H&K Tactical 45 or the Mark 23. Proven in combat much longer, and more reliably than just about anything else you can name. Incredible out the box performance.
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.mil needs better ammo, not a different firearm or caliber. I never have figured out why we hold ourselves to the Hague IV when we never signed the fucking thing. We can shoot Hellfires at individual enemy soldiers, but heaven forbid we shoot them with an XTP.
U.S. Army Rejects the 9mm; Seeks More Powerful Cartridge
An interesting article.
On July 29th, the United States Army will be providing select handgun manufacturers with the criteria for the next service sidearm. And it won't be a 9mm.
I've been saying for years that when they are finally done with the M9, I bet the next service weapon will go back to the .45. My money is on the HK, FNX, or Sig 227. It's possible they will compromise to the .40 for female shooters and that loud minority that says the .45 is harder to control. After all, the 9mm was a colossal compromise. So it wouldn't be the first time they made the wrong decision in the name of leaving everyone unhappy.
The arguments for and against the 9mm are legion. Certainly the above two posts are common rebuttals.
But no one ever complained about the 1911 for the first 70 years it served us. No one said the capacity was too low and it lacked terminal ballistics. Maybe there is something to it that just doesn't show up on a data sheet.
This gentleman was here in the store one day singing the praises of his high capacity 9mm and declaring the 1911 to be an archaic museum piece. He used as an example his "good buddy" who was an LEO for God awful long and the finest shot in the county. In his first shooting he told me the LEO fired a dozen rounds before hitting his target the first time. Emptied his 17 rounder in the end. Apparently that was evidence in his world that you need that many rounds. Had he been carrying a 1911 he would be dead.
I told him his buddy only wasted the first dozen rounds because he knew he had them to waste. Had he been shooting a weapon with lesser capacity, he would have settled down and fired as he knew how to from the beginning.
I know, all that debate about how you will perform under stress, etc, etc. But the reality remains the same. It's not about how many rounds you have in your magazine. It's what you do with them. Knowing you have less, maybe you make them count. Small things make the difference. Knowing in your mind that you can't spray and pray and you have to focus on the front sight and squeeze, may just be the thing that provides you with the necessary focus at just the right moment.
Just sharing a few thoughts. All just my humble opinion of course.
I own and love many types of pistols but you're a moron it you think one is the "ultimate".
This is NOT going to happen. You can take that to the bank.U.S. Army Rejects the 9mm; Seeks More Powerful Cartridge
An interesting article.
On July 29th, the United States Army will be providing select handgun manufacturers with the criteria for the next service sidearm. And it won't be a 9mm.
I've been saying for years that when they are finally done with the M9, I bet the next service weapon will go back to the .45. My money is on the HK, FNX, or Sig 227. It's possible they will compromise to the .40 for female shooters and that loud minority that says the .45 is harder to control. After all, the 9mm was a colossal compromise. So it wouldn't be the first time they made the wrong decision in the name of leaving everyone unhappy.
H&K Tactical 45 or the Mark 23. Proven in combat much longer, and more reliably than just about anything else you can name. Incredible out the box performance.
any gun that you are confident and proficient with in all situations..... such as weak hand, on your back, on your side or any unorthodox situation that can occur when it hits the fan.
the most accurate / most expensive gun out there turns into a polished POS if you don't train and practice
I'm a firm believer in "train like you fight,,, fight like you train"
This is a dumb thread idea.
Serious intelligent answer, here you go.
"Ultimate Combat" and "pistol" are mutually exclusive. Handguns are not first choice tactical tools, they are only chosen after long guns for compromising reasons (size, weight, access, etc)
So there is no Ultimate Combat Pistol, because it is already a second choice to much better suited options.
The Ultimate Combat small arm is already well known by all industry professionals, which is why it is the same basic configuration chosen by all professional armies worldwide:
- Intermediate caliber battle rifle
- Select fire
- Detachable high capacity magazines
- Close-medium range irons & optics
- Indirect fire capability
- Ability to clear malfunctions and strip in immediately in field
The ergonomics of any particular design are fairly irrelevant compared to these criteria. It can be a US M4, Russian AK-12, German G36; all in the proper configuration.
So just for the sake of playing along, the ultimate combat pistol is not a specific design, it is also a set of criteria. The set of criteria is not as well known, as there isn't nearly as much focus on developing the ultimate sidearm as the ultimate long gun.
The criteria for the most tactical advantageous sidearm are:
- Medium-full size platform
- Medium high velocity caliber (9x19 minimum, not ideal)
- Detachable high capacity magazines
- Tritium & enclosed fiber optic iron sights (Truglo TFOs)
- Threaded barrel for suppressor & mount
- Railed frame for flashlight
- Ability to slide lock
- Ability to action lock
- Single action trigger
- Internal/shrouded hammer
- Ability to clear malfunctions and strip in immediately in field
Unfortunately, such an ideal combination of features doesn't currently exist.
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Glock 17.
1) Very easy to fix, repair.
2) Lots of aftermarket options.
3) As durable / reliable as anything else.
4) Large magazine capacity.
5) 9mm is the most common ammo in the world. It doesn't weight much and gets the job done if you place your shots correctly (although I admit that .40 and .45 do have more power, but see numbers 6 and 7).
6) 9mm is the "native" caliber of the Glock. In my experience (literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks in USPSA competition), 9mm Glocks really are a tad bit more reliable than Glocks in other calibers.
7) 9mm is low recoiling--much less recoil than .40 or .45.
8) Glocks are lightweight.
9) Glocks are easy to manipulate (big slide to rack, big ejection port for clearing malfunctions).
10) No extra controls on a Glock to mess up on (i.e., decocking the gun or pushing a safety back on).
11) The trigger on a Glock is good IF you know what you are doing. Many of those who hate Glock triggers don't really know how to use them.
Having seen how weak a 9mm is on a person who was sober, and seeing how ineffective it was on a person who was high; I will never carry a 9mm. I love single action, and I am a 1911 guy however I sold them for an hk45. p
Paper data and theories are worthless and can usually be manipulated by whomever is conducting their "research" to come to their desired conclusion. You want to test, put death row inmates to good use. Otherwise, understand that the .45 is a staple not just because it was what we had at the time, but more-so because it works. If you think you need a drum mag on your pistol, fine. But before all you 9mm guys try to convince us (and obviously yourselves) about how awesome the 9mm is, you should really do some research on the .38 long colt (a 9.2mm cartridge) in the Philippines during the Philippine - American war.
I agree with you, but I am sure you realize that all of the "major" pistol calibers are poor stoppers.
-Didn't you know? 350 ft-lbs from .45 ACP has "knockdown power" that 350 ft-lbs from a 9mm never will have. It's night and day. Research the Great War against the Dinosaurs of 1407 BC. 9mm just bounced off their skin and .45 dropped them dead.
Meanwhile, if you compare the .38 Long Colt only had about 165 ft-lbs of energy. Comparing it to 9x19 loads of today is foolish and disingenuous.
There is no Ultimate anything, especially a sidearm. Maybe if you did not use the "U" word you may have gotten some different response some of the guys here. I think its kinda played out here.
M9 and the 1911 platforms have proven themselves. But, sit your butt down in the snow with wet, frozen, dirty hands and field strip them with nothing other that a wet corner of your jacket and some breakfree to clean them with and you may personally have another opinion about them. Especially the 1911.
I had a mk23 and I got a great deal on it. It was stable and smooth (for a 45) to shoot. But, it is a boat anchor, heavy, hugh in your hands and you really get the frame size driven home when you holster it up. The rail requires adapters for most lights and its another piece of frail plastic to fail, especially in frozen conditions. Also, I did not like the use of an o-ring either. Its an antiquated design IMO and was just not for me and I unloaded it while it was in sweet condition.
Glocks, XD & XDM's, M&P's are showing themselves to be viable platforms. They have have relilability, simplicity in field maintenance and reasonable accuracy in stock configurations. The one of them that fits your hand may be your "U" word?
Regards,
DS
Having seen how weak a 9mm is on a person who was sober, and seeing how ineffective it was on a person who was high; I will never carry a 9mm. I love single action, and I am a 1911 guy however I sold them for an hk45. p
Paper data and theories are worthless and can usually be manipulated by whomever is conducting their "research" to come to their desired conclusion. You want to test, put death row inmates to good use. Otherwise, understand that the .45 is a staple not just because it was what we had at the time, but more-so because it works. If you think you need a drum mag on your pistol, fine. But before all you 9mm guys try to convince us (and obviously yourselves) about how awesome the 9mm is, you should really do some research on the .38 long colt (a 9.2mm cartridge) in the Philippines during the Philippine - American war.
While I am a real fan of the 1911 & its my wife's favorite (CDP) I am old school - an old S&W wheelgun in a 357 or larger gets my approval - 44 & 45 are easy to shoot & make a grand statement, loaded with Keith SWC at reasonable velocities. My IDPA gun center in picture.
Not sure if you're being serious..
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I shot a NY state championship match in Pine City - Chemung County NY several years ago with that 629 revolver (center) in SSR which is dominated by 38spl - I beat two gents who used 38spl's LOL that should be easy enough to find at Pine City website - my power factor was high enough to have shot ESR but if memory is correct nobody shot in ESR, that was the year everyone shot a 1911 in CDP.
Talk about really having to evaluate your shooting ability for the 2 gents I beat out "ouch"
Wife & I went to Va to pick up our youngest boy from AT, while in Va. we found a local IDPA match, I remember the MD commenting people are not bears, I beat a couple gents shooting 38spl at that match as well, but I had to, being new to that range all eyes where on wife & I, pressure was on.
mildly loaded with hard cast 250gr Keith SWC very similar to the 45acp / 357 performance.
A 1911 for a semi
I noticed a lot of guys said the MK23…If I had to carry around a MK23 I would be PISSED. Those things are massive. You can get higher capacity, lighter weight, etc in a much smaller package.