Sidearms & Scatterguns What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

[Unknown]

There are plenty of great pistols that I would consider optimum for my purposes. The original posting asked us to say what we think would be the best one, and why. Here is my input.

1. It must be absoutely reliable. Why? Because an unreliable piece could malfunction at the worst possible moment, and end up causing me worse problems.

2. At least 40 caliber. Why? Although there is plenty of really good 9mm ammo, and I believe that a sucking chest wound takes most of the fight out of the majority of people, I'm going to rely on Jeff Cooper's input for this requirement. He has far more experience than I do.

3. Reasonable ammunition capacity. Why? A 5 shot pistol is fine for a backup gun, but it lacks sufficient ammo for me to be comfortable with it as a primary carry piece. I don't require 20 rounds of 45 acp, or 10mm, but I would like more than 5 shots.

4. Reasonably accurate. Why? I'll start by defining reasonably accurate as my being able to complete head shots at 10-15 yards. I don't need to do 25 yard heat shots with a carry piece. For my purposes, reliability trumps accuracy every time. I would prefer a pistol that will only shoot 6" groups at 25 yards, if it is fantastically reliable, over a pistol that will shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards, but has occasional malfunctions.

5. Able to get parts for. Why? I don't want a pistol that is so obscure that I have to wait months and hope that the manufacturer will have a part. I would much prefer a pistol that is in common use, so I can find parts within an hours drive, or one where spare parts are really common.

6. A pistol of reasonable size. Why? A pistol that is so large or heavy that I won't carry it won't do me much good if it is in the car, or at home.

These are my primary requirements. Other things are preferences. Obviously, there are a great number of pistols that will work out for me. The three types of pistols I seem to use the most are 1911, Glocks, and revolvers. Each has it's strong and weak points. Any pistols that don't work well for my purposes are sold or traded off.

I don't stockpile guns I don't use, the only firearms around my place are ones that I use. For that reason, I have thinned out my armory greatly over the past 10 years. If they aren't useful, I use them to get something I will use. After all, they are just tools.

 

[proneshooter]

Smith & Wesson's Models 13 and 65

 

[Redmanss]

.mil needs better ammo, not a different firearm or caliber. I never have figured out why we hold ourselves to the Hague IV when we never signed the fucking thing. We can shoot Hellfires at individual enemy soldiers, but heaven forbid we shoot them with an XTP.

 

[Matno]

.mil needs better ammo, not a different firearm or caliber. I never have figured out why we hold ourselves to the Hague IV when we never signed the fucking thing. We can shoot Hellfires at individual enemy soldiers, but heaven forbid we shoot them with an XTP.

Amen to that!

 

[Killswitch Engage]

U.S. Army Rejects the 9mm; Seeks More Powerful Cartridge

An interesting article.

On July 29th, the United States Army will be providing select handgun manufacturers with the criteria for the next service sidearm. And it won't be a 9mm.

I've been saying for years that when they are finally done with the M9, I bet the next service weapon will go back to the .45. My money is on the HK, FNX, or Sig 227. It's possible they will compromise to the .40 for female shooters and that loud minority that says the .45 is harder to control. After all, the 9mm was a colossal compromise. So it wouldn't be the first time they made the wrong decision in the name of leaving everyone unhappy.

the pistol cartridge debate is so gay it aint funny. they're all equally underpowered aside of the magnum pistol cartridges especially with barrel lengths that are easy to carry. they are ther for a means of last defense and ease of use. none of them are ideal but they all work. i am with redmanss that we need better ammunition not another pissing match over stubby little worthless pistol cartridges.

ammo on board wins out everytime for me because murphy shows up and brings his friends. i dont subscribe to the ol' "ya only need one .45 to do the job" bullshit. thats not how dynamic gunfights work. fire superiority through suppression may be needed and i just doubt i am gonna get that with 7+1 1911...

 

[tylerw02]

I once read a crime study that showed every investigated shooting in the US for over 100 years. It showed that it takes between 2.4 and 2.6 shots on target to incapacitate victim/perp with everything from .380 to .44 Magnum. Which essentially means they all suck. The study didn't describe the effects of shots not on target, which may or may not show more deviation in rounds to incapacitation.

If this study was legitimate, it would go to suggest one should "choose" the handgun with the greatest capacity which he or she can shoot fastest, so long as it's .380 or larger. I believe we all understand that the answer is 9mm as far as capacity and control.

Overall, training, skillset, and reliability are going to be more important than cartridge selection. Stupid hypotheticals that use the word "ultimate" are stupid.


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[Matno]

If you want to learn how to control your rounds under stress, go paintballing in a Speedo. It may not perfectly simulate the real thing but it can be pretty real!

 

[tylerw02]

What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

Nobody complained because it was state if the art.

I own Sig, Glock, and a custom 1911. I shoot the 1911 into the tiniest groups but groups done matter. I'm faster with the Glock than anything else and has over double the capacity and weighs less.

We used front stuffers or quite some time and "it worked" but that doesn't mean we stopped advancing. There are always people that cling to old ways. I know guys that still regularly shoot Hawkens. Your preference doesn't make you wrong or right. It just means that's what gives you a warm fuzzy.

I own and love many types of pistols but you're a moron it you think one is the "ultimate".

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[Killswitch Engage]

The arguments for and against the 9mm are legion. Certainly the above two posts are common rebuttals.

But no one ever complained about the 1911 for the first 70 years it served us. No one said the capacity was too low and it lacked terminal ballistics. Maybe there is something to it that just doesn't show up on a data sheet.

This gentleman was here in the store one day singing the praises of his high capacity 9mm and declaring the 1911 to be an archaic museum piece. He used as an example his "good buddy" who was an LEO for God awful long and the finest shot in the county. In his first shooting he told me the LEO fired a dozen rounds before hitting his target the first time. Emptied his 17 rounder in the end. Apparently that was evidence in his world that you need that many rounds. Had he been carrying a 1911 he would be dead.

I told him his buddy only wasted the first dozen rounds because he knew he had them to waste. Had he been shooting a weapon with lesser capacity, he would have settled down and fired as he knew how to from the beginning.

I know, all that debate about how you will perform under stress, etc, etc. But the reality remains the same. It's not about how many rounds you have in your magazine. It's what you do with them. Knowing you have less, maybe you make them count. Small things make the difference. Knowing in your mind that you can't spray and pray and you have to focus on the front sight and squeeze, may just be the thing that provides you with the necessary focus at just the right moment.

Just sharing a few thoughts. All just my humble opinion of course.

And you sound like a polymer hater that works in a gun shop singing the praises of a 1911. Anytime you get to ask someone who has engaged in a firefight ask them if they wish they had less ammunition and if they performed the fundamentals perfectly.

 

[Matno]

I own and love many types of pistols but you're a moron it you think one is the "ultimate".

Of course there's an ultimate gun. It's just different for every person in every situation, which only leaves a few million possibilities.

I'm not even sure what a combat pistol is, to be honest. If I'm ever in actual combat, my pistol better be my backup gun in case my rifle runs out of ammo...

As for the capacity vs power debate, I'll take the one I can control easily any day. When I used to use my "under powered" 9mm in IPSC type competition, I beat a lot of guys with 45s because even though they got more points for shots outside the x-ring, I got a lot more holes in the center. I love 1911s, but in a life or death situation, my vote is for a 9mm in the heart over a 45 through the thigh...

 

[Delta4-3]

If you leave your pistol and extra mags at home you have room for 3 extra hand grenades...just sayin.

 

[K_4c]

^ I opt for 40mm buckshot (m576) instead of the m67's

 

[Dutch110]

Perfect combat pistol? Whichever one I am carrying.

 

[proneshooter]

U.S. Army Rejects the 9mm; Seeks More Powerful Cartridge

An interesting article.

On July 29th, the United States Army will be providing select handgun manufacturers with the criteria for the next service sidearm. And it won't be a 9mm.

I've been saying for years that when they are finally done with the M9, I bet the next service weapon will go back to the .45. My money is on the HK, FNX, or Sig 227. It's possible they will compromise to the .40 for female shooters and that loud minority that says the .45 is harder to control. After all, the 9mm was a colossal compromise. So it wouldn't be the first time they made the wrong decision in the name of leaving everyone unhappy.

This is NOT going to happen. You can take that to the bank.

 

[bigwatchpilot]

CZ...

I think I have most mentioned in the safe. This is my perfect handgun, and my wife's.

 

[blackgoat]

H&K Tactical 45 or the Mark 23. Proven in combat much longer, and more reliably than just about anything else you can name. Incredible out the box performance.

Mark 23 is such an awesome pistol; I would own one if they didn't cost so much.

 

[wewaslim]

The "perfect" combat pistol is the one you 1. Have with you 2. can place your shots accurately 3. Have adequate ammunition. No hand-held weapon can create a one-shot stop with a poor hit. Just my .02.

 

[JB02]

My G41. That was the best $550 I ever spent.

 

[EasyGravy]

1895 nagant. Never look back

 

[aahunt03]

sig

 

[SatCong]

Les Bear Concept VI.

 

[Nemesis Lead]

Glock 17.

1) Very easy to fix, repair.

2) Lots of aftermarket options.

3) As durable / reliable as anything else.

4) Large magazine capacity.

5) 9mm is the most common ammo in the world. It doesn't weight much and gets the job done if you place your shots correctly (although I admit that .40 and .45 do have more power, but see numbers 6 and 7).

6) 9mm is the "native" caliber of the Glock. In my experience (literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks in USPSA competition), 9mm Glocks really are a tad bit more reliable than Glocks in other calibers.

7) 9mm is low recoiling--much less recoil than .40 or .45.

8) Glocks are lightweight.

9) Glocks are easy to manipulate (big slide to rack, big ejection port for clearing malfunctions).

10) No extra controls on a Glock to mess up on (i.e., decocking the gun or pushing a safety back on).

11) The trigger on a Glock is good IF you know what you are doing. Many of those who hate Glock triggers don't really know how to use them.

 

[sc951]

any gun that you are confident and proficient with in all situations..... such as weak hand, on your back, on your side or any unorthodox situation that can occur when it hits the fan.

the most accurate / most expensive gun out there turns into a polished POS if you don't train and practice

I'm a firm believer in "train like you fight,,, fight like you train"

 

[JaysonF]

Having seen how weak a 9mm is on a person who was sober, and seeing how ineffective it was on a person who was high; I will never carry a 9mm. I love single action, and I am a 1911 guy however I sold them for an hk45. p
Paper data and theories are worthless and can usually be manipulated by whomever is conducting their "research" to come to their desired conclusion. You want to test, put death row inmates to good use. Otherwise, understand that the .45 is a staple not just because it was what we had at the time, but more-so because it works. If you think you need a drum mag on your pistol, fine. But before all you 9mm guys try to convince us (and obviously yourselves) about how awesome the 9mm is, you should really do some research on the .38 long colt (a 9.2mm cartridge) in the Philippines during the Philippine - American war.

 

[JaysonF]

any gun that you are confident and proficient with in all situations..... such as weak hand, on your back, on your side or any unorthodox situation that can occur when it hits the fan.

the most accurate / most expensive gun out there turns into a polished POS if you don't train and practice

I'm a firm believer in "train like you fight,,, fight like you train"

This. A .50 AE can be worthless in the hands of an unfamiliar individual.
More sweat in peace, less blood in war.

 

[DroidSniper]

This is a dumb thread idea.

Serious intelligent answer, here you go.

"Ultimate Combat" and "pistol" are mutually exclusive. Handguns are not first choice tactical tools, they are only chosen after long guns for compromising reasons (size, weight, access, etc)

So there is no Ultimate Combat Pistol, because it is already a second choice to much better suited options.

The Ultimate Combat small arm is already well known by all industry professionals, which is why it is the same basic configuration chosen by all professional armies worldwide:

- Intermediate caliber battle rifle
- Select fire
- Detachable high capacity magazines
- Close-medium range irons & optics
- Indirect fire capability
- Ability to clear malfunctions and strip in immediately in field

The ergonomics of any particular design are fairly irrelevant compared to these criteria. It can be a US M4, Russian AK-12, German G36; all in the proper configuration.



So just for the sake of playing along, the ultimate combat pistol is not a specific design, it is also a set of criteria. The set of criteria is not as well known, as there isn't nearly as much focus on developing the ultimate sidearm as the ultimate long gun.

The criteria for the most tactical advantageous sidearm are:

- Medium-full size platform
- Medium high velocity caliber (9x19 minimum, not ideal)
- Detachable high capacity magazines
- Tritium & enclosed fiber optic iron sights (Truglo TFOs)
- Threaded barrel for suppressor & mount
- Railed frame for flashlight
- Ability to slide lock
- Ability to action lock
- Single action trigger
- Internal/shrouded hammer
- Ability to clear malfunctions and strip in immediately in field

Unfortunately, such an ideal combination of features doesn't currently exist.

-

well said

 

[Nemesis Lead]

Glock 17.

1) Very easy to fix, repair.

2) Lots of aftermarket options.

3) As durable / reliable as anything else.

4) Large magazine capacity.

5) 9mm is the most common ammo in the world. It doesn't weight much and gets the job done if you place your shots correctly (although I admit that .40 and .45 do have more power, but see numbers 6 and 7).

6) 9mm is the "native" caliber of the Glock. In my experience (literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks in USPSA competition), 9mm Glocks really are a tad bit more reliable than Glocks in other calibers.

7) 9mm is low recoiling--much less recoil than .40 or .45.

8) Glocks are lightweight.

9) Glocks are easy to manipulate (big slide to rack, big ejection port for clearing malfunctions).

10) No extra controls on a Glock to mess up on (i.e., decocking the gun or pushing a safety back on).

11) The trigger on a Glock is good IF you know what you are doing. Many of those who hate Glock triggers don't really know how to use them.

I would also add to this that Glocks are very easy to reload. Polymer on Polymer is very forgiving.

 

[Nemesis Lead]

Having seen how weak a 9mm is on a person who was sober, and seeing how ineffective it was on a person who was high; I will never carry a 9mm. I love single action, and I am a 1911 guy however I sold them for an hk45. p
Paper data and theories are worthless and can usually be manipulated by whomever is conducting their "research" to come to their desired conclusion. You want to test, put death row inmates to good use. Otherwise, understand that the .45 is a staple not just because it was what we had at the time, but more-so because it works. If you think you need a drum mag on your pistol, fine. But before all you 9mm guys try to convince us (and obviously yourselves) about how awesome the 9mm is, you should really do some research on the .38 long colt (a 9.2mm cartridge) in the Philippines during the Philippine - American war.

I agree with you, but I am sure you realize that all of the "major" pistol calibers are poor stoppers.

 

[tylerw02]

I agree with you, but I am sure you realize that all of the "major" pistol calibers are poor stoppers.

Didn't you know? 350 ft-lbs from .45 ACP has "knockdown power" that 350 ft-lbs from a 9mm never will have. It's night and day. Research the Great War against the Dinosaurs of 1407 BC. 9mm just bounced off their skin and .45 dropped them dead.

Meanwhile, if you compare the .38 Long Colt only had about 165 ft-lbs of energy. Comparing it to 9x19 loads of today is foolish and disingenuous.

 

[dang472]

Jack Bauer one-shot-stops fuckers with a HK P30 so take that shit to the bank.

 

[softcock]

Didn't you know? 350 ft-lbs from .45 ACP has "knockdown power" that 350 ft-lbs from a 9mm never will have. It's night and day. Research the Great War against the Dinosaurs of 1407 BC. 9mm just bounced off their skin and .45 dropped them dead.

Meanwhile, if you compare the .38 Long Colt only had about 165 ft-lbs of energy. Comparing it to 9x19 loads of today is foolish and disingenuous.

-
A little conservative on the Ft/lb's with the magical .45acp
230 grn. / 970 fps / @ 25 ft / it is right around the 475 Ft/lb impact energy

If I remember right there was an Fed. statistics on the average distance of pistol engagement was something like, 3 to 12 ft. . and average time from start to finish was like 4 seconds .
So (to me ) the most important thing is not Cal. or size about 'most Ultimate Awesome' combat pistol . It Is to have it Something your hand 1st that you have built a good muscle memory around .
.

 

[tylerw02]

I went off the box I had laying next to me...230 gr FMJ, 835 FPS, 356 ft-lbs.

If you're going off .45 ACP +P, I believe your numbers are more accurate. Then again, those 9mm numbers weren't +p either. Cor-Bon 115 gr 9mm +P JHP is 1350 FPS, 466 ft-lbs.

This information is irrelevant to the purpose of my post; which is that he equated an old rimfire revolver round to the modern 9x19.

 

[Culpeper Minuteman]

Field strip a 1911 r u serious?

There is no Ultimate anything, especially a sidearm. Maybe if you did not use the "U" word you may have gotten some different response some of the guys here. I think its kinda played out here.

M9 and the 1911 platforms have proven themselves. But, sit your butt down in the snow with wet, frozen, dirty hands and field strip them with nothing other that a wet corner of your jacket and some breakfree to clean them with and you may personally have another opinion about them. Especially the 1911.

I had a mk23 and I got a great deal on it. It was stable and smooth (for a 45) to shoot. But, it is a boat anchor, heavy, hugh in your hands and you really get the frame size driven home when you holster it up. The rail requires adapters for most lights and its another piece of frail plastic to fail, especially in frozen conditions. Also, I did not like the use of an o-ring either. Its an antiquated design IMO and was just not for me and I unloaded it while it was in sweet condition.

Glocks, XD & XDM's, M&P's are showing themselves to be viable platforms. They have have relilability, simplicity in field maintenance and reasonable accuracy in stock configurations. The one of them that fits your hand may be your "U" word?

Regards,
DS

I have Sig 1911r one of the easiest guns to strip. I can this blindfolded with no tools...The only thing against this HG in combat is the 8 rnd mag. Other than that boom is all you need, day over!

 

[ittayem66]

Ultimate Combat Pistol

FNP.45 Tactical something about 15 +1 in .45 that screams Ultimate combat pistol !! suppressor and RMR ready what more do you need out of a combat pistol

 

[US TRIPLE TAP]

UCP?

My Top 2 would be:
1. Springfield Armory 1911 TRP OPERATOR in .45ACP
2. Springfield Armory XDm 4.5 & 5.25 in .45ACP

9mm, .40s&w and .45ACP all are worthy for various individual/agency specific needs. .40s&w imho is NOT a new shooter friendly or short barrel round. And re that I happen to have many years shooting/instructing on .40 (not by choice). XDm in 9mm is perfect for those who want more rounds available (19) and less recoil.

 

[355sigfan]

Glock 17. Boom. done.

Agreed.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

Having seen how weak a 9mm is on a person who was sober, and seeing how ineffective it was on a person who was high; I will never carry a 9mm. I love single action, and I am a 1911 guy however I sold them for an hk45. p
Paper data and theories are worthless and can usually be manipulated by whomever is conducting their "research" to come to their desired conclusion. You want to test, put death row inmates to good use. Otherwise, understand that the .45 is a staple not just because it was what we had at the time, but more-so because it works. If you think you need a drum mag on your pistol, fine. But before all you 9mm guys try to convince us (and obviously yourselves) about how awesome the 9mm is, you should really do some research on the .38 long colt (a 9.2mm cartridge) in the Philippines during the Philippine - American war.

I have seen dash cam videos of a shooting where a suspect with a knife took a direct 45 acp hit and then dropped the knife and asked the cop why he shot him at which point the cop had to start fighting with the guy to get him into cuffs. Point is all pistol calibers suck if you are expecting a one shot stop. Shot placement wins the fight not caliber size.

 

[Bugs Bunny]

While I am a real fan of the 1911 & its my wife's favorite (CDP) I am old school - an old S&W wheelgun in a 357 or larger gets my approval - 44 & 45 are easy to shoot & make a grand statement, loaded with Keith SWC at reasonable velocities. My IDPA gun center in picture.

 

[rgrmike]

I noticed a lot of guys said the MK23…If I had to carry around a MK23 I would be PISSED. Those things are massive. You can get higher capacity, lighter weight, etc in a much smaller package.

 

[brt1963]

the answer would be Webley, because Zardoz. in either .455 or re-bored to .45ACP

 

[tylerw02]

While I am a real fan of the 1911 & its my wife's favorite (CDP) I am old school - an old S&W wheelgun in a 357 or larger gets my approval - 44 & 45 are easy to shoot & make a grand statement, loaded with Keith SWC at reasonable velocities. My IDPA gun center in picture.

Not sure if you're being serious..


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[Bugs Bunny]

Not sure if you're being serious..


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I shot a NY state championship match in Pine City - Chemung County NY several years ago with that 629 revolver (center) in SSR which is dominated by 38spl - I beat two gents who used 38spl's LOL that should be easy enough to find at Pine City website - my power factor was high enough to have shot ESR but if memory is correct nobody shot in ESR, that was the year everyone shot a 1911 in CDP.

Talk about really having to evaluate your shooting ability for the 2 gents I beat out "ouch"

Wife & I went to Va to pick up our youngest boy from AT, while in Va. we found a local IDPA match, I remember the MD commenting people are not bears, I beat a couple gents shooting 38spl at that match as well, but I had to, being new to that range all eyes where on wife & I, pressure was on.

mildly loaded with hard cast 250gr Keith SWC very similar to the 45acp / 357 performance.

A 1911 for a semi

 

[tylerw02]

I shot a NY state championship match in Pine City - Chemung County NY several years ago with that 629 revolver (center) in SSR which is dominated by 38spl - I beat two gents who used 38spl's LOL that should be easy enough to find at Pine City website - my power factor was high enough to have shot ESR but if memory is correct nobody shot in ESR, that was the year everyone shot a 1911 in CDP.

Talk about really having to evaluate your shooting ability for the 2 gents I beat out "ouch"

Wife & I went to Va to pick up our youngest boy from AT, while in Va. we found a local IDPA match, I remember the MD commenting people are not bears, I beat a couple gents shooting 38spl at that match as well, but I had to, being new to that range all eyes where on wife & I, pressure was on.

mildly loaded with hard cast 250gr Keith SWC very similar to the 45acp / 357 performance.

A 1911 for a semi

The topic wasn't about IDPA...


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[cal50]

Keep it simple, select a proven reliable platform then pick a caliber (or the other way around).

Guns are similar to golf clubs and no one gun or club does it all. I hate golf but have a couple dozen handguns in various calibers. I bounce back & fourth what I carry depending on attire. It could be my .357 LCR in my pocket or my Glock, USP 45 or CZ 75.

 

[Cobracutter]

I noticed a lot of guys said the MK23…If I had to carry around a MK23 I would be PISSED. Those things are massive. You can get higher capacity, lighter weight, etc in a much smaller package.

We have the Mk23 trials pistols at work. They are no joke, the size of an MP5 or Krink. Those old B&T cans are massive.
Here's some porn:

 

[steve123]

That thing is huge!

Almost a Pifle??? Damn, stick a detachable butt stock on it and you have a nice semi auto Carbine.

 

[rgrmike]

The MK23 is ridiculous. I was under the impression their service life was very short lived. I can't think of a single situation where I would take a MK23 over a sub gun. I really like the features of the HK45C and wouldn't mind having one for myself. The HK45c and FN seem like nice options if you want a 45 cal suppressor ready pistol.

I believe the original intent for the MK23 was an "offensive pistol". I've heard they're very accurate, great build quality, reliable etc….Just not my cup of tea.

 

[Cobracutter]

rgrmike,

I have a HK45C with Light LEM I use for carry sometimes. They are great guns mechanicaly. There are two problems. First is the trigger. HK trigger's plain suck. DA/SA and the LEM's. While the LEM's are closer to a striker, they still have a long way to go. I anticipate taking thousands of rounds with the gun to get used to the trigger and become proficient with it. The second issue is the grip purchase. For some reason, they used the P200 grip which is too slick. Mine is off right now getting a stipple job, Ill post up when it gets back. I also have a USPC in .45, and actually prefer the gun to the HK45C.

Really hoping there is a VP45 planned for the future. If everything keeps going the way it looks, The VP9 could replace glock as my go to.

Also owned the USP Tactical in .45, which is the little brother to the MK23. Even that is a huge gun. Just could not get used to it, way too big to be practical.

Going to pick up a FNX.45 this weekend, So I'll throw a little comparison up in a few weeks.

 

[tylerw02]

VP9 is on my list. A .45 version would pretty much deal the deal.


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[rgrmike]

rgrmike,

I have a HK45C with Light LEM I use for carry sometimes. They are great guns mechanicaly. There are two problems. First is the trigger. HK trigger's plain suck. DA/SA and the LEM's. While the LEM's are closer to a striker, they still have a long way to go. I anticipate taking thousands of rounds with the gun to get used to the trigger and become proficient with it. The second issue is the grip purchase. For some reason, they used the P200 grip which is too slick. Mine is off right now getting a stipple job, Ill post up when it gets back. I also have a USPC in .45, and actually prefer the gun to the HK45C.

Really hoping there is a VP45 planned for the future. If everything keeps going the way it looks, The VP9 could replace glock as my go to.

Also owned the USP Tactical in .45, which is the little brother to the MK23. Even that is a huge gun. Just could not get used to it, way too big to be practical.

Going to pick up a FNX.45 this weekend, So I'll throw a little comparison up in a few weeks.

Every time I pull the trigger on a HK45C all I think about is how long, hard and shitty the trigger is. I'm sure I could get used to it but it's annoying to say the least. The trigger is the main thing that's held me back from purchasing one. I thought about trying to find and LEM version or install one but after what you're saying I might be disappointed. I'm a Glock guy also and while I really like my Gen4 17 I have gotten grip jobs on both my Gen3 19's and a Gen3 34. I originally went with more of a 1911 grip angle but have settled on more of a traditional Glock grip angle with just moderate stipple. I've had Bowie do a couple and most recently Cold Bore Customs. I like the Cold Bore Customs jobs better. I want to say the turn around time was a lot faster, cheaper, and I like the stipple better.

I would really like a compact version of the HKVP9 or a HKVP45. A threaded barrel would be a plus and if they would cut them from the factory for an ATOM mount or similar that would be the ticket. I look forward to seeing what you have to say about the FNX45. I really love 1911's but the cost, maintenance, and capacity make me shy away from them. I'm always looking for a winner in the 45 ACP field. For me the Glock 21's are just to big, the MP's are all right, and the Sig220's are boat anchors. I have a buddy who is going to let me try out a XD45 for shits and gigs. He really likes them but I've heard of some issues.