Sidearms & Scatterguns What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

[rgrmike]

The MK23 is ridiculous. I was under the impression their service life was very short lived. I can't think of a single situation where I would take a MK23 over a sub gun. I really like the features of the HK45C and wouldn't mind having one for myself. The HK45c and FN seem like nice options if you want a 45 cal suppressor ready pistol.

I believe the original intent for the MK23 was an "offensive pistol". I've heard they're very accurate, great build quality, reliable etc….Just not my cup of tea.

 

[Cobracutter]

rgrmike,

I have a HK45C with Light LEM I use for carry sometimes. They are great guns mechanicaly. There are two problems. First is the trigger. HK trigger's plain suck. DA/SA and the LEM's. While the LEM's are closer to a striker, they still have a long way to go. I anticipate taking thousands of rounds with the gun to get used to the trigger and become proficient with it. The second issue is the grip purchase. For some reason, they used the P200 grip which is too slick. Mine is off right now getting a stipple job, Ill post up when it gets back. I also have a USPC in .45, and actually prefer the gun to the HK45C.

Really hoping there is a VP45 planned for the future. If everything keeps going the way it looks, The VP9 could replace glock as my go to.

Also owned the USP Tactical in .45, which is the little brother to the MK23. Even that is a huge gun. Just could not get used to it, way too big to be practical.

Going to pick up a FNX.45 this weekend, So I'll throw a little comparison up in a few weeks.

 

[tylerw02]

VP9 is on my list. A .45 version would pretty much deal the deal.


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[rgrmike]

rgrmike,

I have a HK45C with Light LEM I use for carry sometimes. They are great guns mechanicaly. There are two problems. First is the trigger. HK trigger's plain suck. DA/SA and the LEM's. While the LEM's are closer to a striker, they still have a long way to go. I anticipate taking thousands of rounds with the gun to get used to the trigger and become proficient with it. The second issue is the grip purchase. For some reason, they used the P200 grip which is too slick. Mine is off right now getting a stipple job, Ill post up when it gets back. I also have a USPC in .45, and actually prefer the gun to the HK45C.

Really hoping there is a VP45 planned for the future. If everything keeps going the way it looks, The VP9 could replace glock as my go to.

Also owned the USP Tactical in .45, which is the little brother to the MK23. Even that is a huge gun. Just could not get used to it, way too big to be practical.

Going to pick up a FNX.45 this weekend, So I'll throw a little comparison up in a few weeks.

Every time I pull the trigger on a HK45C all I think about is how long, hard and shitty the trigger is. I'm sure I could get used to it but it's annoying to say the least. The trigger is the main thing that's held me back from purchasing one. I thought about trying to find and LEM version or install one but after what you're saying I might be disappointed. I'm a Glock guy also and while I really like my Gen4 17 I have gotten grip jobs on both my Gen3 19's and a Gen3 34. I originally went with more of a 1911 grip angle but have settled on more of a traditional Glock grip angle with just moderate stipple. I've had Bowie do a couple and most recently Cold Bore Customs. I like the Cold Bore Customs jobs better. I want to say the turn around time was a lot faster, cheaper, and I like the stipple better.

I would really like a compact version of the HKVP9 or a HKVP45. A threaded barrel would be a plus and if they would cut them from the factory for an ATOM mount or similar that would be the ticket. I look forward to seeing what you have to say about the FNX45. I really love 1911's but the cost, maintenance, and capacity make me shy away from them. I'm always looking for a winner in the 45 ACP field. For me the Glock 21's are just to big, the MP's are all right, and the Sig220's are boat anchors. I have a buddy who is going to let me try out a XD45 for shits and gigs. He really likes them but I've heard of some issues.

 

[Cobracutter]

I'm in the same boat.

Grew up shooting Sigs. Don't trust anything but West German Guns. High Bore Axis and slower rapid fire despite good accuracy. Still would like to snag a P228 or M-11 to round out the collection
XD. Bought a XD45 Tactical when they first came out 7-8 years ago. Before I knew better. Horrible recoil, Shitty Grip Saftey and all the other problems of the HS-2000 rebrand.
G21 - Too Big. Don't see the point when the G26/19/27 fit much better. I don't trust Glocks in anything but 9MM, due to a couple issues.
1911's - Owned/Own a bunch, shoot them better than anything. I run my gear hard and abuse it, so its not a great platform for that. Huge Fan of Dan Wessons (Specialist, Valor, V-bob) and will add a Guardian 9MM Bob to the stable eventually.
FNP/X .45 - Shot one a couple years ago at the range. Liked it, Still the DA/SA old school feel, just with modern touches. Very aggressive grip purchase(almost too aggressive), better suited for shooting with gloves. Going to trade a CZ I have laying around for one this weekend.
HK's- Owned USP.45, USP TAC .45, USPC .45 and HK45C LEM. Holding one, taking it apart it reeks of superior engineering, design and construction. Between the Match, V1 and Light LEM, LEM is the winner. Still has a long way to go, and WAY WAY too much take up before you get to the break. HK's would be the perfect gun if not for their trigger and price. VP9 looks to have fixed that. VP45 would also be a killer, and IMO, make the USP/HK45 line obsolete...... I dont think many people are going to buy a P30 now the VP9 is out.

 

[fdkay]

About 85% of all people shot with a handgun survive, so there is no "ultimate combat handgun".
It is a last ditch self defense weapon. They are carried because they are portable, not because they are effective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAtzl0e1OT4

 

[Mendy300wm]

Don't confuse shot with hit well, 85 percent of people that take multiple rounds in the box with quality modern day ammo do not live. And yes if you get shot in a down town area 5-10 min from a hospital your chances also go up for survival. If you train and stay are target till the threat is down the chances for survival are not good, 9mm, 40cal, .45... It don't matter you take 4-5 hydra shocks to the box it's over.

 

[fdkay]

Hit well is easier said than done when the lead is flying in both directions.
Most bad guys don't stand still when your trying to get your sight picture/sight alignment, breathing and trigger press coordinated enough to make a head shot.

In some cases, quantity trumps quality, as in suppressive fire. In that case, the 9mm is the easy winner.
If you want someone dead in a hurry, then a rifle or shotgun is the answer.
The pistol is nothing more than a threat to the bad guy while you get your long gun.
I worked a case a few month ago where a 4 year old was center punched with .45 hardball from less than 10 feet away, he was up and running around 2 days later.
Miraculously, the round, which had impacted immediately above his heart, missed the vena cave and the aorta.

 

[KM375]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-side-arms-k-bars/271705-9mm-wins-thanks-fbi.html

Read

 

[InkedIan]

Idk if it's the best but it's my favorite so far!

 

[355sigfan]

Hit well is easier said than done when the lead is flying in both directions.
Most bad guys don't stand still when your trying to get your sight picture/sight alignment, breathing and trigger press coordinated enough to make a head shot.

In some cases, quantity trumps quality, as in suppressive fire. In that case, the 9mm is the easy winner.
If you want someone dead in a hurry, then a rifle or shotgun is the answer.
The pistol is nothing more than a threat to the bad guy while you get your long gun.
I worked a case a few month ago where a 4 year old was center punched with .45 hardball from less than 10 feet away, he was up and running around 2 days later.
Miraculously, the round, which had impacted immediately above his heart, missed the vena cave and the aorta.

Pistols are weak and shot placement is what matters I agree. However the general statement that a pistol is there to fight your way to a long gun is a bit of a fallacy. I used to say it as well but in reality when you are fighting iwth a pistol your long gun is not going to be handy. For many CCW users its out of the question. For patrol officers its likely to be back in the cruiser a block away with murphys law being what it is. You need to know how to fight with a pistol. Caliber does not matter so much but shot placement does.
Pat

 

[tylerw02]

Agree, Pat. I don't believe on the street getting mugged there should be any illusion that you will fight to a rifle. That just isn't reality.


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[Delta4-3]

Pistols are weak and shot placement is what matters I agree. However the general statement that a pistol is there to fight your way to a long gun is a bit of a fallacy. I used to say it as well but in reality when you are fighting iwth a pistol your long gun is not going to be handy. For many CCW users its out of the question. For patrol officers its likely to be back in the cruiser a block away with murphys law being what it is. You need to know how to fight with a pistol. Caliber does not matter so much but shot placement does.
Pat

Please do not bring logic into these kind of debates sir, it's not welcome here. It's much more entertaining to read strong opinions.

 

[fdkay]

Pistols are weak and shot placement is what matters I agree. However the general statement that a pistol is there to fight your way to a long gun is a bit of a fallacy. I used to say it as well but in reality when you are fighting iwth a pistol your long gun is not going to be handy. For many CCW users its out of the question. For patrol officers its likely to be back in the cruiser a block away with murphys law being what it is. You need to know how to fight with a pistol. Caliber does not matter so much but shot placement does.
Pat

I don't disagree, but as I said earlier, You carry a pistol because it is portable, not effective.
With todays ammo, the .380 is a very viable defense arm in self-defense scenarios.
I'm a big believer in the 9mm or anything you shoot well for that matter.

The question was about the "Ultimate Combat Handgun", an oxymoron if there ever was one.
My point, which seems lost on many of you is that there is no "Ultimate Combat Handgun"

 

[355sigfan]

Agreed with your post just not the saying. Not a .380 fan because the ammo on this caliber can not reliably penetrate and expand you get one or the other. My personal limit is 38 +p loads in a 2 inch barrel as a bare minimum.


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[nikdanja]

If ISIS comes im grabbing my sig M11-A1. And throwing my FNX-45 in a backpack.

 

[355sigfan]

If ISIS comes im grabbing my sig M11-A1. And throwing my FNX-45 in a backpack.

If ISIS was coming I would be crabbing my AR and keeping my pistol in its holster.
Pat

 

[fdkay]

Agree, Pat. I don't believe on the street getting mugged there should be any illusion that you will fight to a rifle. That just isn't reality.


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There is a difference between an immediate threat in a defensive situation and a "Combat Handgun".
A "Combat Handgun" implies that you are carrying said handgun while INTENTIONALLY seeking out and confronting a threat, not reacting to a sudden and likely unforeseen occurrence.
While both instances are certainly "combat", if you are intentionally and aggressively seeking to engage a threat in a firefight and your choice of weapon is a handgun, then I submit, you are doing it wrong.

 

[tylerw02]

Absolutely should not be your choice weapon. The reality is the only combat we will likely see, a rifle will not be involved.

Going into combat, as in seeking a fight, you'd be using it as backup after that rifle goes down.


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[alphadog1]

what kind of handgun is that?

No explanation needed

What kind of hk is that

 

[iareConfusE]

Looks like Mark 23

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[0311 Hesco]

Why hasn't something like the Gas Pedal been used on combat guns? I know that it's a little awkward in the holster, but it could be refined and made to work. The idea is novel.
Gas-Pedal-Duster-Black-Grit-Pedal-Surface-GPD-AL-BLK-GRT-137.htm

 

[fargo007]

I'm going to go with the 1911, and the incredible stopping power of the big fortah-five... right up to it's expiration date. Or is that the model number? ;-)

The FBI is going back to 9mm after finally debunking all the "stopping power" myths.

The FBI is Going 9mm: Here Comes the Science | The Loadout Room

The 9mm wins on higher likelihood of shot placement (controllability), higher round count per magazine, and better performing projectiles are where it's at if science is allowed a seat at the table along with myth and nostalgia.

From the article:

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

· 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

· The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

· There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

· Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers



I understand that the FBI is subject to justifiable criticism as a club of lawyers and accountants with expensive educations and buttery soft skin on their hands, but they do get the science right.

/Fargo007

 

[cal50]

The .357 magnum long held the highest % of one shot stops in handgun shootings (Federal 125 jhp). Since revolvers are considered as obsolete by many it's picking an auto.

. 45 is great for making large diameter holes with or without any bullet expansion. HK makes a few excellent platforms. 9mm has capacity on its side and the CZ 75 is my personal favorite in the caliber.

 

[fargo007]

That's true. The FBI didn't consider revolver calibers at all.

I never shot a CZ75 and always wanted to. Maybe I will check one out.

 

[Echo4Bravo]

I really like my Glock 22, its not sexy, fancy or custom. It works every time I squeeze the trigger, fits my hand comfortably and holds 15+1. It's ugly as sin, I don't have to worry about not finding parts or mags if I need them and I have put more rounds through it than all my other handguns combined. I changed out the sights to meprolite orange rear green front, put in an extended slide catch and replaced the disconnector with a Glock -. It suits every need I can think of. To me the recoil is manageable but I'm 6'7" 275lbs. I won't knock anyone else's choices but those are the reasons it is and will continue to be my go to sidearm.

 

[fdkay]

That's true. The FBI didn't consider revolver calibers at all.

I never shot a CZ75 and always wanted to. Maybe I will check one out.

The CZ75 is an excellent platform.
We just had the CZ guy down to do a demo, I shot the PO 7 and PO 9, both VERY nice. One of the nicest triggers on a stock polymer gun I have ever used. Pointability was excellent.

 

[snipe10]

Well the way shit's going these days, combat might just end up being local so I'm carrying two! Can't pick one as I rotate, usually always have a S&W 38 and then either a Sig 9mm, HK USP45 or 1911,

 

[truth]

cuz i designed it that way

I'm inclined to agree with Joe on this one.

 

[355sigfan]

The .357 magnum long held the highest % of one shot stops in handgun shootings (Federal 125 jhp). Since revolvers are considered as obsolete by many it's picking an auto.

. 45 is great for making large diameter holes with or without any bullet expansion. HK makes a few excellent platforms. 9mm has capacity on its side and the CZ 75 is my personal favorite in the caliber.

The one shot stops study by Evan Marshall had serious flaws and is not generally accepted by the wound ballistics community now. Also under marshals study the 357 mag was 96% while 45 act with 230 hydra shocks from a 5 inch barrel was 96%. 40 aw was 94. And the best 9mm load in his study was 91%. So even with his study there was not a lot of difference between the service calibers. The problem with his study was the way he excluded shootings from his data base where more than one round was fired. It had a tendency to skew the results to make all the rounds look better than they actually are by a lot.


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[cal50]

The one shot stops study by Evan Marshall had serious flaws and is not generally accepted by the wound ballistics community now. Also under marshals study the 357 mag was 96% while 45 act with 230 hydra shocks from a 5 inch barrel was 96%. 40 aw was 94. And the best 9mm load in his study was 91%. So even with his study there was not a lot of difference between the service calibers. The problem with his study was the way he excluded shootings from his data base where more than one round was fired. It had a tendency to skew the results to make all the rounds look better than they actually are by a lot.


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All test / report data should be taken with a grain of salt.
The take away is there is not a huge gap between most centerfire calibers and what someone posted earlier is true that most people shot with a handgun survive.

(Double tap or head shot)

 

[nf9648]

Glock 19; it's simple, light, bombproof, easy to shoot, consistent trigger press for every round fired, and the polymer won't feel 100 degrees or -10 when you establish your grip depending on external factors like a steel or alloy framed gun. If I'm in combat I'm already humping a ton of other crap, I want my secondary as simple and light as possible.