Sidearms & Scatterguns What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

Everyone complains about the size and weight of the MK23 while praising the 1911, but they are essentially the same size and my MK23 is 3 oz. lighter than my Series 80 Gold Cup (empty). Of course, the double-stack MK23 is thicker than the 1911, but otherwise the only difference in size is due to the longer barrel on the MK23. I've been concealed-carrying one recently on occasion, just because I can, and greatly prefer carrying the MK23 to the steel 1911.
 
Define combat. Now that combat scenarios involve low profile gear in urban targets more than ever, concealable armor and firearms are gaining traction. I am and will always be a HK guy. I've owned a few (still do) and although I love the full size 45 tactical, if I had to take one it would probably be the one recently chosen by the Seals for its versatility.

 
HK Mk23 would be my first choice followed closely by the SA TRP and only in that order due to the mag capacity. I think they are both the finest fighting pistols made. I would also put the Sig P220 as a close 3rd. IMHO there are a few requirements for a combat/duty handgun. Obviously they are personal preference but I have my reasons for them.
Must be hammer fired DA/SA design
Must be .45acp or 10mm
Must have a rail
Must function with any type of ammunition and not finicky
 
Define combat. Now that combat scenarios involve low profile gear in urban targets more than ever, concealable armor and firearms are gaining traction. I am and will always be a HK guy. I've owned a few (still do) and although I love the full size 45 tactical, if I had to take one it would probably be the one recently chosen by the Seals for its versatility.




You're going to cost me money....I love my glocks but my next semi-auto is extremely likely to have HK on it. Finding one of the overrun 45CT or mark 24's might prove to be costly/difficult but they seem to be available on gunbroker.
 
What is, in your experience and opinion, the best combat pistol that has been put to market and you would rely on to perform, no matter the conditions, when your lives depend on it up to this point in the long history of firearms?
A lot of answers offered so far, and you did explain what you mean by 'pistol' but you haven't yet explained what you mean by 'combat'.

If, as you stated above, reliability 'no matter the conditions' is the main consideration, then the answer is: Glock.

But, as always, it depends.
 
You're going to cost me money....I love my glocks but my next semi-auto is extremely likely to have HK on it. Finding one of the overrun 45CT or mark 24's might prove to be costly/difficult but they seem to be available on gunbroker.

Just keep an eye for one at your LGS as they are starting to catch up with demand. I will say HK has always put military first, civilians second so they don't always feel the need to meet civilian demand for their firearms. GB is a good place to look. I will tell your BUD's shop has a few in stock with pricing lower than most.

I own a Glock 19, so I know there is a place for them. The are utilitarian and simple to operate. But when I take some novice shooters to the range, I place all kinds of pistols in their hands and every time they gravitate to the HK. It shoots softer, points better and just feel better than any other pistol. My apologies to your pocket book ;)
 
Just keep an eye for one at your LGS as they are starting to catch up with demand. I will say HK has always put military first, civilians second so they don't always feel the need to meet civilian demand for their firearms. GB is a good place to look. I will tell your BUD's shop has a few in stock with pricing lower than most.

I own a Glock 19, so I know there is a place for them. The are utilitarian and simple to operate. But when I take some novice shooters to the range, I place all kinds of pistols in their hands and every time they gravitate to the HK. It shoots softer, points better and just feel better than any other pistol. My apologies to your pocket book ;)

Too bad the tax man taketh away instead of giveth this year...I saw a hide member post G&R...sure enough they have them available.

HK HK45C Tactical (DA/SA) W/Factory Night Sights at G and R Tactical
 
I"ve got a G17, and an M&P .40. Not the best, but they'll work just fine for me. Both are uber reliable and I can hit with them, and that is what counts most.
 
Any gun that fires when I pull the trigger. Guns are just tools, you grab whichever one works at te time.

That being said, my everyday carry and home defense is a Sig P229 .40 cal. Very accurate, very reliable every time.
 
Combat pistol? Shouldn't it be Survival Pistol as if you a relying on a pistol for Combat, your not planning well. The pistol comes into play when everything else is already expended or utilized. In Vietnam the tunnel rats had to use them, but I'm know they would have preferred something better (PDW) and suppressed! Plenty of great reliable pistols are available today, but I would still have a old M1 Carbine over any of my pistols. That being said, a well maintained hi-cap pistol as a Sig, HK, Glock, Beretta, FN, in 9mm with a suppressor would be my chose as I'm using a pistol in Combat I want to be quiet about it!
 
Too bad the tax man taketh away instead of giveth this year...I saw a hide member post G&R...sure enough they have them available.

HK HK45C Tactical (DA/SA) W/Factory Night Sights at G and R Tactical

I'm confused with the ad G&R Tactical has for these pistols. I have one and I sure don't see where the grip panels are changeable, the backstrap yes, but that's it. Also, the tactical usually comes with 2-10 rnd mags, the standard HK45C comes with the 8 rnd.

Back to the OP, I feel the HK45 series is probably the best candidate for all the paramiters you listed.
I carried a 1911 for nearly 30 years. Heck, I was issued/carried an S&W Combat Master Piece when I first entered the military!!
I could never get warmed up to a Glock. Just never felt right in my hand. Doubted I would ever move away from the 1911 platform but that has changed, I now carry the HK45CT. I recently purchased an unthreaded barrel to install since I do not need the threaded barrel for daily carry. These are very accurate pistols.
 
Glock 19. Perfect blend of size and capacity (can add 17rd mag w/ grip extensions if needed). For the average adult male, the one gun that works just as well in a duty holster as Iwb for off duty. Legendary reliability.

I've shot many others. That's just my humble opinion.


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Nice to see so many Mark 23 owners here, it's a hell of pistol even in -51 C. Folks are right about it being a brick, and you might need samsquatch hands to reach the mag release with your thumb, but if you like the late 80's 90's look it's perfect. I heard all the issued ones are gathering dust though.



(disregard fake can that makes me feel more high speed than I really am)
 
My first choice is my FNX Tactical and second would be G21. I ever had any kind of failure in these two which I cannot say for my P220 (just twice, but that's two more than the others.
 
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I am a LEO and have been fortunate to be assigned to a unit that shoots a lot over the last many years. I've been issued a Glock this whole time and never really got too exited about it...you know "plastic pistol" and all.

Personally, I've owned and shot Sigs (P229 and P226--my personal favorite), Beretta 92, HK, Walther, Smith autos, Springfield XDs, and a few other Duty type weapons.

In the end, if I had to grab a handgun and run into trouble in progress, I'd grab a Glock. Let me tell you why:

The trigger system on a Glock is easiest to shoot quickly and effectively. You can teach anyone to double tap well (accurately) with a Glock. The trigger reset on a Glock is safe yet effective. (I guess if you're willing to train a cocked and locked system then a 1911 would be a top trigger.) When I see people list Sigs/Beretta I have to wonder...because much speed is lost in the DA/SA first pull...and when you try to shoot the long trigger pull quickly accuracy goes down.

Glocks are supremely reliable. I've stood on the line at the range with 40 other guys issued glocks shooting thousands of rounds over the years and I'm still amazed at the level of reliability. I have two issued Glocks that have never misfired or failed to fire after many many long days at the range.

Glocks are tough and durable. Snow, rain, mud, climbing holstered over brick walls, crawling holstered through the brush, bla bla bla, and they still perform well. I've seen Glocks abused that still perform reliably. (Caveat--the people I shoot with clean and lube their weapons after every shoot/training day.)

Glocks are light weight. Carrying a handgun daily brings one to appreciate weight. (I know lots of gun enthusiast cops who have custom 1911s in their safes after they got tired of the weight on their belts all day every day and elected to carry something lighter.) A Springfield Operator (a pleasure to shoot and own) is a heavy beast (yeah, it's in my safe.)

Glocks are accurate. I've never seen a Glock that didn't shoot to point of aim after proper adjustment. Glocks will shoot consistently small groups...right up there with the best handguns.

Glocks are high capacity...typically.

Glocks handle/absorb recoil well and they naturally point well. The ergos, while very bland, are utilitarian and very functional. (CZ75s have great grip ergos.)

Glocks are easy to maintain. Glock barrels and slides don't foul easily and clean up easily. The teflon coating...or whatever it's called, keeps the pistol clean a long time. The pistol is easy to take down.

Glock magazines are bomb proof. Doing drills on a range with asphalt can be really hard on magazines. Drop a fully loaded mag on the tarmac over and over again and you'll see failures. I had to give up my Springfield XDs because the mags couldn't take a regular training day without damage. Damage=failure to feed. Good magazines are EVERYTHING in a duty weapon.

Glocks are simple to deploy...they have no external safety. In my experience, handguns with safeties are trouble under stress (Unless you train and train regularly). I can't tell you how many times I've seen people draw and pull the trigger on a "safe" weapon when surprised by a threat in training scenarios.

There are so many other pistols that are so much sexier! I love my Sigs, CZs are nice, and I have an HK USP that I adore. But, in the end, I'd grab a vanilla, tupperware, boring, Glock 17 if I was going into harms way.

What this Gentlemen said above is why my "Combat/SHTF/Nightstand" Pistol Sidearm Weapon is a Glock 21 (4 Gen)....period.
 
Hmmm,

Like others, I think the role of a pistol in combat is to not have a role in combat.

For me, their primary function is to shoot the prisoners :D

But, I'll play...

I have a Mk 23 and I'd never select it - in fact, for ammo purposes, I'd only select a 9mm.
My main beef is that you cannot use the safety unless it's cocked - suppose it takes away options which might not be useful.
So it has two modes - hammer down DA with no safety or cocked SA with safety optional.


Don't like the controls on the M9A1 at all.

My favourite pistol is definitely an H&K USP Tactical (or "SD" as they call it here) in 9mm.
I like the controls - esp the single safety/decocker lever fits perfectly.

I now train most often with a H&K P30 - trying to get my skills up to the level of where I am with the USP.
Decocker on the back of the slide?? Hmm, prefer the USP version, although I'm trying to get used to it.

But if I really needed to put my life on it - Gen 4 Glock 17...
Magazine release is perfect. Reliable. Nothing to screw up under stress.
I don't really like it - I don't really like to shoot it, but as a tool for the job, unbeatable.

Cheers
Farmer
 
OD green gen 3 G21 with Carver Customs mag-well , factory Glock threaded barrel holding an AAC Ti-Rant .45 suppressor, and Tru-Glo high rise three dot green sights to look over can. IllumInated with a Surefire x300 Ultra. This is my "Combat" pistol...but any Glock will do. Wish I knew how to post pics from a phone.
 
FNX 45

Got everything the Mk23 does, but it's meant for normal humans and does not take up its own zipcode. Can swap barrel for threaded if you need versatility, add RMR for optics, or just leave stock. Perfect gun.
 
As a combat, secondary, or survival pistol I consider reliability, accuracy and ease of use as the primary criteria. With that I am going with my custom carry/duty 1911. Now if you are a high ammo capacity person then a STI double stack would fit the bill but in my opinion if you can't kill it 8 .45 ACP rounds your screwed anyway. My justification for this pistol is simple it is built to last, it is built to fire accurately, it is built to fire consistently, and it is very ergonomical. I have ran 7mags of 7 at the cyclic rate with no hesitation or malfunctions after a few weeks of rough carrying, I proved I can rely on my pistol with my life.

My pistol specifications:
Novak Tritium Sights (Columated at .015)
Full Length Guide Rod W/ Extra Power Spring
Pivoting Barrel Bushing
Proper Slide/Frame Fit for Duty/Carry Perameters
Frame Rail Notches Cut
Oversized Ejection Port in Slide
Molded Rubber Front Strap, Aggressive Pistol Grip, and Arched Mainspring Housing (rock solid grip even with wet hands)
Strong Match Grade Extractor and Oversized Ejector
3.5 Trigger W/ Solid Sear and Hammer Hook Contact
All Military Function/Reliability Modifcation Performed
 
Glock 17. Boom. done.
Yep. Dead reliable, easy to find parts, and even easier to work on (should it become necessary). Ammo availability is the best of the centerfire pistol calibers, and accuracy is good enough for a fighting pistol. Not the most comfortable (for some), but competence can be learned easily enough, especially in 9mm. Plenty of ammo capacity.
 
As a combat, secondary, or survival pistol I consider reliability, accuracy and ease of use as the primary criteria. With that I am going with my custom carry/duty 1911. Now if you are a high ammo capacity person then a STI double stack would fit the bill but in my opinion if you can't kill it 8 .45 ACP rounds your screwed anyway. My justification for this pistol is simple it is built to last, it is built to fire accurately, it is built to fire consistently, and it is very ergonomical. I have ran 7mags of 7 at the cyclic rate with no hesitation or malfunctions after a few weeks of rough carrying, I proved I can rely on my pistol with my life.

My pistol specifications:
Novak Tritium Sights (Columated at .015)
Full Length Guide Rod W/ Extra Power Spring
Pivoting Barrel Bushing
Proper Slide/Frame Fit for Duty/Carry Perameters
Frame Rail Notches Cut
Oversized Ejection Port in Slide
Molded Rubber Front Strap, Aggressive Pistol Grip, and Arched Mainspring Housing (rock solid grip even with wet hands)
Strong Match Grade Extractor and Oversized Ejector
3.5 Trigger W/ Solid Sear and Hammer Hook Contact
All Military Function/Reliability Modifcation Performed
I need to get back to you when I get some time from work, this is close to what I might have built...
 
Is the vote over yet? Looks to me like Glock wins. I like Sigs.....love HKs.....but they stay in the safe when and if I have to protect myself and a Glock is on my side. No de-cocker to get in the way or snag. No external safety to get bumped on in a tussle or awkward movement. No oversized slide-stop, and last but not least......no hammer, for minimal internal exposure. I stick with Glocks for a sidearm....and always will.
 
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Sarsilamaz k2 45acp cheap $450ish outperforms pistols costing 3-4 times as much
1 inch groups @ 25 yards rested
6 inch groups @ 25 yards offhand rapid fire
Holds 15 rounds with a grip that feels like it grew out of your hand- & it dosent feel like a double stack
Points naturally - because of weight & high grip & low bore the felt recoil is like shooting a 22 - low bore axis = no muzzle rise -shoots everything you feed it without a hiccup & puts all the brass in a nice little pile 10 feet right and rear- all steel - marine proof -DA/SA trigger carry cocked & locked or Hammer down DA 1st shot
Best trigger I've ever had the pleasure to use - this is the only weapon I have ever owned that I didn't feel the need to modify the trigger - very well designed CZ clone that's actually better than the CZ- their imported by EAA & their warranty & CS SUCKS hind tit- but for the price & quality they still can not be beat - for an all steel bombproof -15 rd - super accurate - super dependable heavy duty battle weapon
 
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I run an HK P30 or P30L for CCW & duty. I have been sold on the pistol since I first shot Todd Green's at an AFHF class several years back. I only own these pistols. I have gone full circle twice trying pretty much everything out there, but the P30 is right for me. It does suck trying to find a good duty holster like an ALS with SF X300, but it is what it is. I do wished the P30 was MRDS friendly, but the Heinies work. I could get more into it, but this guy says it better than I ever could and he has a ton more street experience than myself...



http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549
 
I run an HK P30 or P30L for CCW & duty. I have been sold on the pistol since I first shot Todd Green's at an AFHF class several years back.

I've loved my Sig p226 for the past 22 years, but my next gun will be a p30. Amazing how good they feel and how well they shoot. I just wish they were more in the M&P price range.
 
1911 Wilson CQB.

Mine has about 20k rounds through it (I am on my fifth case of primers) and it is now nicely broken in. At 7 yards shooting briskly but not fast I can shoot all day into the head A-zone on an IPSC target - at 10 yards I'm not quite good enough for that. At 7 yards starting from low-ready I can empty an 8-round magazine into the center-mass A-zone in about 3 seconds -- 2.5 seconds if I don't mind a flyer. Nine rounds of 230 grain center mass is real messy. If something breaks, I can fix it -- I can 'smith a 1911. I can strip it down to the frame and refit and replace anything, I have all the tools I need. I can field strip and reassemble it in a black sack or in the dark quickly enough. It doesn't require much cleaning - more with lead bullets. Most important, the ammo is widely available. My weapon is not fussy - ball, lead, hollow points my weapon doesn't care. I had a couple of malfunctions when the gun was new; I replaced the magazines with Wilson mags and I have not had a malfunction since. I own a bunch of Wilson magazines. It is heavy but not excessively, it is not tiny but the weight helps it to shoot well. It has a wonderful trigger - I can set trigger weight and stone the sear. It is fairly thin. It has good combat sights. There are lots of accessories for it. For me, it is the ideal point and shoot weapon. For what its worth, I also have several Sigs and a Glock and some other 1911s that I built. For a pistol, my go to gun is that Wilson.
 
The ultimate combat pistol is my humble S&W J frame air weight. Why because I carry it every where. Small and light enough to work in 100 degree heat with shorts and a t shirt, dress pants or jeans. Just like my I phone and wallet it never gets left at home.

Yes I have bigger, faster, elephant guns in the safe. This one is my constant companion. Therefore it merits consideration as the candidate who will most likely save my life if I ever need it. I practice with the little guy every week and have absolute confidence in my ability to get the job done.