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PRS Talk Whats the popular caliber these days?
- Thread starter Smokerroller
- Start date
Check out .284 Shehane becoming very popular,recent 5 shot group 0.191 at 100 yards ,new world record 5 shot 100 yard group.0077 caliber.30 Stewart,and new 100O yard record 5 shot group 1.068 inches or 0.102 MOA all shots in X ring,set by Mike Wilson: caliber: 6mm BRAW [Ackley Wilson]
Curious as to why not, PRS introduced 3 new divisions Open, Tactical and Production all shoot the same course,Open : Able to use a rifle chambered in any cartridge 30 caliber or less not to exceed 3200 fps.
I figured I’d test out the 6mm vs 6.5mm myself. A few years back I build a custom 260. Rem on a Stiller TAC 30 throwing the 140hybrids roughly around 2730fps. There’s another node that I’m going to start looking more into at around 2850 FPs mark. As of today parts are going into the smith for a 6mm creedmoor build on a kelbly atlas tac. I’m hoping to be throwing the 105’s at 3100+ FPS
I started off with 6.5 CM and have a 6XC barrel on the way. I have never felt like 6.5 CM limited me in any way, and I'll always keep a 6.5 CM barrel handy (I have the luxury of a quick change barrel). However, the lower recoil of the 6mm definitely has its advantages. Yeah you can mitigate recoil with perfect alignment and fundamentals, but there are stressors in PRS that make that difficult at best. I'm also saving money shooting 115 DTACs vs 130 and 140 Bergers.
Try and get behind a few buddies guns before you make any decisions. Messing with a buddies 6 Dasher helped me see the benefit, but I didn't want to fireform and put rounds on a barrel just to get brass. Alpha now makes SRP 6XC brass, so I went that direction as I already had a stockpile of H4350 and CCI 450's. Considering what components you already have may help as well.
Try and get behind a few buddies guns before you make any decisions. Messing with a buddies 6 Dasher helped me see the benefit, but I didn't want to fireform and put rounds on a barrel just to get brass. Alpha now makes SRP 6XC brass, so I went that direction as I already had a stockpile of H4350 and CCI 450's. Considering what components you already have may help as well.
Another 6 Creed (and sometimes 6.5 SAUM) shooter here, and I'll add another vote to the 'pick one and stick with it' concept.
the hot caliber is which ever one takes hold enough so the big ammo guys start producing quality loads.
my need for latest and greatest is being outweighed by the limited time i have to reload as the family grows up.
with that, i started shooting the 6br several years ago in my AI's (excellent factory ammo and simple to reload it you want).
i dont think im putting that one away so fast.
just dont try to make a cartridge do something thats outside it envelope, thats where the chasing really starts.
my need for latest and greatest is being outweighed by the limited time i have to reload as the family grows up.
with that, i started shooting the 6br several years ago in my AI's (excellent factory ammo and simple to reload it you want).
i dont think im putting that one away so fast.
just dont try to make a cartridge do something thats outside it envelope, thats where the chasing really starts.
Well, the final word is in... cool kids are shooting Dasher.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/14/rifle-caliber/
This year. The caliber chasers will move on soon enough when the next best thing is discovered. Lol
Exactly. I'm already starting to see a shift away from the BR/BRA/Dasher with more people either going yet smaller (22BRs) and others going to 6 Creedmoor or 6XC due to more brass options being available for both. I think some people have gotten frustrated with the brass for the BRs (namely cost and availability), while others are still chasing some kind of unicorn down the low recoil, low energy rabbit hole.
I wonder if we start to see a shift towards 6.5mm or .308 only matches over the coming 24-months. Many are chasing the latest and greatest only to find everyone else doing the same and consequently their rankings or placings in matches aren’t taking the upward leap they were expecting for faster, flatter and shorter barrel life. The real test of skill isn’t to choose the best calibre, it’s to win with a less efficient calibre where fundamentals are more important - where the calibre isn’t the defining factor in a shooters rank but instead their fundamental ability is.
Everyone is spending a fortune on new barrels, new brass, new dies etc but everyone can’t improve equally. Fundamentals are key and good shooters will always prevail.
Perhaps we will see a move back to 6.5 and .308 only matches as competitors want to see who is really the best. Formula 1 with all drivers running the same machines if you like.
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Brass was an issue earlier this year in the spring, but I've never seen it out of stock since about June. Lapua BR brass is also a fair bit cheaper than Lapua/Norma/Alpha 6Creed/6XC brass ($89/100 ish instead of $100+).
I'm expecting another shortage of Lapua brass for BR in the near future as people start to get ready for spring shooting season. Also consider the time and costs involved with fireforming for Dasher and BRA. There's ways to do it without live fire (or using live fire as practice while fireforming), which isn't required for 6 Creed/XC/Etc.
I’m finding it amusing that after endless years of ‘ tactical ‘ style shooters giving shit to benchrest
and F class / sling shooters , that the PRS cartridge of choice is now the humble 6mmbr and variants .
Guess some folks take a while to catch on to things : ) .
and F class / sling shooters , that the PRS cartridge of choice is now the humble 6mmbr and variants .
Guess some folks take a while to catch on to things : ) .
Fireforming is something everyone does before they shoot a match regardless of what caliber they're shooting. Generally speaking nobody in PRS wants to use virgin brass for a match because by the time the match rolls around you won't have enough virgin brass left over for the entire match (and mixing fired and unfired brass in your match ammo is a big no).
Most shooters in PRS, when switching to a new caliber, order 300-400 pieces of brass because it's enough for any match with some wiggle room for lost brass (and nobody wants to buy way more than they need because it's expensive). Let's do the math on how much brass they'll have left unfired by the time the next match comes up:
300 initial pieces
~100 rounds for barrel break-in and to let the barrel finish speeding up (200 pieces left)
~25-50 rounds of load development (150-175 pieces left)
This doesn't factor in any practice before a match, etc. which can be done using fireforming loads without any issues. By the time the match rolls around the shooter is likely to have more fired brass than unfired brass anyways.
Another thing I wanted to address, since it was in your previous comment:
People are not shifting away from BR/BRA/Dasher. In fact, the data shows just the opposite.
In 2016 there were 8 shooters of the top 100 in the PRS using BR-based cartridges (8%, http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/02/16/long-range-calibers-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/)
In 2018 there were 83 shooters out of 175 total (top 125 PRS, top 50 NRL) using BR-based cartridges (47.4%, http://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/14/rifle-caliber/). This included 2 shooters that chose to use 22BR, 9 using 6BR, 11 using 6BRX, 14 using 6BR/6 Comet, and a whopping 47 shooting 6Dasher (second most popular was 6mm Creedmoor with only 35 shooters).
The 6mm caliber BR-based cartridges make up an overwhelming majority of what people are shooting currently, and since the 2016 season went from 8% representation to being nearly 50% of the top shooters out there. Some are moving to 22 caliber cartridges, but some are also moving from 6.5's to BR cartridges or from hot 6's to BR based cartridges. Now that many of the issues with feeding them from magazines have been mitigated and components/load data are more readily available it's becoming more and more common for additional shooters to jump on the bandwagon (I did it myself earlier this year, I shoot a straight BR now).
I’m using .260 rem mostly. I also have a 300NM for extended ranges. 73mm SPG-9 for everything else.
A couple points - I've personally rolled into a match more than once with ammo loaded on virgin brass. Everyone shooting factory ammo is the same. Last I talked to Bryan Morgan about it, he ONLY shot virgin brass at matches, and saved all his once fired stuff for practice. I also do all of my barrel break in using brass from the previous season, and the same for load development. I will do a final confirmation on virgin brass before my first match, but that's all I do. I will caveat that by saying I have been shooting the same caliber for years, so I have a pile of brass laying around, and just buy a batch at the beginning of the season to cover that year. At the end of the season, that brass goes in the practice brass bucket.
And I have already seen several of my friends that ran BR/BRA/Dasher in 2018 switching calibers, which is what my statement is based on. A few of them are the same people that were early adopters of the BR family in the PRS. Some have grown tired of magazine issues, others decided they'd rather have the increased performance of the XC and Creedmoor cases.
Loading ammo for a match on virgin brass isn't an issue. I've shot multiple matches this year on entirely virgin brass (several club matches and a national match). The issue arises when you load ammo for the same match using both virgin and fireformed brass. The dimensions for the fireformed brass vs the virgin brass will be different and shooting the two mixed together at the same match will provide inconsistent results compared to shooting just virgin brass or just fireformed brass.
For the first matches I loaded with virgin brass it was a non-issue. I had 500 pieces of Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor and a barrel that had already sped up and had velocities settle. I shot in 4 club matches with all virgin brass, using the other 100 pieces for load development with various bullets.
For the national match that I shot with virgin brass I had problems. I'd just built my 6BR and had bought 300 pieces of Lapua brass. The match ended up requiring 200 rounds and I used 52 for zero/re-zero/re-chronoing, having only shot 41 rounds prior to the match (loaded the remaining 259 pieces of brass to bring to the match). I had issues that weekend because my barrel sped up by nearly 75 fps from initially chronoing it Friday afternoon to the end of the day Saturday, which required me to re-zero and re-chrono the ammo. On Sunday it sped up by about 10 fps from the end of Saturday to my check at the end of Sunday and it's stayed put since.
Most people buy 300 pieces of brass for their barrels (some buy new for each barrel, some keep using brass until it's finished), and with 300 pieces you can't stabilize the speed of your barrel, do load development, AND have enough pieces of virgin brass leftover for a 2-day match. If you buy 400 pieces or more it's not an issue since you can usually get at least 150 down the tube to stabilize your speeds and have 250 for the match itself. Most of the guys in my area, however, only buy $300 because brass isn't cheap regardless of what caliber you shoot (assuming you're using good quality brass).
This is just a function really of who we both shoot with. Among those in my area none have moved away from a 6BR variant in 2018 (except to switch to a different variant), while I know of at least 2 guys who switched from a 6.5 or hotter 6 down to a BR variant. It's interesting to me to see how different areas have different trends, and it would be interesting if people asked around with local shooters and recorded what calibers people in their area shot last year, this year, and what they plan to shoot next year. It would provide a little more granularity to the available data, anyways, and I'll see if I can't do just that at a local casual warm-up club match on January 12th.
My answer to that is they need to buy more brass. I've bought 300 per season myself, but I have always had a pile of 6 Creedmoor brass (even on my first barrel, I got a bunch of hand me down brass from friends) laying around for testing and barrel break in. That said, I'm actually going to buy 500 for the coming season since I am going to have a busy spring schedule.
You're 100% correct about not mixing fired and virgin, though. Once or twice I have screwed up my timing and had to go out a week or two before a match and burn through an extra 50-100 rounds of ammo just to get all of my brass on the same number of firings before a match.
Yeah, it can definitely be a regional thing. Some of it is also who the perennial 'first to try something different' people are, and then who is more likely to follow what they see other successful shooters doing. Of the people I know that have either switched or are considering it, I think it's been a pretty equal mix of being tired of mag issues (even with the Dasher kits, I see a decent number of problems at matches), wanting to get some more performance/velocity, and tired of fire forming/brass cost.
There’s an idea . Off the rack 308’s provided by GAP, Tac Ops et al and FGM or AB/Berger factory ammo .
Shooter gets to confirm zero and velocity before comp , and adjust rifle / scope to his LOP, cheek height etc.
Sort of like a one make race series like the Carrera cup . That would sort the salt from the cheese , and give
good oxygen to a few manufacturers .
While it's an interesting idea, a lot of shooters are going to be turned off by being forced to run an unfamiliar rifle, optic, and ammo. If you were able to provide the rifle and ammo ahead of time for them to train on, then provided ammo at the match itself, you might be able to draw in more people. Also consider the costs involved - even if you limited such an event to 50 shooters (make it invite only from the PRS and NRL top ranked shooters or something), that's 50 rifles, optics, sets of rings, 50x matches of ammo, etc - a LOT of expense to be laid out by sponsors. Even if you raise the match fee to help compensate the sponsors, now you have the issue of having an unusually high match fee where shooters aren't even using their personal equipment.
While it would be interesting to see, I think you'd have a hard time getting participation from shooters and sponsors.
Yeah was thinking more of a class only rather than entire competition . Or a Top Shot kind of deal : a few invited
shooters , maybe 10 or so past winners etc. Film and edit it right , and get it on a sports channel .
Been done before. So has use the same ammo for all shooters. More of a mess than anything and proved nothing.
Across the course sling shooters pioneered all these 6.5 and 6 mm cartridges LONG before any "tactical" or "precision" shooting sport came along.
Both trends were started by David Tubb on his way to winning something like 15 national highpower rifle championships along the way. He started shooting something called the 6.5-08 back in the early 90s and something called 6XC in the late 90s/turn of the century.
6.5 Creedmoor came about something like this:
Dennis DeMille (multiple time national service rifle champion): Hey Dave, can you come up with a cool cartridge that avoids all the pitfalls of the 260 Remington and start with match loads so highpower shooters can just buy off the shelf ammo and be competitive with the reloaders?
Dave Emary (Hornady's chief ballistician): Sure Dennis, here's this new cartridge that smokes everything and you can order from the Browells and Midways of the world. What should we call it?
Dennis: How about 6.5 Creedmoor?
Dave: Perfect
The Europeans were shooting something called the 6.5 Swede in the 1800's. ;-)
Right , go back back to what you wre doing then and don't worry about trying to expand the sport to new markets . And don't worry about recoil management , keep shooting those pissy braked 6mm .
We just had the Commonwealth Games here in Aus , they been using issued ammo , and standardised reamers for a very long time . What it does is eliminate the advantage of higher BC bullets , everyone is on the same page , which was the point of my post .
If you want that then shoot that sport. As I said it has been tried in PRS style matches and it's a pain in the ass for all involved from match directors to shooters. Not worth it.
"Standardized, issued, everybody on the same page" sounds like healthcare to me. No thanks I'll opt out.
I wouldn't walk across the street to shoot a match set up like that.
^^this...I run what I run because I like running it...I don’t want to have to use someone else’s crap that I might not care for one bit
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I have to agree. MAYBE a standard caliber match. But I’m loading the ammo for my gun, optic, etc.
Pretzel, or anyone else that is shooting 6BR or variant...
Is the go-to for 6BR to feed properly a Primal Rights AICS conversion kit? If so, is your experience with AI magazines? If not, what brand?
Saw that PVA also sells a 6BR conversion kit, but doesn't have any in stock? Anyone have experience with theirs?
This will be with a Nucleus action.
Is the go-to for 6BR to feed properly a Primal Rights AICS conversion kit? If so, is your experience with AI magazines? If not, what brand?
Saw that PVA also sells a 6BR conversion kit, but doesn't have any in stock? Anyone have experience with theirs?
This will be with a Nucleus action.
The PVA kits work well, but the Primal Rights ones are the de-facto standard with AICS magazines because they're more readily available than the PVA kit. For AW magazines I prefer the HRD Gear spacer kit since it's machined instead of printed similar to the PVA one.
I've found in my Nucleus action, though, I've had almost the best luck just using an unmodified (no spacer) ARC magazine. I've used them in 2 matches and plenty of practice sessions without any issues thus far.
For standard AICS magazines I use no-binder plate Accurate Mags with a custom kit I'm developing. It's designed to not require an extra spring like all the other kits, you can re-use the original leaf spring from your AICS/Accurate Mag if you remove it from the stock follower (just a pair of rivets that can be replaced with $0.50 of screws and bolts if you remove the spacer later). This should allow for a cheaper overall kit since it's less stuff to ship out (though I've also been testing it with replacement springs).
A 6mm going 200fps faster with a .610+ G1 negates any advantage the 140s have. It's pretty damn close.
Which 6mm bullet has a .610 G1? Also, I've read that the 105 6mm bullets have very little impact at distance which means ROs have to be on their game to spot impacts. I don't know because I don't own any of the 6s in a competition rifle. I've only shot 6.5 and 223 in comps.
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