When Did Moderate Become a Bad Word?

[Choid]

How did he get the nickname Maverick?

By siding with leftys.

Six memorable moments when John McCain earned a reputation as a 'maverick'

The Arizona senator, who died Saturday at 81, was known for working across party lines and speaking his mind.

www.usatoday.com

He got the name because he was a cranky, vindictive shit. He wasn't particularly moderate, he was particularly interested in media coverage, war and avenging what he saw as personal slights. It all started with the Keating 5 thing.

Anyway, lest assume, arguendo, that you are right, and that he was a true moderate who had no real conservative principles. Even worse, let's assume he was Jeff Flake. Now, this is an easy question, because four years ago, those were the two senators from Arizona, but for whom do you think they would have voted for senate majority leader? I can guaran-fucking-tee it it wouldn't have been Chuck Schumer. And without that, a lot of things would look different right now, so even taking your assumptions as fact, having those two, whom I personally despise, would be a lot better than having the two Democrats that represent Arizona now. As I said before, Conservatives reject strategic thinking and pay the price, all the while calling everybody else dumb.

 

[RGStory]

I don't think people who are not net taxpayers should get to vote. The ability to vote money to yourself is what has killed this country. The 24th makes that impossible.

Thanks for the explanation. If I understand correctly, you are advocate for disenfranchisement?

 

[quietmike]

Thanks for the explanation. If I understand correctly, you are advocate for disenfranchisement?

The founders originally limited voting to landowners, ie those with skin in the game.

 

[RGStory]

The founders originally limited voting to landowners, ie those with skin in the game.

I understand. My question is not intended as a critique, I just wanted to confirm that I understood his concern with the amendment.

 

[Choid]

Thanks for the explanation. If I understand correctly, you are advocate for disenfranchisement?

There are two ways to deal with the net taxpayer issue. One is to decrease benefits and have everybody pay some taxes, the other is disenfranchisement. I much prefer the former, but I can live with the latter if need be. I realize this is distinct from the intent of the amendment, but I am talking about it as it is, not as it was.

 

[MadDuner]

A moderate enemy is still an enemy / regardless of which side of the aisle you are viewing it from.

 

[Rthur]

Maybe when blatant evidence has been experienced/witnessed
that compromise has failed/is failing.
Failure to recognize the mentioned is the same path to failure.

R

 

[Fig]

News flash, less than half the country now pays taxes. We are over the brink where the takers outnumber the makers. There is no way to "democratically" fix this.
Countries, therefore, when lawmaking falls exclusively to the lot of the poor cannot hope for much economy in public expenditure; expenses will always be considerable, either because taxes cannot touch those who vote for them or because they are assessed in a way to prevent that.
A democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape the obligation to pay it.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.


Alexis de Tocqueville

 

[RGStory]

There are two ways to deal with the net taxpayer issue. One is to decrease benefits and have everybody pay some taxes, the other is disenfranchisement. I much prefer the former, but I can live with the latter if need be. I realize this is distinct from the intent of the amendment, but I am talking about it as it is, not as it was.

I do not have fully formed opinions on the subject. However, I know that I would sooner enjoy the adoption of everybody paying some taxes and a few other solutions in between prior to disenfranchisement.

My concern with the disenfranchisement model is that it prevents an outlet for civil resolution for the disenfranchised and once started, one group could quickly expand to others. However, emotionally appealing it may be to me, I recognize that it is a solution fraught with potential corruption of the ideals that motivated its implementation.

 

[Choid]

I do not have fully formed opinions on the subject. However, I know that I would sooner enjoy the adoption of everybody paying some taxes and a few other solutions in between prior to disenfranchisement.

My concern with the disenfranchisement model is that it prevents an outlet for civil resolution for the disenfranchised and once started, one group could quickly expand to others. However, emotionally appealing it may be to me, I recognize that it is a solution fraught with potential corruption of the ideals that motivated its implementation.

I think that people are very motivated to have the franchise, so I imagine that would be the ultimate outcome. I do understand the discomfort with disenfranchisement, and agree that it would be an unfortunate outcome. However, the current situation of being able to vote yourself money at the ballot box is also disastrous. I suppose the Roman solution of tribunes is not tenable.

 

[M7rtim]

I remember reading something once about being hot or cold....

 

[Choid]

I remember reading something once about being hot or cold....

Well, if you think that Jesus would have you conflating your relationship with God with your relationship to government, I have something to tell you about rendering unto Caesar.

 

[Unknown]

I'm not a conservative. I am a liberal logical thinker. I think it is the logical thinking that many leftists miss. I can put liberal in front of anything I choose...

 

[pmclaine]

He got the name because he was a cranky, vindictive shit. He wasn't particularly moderate, he was particularly interested in media coverage, war and avenging what he saw as personal slights. It all started with the Keating 5 thing.

Anyway, lest assume, arguendo, that you are right, and that he was a true moderate who had no real conservative principles. Even worse, let's assume he was Jeff Flake. Now, this is an easy question, because four years ago, those were the two senators from Arizona, but for whom do you think they would have voted for senate majority leader? I can guaran-fucking-tee it it wouldn't have been Chuck Schumer. And without that, a lot of things would look different right now, so even taking your assumptions as fact, having those two, whom I personally despise, would be a lot better than having the two Democrats that represent Arizona now. As I said before, Conservatives reject strategic thinking and pay the price, all the while calling everybody else dumb.

It started before Keating 5.

McCain has been only for McCain since he realized his daddy, and his daddys daddy, were big shots and he assumed the respect they earned should automatically bring privilege to him.

 

[Choid]

It started before Keating 5.

McCain has been only for McCain since he realized his daddy, and his daddys daddy, were big shots and he assumed the respect they earned should automatically bring privilege to him.

Is this first hand knowledge, or are you making things up again? I mean, I could believe that you have great insight into John McCain, except I don't. What I do know, and it is pretty well known history, is that McCain's entire way of doing politics changed after that, and morphed into one big attempt to show he was the last honorable man.

 

[pmclaine]

Is this first hand knowledge, or are you making things up again? I mean, I could believe that you have great insight into John McCain, except I don't. What I do know, and it is pretty well known history, is that McCain's entire way of doing politics changed after that, and morphed into one big attempt to show he was the last honorable man.

Read Nightengales Song.

Guy got away with shit that any other service person would have been fucked for. Wife stays faithful to him through his whole VN experience than when he founds out she was physically handicapped after a horrible car crash while he was away he leaves her. One of his fellow POWs acknowledges his being a piece of shit.

Its out there....

 

[SonicBurlap]

When? I remember when someone coined the phrase "the moderate Taliban".

 

[pmclaine]

When? I remember when someone coined the phrase "the moderate Taliban".

Diverse Nazis

 

[RGStory]

I suppose the Roman solution of tribunes is not tenable.

I suppose the concept evolved since then into the house of representatives.

You might find interest in reading "Machiavellian Democracy: An Engine for Reform" by Kevin O'Leary. I do not think you will agree with it, merely that it discusses some key points of this topic.

 

[Choid]

Read Nightengales Song.

Guy got away with shit that any other service person would have been fucked for. Wife stays faithful to him through his whole VN experience than when he founds out she was physically handicapped after a horrible car crash while he was away he leaves her. One of his fellow POWs acknowledges his being a piece of shit.

Its out there....

Oh, I don't doubt he was a jackass his entire life, I am just talking about when his jihad to be loved as Mavrik started.

 

[Choid]

I suppose the concept evolved since then into the house of representatives.

You might find interest in reading "Machiavellian Democracy: An Engine for Reform" by Kevin O'Leary. I do not think you will agree with it, merely that it discusses some key points of this topic.

I will read it.

Agree about the house, though the difference between the house vote and the segregated selection of tribunes kind of kills the idea, especially when the senate became popularly chosen.

 

[pmclaine]

Oh, I don't doubt he was a jackass his entire life, I am just talking about when his jihad to be loved as Mavrik started.

He has been kissing dems forever.

Look at the Keating 5......of 5 how many republicans were involved?

 

[Choid]

He has been kissing dems forever.

Look at the Keating 5......of 5 how many republicans were involved?

Lol. There is a saying in Washington that there are two kinds of scandals. Republican ones and bipartisan ones. McCain was pretty much totally uninvolved in the Keating scandal, but they needed a Republican for bipartisanship. This is very well known. And I say this as somebody who despised John McCain.

In reality, most of McCain's apostacy politically came from the fact that he personally hated Bush and Trump, and his hurt feels, and belief that they had what was his, drove most of that, and his votes in that way. Other than McCain Feingold, which was directly related to his need to be seen as clean after Keating.

In reality, a guy like Jeff Flake is a much better example of a genuine squishy moderate who didn't have a reason to be one. I mean, it was multiplied by his hatred of Trump, but it was more systemic and less selfish than how McCain played things.

Circled back to add, that my point still stands. With McCain and Flake, instead of Sinema and Kelly, none of these stupid bills would see the light of day in the senate, and there would be no chance of killing the filibuster, ergo it is better to have shitty Republicans than Democrats, even if Sinema is one of the better Democrats.

 

[Romeo458]

It happened when Americans decided we should go the way of the balkans. A long time ago republicans and democrats could have these conversations and come to some understanding, but since the Communist have decided they want to take over the nation and republicans have decided they don't want to stand up to them, and the peopare segregated in to their little tribes it seems we've opted for division and separation. Moderate or not you have to choose a side now because we chose the divided we fall part.

 

[RGStory]

I will read it.

Agree about the house, though the difference between the house vote and the segregated selection of tribunes kind of kills the idea, especially when the senate became popularly chosen.

Perhaps a compromise then? A senate selected by the states in a manner of their choosing and a house of representatives selected by the public on a per capita basis?

I believe we already had this. It was the individual states that surrendered the notion of popular elections for senators to the general elections with the adoption of the 17th amendment. Which takes me back to the original subject. I can agree with your concerns with the 17th, but fixing that it would seem to render your concerns with the 24th moot.

 

[RTH1800]

The road has shifted so far that the middle is now way to far left for non communist.

 

[rustyinbend]

There was no way this discussion, in this forum, was going to produce balanced perspective or enlightened discourse ... nor would it ever have a happy ending. Scanned some of it, purely for entertainment value. Back now to what really matters ... the neck-sizing discussions in the Reloading Depot forum.

 

[MadDuner]

Balanced perspective?

Is that like a “moderate” murderer?

 

[Choid]

There was no way this discussion, in this forum, was going to produce balanced perspective or enlightened discourse ... nor would it ever have a happy ending. Scanned some of it, purely for entertainment value. Back now to what really matters ... the neck-sizing discussions in the Reloading Depot forum.

I actually disagree. There has been quite a bit of good in this thread. I mean, nobody is going to absolve you of voting for Biden, but I think quite a few perspectives of moderation are here.

 

[rustyinbend]

Balanced perspective?

Is that like a “moderate” murderer?

Maybe ... except it's not illegal, doesn't result in death, and it certainly doesn't tread on anyone else's rights or beliefs.
So I guess ... "No", it's not like that. LOL

 

[rustyinbend]

I actually disagree. There has been quite a bit of good in this thread. I mean, nobody is going to absolve you of voting for Biden, but I think quite a few perspectives of moderation are here.

I'm sorry ... I can't comment. I'm too busy reading a very moderate discussion where we're sharing balanced perspectives about neck-sizing cases.

 

[quietmike]

Well, if you think that Jesus would have you conflating your relationship with God with your relationship to government, I have something to tell you about rendering unto Caesar.

All the people whose picture is on my money is long dead. Who would I give it to?

 

[Choid]

All the people whose picture is on my money is long dead. Who would I give it to?

lol. D-

 

[pmclaine]

All the people whose picture is on my money is long dead. Who would I give it to?

I am their designated agent....my address is in your PM box.

 

[quietmike]

I am their designated agent....my address is in your PM box.

I don't even know what you look like.
How could I be sure?

 

[Fig]

I'm sorry ... I can't comment. I'm too busy reading a very moderate discussion where we're sharing balanced perspectives about neck-sizing cases.

We already know you're a Kingsman Tory pretending to be a patriot.

 

[Longshot231]

Diverse Nazis

The nazis were admired during a short period in history.

They were admired because they brought down unemployment, improved transportation, infrastructure, manufacturing. They pioneered medical experimentation and provided housing for millions of people displaced during WWII.

Please note my sarcasm before anyone turns their flamethrowers on me.

 

[MadDuner]

The nazis were admired during a short period in history.

They were admired because they brought down unemployment, improved transportation, infrastructure, manufacturing. They pioneered medical experimentation and provided housing for millions of people displaced during WWII.

Please note my sarcasm before anyone turns their flamethrowers on me.

Now YOU sir - have either been paying attention to how MSN operates, or you have some major journalism skills!

 

[Longshot231]

Now YOU sir - have either been paying attention to how MSN operates, or you have some major journalism skills!

The military taught me how to write. Enough said?

 

[pmclaine]

I don't even know what you look like.
How could I be sure?

Just do whatever "Nance" says and stop being silly.........

 

[Fig]

The nazis were admired during a short period in history.

They were admired because they brought down unemployment, improved transportation, infrastructure, manufacturing. They pioneered medical experimentation and provided housing for millions of people displaced during WWII.

Please note my sarcasm before anyone turns their flamethrowers on me.

Their main lament in the 1930s is that politics prevented them from being AS progressive as the American Democrats whom they admired and emulated. Who do you think gave them the idea to sterilize all "undesirables"?

When the left started calling themselves "progressives" I could hardly believe it. The only people who would call themselves a name so filled with shame and malevolence are a people completely ignorant of history.

 

[memtb]

News flash, less than half the country now pays taxes. We are over the brink where the takers outnumber the makers. There is no way to "democratically" fix this.
Countries, therefore, when lawmaking falls exclusively to the lot of the poor cannot hope for much economy in public expenditure; expenses will always be considerable, either because taxes cannot touch those who vote for them or because they are assessed in a way to prevent that.
A democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape the obligation to pay it.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.


Alexis de Tocqueville

Basic science: when the parasites overwhelm the host, the host dies.....then both cease to exist! memtb