Rifle Scopes What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

Glock45

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Minuteman
Jan 29, 2010
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south-central WI, USA
First off, I understand that the reticle is useful, at face value so-to-speak, for ranging in an FFP at all magnifications and is not on an SFP(well, I know one can figure it out though.)

But, what I am wondering is, what is mechanically going on inside of an FFP scope to have it be more costly than an SFP? Is it etching? Assembly? More lenses? what is happening inside?

I'm <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span></span> intending to debate which is better or worse, that has been done aplenty already. I'm just curious about the construction differences in the optics themselves between SFP and FFP.

TIA

-G45
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

I've seen several discussions on this and the general consensus was that there wasn't any tangible cost differential; only additional R&D put into FFP since SFP is the "standard" and what most manufacturers are tooled up to build.

We certainly see the trend moving toward more and more FFP choices, and from some of the lower-end vendors who didn't traditionally have FFP options (Bushnell, etc). Right now, even if it doesn't cost more to manufacture, they can still charge a bit more as people will pay it. However, it seems that the gap is gradually closing. Witness Vortex Viper PST FFP versus SFP; only a $150 difference in price.

I think eventually, we will get to a point where there is a very minor price difference between FFP and SFP, if any price difference at all.

Of course, just my $0.02 and is based purely anecdotal evidence.
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I understand that the reticle is useful, at face value so-to-speak, for ranging in an FFP at all magnifications and is not on an SFP(well, I know one can figure it out though.)

But, what I am wondering is, what is mechanically going on inside of an FFP scope to have it be more costly than an SFP? Is it etching? Assembly? More lenses? what is happening inside?

I'm <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span></span> intending to debate which is better or worse, that has been done aplenty already. I'm just curious about the construction differences in the optics themselves between SFP and FFP.

TIA

-G45 </div></div>

Well . . . . they are NEW and TRENDY, and people pay for it . . . .
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: yej0001</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I understand that the reticle is useful, at face value so-to-speak, for ranging in an FFP at all magnifications and is not on an SFP(well, I know one can figure it out though.)

But, what I am wondering is, what is mechanically going on inside of an FFP scope to have it be more costly than an SFP? Is it etching? Assembly? More lenses? what is happening inside?

I'm <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span></span> intending to debate which is better or worse, that has been done aplenty already. I'm just curious about the construction differences in the optics themselves between SFP and FFP.

TIA

-G45 </div></div>

Well . . . . they are NEW and TRENDY, and people pay for it . . . .
</div></div>

Agreed. They cost what they do because you and everyone else wants one.
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

Yeah right, the worldwide scopemaker cartel has struck again, fixed the prices and is ripping everybody off. And of course some people who don't know jack shit about what goes into making a scope know this for a fact.
whistle.gif


Seriously though, here are some of the main points. In a FFP scope the placement of the reticle makes it compete with adjustment range and FOV on low power, so you have a three-way tradeoff dilemma. Maximizing all three desirable factors is a major design challenge, which equals higher cost for engineering.
Furthermore, the reticle itself has to be much smaller than in a SFP scope, by a factor of 3-5x, depending on the zoom ratio. Many of the highend FFP scopes have reticles that approach the limit of what is technologically possible today and only very few companies are able to supply these fine structures with consistently high quality. If you know what to look for, you will find that lesser quality FFP scopes tend to show imperfections in the reticle or use comparably coarse structures to start with. Working at the limit of what is technically possible is always expensive.
Another factor is cleanliness during assembly. Any dust particles on the reticle will appear 3-5x bigger in a FFP scope compared to a SFP scpope, again depending on zoom factor. To make matters worse, the FFP reticle is exposed to a much bigger part of the interior of the scope, making contamination with any free-floating microscopic piece of crap inside the scope more likely. Tighter specifications for cleaneliness cost money because of the necessary technical precautions and skill of the workers assembling the scope.
Another factor that adds to the perception that FFP scopes are significantly more expensive is that as serious tools for a serious job, they tend to be of overall better quality, which just coincides with them being FFP because of what they are designed to do. They are a "specialty item" when comparing market shares, and anything that is made in smaller quantities is more expensive relatively due to the economy of scale.
The list isn't complete, but these are the main points I can think of off the top of my head.

So overall, making a FFP scope with low zoom factor, mediocre adjustment range, lots of tunneling and a fat and dirty reticle shouldn't cost more than making an average SFP scope, but since nobody wants really crappy FFP scopes, they tend to cost more.
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

THANK YOU!!! That makes sense!!(after the 3rd read)
smile.gif
I just get curious about how things work, or how a process works. I figured there was an engineering/process that made a FFP more, I just wanted to know what it was.

Thanks!


-G45
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah right, the worldwide scopemaker cartel has struck again, fixed the prices and is ripping everybody off. And of course some people who don't know jack shit about what goes into making a scope know this for a fact.
whistle.gif


...since nobody wants really crappy FFP scopes, they tend to cost more. </div></div>

WTF, who said anything about scopemaker cartels and ripping people off? Nobody wants a crappy FFP scope like you said and a lot people do want FFP. You're telling me that there isn't a bit of mark up because of the low production and a decent demand for quality FFP scopes? The extra cost of the scope is 100% because of manufacturing processes? Sure.
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

Hi Dave,
In your 3rd paragraph didn't you mean the reticle is smaller in a FFP scope? Not a SFP as you have stated. Otherwise that is a very good explanation why FFP is more expensive. It has nothing to do with companies taking advantage of the customer.

In short it just takes a whole lot more to engineer and build a FFP scope than a SFP scope. The reticle being in front of the erector system presents a whole other set of problems.

This is why some companies can still change SFP reticles, remove the ocular and the reticle is right there, in a FFP once the ocular is removed the whole erector must then be taken from the scope, springs, LED band if illuminated, ect must come totally out of the scope and to keep it clean while reassembling can be a nightmare.

Paul
 
Re: What makes an FFP more costly than SFP?

Great info on that. I watched a show on cable awhile back about making Zeiss scopes in their factory and it was amazing at how much went into building their scopes. The steril enviroment in which they put them together and the quality of material and the steps they go through is what makes them worth every penny.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah right, the worldwide scopemaker cartel has struck again, fixed the prices and is ripping everybody off. And of course some people who don't know jack shit about what goes into making a scope know this for a fact.
whistle.gif


Seriously though, here are some of the main points. In a FFP scope the placement of the reticle makes it compete with adjustment range and FOV on low power, so you have a three-way tradeoff dilemma. Maximizing all three desirable factors is a major design challenge, which equals higher cost for engineering.
Furthermore, the reticle itself has to be much smaller than in a SFP scope, by a factor of 3-5x, depending on the zoom ratio. Many of the highend FFP scopes have reticles that approach the limit of what is technologically possible today and only very few companies are able to supply these fine structures with consistently high quality. If you know what to look for, you will find that lesser quality FFP scopes tend to show imperfections in the reticle or use comparably coarse structures to start with. Working at the limit of what is technically possible is always expensive.
Another factor is cleanliness during assembly. Any dust particles on the reticle will appear 3-5x bigger in a FFP scope compared to a SFP scpope, again depending on zoom factor. To make matters worse, the FFP reticle is exposed to a much bigger part of the interior of the scope, making contamination with any free-floating microscopic piece of crap inside the scope more likely. Tighter specifications for cleaneliness cost money because of the necessary technical precautions and skill of the workers assembling the scope.
Another factor that adds to the perception that FFP scopes are significantly more expensive is that as serious tools for a serious job, they tend to be of overall better quality, which just coincides with them being FFP because of what they are designed to do. They are a "specialty item" when comparing market shares, and anything that is made in smaller quantities is more expensive relatively due to the economy of scale.
The list isn't complete, but these are the main points I can think of off the top of my head.

So overall, making a FFP scope with low zoom factor, mediocre adjustment range, lots of tunneling and a fat and dirty reticle shouldn't cost more than making an average SFP scope, but since nobody wants really crappy FFP scopes, they tend to cost more. </div></div>