evenly spread across the US like f class

That will never, ever happen.

F class maxes out at 1000 yards and 1000 yard ranges with target pits or regulation electronic targets are few and far between. I know because I used to compete in NRA Long Range, of which F class is a subdiscipline. And as a whole, long range rifle target shooting, of any sort, is a tiny niche within the already small niche of all the shooting sports.

Finding places capable of and willing to host matches that exceed 1 mile? LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[badassgunworks]

That will never, ever happen.

F class maxes out at 1000 yards and 1000 yard ranges with target pits or regulation electronic targets are few and far between. I know because I used to compete in NRA Long Range, of which F class is a subdiscipline. And as a whole, long range rifle target shooting, of any sort, is a tiny niche within the already small niche of all the shooting sports.

Finding places capable of and willing to host matches that exceed 1 mile? LOLOLOLOLOL

ER is currently one of the fastest growing Shooting Sports in the industry. You are correct range locations in finding them is difficult. But we are seeing each year new ranges being added and as long as that continues to happen and as long as the industry supports it it will grow

 

[308pirate]

ER is currently one of the fastest growing Shooting Sports in the industry.

I hear that bullshit all the time. First from PRS then from the 22 people. And now you guys. I'm not even going to debate this.

ELR us a niche within a niche within another niche and so it will remain.

 

[308pirate]

ER is currently one of the fastest growing Shooting Sports in the industry.

10 people to 20 people in a year is an annualized 100% growth rate.

But it's still 20 people so no one gives a shit.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

I hear that bullshit all the time. First from PRS then from the 22 people. And now you guys. I'm not even going to debate this.

ELR us a niche within a niche within another niche and so it will remain.

I agree that it will remain a niche. There are real barriers to entry in terms of cost but beyond that, the requirements for different skill sets is probably actually harder. You need good shooting fundamentals, good reloading skills, good understanding of exterior ballistics and at some point, good wind calling skills. The first two aren't that big of an ask from other disciplines. The next two are a much bigger ask and the fact that you need all four to do well makes ELR just about the most demanding shooting there is. Add on the cost of the equipment and yeah, you are down to a tiny fraction of the population. I don't see any of that changing.

-Alex

 

[cas6969]

How long till someone says………..2 miles

No, you zero at 3 miles, then hitting stuff at 2 miles is a piece of cake.

 

[HellWolf]

Hi All,

I am tinkering with an idea to build something to participate in KO2M. I have a specific question regarding the scope set up of KO2M participants.

Does anyone know, as to what is the most favored distance at which top competitors in KO2M zero their guns at? Is it 100 yards or some other distance? What are the advantages/disadvantages of same?

Best
harjeet

I'm not running a Charlie or a prism anymore, it's extra shit to look through that's not 100% reliable and amplifies the mirage even more at extreme ranges, and it adds to time during transitions if you need it for a further target during a string of fire. Starting in June this season I went to a 94moa offset which is 35" high on my rifle at 100yards. It's pretty much a perfect zero at 1550 yards. It worked good enough for 2 firsts at Spearpoint, 3rd at the Castle, Spearpoint season championship, and the crown at King of 2 Miles.

 

[Northman623]

For reasons stated above. I went with a 80MOA offset this allows me to hold -8.25 Mils at low power to engage a 100 yard targets. You get used to it. The idea is to make the system as simple as possible.

 

[HellWolf]

For reasons stated above. I went with a 80MOA offset this allows me to hold -8.25 Mils at low power to engage a 100 yard targets. You get used to it. The idea is to make the system as simple as possible.

I run a perfectly leveled 4' high backer board with a single aiming point on the bottom and vertical line going straight up . I can't see my groups when I shoot so it's always a mystery to walk up and measure them, it makes you concentrate more on point of aim over point of impact.

 

[iceng]

10 people to 20 people in a year is an annualized 100% growth rate.

But it's still 20 people so no one gives a shit.

Dont hold back on us, put on your fightin' shoes.

However, i do agree with this statement. You could say that 5,000 people join f-class, or ipsc annually, and 1,000 drop their membership / rego / whatever. They both have 100,000 members.

They experienced an increase of 4,000 active members each, annually. Ranges who hire out their complexes for events say "hmm,. This club had a 4% growth, but this elr thing had 100% !! Its hot cakes goodness.".

Numbers can be messed with. Just look at US elections.

 

[lash]

Except that ranges rarely look at stats or growth potential in a sport. It tends to be more basic, like, “how many people will pay how much to use my range for a day/two.”

 

[secondofangle2]

only slightly on topic, but Having a place to shoot as far as I want within an hour of my house is one of the only things that keeps me in Utah. If I moved back East, I'd lose so much. I'd basically never stretch beyond 1000 yards and even then I'd have to travel forever and deal with dipshits.

 

[harry_x1]

I run a perfectly leveled 4' high backer board with a single aiming point on the bottom and vertical line going straight up . I can't see my groups when I shoot so it's always a mystery to walk up and measure them, it makes you concentrate more on point of aim over point of impact.

Thanks a ton for sharing your knowledge and experience on this...one question: I assume you set this offset at your regular place of shooting. But when you travel to different states for matches, do you experience any change in offset just because of diff environmental conditions? I assume there is not much change but still asking to check what else is important to develop and keep that offset match ready...thanks

 

[HellWolf]

Thanks a ton for sharing your knowledge and experience on this...one question: I assume to set this offset at your regular place of shooting. But when you travel to different states for matches, do you experience any change in offset just because of diff environmental conditions? I assume there is not much change but still asking to check what else is important to develop and keep that offset match ready...thanks

From my home range to Raton I had about 1/2" of offset change, I was 1/2" higher there than I was in Kansas the day before.

 

[lash]

From my home range to Raton I had about 1/2" of offset change, I was 1/2" higher there than I was in Kansas the day before.

At 100 yards?

 

[Geno C.]

At 100 yards?

Most likely. Raton has damn thin air compared to Kansas

 

[lash]

I figured as much, but asked for clarity.

 

[Taylorbok]

I’m confused about 94 moa offset and only 35” at 100 yards?

 

[RobertB]

I run a base with 90 MOA in it and a 20 MOA Badger Uni-Mount. I zero it at 100 yards and it comes out to like 30" or so high. I just dial my left/right in to my plumbline, and then record how high my POI is above my POA. I think it comes out around 1300 yards or so. I can get to 2 miles with no other pcs of gear to add and have to manage or worry about. Pretty simple and I'm happy with it.

Best of luck!

 

[Taylorbok]

Ok I’m following Now. That’s still massive elevation inside of your scope. If you are running 110moa of cant and only 30” high that means you can take roughly 80moa off it by dialing down so that’s 160 inside the scope.

 

[RobertB]

Ok I’m following Now. That’s still massive elevation inside of your scope. If you are running 110moa of cant and only 30” high that means you can take roughly 80moa off it by dialing down so that’s 160 inside the scope.

Exactly! I still have all but 1 mil of my scopes travel. I take out my zero stop and go 1 mil above the bottom. (Just because the extremes can give you some issues) and slip my turret to zero. So I have 30 mils or so to work with and I'm already at 1300 or so yards. With a beast of a round it lets you go pretty far!

 

[HellWolf]

I’m confused about 94 moa offset and only 35” at 100 yards?

With my Nightforce I have 35mil total travel, I set my zero stop .5 from the bottom and never dial past 34 mils up to keep it .5 from the top. With my offset I'm zeroed 35" high at 100 yards with this rifle giving me the ability to dial to 3500+ yards at almost any match that I shoot.

 

[Taylorbok]

Exactly! I still have all but 1 mil of my scopes travel. I take out my zero stop and go 1 mil above the bottom. (Just because the extremes can give you some issues) and slip my turret to zero. So I have 30 mils or so to work with and I'm already at 1300 or so yards. With a beast of a round it lets you go pretty far!

What scope you running?

 

[RobertB]

What scope you running?

I'm running both the XRS2 and the XRS3. Newer rifle has the XRS3 on it.

 

[Taylorbok]

You guys running big offsets are you using a high angle pic rail or something like an ERATAC?
You guy's got my wheels turning here. I agree there is some draw backs to the Prism or Charlie.

Being in Canada I am limited to a 10k joules muzzle energy (I need to follow this to shoot King up here) so I need more elevation than you guys. I've got a Charlie now that will let me dial out to 2 miles.

To be able to stretch to 2 miles with no adder I'd have to run an 18 Mil offset, which would use the top of my reticle (max hold under) at about 1350yards, true zero (center reticle) would be about 2055 yards. This would allow me to dial to 3330 Yards. Then at 2 miles I need to hold another 4 mils.
The problem is this leaves me no room to hold under for targets in side of 1350. If I go down to a 9 mil offset I max out at 3390 Yards. but gives me the ability to hold under all the way in to 100.

I thought I could run an ERATAC or Ivey mount and then I'd only have to adjust it for matches where there are targets inside 1200 and out passed 3400. I haven't shot many matches but going to start, from what I have seen most matches that go out past 3000yards start at 1500 ish.
If I didn't have to adjust mid match I feel that avoids repeatability problems, ERATAC wouldn't be on the fly adjustable but I feel would lock down more solid.

Thoughts?

p.s. I've been thinking about a March Genesis but I need to play with one first and or get a 50% cert or something lol.

 

[Geno C.]

Fixed offset will be the most repeatable. A 35cal Cheytac with the 350gr bullet from badlands about be real close to your energy limit

 

[Taylorbok]

Fixed offset will be the most repeatable. A 35cal Cheytac with the 350gr bullet from badlands about be real close to your energy limit

Cheytac is actually banned up here . I’m having a 375 chambered that will keep me just under the 10k limit, I was more asking about Opinions on the offset that kind leaves me needing a little more on either side.

 

[badassgunworks]

Cheytac is actually banned up here . I’m having a 375 chambered that will keep me just under the 10k limit, I was more asking about Opinions on the offset that kind leaves me needing a little more on either side.

358 enabelr or 408 enabelr would be your best option for canada

 

[Taylorbok]

358 enabelr or 408 enabelr would be your best option for canada

Planning to run .375 in the 375 ish grain bullets at 2950 ish so I’ll be right on the edge.

 

[RobertB]

What are the limitations in Canada?

 

[Taylorbok]

What are the limitations in Canada?

Stay under 10k Joules and Cheytac is banned.

 

[RobertB]

Stay under 10k Joules and Cheytac is banned.

Thanks!

That’s interesting. I had heard of something like that a while back but forgotten about it.

 

[Taylorbok]

You guys running big offsets are you using a high angle pic rail or something like an ERATAC?
You guy's got my wheels turning here. I agree there is some draw backs to the Prism or Charlie.

Being in Canada I am limited to a 10k joules muzzle energy (I need to follow this to shoot King up here) so I need more elevation than you guys. I've got a Charlie now that will let me dial out to 2 miles.

To be able to stretch to 2 miles with no adder I'd have to run an 18 Mil offset, which would use the top of my reticle (max hold under) at about 1350yards, true zero (center reticle) would be about 2055 yards. This would allow me to dial to 3330 Yards. Then at 2 miles I need to hold another 4 mils.
The problem is this leaves me no room to hold under for targets in side of 1350. If I go down to a 9 mil offset I max out at 3390 Yards. but gives me the ability to hold under all the way in to 100.

I thought I could run an ERATAC or Ivey mount and then I'd only have to adjust it for matches where there are targets inside 1200 and out passed 3400. I haven't shot many matches but going to start, from what I have seen most matches that go out past 3000yards start at 1500 ish.
If I didn't have to adjust mid match I feel that avoids repeatability problems, ERATAC wouldn't be on the fly adjustable but I feel would lock down more solid.

Thoughts?

p.s. I've been thinking about a March Genesis but I need to play with one first and or get a 50% cert or something lol.

Hey dummy, split the difference, use a 15mil offset then you can hold under at 1000 and hold over at 2 miles...

 

[Texashark]

My Atacr on my .416 has a 17.5” offset at 100 yds, with a true zero at about 1100 yds
Thats with a 60 moa rail and 20 moa unimount.

 

[amymorgan20]

I agree that it will remain a niche. There are real barriers to entry in terms of cost but beyond that, the requirements for different skill sets is probably actually harder. You need good shooting fundamentals, good reloading skills, good understanding of exterior ballistics and at some point, good wind calling skills. The first two aren't that big of an ask from other disciplines. The next two are a much bigger ask and the fact that you need all four to do well makes ELR just about the most demanding shooting there is. Add on the cost of the equipment and yeah, you are down to a tiny fraction of the population. I don't see any of that changing.

-Alex

There are dozens of us! Dozens!

 

[phlegm]

Most I know zero at 100 yards. I recall one shooter saying he used a custom rail to shift his zero down further so he was actually zeroed at the top of his Mil-XT. This allowed him to reach 2 miles without an external device.

 

[Taylorbok]

Guy's who are running a Prism or Charlie, I'd rather clip it to a rail but I don't know of a bridge that will go into a normal forend that will fit over an 1.25" tube? easy way is a chassis but I prefer a stock

 

[phlegm]

Guy's who are running a Prism or Charlie, I'd rather clip it to a rail but I don't know of a bridge that will go into a normal forend that will fit over an 1.25" tube? easy way is a chassis but I prefer a stock

The ones I've seen have all been custom mounts built by the gunsmith. Robert Vestal is very capable of doing this for you.

 

[Taylorbok]

The ones I've seen have all been custom mounts built by the gunsmith. Robert Vestal is very capable of doing this for you.

I was thinking custom might be the solution, being in Canada may have its limitations to getting something done by Vestal. I'm not savy on the import laws but have been told some super weird shit in regards to getting stuff shipped up but then others have no issue.

This would work also, long rail. Probably better then it's for sure lined up, instead of just hoping. I guess kill 2 birds with one stone also, get my extra cant in the rail and be able to mount the Charlie.

P.S. Thanks for the info on this. I should be able to run from 1000 yards top of my reticle out to 2 miles on the bottom with no additional devices. putting the Charlie on will allow me to stretch even farther. Color me excited

...I guess crappy thing is I'm about low as you go here so my 1000 yard zero falls into no where land when DA goes up.
What's the highest and lowest DA you guys see attending any of these ELR matches?

 

[dttheliman]

I was thinking custom might be the solution, being in Canada may have its limitations to getting something done by Vestal. I'm not savy on the import laws but have been told some super weird shit in regards to getting stuff shipped up but then others have no issue.

This would work also, long rail. Probably better then it's for sure lined up, instead of just hoping. I guess kill 2 birds with one stone also, get my extra cant in the rail and be able to mount the Charlie.

P.S. Thanks for the info on this. I should be able to run from 1000 yards top of my reticle out to 2 miles on the bottom with no additional devices. putting the Charlie on will allow me to stretch even farther. Color me excited

...I guess crappy thing is I'm about low as you go here so my 1000 yard zero falls into no where land when DA goes up.
What's the highest and lowest DA you guys see attending any of these ELR matches?

That rail is made by Mirage URL - the setup above ^^ is a 30moa rail + 20moa rings = 50moa , and that nightforce is zeroed at 100 yds , Mirage has also made me an extended 50moa rail for a pierce action on a different rifle - exactly the same outcome can use a prism or charlie as required, Ill try find a picture and post the 50 moa

And here is the 50moa on a different action/s&B scope and chassis - it also zeroed at 100 yards, it looks longer than it is but that's just perspective