H&K Tactical 45 or the Mark 23. Proven in combat much longer, and more reliably than just about anything else you can name. Incredible out the box performance.
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Sidearms & Scatterguns What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case
- Thread starter NorthernBorn
- Start date
There are plenty of great pistols that I would consider optimum for my purposes. The original posting asked us to say what we think would be the best one, and why. Here is my input.
1. It must be absoutely reliable. Why? Because an unreliable piece could malfunction at the worst possible moment, and end up causing me worse problems.
2. At least 40 caliber. Why? Although there is plenty of really good 9mm ammo, and I believe that a sucking chest wound takes most of the fight out of the majority of people, I'm going to rely on Jeff Cooper's input for this requirement. He has far more experience than I do.
3. Reasonable ammunition capacity. Why? A 5 shot pistol is fine for a backup gun, but it lacks sufficient ammo for me to be comfortable with it as a primary carry piece. I don't require 20 rounds of 45 acp, or 10mm, but I would like more than 5 shots.
4. Reasonably accurate. Why? I'll start by defining reasonably accurate as my being able to complete head shots at 10-15 yards. I don't need to do 25 yard heat shots with a carry piece. For my purposes, reliability trumps accuracy every time. I would prefer a pistol that will only shoot 6" groups at 25 yards, if it is fantastically reliable, over a pistol that will shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards, but has occasional malfunctions.
5. Able to get parts for. Why? I don't want a pistol that is so obscure that I have to wait months and hope that the manufacturer will have a part. I would much prefer a pistol that is in common use, so I can find parts within an hours drive, or one where spare parts are really common.
6. A pistol of reasonable size. Why? A pistol that is so large or heavy that I won't carry it won't do me much good if it is in the car, or at home.
These are my primary requirements. Other things are preferences. Obviously, there are a great number of pistols that will work out for me. The three types of pistols I seem to use the most are 1911, Glocks, and revolvers. Each has it's strong and weak points. Any pistols that don't work well for my purposes are sold or traded off.
I don't stockpile guns I don't use, the only firearms around my place are ones that I use. For that reason, I have thinned out my armory greatly over the past 10 years. If they aren't useful, I use them to get something I will use. After all, they are just tools.
1. It must be absoutely reliable. Why? Because an unreliable piece could malfunction at the worst possible moment, and end up causing me worse problems.
2. At least 40 caliber. Why? Although there is plenty of really good 9mm ammo, and I believe that a sucking chest wound takes most of the fight out of the majority of people, I'm going to rely on Jeff Cooper's input for this requirement. He has far more experience than I do.
3. Reasonable ammunition capacity. Why? A 5 shot pistol is fine for a backup gun, but it lacks sufficient ammo for me to be comfortable with it as a primary carry piece. I don't require 20 rounds of 45 acp, or 10mm, but I would like more than 5 shots.
4. Reasonably accurate. Why? I'll start by defining reasonably accurate as my being able to complete head shots at 10-15 yards. I don't need to do 25 yard heat shots with a carry piece. For my purposes, reliability trumps accuracy every time. I would prefer a pistol that will only shoot 6" groups at 25 yards, if it is fantastically reliable, over a pistol that will shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards, but has occasional malfunctions.
5. Able to get parts for. Why? I don't want a pistol that is so obscure that I have to wait months and hope that the manufacturer will have a part. I would much prefer a pistol that is in common use, so I can find parts within an hours drive, or one where spare parts are really common.
6. A pistol of reasonable size. Why? A pistol that is so large or heavy that I won't carry it won't do me much good if it is in the car, or at home.
These are my primary requirements. Other things are preferences. Obviously, there are a great number of pistols that will work out for me. The three types of pistols I seem to use the most are 1911, Glocks, and revolvers. Each has it's strong and weak points. Any pistols that don't work well for my purposes are sold or traded off.
I don't stockpile guns I don't use, the only firearms around my place are ones that I use. For that reason, I have thinned out my armory greatly over the past 10 years. If they aren't useful, I use them to get something I will use. After all, they are just tools.
1911.
After all those years of service, I really don't think I need to explain why. We all know what it is.
After all those years of service, I really don't think I need to explain why. We all know what it is.
U.S. Army Rejects the 9mm; Seeks More Powerful Cartridge
An interesting article.
On July 29th, the United States Army will be providing select handgun manufacturers with the criteria for the next service sidearm. And it won't be a 9mm.
I've been saying for years that when they are finally done with the M9, I bet the next service weapon will go back to the .45. My money is on the HK, FNX, or Sig 227. It's possible they will compromise to the .40 for female shooters and that loud minority that says the .45 is harder to control. After all, the 9mm was a colossal compromise. So it wouldn't be the first time they made the wrong decision in the name of leaving everyone unhappy.
An interesting article.
On July 29th, the United States Army will be providing select handgun manufacturers with the criteria for the next service sidearm. And it won't be a 9mm.
I've been saying for years that when they are finally done with the M9, I bet the next service weapon will go back to the .45. My money is on the HK, FNX, or Sig 227. It's possible they will compromise to the .40 for female shooters and that loud minority that says the .45 is harder to control. After all, the 9mm was a colossal compromise. So it wouldn't be the first time they made the wrong decision in the name of leaving everyone unhappy.
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.mil needs better ammo, not a different firearm or caliber. I never have figured out why we hold ourselves to the Hague IV when we never signed the fucking thing. We can shoot Hellfires at individual enemy soldiers, but heaven forbid we shoot them with an XTP.
the pistol cartridge debate is so gay it aint funny. they're all equally underpowered aside of the magnum pistol cartridges especially with barrel lengths that are easy to carry. they are ther for a means of last defense and ease of use. none of them are ideal but they all work. i am with redmanss that we need better ammunition not another pissing match over stubby little worthless pistol cartridges.
ammo on board wins out everytime for me because murphy shows up and brings his friends. i dont subscribe to the ol' "ya only need one .45 to do the job" bullshit. thats not how dynamic gunfights work. fire superiority through suppression may be needed and i just doubt i am gonna get that with 7+1 1911...
I once read a crime study that showed every investigated shooting in the US for over 100 years. It showed that it takes between 2.4 and 2.6 shots on target to incapacitate victim/perp with everything from .380 to .44 Magnum. Which essentially means they all suck. The study didn't describe the effects of shots not on target, which may or may not show more deviation in rounds to incapacitation.
If this study was legitimate, it would go to suggest one should "choose" the handgun with the greatest capacity which he or she can shoot fastest, so long as it's .380 or larger. I believe we all understand that the answer is 9mm as far as capacity and control.
Overall, training, skillset, and reliability are going to be more important than cartridge selection. Stupid hypotheticals that use the word "ultimate" are stupid.
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If this study was legitimate, it would go to suggest one should "choose" the handgun with the greatest capacity which he or she can shoot fastest, so long as it's .380 or larger. I believe we all understand that the answer is 9mm as far as capacity and control.
Overall, training, skillset, and reliability are going to be more important than cartridge selection. Stupid hypotheticals that use the word "ultimate" are stupid.
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The arguments for and against the 9mm are legion. Certainly the above two posts are common rebuttals.
But no one ever complained about the 1911 for the first 70 years it served us. No one said the capacity was too low and it lacked terminal ballistics. Maybe there is something to it that just doesn't show up on a data sheet.
This gentleman was here in the store one day singing the praises of his high capacity 9mm and declaring the 1911 to be an archaic museum piece. He used as an example his "good buddy" who was an LEO for God awful long and the finest shot in the county. In his first shooting he told me the LEO fired a dozen rounds before hitting his target the first time. Emptied his 17 rounder in the end. Apparently that was evidence in his world that you need that many rounds. Had he been carrying a 1911 he would be dead.
I told him his buddy only wasted the first dozen rounds because he knew he had them to waste. Had he been shooting a weapon with lesser capacity, he would have settled down and fired as he knew how to from the beginning.
I know, all that debate about how you will perform under stress, etc, etc. But the reality remains the same. It's not about how many rounds you have in your magazine. It's what you do with them. Knowing you have less, maybe you make them count. Small things make the difference. Knowing in your mind that you can't spray and pray and you have to focus on the front sight and squeeze, may just be the thing that provides you with the necessary focus at just the right moment.
Just sharing a few thoughts. All just my humble opinion of course.
But no one ever complained about the 1911 for the first 70 years it served us. No one said the capacity was too low and it lacked terminal ballistics. Maybe there is something to it that just doesn't show up on a data sheet.
This gentleman was here in the store one day singing the praises of his high capacity 9mm and declaring the 1911 to be an archaic museum piece. He used as an example his "good buddy" who was an LEO for God awful long and the finest shot in the county. In his first shooting he told me the LEO fired a dozen rounds before hitting his target the first time. Emptied his 17 rounder in the end. Apparently that was evidence in his world that you need that many rounds. Had he been carrying a 1911 he would be dead.
I told him his buddy only wasted the first dozen rounds because he knew he had them to waste. Had he been shooting a weapon with lesser capacity, he would have settled down and fired as he knew how to from the beginning.
I know, all that debate about how you will perform under stress, etc, etc. But the reality remains the same. It's not about how many rounds you have in your magazine. It's what you do with them. Knowing you have less, maybe you make them count. Small things make the difference. Knowing in your mind that you can't spray and pray and you have to focus on the front sight and squeeze, may just be the thing that provides you with the necessary focus at just the right moment.
Just sharing a few thoughts. All just my humble opinion of course.
What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case
Nobody complained because it was state if the art.
I own Sig, Glock, and a custom 1911. I shoot the 1911 into the tiniest groups but groups done matter. I'm faster with the Glock than anything else and has over double the capacity and weighs less.
We used front stuffers or quite some time and "it worked" but that doesn't mean we stopped advancing. There are always people that cling to old ways. I know guys that still regularly shoot Hawkens. Your preference doesn't make you wrong or right. It just means that's what gives you a warm fuzzy.
I own and love many types of pistols but you're a moron it you think one is the "ultimate".
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Nobody complained because it was state if the art.
I own Sig, Glock, and a custom 1911. I shoot the 1911 into the tiniest groups but groups done matter. I'm faster with the Glock than anything else and has over double the capacity and weighs less.
We used front stuffers or quite some time and "it worked" but that doesn't mean we stopped advancing. There are always people that cling to old ways. I know guys that still regularly shoot Hawkens. Your preference doesn't make you wrong or right. It just means that's what gives you a warm fuzzy.
I own and love many types of pistols but you're a moron it you think one is the "ultimate".
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And you sound like a polymer hater that works in a gun shop singing the praises of a 1911. Anytime you get to ask someone who has engaged in a firefight ask them if they wish they had less ammunition and if they performed the fundamentals perfectly.
Of course there's an ultimate gun. It's just different for every person in every situation, which only leaves a few million possibilities.
I'm not even sure what a combat pistol is, to be honest. If I'm ever in actual combat, my pistol better be my backup gun in case my rifle runs out of ammo...
As for the capacity vs power debate, I'll take the one I can control easily any day. When I used to use my "under powered" 9mm in IPSC type competition, I beat a lot of guys with 45s because even though they got more points for shots outside the x-ring, I got a lot more holes in the center. I love 1911s, but in a life or death situation, my vote is for a 9mm in the heart over a 45 through the thigh...
Glock 17.
1) Very easy to fix, repair.
2) Lots of aftermarket options.
3) As durable / reliable as anything else.
4) Large magazine capacity.
5) 9mm is the most common ammo in the world. It doesn't weight much and gets the job done if you place your shots correctly (although I admit that .40 and .45 do have more power, but see numbers 6 and 7).
6) 9mm is the "native" caliber of the Glock. In my experience (literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks in USPSA competition), 9mm Glocks really are a tad bit more reliable than Glocks in other calibers.
7) 9mm is low recoiling--much less recoil than .40 or .45.
8) Glocks are lightweight.
9) Glocks are easy to manipulate (big slide to rack, big ejection port for clearing malfunctions).
10) No extra controls on a Glock to mess up on (i.e., decocking the gun or pushing a safety back on).
11) The trigger on a Glock is good IF you know what you are doing. Many of those who hate Glock triggers don't really know how to use them.
1) Very easy to fix, repair.
2) Lots of aftermarket options.
3) As durable / reliable as anything else.
4) Large magazine capacity.
5) 9mm is the most common ammo in the world. It doesn't weight much and gets the job done if you place your shots correctly (although I admit that .40 and .45 do have more power, but see numbers 6 and 7).
6) 9mm is the "native" caliber of the Glock. In my experience (literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks in USPSA competition), 9mm Glocks really are a tad bit more reliable than Glocks in other calibers.
7) 9mm is low recoiling--much less recoil than .40 or .45.
8) Glocks are lightweight.
9) Glocks are easy to manipulate (big slide to rack, big ejection port for clearing malfunctions).
10) No extra controls on a Glock to mess up on (i.e., decocking the gun or pushing a safety back on).
11) The trigger on a Glock is good IF you know what you are doing. Many of those who hate Glock triggers don't really know how to use them.
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any gun that you are confident and proficient with in all situations..... such as weak hand, on your back, on your side or any unorthodox situation that can occur when it hits the fan.
the most accurate / most expensive gun out there turns into a polished POS if you don't train and practice
I'm a firm believer in "train like you fight,,, fight like you train"
the most accurate / most expensive gun out there turns into a polished POS if you don't train and practice
I'm a firm believer in "train like you fight,,, fight like you train"
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Having seen how weak a 9mm is on a person who was sober, and seeing how ineffective it was on a person who was high; I will never carry a 9mm. I love single action, and I am a 1911 guy however I sold them for an hk45. p
Paper data and theories are worthless and can usually be manipulated by whomever is conducting their "research" to come to their desired conclusion. You want to test, put death row inmates to good use. Otherwise, understand that the .45 is a staple not just because it was what we had at the time, but more-so because it works. If you think you need a drum mag on your pistol, fine. But before all you 9mm guys try to convince us (and obviously yourselves) about how awesome the 9mm is, you should really do some research on the .38 long colt (a 9.2mm cartridge) in the Philippines during the Philippine - American war.
Paper data and theories are worthless and can usually be manipulated by whomever is conducting their "research" to come to their desired conclusion. You want to test, put death row inmates to good use. Otherwise, understand that the .45 is a staple not just because it was what we had at the time, but more-so because it works. If you think you need a drum mag on your pistol, fine. But before all you 9mm guys try to convince us (and obviously yourselves) about how awesome the 9mm is, you should really do some research on the .38 long colt (a 9.2mm cartridge) in the Philippines during the Philippine - American war.
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This. A .50 AE can be worthless in the hands of an unfamiliar individual.
More sweat in peace, less blood in war.
I would also add to this that Glocks are very easy to reload. Polymer on Polymer is very forgiving.
I agree with you, but I am sure you realize that all of the "major" pistol calibers are poor stoppers.
Didn't you know? 350 ft-lbs from .45 ACP has "knockdown power" that 350 ft-lbs from a 9mm never will have. It's night and day. Research the Great War against the Dinosaurs of 1407 BC. 9mm just bounced off their skin and .45 dropped them dead.
Meanwhile, if you compare the .38 Long Colt only had about 165 ft-lbs of energy. Comparing it to 9x19 loads of today is foolish and disingenuous.
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A little conservative on the Ft/lb's with the magical .45acp
230 grn. / 970 fps / @ 25 ft / it is right around the 475 Ft/lb impact energy
If I remember right there was an Fed. statistics on the average distance of pistol engagement was something like, 3 to 12 ft. . and average time from start to finish was like 4 seconds .
So (to me ) the most important thing is not Cal. or size about 'most Ultimate Awesome' combat pistol . It Is to have it Something your hand 1st that you have built a good muscle memory around .
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I went off the box I had laying next to me...230 gr FMJ, 835 FPS, 356 ft-lbs.
If you're going off .45 ACP +P, I believe your numbers are more accurate. Then again, those 9mm numbers weren't +p either. Cor-Bon 115 gr 9mm +P JHP is 1350 FPS, 466 ft-lbs.
This information is irrelevant to the purpose of my post; which is that he equated an old rimfire revolver round to the modern 9x19.
If you're going off .45 ACP +P, I believe your numbers are more accurate. Then again, those 9mm numbers weren't +p either. Cor-Bon 115 gr 9mm +P JHP is 1350 FPS, 466 ft-lbs.
This information is irrelevant to the purpose of my post; which is that he equated an old rimfire revolver round to the modern 9x19.
Field strip a 1911 r u serious?
I have Sig 1911r one of the easiest guns to strip. I can this blindfolded with no tools...The only thing against this HG in combat is the 8 rnd mag. Other than that boom is all you need, day over!
I have Sig 1911r one of the easiest guns to strip. I can this blindfolded with no tools...The only thing against this HG in combat is the 8 rnd mag. Other than that boom is all you need, day over!
Ultimate Combat Pistol
FNP.45 Tactical something about 15 +1 in .45 that screams Ultimate combat pistol !! suppressor and RMR ready what more do you need out of a combat pistol
FNP.45 Tactical something about 15 +1 in .45 that screams Ultimate combat pistol !! suppressor and RMR ready what more do you need out of a combat pistol
UCP?
My Top 2 would be:
1. Springfield Armory 1911 TRP OPERATOR in .45ACP
2. Springfield Armory XDm 4.5 & 5.25 in .45ACP
9mm, .40s&w and .45ACP all are worthy for various individual/agency specific needs. .40s&w imho is NOT a new shooter friendly or short barrel round. And re that I happen to have many years shooting/instructing on .40 (not by choice). XDm in 9mm is perfect for those who want more rounds available (19) and less recoil.
My Top 2 would be:
1. Springfield Armory 1911 TRP OPERATOR in .45ACP
2. Springfield Armory XDm 4.5 & 5.25 in .45ACP
9mm, .40s&w and .45ACP all are worthy for various individual/agency specific needs. .40s&w imho is NOT a new shooter friendly or short barrel round. And re that I happen to have many years shooting/instructing on .40 (not by choice). XDm in 9mm is perfect for those who want more rounds available (19) and less recoil.
I have seen dash cam videos of a shooting where a suspect with a knife took a direct 45 acp hit and then dropped the knife and asked the cop why he shot him at which point the cop had to start fighting with the guy to get him into cuffs. Point is all pistol calibers suck if you are expecting a one shot stop. Shot placement wins the fight not caliber size.
While I am a real fan of the 1911 & its my wife's favorite (CDP) I am old school - an old S&W wheelgun in a 357 or larger gets my approval - 44 & 45 are easy to shoot & make a grand statement, loaded with Keith SWC at reasonable velocities. My IDPA gun center in picture.
Attachments
I noticed a lot of guys said the MK23…If I had to carry around a MK23 I would be PISSED. Those things are massive. You can get higher capacity, lighter weight, etc in a much smaller package.
I shot a NY state championship match in Pine City - Chemung County NY several years ago with that 629 revolver (center) in SSR which is dominated by 38spl - I beat two gents who used 38spl's LOL that should be easy enough to find at Pine City website - my power factor was high enough to have shot ESR but if memory is correct nobody shot in ESR, that was the year everyone shot a 1911 in CDP.
Talk about really having to evaluate your shooting ability for the 2 gents I beat out "ouch"
Wife & I went to Va to pick up our youngest boy from AT, while in Va. we found a local IDPA match, I remember the MD commenting people are not bears, I beat a couple gents shooting 38spl at that match as well, but I had to, being new to that range all eyes where on wife & I, pressure was on.
mildly loaded with hard cast 250gr Keith SWC very similar to the 45acp / 357 performance.
A 1911 for a semi
Keep it simple, select a proven reliable platform then pick a caliber (or the other way around).
Guns are similar to golf clubs and no one gun or club does it all. I hate golf but have a couple dozen handguns in various calibers. I bounce back & fourth what I carry depending on attire. It could be my .357 LCR in my pocket or my Glock, USP 45 or CZ 75.
Guns are similar to golf clubs and no one gun or club does it all. I hate golf but have a couple dozen handguns in various calibers. I bounce back & fourth what I carry depending on attire. It could be my .357 LCR in my pocket or my Glock, USP 45 or CZ 75.
We have the Mk23 trials pistols at work. They are no joke, the size of an MP5 or Krink. Those old B&T cans are massive.
Here's some porn:
That thing is huge!
Almost a Pifle??? Damn, stick a detachable butt stock on it and you have a nice semi auto Carbine.
Almost a Pifle??? Damn, stick a detachable butt stock on it and you have a nice semi auto Carbine.
