If one of these come on the market, you will see Buffalo Winter and I in a cage match over who gets it first...
Sirhr
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Whats the most powerful round I can put in an AR-10 build?
- Thread starter MoHobbyPlinker
- Start date
Sirhr
I thought a SR25 14 inch .375 Raptor with 260 Grain Accubonds would be great.
235-260 Heavy Tungsten loads would be great to shoot stuff with. Would Penetrate like M33 Ball. Full auto with a giant brake and bull barrel profile.
Or 4000 fps with .500 b.c. Light rounds.
Would woodchuck 150 lb deer if stabilized.
235-260 Heavy Tungsten loads would be great to shoot stuff with. Would Penetrate like M33 Ball. Full auto with a giant brake and bull barrel profile.
Or 4000 fps with .500 b.c. Light rounds.
Would woodchuck 150 lb deer if stabilized.
There was a a company that made semi auto .338 LMs. Be if their offerings was a .338 LM shortened and modified to shoot a 900ish grain .510 bullet subsonic. Can’t remember the name of the company but that would be an interesting platform.
The large AR Market is cool.
I'd like to see a slightly elongated AR10 Lower.
Put in .998 b.c. .338-.375 WSMs in there.
Slightly wider AR10 mags. 20rounds.
Options to put in Raufoss Bullets.
2 km transonic 8-9lb AR10s would be great.
You have a physically longer AR10 Lower.
Upsized 20 Round mags to take .338-.375 WSM's or a Slightly thinner (1mm) 65,000 psi
Casing. Something in between .308 and .300 WSM casing. Not much out there like that.
Load in super high b.c. .338's-.375's. that weigh like 160-250 grains. (Aluminum filled lathed copper). Blackwater makes these in Italy.
Load them long OAL.
Carbon fiber Bull Barrel. 12.5-16".
Go for high velocities. 3200-3400 fps.
Should work.
Have you done it?
Please do the math for me on this. Remember the magazine overall length is 2.85 inches at max. (depending on the manufacturer) And we’re going to shoot 2 km out of this?
Where does this AR10 lower and upper combination come from?
No.
The SR25 magazine would have to be lengthened. Same with the AR10 magwell.
Don't have to get to 2kms. But you can lay hate down and suppression at 2kms easy on FA or SA. Could go transonic at 2000-3000 yards depending on specs.
AR10 lower could come out of any shop.
Uppers need not much change.
Steel or CF Bull barrels chambered in .33-37 WSM or the like.
Your specs so far are:
338wsm to 375 wsm
Standard AR10 upper/lower
12.5”-16” barrel
160-250 grain bullets
3200-3400 fps (out of a 12.5” to 16” barrel?)
Transonic to 2000-3000 yards
What are the load specs for this round?
Powder type/ weight…COAL….?
How are we doing this now?
Thanks
Simple. Barely an inconvenience. Just design a new upper, and bolt carrier group, and lower, and magazine.
Open up the bolt face on an SR25 0.5mm since she's overbuilt to accommodate a casing that is 1mm wider then .308 and 1mm slimmer then a WSM.
I don't know jack shit about powder. Jack....shit.
Able to learn.
Upper can be an elongated SR25 with .338 WSM
4 inch COAL.
So 140-160 grain .338 Flat Line 256gr profile @ .862 b.c. with a below max charge of XYZ @ 3100 FPS @ 16 inch barrel.
65,000 psi max.
Am I on Crack or what? Is this even "possible".
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So it’s a single shot upper?
Do we have to remove the charging handle and BCG to load it?
What’s the reamer free bore spec?
I guess those long bullets will hit the CH when entering chamber from Mag.
Would they? They would be fine on a belt fed like the MG338. .338 NM are too big for an AR10.
Don't know about reamer free bore specs yet.
A 150 grain 250 grain SMK profile .338 with a far lower COAL would be easier to put in...but at the sacrifice to b.c.
Isn't there an AR10 upper around that doesn't go to a stupid size and isn't the Sig Sauer M5 in .277 Fury.
There has to be a way to beat the M5 in .277 Fury without Hybrid casings.
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308 P-mag next to a mocked up 338 WSM case, with a Lehigh 338 257 grain … 3.63” COAL, that’s with the bullet barely sitting in the mouth of the case
Next is a piece of WSM brass backed up to 375 WSM, with a .375 353 Lehigh barely sitting in the case mouth 3.94" COAL
On the right is a 300 RUM with a 215 in it.
I’m pretty sure a 4.0” COAL is not going to work in a AR10
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View attachment 8106148
308 P-mag next to a mocked up 338 WSM case, with a Lehigh 338 257 grain … 3.63” COAL, that’s with the bullet barely sitting in the mouth of the case
Next is a piece of WSM brass backed up to 375 WSM, with a .375 353 Lehigh barely sitting in the case mouth 3.94" COAL
On the right is a 300 RUM with a 215 in it.
I’m pretty sure a 4.0” COAL is not going to work in a AR10
After much internal struggle and external advice....I think I have created a monsterous weapon system concept.
A .338 RCM with a 250 gr Berger Elite external profile 130 gr bullet. (.685 b.c.)
A healthy charge of H4895 should do.
COAL is 2.87. Mag capacity is 18+1
Velocity is 3300fps. Transonic out to 2000 yards.
Upper is a KAC in .338 RCM with a 18 inch dimple bull barrel or CF. Twist rate unknown. Gas port size unknown.
Lower is a stock KAC. Buffer weight is unknown.
highbclowgr…
OK I’ve got to ask. …
Since your abbreviated forum name is …high ballistic coefficient low grain…are you selling these bullets?
and who makes a 130 grain bullet with the same ballistic coefficient, and bullet profile, as a 250 grain berger 338?
You’ve been on this forum for less than one week, and you’ve mentioned this type of bullet, in nearly every post and thread that you have been in.
OK I’ve got to ask. …
Since your abbreviated forum name is …high ballistic coefficient low grain…are you selling these bullets?
and who makes a 130 grain bullet with the same ballistic coefficient, and bullet profile, as a 250 grain berger 338?
You’ve been on this forum for less than one week, and you’ve mentioned this type of bullet, in nearly every post and thread that you have been in.
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I am phishing for information based on these designs.
WW2 and beyond, (Ludwig Vorgrimler) thought
7.92x40 was a great idea. High B.C. and low grain bullets. The Americans obviously trumped this idea in favor of 7.62x51.
If you apply this concept to modern loadings, you get really great ballistics, albeit at the slight sacrifice of sectional density.
You get insane drop charts and velocities that make 6.5 Creedmore look obsolete by comparison.
Badland Precision is into this concept.
Blackwater was into this concept with high psi casings. Hard to find specs with them.
Not many bullet manufacturers out there doing this. I have been scouring the internet and there is very little to go off of.
Again. Not a radical idea, but the results can be amazing. In theory.
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Come on man...
You're phishing for info...?
No, you're posting worthless, and borderline dangerous info in this thread.
Badlands is doing something that is feasible with their bullets...The same as Lehigh and Cutting Edge
you're posting that a .338 130 grain bullet can have same BC and bullet profile as a .338 250 Berger? What's the SD of this bullet?
An ant's fart would blow that bullet a "mile" off target at 2000 yards
One thing i have to say...it's been seriously entertaining reading your posts.
Let's get this thread back on track...please
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Please post some video for posterity when you show us how to push super high bc 338 bullets to 3400 fps from an AR10 platform. Pressures would be way above 65000 psi. That or all of us retards are doing it wrong running long action magnum boltface rifles trying to push our 300 gr bullets to 2850 fps.
Okay I'm not looking for a fight I'm looking for practical advice.
Let's take a .308 inch .399 b.c. 147 gr FMJ @ 2750 fps.
Let's take a .338 inch .682 b.c. 130 gr ATIP @ 3100 fps. Badlands could EASILY develop this bullet.
My idea is 3100 FPS. That's not really dangerous for a .338 RCM is it? 60,000-62,000 psi is normal for .338 RCM.
Sure take it down to 55,000-59,000psi. .338 RCM can go there. So can an AR10.
Surely it has less wind drift at 200, 600, 1200, and 2000 meters then the 147gr M80 ball?
Is this really....dangerous? Seems smart to me.
Less time to target. Less lead time on movers. Lower weight then 147gr Creedmore.
Better on a drop chart.
Far greater terminal affect.
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Here's a couple of questions for you...
Are you a fairly young engineer of some sort?...
Or are you a member of the Gravy SEALs, Meal Team Six?
I am a hobbyist Open Source Intelligence Technician and I develop weapons programs for myself to use in video games to beat others with.
I have had the opportunity to absolutely destroy Police and Military in 3 gun matches back when I was fast and light and they were fat and old.
But now I just game.
Attachments
OK… I’ll play along…
Here’s where you are going wrong
The typical AR10 mag has a max COAL of ~ 2.8”
That greatly limits the High BC bullets you want to use in the 338 RCM or 338 WSM
The seating depth of these long high BC bullets, seats the bullets WAY too deep into the case.
Which in turn eats up, or decreases the amount of powder, that you can fit into the case…
So then in turn the less powder the slower the velocity.
The “light” (130 grain) version of the 338 250 Berger you want to produce, will not fit into a 338 RCM/WSM case, while fitting into a AR10/LR308 magazine…
The bearing surface of the longer 250 Berger has to get pushed so far into the case to fit the mag…that the bearing surface no longer even touches the case neck…
The 250 Berger literally falls into the case, when you try to seat it to 2.8” (uh…I’ve tried it)
I’m giving you an A+ for curiousity…(seriously)
But you need to break out the micrometer, and have a little more knowledge of mag length limits, powders and reloading before you venture out into the AR10 world on SH…
Here’s where you are going wrong
The typical AR10 mag has a max COAL of ~ 2.8”
That greatly limits the High BC bullets you want to use in the 338 RCM or 338 WSM
The seating depth of these long high BC bullets, seats the bullets WAY too deep into the case.
Which in turn eats up, or decreases the amount of powder, that you can fit into the case…
So then in turn the less powder the slower the velocity.
The “light” (130 grain) version of the 338 250 Berger you want to produce, will not fit into a 338 RCM/WSM case, while fitting into a AR10/LR308 magazine…
The bearing surface of the longer 250 Berger has to get pushed so far into the case to fit the mag…that the bearing surface no longer even touches the case neck…
The 250 Berger literally falls into the case, when you try to seat it to 2.8” (uh…I’ve tried it)
I’m giving you an A+ for curiousity…(seriously)
But you need to break out the micrometer, and have a little more knowledge of mag length limits, powders and reloading before you venture out into the AR10 world on SH…
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So then..you could use a slightly shorter and fatter casing then even the RSAUM or WSM to accommodate what you just said with the bearing surface. A 300 grain Accubond profile could work. Lots of bearing surface...maybe too much. A single stack mag instead of double stack or use a drum mag to get 25 rounds into the thing. That's kind of lame though.
Short and fat.
How about this...
Who here can come up with an AR10 load that goes transonic in between 2000 and 3000 yards. That's the criteria.
You guys are smart. That's why I came here.
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Incorrect answer my friend.
.375 Bishop necked down & trimmed down and take the shoulders down 1 cm and put in a 130gr ATIP 300 grain Accubond .338 profile. (.720 b.c)
Velocity will be insane. PSI will be low.
Use XS X10 Drum mags for capacity and go full trans @ 2000-3000yards in an 18 inch barrel.
I finally figured it out. After all these days.
[SHOT 2022] New .375 Bishop Short Magnum Cartridge
Bishop Ammunition & Firearms has unveiled another big-bore cartridge created by necking down the .475 BSM. Meet the .375 Bishop Short Magnum.
www.thefirearmblog.com
You’re still not dealing with magazine length or bearing surface for a high bc bullet…. To get to your velocity requirement your bullet will have to be light-and what light bullet in those calibers has a high enough bc to be accurate at 2k yards?
Will the bullet fly past a mile? Yes but can you hit the broad side of a barn with it at that distance? Not to mention the energy levels would be very anemic.
Until something new comes along, pressure = velocity and velocity is a prime component in your bc. Unfortunately there’s just no free lunch when it comes to elr performance with existing components.
Will the bullet fly past a mile? Yes but can you hit the broad side of a barn with it at that distance? Not to mention the energy levels would be very anemic.
Until something new comes along, pressure = velocity and velocity is a prime component in your bc. Unfortunately there’s just no free lunch when it comes to elr performance with existing components.
Here is the problem, you don't appear to actually have any real world experience with what you are trying to do.
Video game software and weapons mods for video games and such is a laughable idea as a basis for longer range shooting practice.
3 Gun matches? Sorry that's about as far from long distance shooting as you can get, that's all about up close and fast.
If you actually want to have anyone take you remotely seriously, first go build yourself a .338LM bolt action rifle (since you are stuck on .338 diameter) or buy a good one.
Then go start using it and go to 1000 yards, then a mile, then 2000 yards, then 2500 yards and then if you can hack it 3000 yards.
Experiment with all the bullets and loads you want.
When you can repeatedly and confidently put most of your rounds on a reasonable sized target at 2000+ with ammo that you loaded and tuned for your gun, then you could come back and revisit your crazy AR-10 frame idea and understand why nobody does it the way you imagine it should be done.
You'll also understand why all your theoretical calculations you think should be superb absolutely fall flat on their faces in the real world.
Gotcha. I figured that it would not be accurate at 2000-3000 yards.
However; the "concept" is essentially a machine gun round or assualt rifle round. Not a precision rifle round.
If you could get 1 moa or under with 1200m. Great.
However; the "concept" is essentially a machine gun round or assualt rifle round. Not a precision rifle round.
If you could get 1 moa or under with 1200m. Great.
1 moa (at 1500 if I remember) was the criteria for the sniper rifle trials back in 2009.
And that was only the vert as they knew wind is skill not just mechanical accuracy.
Thinking that spec in a semi of sorts…good luck
AR 10 platform is NOT suited to an actual machine gun or even light machine gun work.
Trying to make a machine gun into a precision designated marksman rifle role is going to give you something that is substandard at both the machine gun role and the designated marksman role.
In addition to belt fed machine guns in the standard .223, .308, .50 BMG, there were also systems trialed in .338 / .300 NM
For a semi-auto designated marksman rifle to hit out to 1200 yards, an AR-10 in a 6.5CM or similar will do the job without being crazy.
But for any longer stuff or dedicated target stuff, it makes way more sense to have someone with a proper bolt action rifle shooting something bigger than can fit in an AR10 and where the rifle is more likely to be more accurate than a semi-platform can easily achieve at distance / energy.
Military use is usually a team not some crazy lone operator, team members have things needed to cover the likely different variables in the operation.
For an "assault rifle" you need light, compact, effective fire and effective control at closer ranges.
.308 was considered too much weight / recoil for that role, and everybody is trying to find a sweet spot in between .223 and .308 as the new Goldilocks assault rifle.
What you see a lot of in the "cool" things is folks trying different crazy new ideas on how to make an AR-15 or AR-10 platform have a lot more close range knock down or punch through power. None of those are built for extended ranges.
Yes. Well the Dutch SF use HBAR F/A 5.56mm ARs. Works okay. Original AR10 was a select Fire infantry weapon. Not a DMR.
Could you do a F/A Bull Barrel AR10? Probably.
At the end of the day, a 175GMM SR25 is great for 0-600m rapid engagement.
Is it perfect for guys sprinting across alley ways @ 500m? No. 2500-2600 FPS is slow.
That's where MG's come in.
Would a 3200 FPS SR25 be useful? Yes and no.
Need more? Grab .338 Lapua 300gr SMK.
Need more? Grab a 750gr AMAX .50.
Many Billions of combinations for the AR family.
Yes. Well the Dutch SF use HBAR F/A 5.56mm ARs. Works okay. Original AR10 was a select Fire infantry weapon. Not a DMR.
Could you do a F/A Bull Barrel AR10? Probably.
At the end of the day, a 175GMM SR25 is great for 0-600m rapid engagement.
Is it perfect for guys sprinting across alley ways @ 500m? No. 2500-2600 FPS is slow.
That's where MG's come in.
Would a 3200 FPS SR25 be useful? Yes and no.
Need more? Grab .338 Lapua 300gr SMK.
Need more? Grab a 750gr AMAX .50.
Many Billions of combinations for the AR family.
The main purpose of a Machine gun is to deliver a high volume of projectiles to the aimed area in a short time frame.
Generally heavier, generally belt fed, generally have things like quick change barrels and bipods, usually fired resting on some surface.
Yes many / most "assault rifles" are select fire, you want them to be because if you suddenly find yourself needing to spray as much lead in front of you as possible to save your life, you want that option, in bursts it also increases your hit potential over a single round.
Have you ever fired a standard weight rifle in Full Auto before? The have you ever tried the same thing with a .308 standard rifle like an M14 or HK G3?
Most of the rest of your comments seem to say you your entire frame of reference is video games.
Get out of the house and go do some shooting of the stuff you are specifically thinking about.
You'll probably find real life is completely different than your video games.
Trying to be respectful here and still address your comments. It appears that you are reading ballistic charts and reloading data but aren't grasping the inherent weakness of the AR10 design for what you are trying to brainstorm. What you can do with a full auto AR15 means nothing when discussing trying to make a full auto AR10. Certainly you could make it run full auto with the correct knowledge and parts but the platform was never DESIGNED for that use, whereas the M16 design was full auto from the start. What military uses ANY form of an AR10 with full auto capabilities? None that I'm aware of - and I'm not an expert so there could be something out there... But the newest greatest NGSW from SIG isn't based on an AR design and the of M60 wasn't either.Yes. Well the Dutch SF use HBAR F/A 5.56mm ARs. Works okay. Original AR10 was a select Fire infantry weapon. Not a DMR.
Could you do a F/A Bull Barrel AR10? Probably.
At the end of the day, a 175GMM SR25 is great for 0-600m rapid engagement.
Is it perfect for guys sprinting across alley ways @ 500m? No. 2500-2600 FPS is slow.
That's where MG's come in.
Would a 3200 FPS SR25 be useful? Yes and no.
Need more? Grab .338 Lapua 300gr SMK.
Need more? Grab a 750gr AMAX .50.
Many Billions of combinations for the AR family.
With the current plethora of AR capable cartridges if it were possible it would have been done by now. I recommend you do some research on the AR10 design and current cartridges/wildcats that exist and this will give you some insight into real world capabilities.
338LM, yes its great but you're not gonna cram any performance into an AR10 package and they do make an upper that goes onto standard AR15 lowers for 50 cal but now your full semi automatic bolt action.
ETA: For what its worth this is cutting edge 375 stuff they are trying to slam into 338 LM rifles.
I have shot full auto lots.. easier when you are giant like me. An AR10 prone with a heavily loaded bipod is totally doable.
Tying it off to tree with a sling works great. Doesn't move. Digging handstops or foregrips into wood with body weight works great.
My favorite full auto is a KAC SR15 with a Triple Tap Brake. 600 RPM. You can snipe with that on prone on auto.
SR25 would be harder suppressed. Easy as hell with a MAMS Brake.
If you burn out the barrel. You can put on a new upper.
Trying to be respectful here and still address your comments. It appears that you are reading ballistic charts and reloading data but aren't grasping the inherent weakness of the AR10 design for what you are trying to brainstorm. What you can do with a full auto AR15 means nothing when discussing trying to make a full auto AR10. Certainly you could make it run full auto with the correct knowledge and parts but the platform was never DESIGNED for that use, whereas the M16 design was full auto from the start. What military uses ANY form of an AR10 with full auto capabilities? None that I'm aware of - and I'm not an expert so there could be something out there... But the newest greatest NGSW from SIG isn't based on an AR design and the of M60 wasn't either.
With the current plethora of AR capable cartridges if it were possible it would have been done by now. I recommend you do some research on the AR10 design and current cartridges/wildcats that exist and this will give you some insight into real world capabilities.
338LM, yes its great but you're not gonna cram any performance into an AR10 package and they do make an upper that goes onto standard AR15 lowers for 50 cal but now your full semi automatic bolt action.
ETA: For what its worth this is cutting edge 375 stuff they are trying to slam into 338 LM rifles.
Lots of military and conflicts have seen the Original AR10.
Canadian Airborne used to convert their FALs
to full auto. Brits switched out L1A1 for Argentine Full Auto models in Falklands.
If you are large and in charge you can handle one properly. Especially now with 6.5 Creedmore SR25s.
Better to have select fire then not.
The Ruag Swiss A.P. load in .375 Swiss is awesome. You can take out APC drivers with it and destroy Level 4 vests out past 400m.
Great round. Not as heavy as. 50.
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I know you all can take out multiple wide AR500 plates stacked 10 deep at 300 meters with an auto SR25 in 6.5 Creedmore or .308 Win in A.P. loadings.
If you can't. Then I teach you.
If you can't. Then I teach you.
Incorrect answer my friend.
.375 Bishop necked down & trimmed down and take the shoulders down 1 cm and put in a 130gr ATIP 300 grain Accubond .338 profile. (.720 b.c)
Velocity will be insane. PSI will be low.
Use XS X10 Drum mags for capacity and go full trans @ 2000-3000yards in an 18 inch barrel.
I finally figured it out. After all these days.
[SHOT 2022] New .375 Bishop Short Magnum Cartridge
Bishop Ammunition & Firearms has unveiled another big-bore cartridge created by necking down the .475 BSM. Meet the .375 Bishop Short Magnum.
The 300 Accubond has a G7 BC of .394, with a sectional density of .375. That gives you a form factor of 0.95 G7. A 130 grain .338 bullet of that form factor will give you a G7 BC of .171. You need a muzzle velocity of around 10,000 fps to reach that range with that bullet.
You’re kind of all over the place here…
What AR10 was fielded with as full auto?
The FAL is a great rifle but it’s not an AR platform. Yes there are other similar platforms but are we speaking about any platform or the AR10?
Considering we are on a precision rifle forum we tend to bias towards that type of use and consideration, not so much towards machine gun utilization.
