What is a reasonable accuracy expectation?

[Colorado S14]

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on a reasonable expectation for semi-auto group size. At what point are you happy? I will divide this as well in to two parts, it seems to me that there are two camps in the semi-auto (ar-15/10) world: “Standard Guns” and “Custom Guns”. I understand it is not reasonable to expect the AR15 you built in your basement to meet the same standard as a JP, Seekins, GAP, etc. What do you expect from each?

I ask because I recently built a 224V and am in the process of working up loads for the gun. This weekend I was out at the range and had two loads that consistently shot 5-round 1.07-1.14 MOA groups at 200 yards (with a huge jump due to my current magazine, so there is some work to be done there…) If this was your gun and you could dial it down another quarter MOA and get to .75 MOA would you stop messing with it?

I have never had a “precision” rifle of any sort and want to set my expectations in-line with what is considered good for a semi.

Cheers.

 

[Aaros143]

My experience is only with issued semi autos. No experience with GAP's JP' or any other custom. For me as long as the rifle is 1 MOA or less I'm happy.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

You'll get lots of opinions, mine is same as above...................................factory 1 MOA or better I'm GTG.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Nice looking AR.
Just what accuracy would you be SATISFIED with?
Over the past few years I've practiced and got better.
Worked on or modified the gun and got better results.
Practiced some more and got better.
Then back to the gun (and ammo of course).

My thought is;
If I had a gun that was capable of shooing in the tenths, what would it do with ME on the trigger.

I have a 'semi' sort of. It's a NoGas AR.
I am now in the process of reducing the groups because of the gun, the ammo, and me.
I think I have room for improvement in all 3.

I'm sure a store bought precision gun would do better than my Kitchen Build.
It's the Big Brother to your 224V

I'll edit this a little.
I would not be happy with an AR that wasn't for close up work not being accurate.
I think a reasonable goal, then work to beat it would be;
3 into 1/3, 5 into 1/2, and 10 into 1MOA.

 

[Centuriator]

If those are your groups at 200 yards you have a sub-MOA rifle.

 

[Centuriator]

You do realize that 1 inch at 200 yards is .5 MOA right? You have at least a .75" MOA rifle there, Boss.

 

[Rocketvapor]

You do realize that 1 inch at 200 yards is .5 MOA right? You have at least a .75" MOA rifle there, Boss.

I think he is speaking MOA already.

 

[Colorado S14]

Nice looking AR.
Just what accuracy would you be SATISFIED with?

Thanks.

My only reference is my Tikka 30-06 hunting rifle which can do a .75 MOA 5-shot group, I would love to get this guy down to there or a bit under. I do think that .5 MOA would be an unreasonable expectation for a basement built AR with an off the shelf not hand finished barrel.

 

[Colorado S14]

You do realize that 1 inch at 200 yards is .5 MOA right? You have at least a .75" MOA rifle there, Boss.

Yep, talking MOA not inches. Groups were just over 2”.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Not knowing your abilities I THINK you will get better the more you shoot that AR and do some more load work.
I also think my 3, 5, and 10 shot goals are reasonable .
Who did your barrel?

 

[Colorado S14]

Not knowing your abilities I THINK you will get better the more you shoot that AR and do some more load work.
I also think my 3, 5, and 10 shot goals are reasonable .
Who did your barrel?

Haha, Ballistic Advantage.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I have a BA barrel, 24" bull, that I also run No-Gas, that does pretty good.
It's my sling gun
Got it on sale, don't remember the % off, but they tossed in an assembled upper.
That made it a real good deal.
I shop a lot of sales.
Got the 28" X-Caliber, 1:7, 5R No gas port (notice a trend?) on a Cyber Monday deal.
I'd tell you what I'm shooting but I've been tossed out for less on other forums.
(kidding)


Back on topic.
Sounds like you have a couple loads that show promise. Work on it some more.
Maybe a little fine tuning will get you consistently under 1 MOA.

 

[hypno02]

Quality stainless barrels better shoot 1moa or better. Chromed barrels better hit 2moa with match ammo and 3moa with bulk. With the right shooter and load a good chrome barrel should be 'around' 1moa.

 

[cleric]

Accuracy on gasser is very different than bolts imo...


On the gun the two things that matter the most still matter, barrel and trigger. But with the different type of shooting that can be done, handguard and stock matter. For example my 18in ar is good for 1-1.5 moa but I don’t have a stock that is ideal for prone.

When you get budget ar, I think the biggest quality impact is the trigger. Good trigger work is harder on AR as it’s not a precise

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I have a BA barrel, 24" bull, that I also run No-Gas,
Got the 28" X-Caliber, 1:7, 5R No gas port (notice a trend?)

I have noticed. Inquiring minds would like to know why?

 

[Saf3sh00t3r]

Most people can’t shoot a gas gun accurately. So even if you have one that can shoot below 1 moa, most can’t shoot it that well.

I have experience with JP, LMT, Seekins, and Gap. All great guns.

1moa at 100 is a good accurate gun and good for Gas Gun PRS.

With reloads You can get below 1/2 moa easily.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I have noticed. Inquiring minds would like to know why?

Mostly to try an AR style rifle without gas parts. It's for shooting from a rest.
I'll start a thread on it one day.

 

[samnev]

My experience is only with issued semi autos. No experience with GAP's JP' or any other custom. For me as long as the rifle is 1 MOA or less I'm happy.

Same here. 1MOA or better and I'm happy.

 

[Rifle101]

I actually expect more from the guns I’ve built at home than I would from any high end factory assembled rifle. The reason being that I’ve carefully selected the parts (that I have experience with) and assembled the exact rifle that I envisioned, so I know what it is capable of. Accuracy expectation I guess could depend on your experience level, the parts you’ve selected, and what you’re doing with it. If you’re using a match grade barrel from a reputable company, a good trigger, good reliable optic/sights, and proper assembly, then in today’s world it’s safe to expect at least 1 MOA or better with the right Ammo and a decent shooter. Even the right chrome lined barrels of today will shoot MOA or better with the right load (I’ve had several).

Here’s a 5 shot group at 100 yds from one of my home builds. Barrel is a white oak armament 18” 1:8 twist, Ammo was Magtech CBC 77 gr.

 

[Rocketvapor]

The shooter has a lot to do with it. That's why I think my groups will continue to shrink.
IF I can ever get back to the range
My 3,5,10 shot criteria, and you can add less than 1.5MOA for 60 shots (maybe 2MOA @600 for 60 shots) should be a minimum for anything that is not for house clearing or mag dumps.
Here's a practice 60 shots from 100y

Always end up with a couple fliers.

 

[RackOpsTactical]

I'm of the opinion that a so called kitchen gun with quality parts should do very well. When you go from a $1,200 AR build or purchase to a $2,200 build or purchase you will get diminishing returns.

I'm a precision AR the trigger, the BCG, and the barrel are what's important. That said BA guarantees sub MOA with match ammo. Also Glass and practice are key as well.

A decent AR with reloads should get you .75 MOA all day either benched or prone. You will get there if you stick with it.

 

[DellaDog]

If the stars are aligned, Compass Lake, 20” Krieger. 5 shots.

 

[roamin]

The right AR can shot just as well as any bolt gun. As stated the barrel and the trigger but I would add that the tolerances of the bolt and reciever set are very important as well. But I without a doubt believe that the AR as a system is capable of just as good of accuracy as anything provided the right parts are chosen and I hold my AR10 home build (Mega set, Krieger barrel, Geissele N-Match DMR, & JP BCG) to the same accuracy standard as I would my AX.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I doubt that a general statement that the AR can shoot as well as any bolt gun actually flies in a longer range situation.
I think an AR can come close, with good parts, and some shooters can do really well with an AR.
I say that and see all the .1 and .2 AR's on other forums

If you eliminate rapid fire run and gun, precision shooting with Stoner's design has some built-in limitations.
The trigger being the main difference between the two.
Lock time and hammer torque present opportunities for the human to influence the bullet's path.
A lightweight hammer and trigger pull in an AR isn't going to beat snappy spring loaded firing pin and a 2 ounce trigger on a handheld and fired rifle.
Chamber dimensions to allow semi-auto operation have to be larger than a bolt gun. If you can put up with slow fire only then a 'tight' chamber might be tolerated in an AR. A nice tight chamber and minimal headspace locks in the brass to that precision chamber.
Some even consider the force of an ejector on the cartridge an issue with the AR forcing the case to one side with any chamber space. Can you live without an ejector?

Can I shoot an AR as good as a bolt gun? Sure, I'm not real good with either.
Can I get sub MOA with an AR, YES. All day long? NO. Still gonna try though.

3 into .3, 5 into .5, 10 into 1, 60 into 1.5. at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, on more than one day.
I get to that point with an AR, I'd be sort of happy.

Then I might show up in some magazine article.

In F-T/R where you find alot of target AR's, very few AR's in F-Open, 60 shots in 1 MOA is in the 'pretty good shootin' category.
All shots in the 1 MOA ten ring.

All shots within 2 MOA gets you into the 90's. Even I can do that, if you exclude a few fliers

 

[*AimSmall*]

I dont own a bolt gun but Im thinking ill end up with an AI eventually. My first AR build was a 308

I havnt done very many group shots with it but most of the ones I have done have been moa or less. And this is with 175gr remanufactured ammo from freedom munitions. Im not sure the sd or velocity of this ammo bit im sure It would be a 1/2 to 5/8 moa shooter with reloads.

Those are the only groups ive shot with this rifle, im sure my groups would be better now since ive been shooting it more and working more on fundamentals. Those groups were shot a year ago.

This plate was at 940. My wife amd I were both shooting it. The wind was from 8- oclock, 6-12 mph. This was my first time shooting out at this distance. Before this the furthest ive shot was 300 yards. Had a second round impact the plate is pretty big 15"x19". Even with 2 different shooters the impacts were in a general area. I havnt had a chance to true any software yet, at the time I shot this I didnt quite understand how all that works. Since listening to the podcast amd reading here I think I am getting it.
I just ordered some federal gold medal 175 which might shoot a little better. I think with more trigger time amd the right ammo this gun can hold sub moa.
Meta maten mkm reciever set
Jp 20" supermatch bull barrel
Jp lowmass bcg
SLR adjustible gas block
Surefire break
gieselle trigger

This year I plan on buying myself a JP lrp in 6.5 and my wife a JP valkyrie and hopfully have both of us go to a MHSA training detachment class.

 

[Climate17]

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on a reasonable expectation for semi-auto group size. At what point are you happy? I will divide this as well in to two parts, it seems to me that there are two camps in the semi-auto (ar-15/10) world: “Standard Guns” and “Custom Guns”. I understand it is not reasonable to expect the AR15 you built in your basement to meet the same standard as a JP, Seekins, GAP, etc. What do you expect from each?

I ask because I recently built a 224V and am in the process of working up loads for the gun. This weekend I was out at the range and had two loads that consistently shot 5-round 1.07-1.14 MOA groups at 200 yards (with a huge jump due to my current magazine, so there is some work to be done there…) If this was your gun and you could dial it down another quarter MOA and get to .75 MOA would you stop messing with it?

I have never had a “precision” rifle of any sort and want to set my expectations in-line with what is considered good for a semi.

Cheers.

I bought an LWRCI SPR years ago and with hand loads I get 3/4 to 1/2 MOA with hand loads.

I will say that it’s exceptional in my opinion.

 

[MtnCreek]

I dont own a bolt gun but Im thinking ill end up with an AI eventually. My first AR build was a 308View attachment 7002814
I havnt done very many group shots with it but most of the ones I have done have been moa or less. And this is with 175gr remanufactured ammo from freedom munitions. Im not sure the sd or velocity of this ammo bit im sure It would be a 1/2 to 5/8 moa shooter with reloads.View attachment 7002816View attachment 7002817View attachment 7002818
Those are the only groups ive shot with this rifle, im sure my groups would be better now since ive been shooting it more and working more on fundamentals. Those groups were shot a year ago.View attachment 7002819
This plate was at 940. My wife amd I were both shooting it. The wind was from 8- oclock, 6-12 mph. This was my first time shooting out at this distance. Before this the furthest ive shot was 300 yards. Had a second round impact the plate is pretty big 15"x19". Even with 2 different shooters the impacts were in a general area. I havnt had a chance to true any software yet, at the time I shot this I didnt quite understand how all that works. Since listening to the podcast amd reading here I think I am getting it.
I just ordered some federal gold medal 175 which might shoot a little better. I think with more trigger time amd the right ammo this gun can hold sub moa.
Meta maten mkm reciever set
Jp 20" supermatch bull barrel
Jp lowmass bcg
SLR adjustible gas block
Surefire break
gieselle trigger

This year I plan on buying myself a JP lrp in 6.5 and my wife a JP valkyrie and hopfully have both of us go to a MHSA training detachment class.

Left handed?

 

[rxer311]

Depends on the use for the gun. In a fighting gun I am good with 3 moa using mil spec ammo as that is what that ammo is capable of. Chf cl barrels are great for longevity but leave accuray on the table.

A semi auto bench gun with a good stainless barrel with match ammo I am good with sub moa but half moa can be achieved with semi autos built with the right parts.

It also comes down to sights and optics. Putting a red dot or a high poewer optic changes capability.

 

[*AimSmall*]

Left handed?

Yes I am left handed

 

[JaoeyP]

I think if you've got a good barrel and decent trigger it's very reasonable to expect to get sub moa from an AR. One thing I haven't seen suggested is tuning the timing with an adjustable gas block. I haven't done it with any of my rifles but have read where guys adjust the gas to where the rifle is just barely kicking out the empties for better accuracy. I believe the theory behind it is slowing down the cycle rate makes it a bit less violent when chambering the cartridge.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Then there are some that go No-Gas, on purpose.
That ought to be Extra-Accurate

 

[JaoeyP]

Then there are some that go No-Gas, on purpose.
That ought to be Extra-Accurate

Yep. I've known guys with no gas ARs who were getting 1/2 moa with factory ammo. That REALLY slows down the cycling!

 

[Billiam1211]

I agree with a lot of what was mentioned above... I think there’s a lot of hype around super accurate gas guns and people are expecting 1/2 MOA all day performance.

My experience is that I was a victim of the YouTube hype. I built a kitchen LR-308 and couldn’t get the damn thing below 1.5 MOA. I became obsessed with accurizing it and eventually tweaked reloads, tried all sorts of bullet/powder combos, I even pulled the barrel off sent it back and got a different one (twice)...

I think first off my expectations weren’t real. Fortunately I think I’ve learned a lot and have become a better shooter as a result of this process. With the new barrel and match load I’ve made (and all the practice I’ve had while trouble shooting) I can consistently shoot 3/4 MOA at 100 yards and 200 yards. Occasionally I squeeze out a 1/2 minute group, although that’s certainly not the majority.

A few groups below from my load work ups... it’s a 24-inch Criterion Bull Barrel in 308 from Fulton Armory

 

[Rocketvapor]

Sometimes I can get a dime sized group, sometimes a nickel, and a bunch of quarter sized groups, at 100yd.
Sometimes not
These were different factory loads, and reloads.
Little black arrows are scope adjustments, red marks are groups (all 5 round) that exceeded 1.047"
No gas AR-15, 100 yds, bench.

Considering the scope adjustments to center up that's 60 shots in under 1.5 MOA but at only 100 yds.

 

[roamin]

I doubt that a general statement that the AR can shoot as well as any bolt gun actually flies in a longer range situation.
I think an AR can come close, with good parts, and some shooters can do really well with an AR.
I say that and see all the .1 and .2 AR's on other forums

If you eliminate rapid fire run and gun, precision shooting with Stoner's design has some built-in limitations.
The trigger being the main difference between the two.
Lock time and hammer torque present opportunities for the human to influence the bullet's path.
A lightweight hammer and trigger pull in an AR isn't going to beat snappy spring loaded firing pin and a 2 ounce trigger on a handheld and fired rifle.
Chamber dimensions to allow semi-auto operation have to be larger than a bolt gun. If you can put up with slow fire only then a 'tight' chamber might be tolerated in an AR. A nice tight chamber and minimal headspace locks in the brass to that precision chamber.
Some even consider the force of an ejector on the cartridge an issue with the AR forcing the case to one side with any chamber space. Can you live without an ejector?

Can I shoot an AR as good as a bolt gun? Sure, I'm not real good with either.
Can I get sub MOA with an AR, YES. All day long? NO. Still gonna try though.

3 into .3, 5 into .5, 10 into 1, 60 into 1.5. at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, on more than one day.
I get to that point with an AR, I'd be sort of happy.

Then I might show up in some magazine article.

In F-T/R where you find alot of target AR's, very few AR's in F-Open, 60 shots in 1 MOA is in the 'pretty good shootin' category.
All shots in the 1 MOA ten ring.
View attachment 7000647
All shots within 2 MOA gets you into the 90's. Even I can do that, if you exclude a few fliers

Ok but my AR shoots about the same as my AXSA.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I think an SKS with original sights is 6 MOA @100 meters according USSR standards. I have the fucking commie manual around here someplace and is second to my Mini-30. Fuck a bunch of pistol grip rifles with optics.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I do a little SKS. Twice a year down in Hendry County, Fla.
A little group get together for 4 days, camping, eating, shooting, eating.

 

[BLKGNMN]

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on a reasonable expectation for semi-auto group size. At what point are you happy? I will divide this as well in to two parts, it seems to me that there are two camps in the semi-auto (ar-15/10) world: “Standard Guns” and “Custom Guns”. I understand it is not reasonable to expect the AR15 you built in your basement to meet the same standard as a JP, Seekins, GAP, etc. What do you expect from each?

I ask because I recently built a 224V and am in the process of working up loads for the gun. This weekend I was out at the range and had two loads that consistently shot 5-round 1.07-1.14 MOA groups at 200 yards (with a huge jump due to my current magazine, so there is some work to be done there…) If this was your gun and you could dial it down another quarter MOA and get to .75 MOA would you stop messing with it?

I have never had a “precision” rifle of any sort and want to set my expectations in-line with what is considered good for a semi.

Cheers.

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on a reasonable expectation for semi-auto group size. At what point are you happy? I will divide this as well in to two parts, it seems to me that there are two camps in the semi-auto (ar-15/10) world: “Standard Guns” and “Custom Guns”. I understand it is not reasonable to expect the AR15 you built in your basement to meet the same standard as a JP, Seekins, GAP, etc. What do you expect from each?

I ask because I recently built a 224V and am in the process of working up loads for the gun. This weekend I was out at the range and had two loads that consistently shot 5-round 1.07-1.14 MOA groups at 200 yards (with a huge jump due to my current magazine, so there is some work to be done there…) If this was your gun and you could dial it down another quarter MOA and get to .75 MOA would you stop messing with it?

I have never had a “precision” rifle of any sort and want to set my expectations in-line with what is considered good for a semi.

Cheers.

From my Colt Match H-BAR 1:7 twist , 1980's vintage with iron sights , I can lay a dime on a three shot group fired at 100yds. Using Federal Lake City 62gr FMJ's . For me that is a normal expectation.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

From my Colt Match H-BAR 1:7 twist , 1980's vintage with iron sights , I can lay a dime on a three shot group fired at 100yds. Using Federal Lake City 62gr FMJ's . For me that is a normal expectation.

Lol, ok ?!!!

Let’s be real, while I’ve come across some pretty good lots of M855 that have hovered around 1 MOA, anyone who has been shooting for a hot minute knows that LC 62gr isn’t exactly known for its consistency, let alone being able to produce sub 1/2 MOA on demand...with irons.

This is not a realistic expectation of a performance from a AR and I’ll risk having to eat my own words but I’m going to call it and say you’re full of shit.

 

[Novak77]

My experience is only with issued semi autos. No experience with GAP's JP' or any other custom. For me as long as the rifle is 1 MOA or less I'm happy.

^^ pretty much this ^^

I've got a thing for M14/M1A's if I can get them to shoot 1 MOA or below I consider it a win.

 

[BLKGNMN]

Lol, ok ?!!!

Let’s be real, while I’ve come across some pretty good lots of M855 that have hovered around 1 MOA, anyone who has been shooting for a hot minute knows that LC 62gr isn’t exactly known for its consistency, let alone being able to produce sub 1/2 MOA on demand...with irons.

This is not a realistic expectation of a performance from a AR and I’ll risk having to eat my own words but I’m going to call it and say you’re full of shit.

That's ok. I'm just saying that with this semi-auto I can count on a very tight group , that I can expect to be consistent. He was asking and I answered the question. This rifle may be exceptional , and it is my go to if SHTF for out to 600 yds. My M4's by comparison can't hold a candle to my Colt H-BAR competition match. It only has to serve my purpose , and I'm very pleased to have a good shooting rifle.

 

[hypno02]

From my Colt Match H-BAR 1:7 twist , 1980's vintage with iron sights , I can lay a dime on a three shot group fired at 100yds. Using Federal Lake City 62gr FMJ's . For me that is a normal expectation.

If you post a full length video with no edits of you stapling targets, shooting, and checking said targets while achieving the following ill PayPal you $100.

1. Shoot three three shot groups with above hbar iron sighted rifle on the same piece of paper at 100yds
2. Shoot factory LC 62gr loads lol
3. If you shoot one 3 shot group that you can hide a dime with you get the cash.


Hey OP don’t listen to this guy. He’s presenting a completely unrealistic accuracy expectation.

 

[BLKGNMN]

Yes, OP he's correct , don't listen to me . That's OK. Wow , it's amazing that the same day I join this group and make my very 1st post , and give MY personal experience to someone who asked for it , I can then be unbelievable ? To the point that it's value to prove my claim is $100.00 ? If I would have known that the shot was so impressive and to then present it as normal I would not have presented it at all. I really was just trying to answer OP and then go on. No I won't take you up on the offer , you aren't worth my time. I never have and never will try to impress you or anyone on my abilities as a shooter or anything for that matter. If it's unbelievable , then man up and call me a liar , I really don't care. OP you can disregard my post that an AR-15 can shoot 3 shots into a spot as small as a dime , ok ? It's apparently not realistic accuracy. I was not aware of that fact when I posted to your request. Good luck and good shooting !

 

[hypno02]

Yes, OP he's correct , don't listen to me . That's OK. Wow , it's amazing that the same day I join this group and make my very 1st post , and give MY personal experience to someone who asked for it , I can then be unbelievable ? To the point that it's value to prove my claim is $100.00 ? If I would have known that the shot was so impressive and to then present it as normal I would not have presented it at all. I really was just trying to answer OP and then go on. No I won't take you up on the offer , you aren't worth my time. I never have and never will try to impress you or anyone on my abilities as a shooter or anything for that matter. If it's unbelievable , then man up and call me a liar , I really don't care. OP you can disregard my post that an AR-15 can shoot 3 shots into a spot as small as a dime , ok ? It's apparently not realistic accuracy. I was not aware of that fact when I posted to your request. Good luck and good shooting !

You’re right you dumbshit it’s completely unbelieveable to shoot three shots into a dime using LC 62gr ammo at 100 yds. Of course you won’t take me up on my offer because you’re full of shit.

Most quality rifles won’t shoot that dog shit ammo within 1” at 50yds and you’re trying to tell us you shoot that rifle (with irons) as good as a precision bolt gun at 100yds. Get fucked.

Of course you won’t take up the offer. Because you’re retarded for saying that and you know it. Someone ban this fucktard.

 

[diderr]

After some frustration and lots of load development I settled with about 1/2 moa with my MK12 clone. It’s a CLE Douglas

 

[XP1K]

I've got a dpms varmint upper that started out with a 24" barrel. It's on an Anderson lower that I put together. Rock river two stage trigger. I cut and recrowned the barrel at 20" and threaded it for a brake. It wears an omega now though most of the time. I was zeroing with some Hornady American gunner 55gr hollow points the other day and had a couple three shot groups that were 1/2-5/8". I'm thinking about loading some Sierra 52gr benchrest for it just to see what I can squeeze out of it. But for a factory upper and no more than I've got in it I'm happy.

 

[brianf]

factory or semi factory small bore ar's (not 308) with factory ammo are 5/8-3/4 guns at best as a rule.

you may find better or a good lot, and hand loading is a help for sure but youll be hard pressed to create (no matter how much you spend) a true 5 shot 1/2" @100 ar.

yes we all have a few groups in our pocket and phone but weekend to weekend group to group, 1/2" ar's not cherry picked is not common at all.

for us older members how many AR's are on the target challange that was big the last year or 2, not many

 

[XP1K]

factory or semi factory small bore ar's (not 308) with factory ammo are 5/8-3/4 guns at best as a rule.

you may find better or a good lot, and hand loading is a help for sure but youll be hard pressed to create (no matter how much you spend) a true 5 shot 1/2" @100 ar.

yes we all have a few groups in our pocket and phone but weekend to weekend group to group, 1/2" ar's not cherry picked is not common at all.

for us older members how many AR's are on the target challange that was big the last year or 2, not many

This is true. I find it a lot harder to stay consistent with my my large frame AR than my ar15's.

As you can see in this target out of my PWS mk216 in 308. Applied a little more pressure against the stock on shots 4 and five and totally ruined what I had going. Relaxed on number 5 and it was up where it was supposed to be. Factory 175 gold medal.

These were fired one at a time after a thorough cleaning. Foulers for load development. I like to give every load I test the same chance.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Don't forget that with a 3 shot group you only get to toss out one flier, a 5 shot group toss out no more than 2,
and with a 10 shot group, well, you get the point

 

[Belisarius]

I've had good luck with my ar15, around moa, I'd guess.