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308 isn’t dead for a good reason.175 smk and 44 gr of Varget will shoot Lights out in so many rifles. The only problem is, it’s a 308.
The heavy-for-cal bullets showing up on the scene changed everything. Once those BC's got pumped up on smaller cals, the whole thing changed. 6mm bullets with BC's higher than the 175SMK, which can be launched 200fps faster with ease, from cartridges running 10gr less powder. Less heat, less recoil, flatter trajectory. Once that paradigm shifted... the 308 got put in the back seat and just keeps getting shoved further back every year.Might be fun to watch them all go back to 308 with a reasonable weight limit.
The issue there is recoil. When shooting for fun... 308's are still fun. Competition is different. Getting in a compromised position with as much recoil as 185's hand out is very noticeable compared to a 105 hybrid.The 185's are really good in the 308 as well
The issue there is recoil. When shooting for fun... 308's are still fun. Competition is different. Getting in a compromised position with as much recoil as 185's hand out is very noticeable compared to a 105 hybrid.![]()
hahahaah!I like to make sure i rattle any small blood clots loose before they get bigger and become a problem. I've been shooting 308 for health you see....
Terry was crushing us all no matter the caliber. We even did a few factory 308 only matches (The CoreBon , etc).....leaderboard didn’t change much. You’d hate him, but he’s such a nice guy. He did love that 260. Of course there was Stan the Man with is AWM 300WM who was tough to beat too.Sounded like 308 was the predominant caliber until shooters like Terry Cross started crushing the competition with the 260.
This is somewhat where I was headed with this thread. In the latest podcast where Frank states, "finding a balance" (which i think much of this podcast was tongue in cheek about where the equipment race is currently and headed).Might be fun to watch them all go back to 308 with a reasonable weight limit.
The issue there is recoil. When shooting for fun... 308's are still fun. Competition is different. Getting in a compromised position with as much recoil as 185's hand out is very noticeable compared to a 105 hybrid.![]()
The fact you had to knock a target down makes me wonder why the 7mm never got as "integrated" to the competition as did the 6.5. You don't get a lot of recoil break, but you sure get way helluva lot better ballistics!The serie(s)
will never initiate a balance in gear, it's against their self-interest to bring in sponsors. Hell the Series don't really enforce anything to begin with so asking to look at the gear race aspect is funny.
The balance is better of class of requirements, like fixing the production class. but that is on them, you'll never fix it. and neither will they.
308 ruled the roost, Terry shot a 260 and then a260AI
Fun fact, and "why" behind it, we used to have Larue targets at 800, 900, 1000, and you had to knock them down to score, a hit alone did not count. We used to set them forward on an angle and most of the time the smaller calibers would not knock it down unless you hit it very high on the plate.
Remember we worked 3 weeks on, 1 week off back then and 2 of the 3 weeks were military classes, so everything we did revolved around the military training. The stages mimic'd a lot of their after actions so a 308 would solve the problems very well.
I remember when a mid-pack shooter first showed up with a better twisted, and racey 243 and he immediately landed at the top of the leader board. When 308s were in the minority a Corpus LE Shooter came in 2nd with an issued 308 because it's what he worked with every day. But nothing is like it used to be
The gear racing when into overdrive when sponsorships came into the mix. That it became an officially sanctioned race.
A 7-08 with 160 somethings is a nice combination, I also always wondered why it was never more popular.The fact you had to knock a target down makes me wonder why the 7mm never got as "integrated" to the competition as did the 6.5. You don't get a lot of recoil break, but you sure get way helluva lot better ballistics!
FGMMA 7-08 with 160 somethings is a nice combination, I also always wondered why it was never more popular.
A 7mm-08 set up right shooting 168's will beat the living shit out of FGMMFGMM
i shoot a 7SAW im awareA 7mm-08 set up right shooting 168's will beat the living shit out of FGMM
Added: With the same recoil...
Ten years ago, I was loading Berger and JLK 168’s and 180’s. Been doing that for a few years by then. High BC 7mm’s.i shoot a 7SAW im aware
but when FGMM 308 shot as good as it did for the price, it was an easy button. especially with limited match bullets 10 years ago in 7mm
A 7mm-08 set up right shooting 168's will beat the living shit out of FGMM
Added: With the same recoil...
No, not ammo. Bullets, yes, but no ammo.Yep but there was no 7-08, readily available, "match" ammo, at least I don't think there was.
The fact you had to knock a target down makes me wonder why the 7mm never got as "integrated" to the competition as did the 6.5. You don't get a lot of recoil break, but you sure get way helluva lot better ballistics!
308 isn’t dead for a good reason.
The 7WSM was coming into the match scene 09ish where I was. Got big for awhile with the 180 Berger- it was the S#*t. I got in a year later and George built it. Great cartridge but barrel life and recoil weren’t ideal once round count/speed started picking up. I recall almost watching my throat erode after a high round count mover stage at RO when shooting my 7 short. That and limited brass made it less than ideal. $3.50 a round retail vs $1.10 for 6.5CM with very similar wind calls within 1k. I still have mine, love it, but for the average match, the non magnum chamberings are better.George Gardner made quite a few 7WSMs and IIRC he competed with one for a short time too. I think that was the end of 07 or beginning of 08.
The 7WSM was coming into the match scene 09ish where I was. Got big for awhile with the 180 Berger- it was the S#*t. I got in a year later and George built it. Great cartridge but barrel life and recoil weren’t ideal once round count/speed started picking up. I recall almost watching my throat erode after a high round count mover stage at RO when shooting my 7 short. That and limited brass made it less than ideal. $3.50 a round retail vs $1.10 for 6.5CM with very similar wind calls within 1k. I still have mine, love it, but for the average match, the non magnum chamberings are better.
Doc
What were the most common rifle/cartridge combos during the early years of PRS/Rifle Only days?
.308 for sure. Pretty much what everyone ran. Then Terry and Jim with their .260s and then George brought the .243 in the mix around 2004 and the race began.
So, my question is why no one ever stopped at the 7mm-08, or anything non magnum 7mm, to compete with the .308. Seems like everybody bypassed the high BC's and went straight to "speed, with good BC's", i.e. 6mm and 6.5mm.Don't be bashful Rob, you were in the mix as well in the early days. I remember when 6.5CM was first starting out, and brass was made of unobtainium. Unless I'm mistaken, you were the only one who was posting detailed threads on forming 6.5CM from 308 (a cut down 7-08 die IIRC), and helping ensure it's use (and thereby acceptance) within the LR community. I remember because I was one of those early adopters that only had a hundred pieces of brass before it suddenly dried up. It was a lot of work, but it helped many of us continue to use "that new fangled 6.5" in the local comps....
So, my question is why no one ever stopped at the 7mm-08, or anything non magnum 7mm, to compete with the .308. Seems like everybody bypassed the high BC's and went straight to "speed, with good BC's", i.e. 6mm and 6.5mm.
Standard twist in a European, and South/Central American was 1-8.44" or 1-215mm. We had to fuck it up when it got over here, I guess.I think it may have been the prevalence of twist rates in the 6.5 and 6mm barrels, and the velocities seen with the CM. It was near 6.5x55mm performance, but in a short action. Then you had the failed support of Remington for the .260, which had already gained a reputation for stellar long range performance.
I recall when the 6.5CM was first gaining popularity, it was largely called "What the .260 should have been" or "Splitting the difference between the 6.5x47mm and the .260". I think the industry and community were already going down the 6.5/6mm path, and so the 7mm was just bypassed in the process.
So, my question is why no one ever stopped at the 7mm-08, or anything non magnum 7mm, to compete with the .308. Seems like everybody bypassed the high BC's and went straight to "speed, with good BC's", i.e. 6mm and 6.5mm.
Recoil is definitely less and less recoil lets you get away with more.So, my question is why no one ever stopped at the 7mm-08, or anything non magnum 7mm, to compete with the .308. Seems like everybody bypassed the high BC's and went straight to "speed, with good BC's", i.e. 6mm and 6.5mm.
168's came out before the 180's. Those would stabilize from a 1-9" twist barrel.There were no high BC 7mm bullets besides the 180gr VLD back then and that bullet was too heavy for 7-08. 7-08, like the 243 Win, was viewed in the market as a hunting cartridge and there was basically no LR OEM or aftermarket support. Nearly every caliber has a high BC bullet today but that wasn't the case 15 years ago.
Didn’t David Tubb use a 7mm 168 smk to win in the late 80’s early 90’s?168's came out before the 180's. Those would stabilize from a 1-9" twist barrel.
Added: Come to think of it, I can't say for PRS, but for square range shooting the darling was the 6.5-284. But, as always everybody loaded them hot and they ate barrels profusely.
Might be fun to watch them all go back to 308 with a reasonable weight limit.
What were the most common rifle/cartridge combos during the early years of PRS/Rifle Only days?
Take @lowlight idea of “production class.” I’d call it tactical class
18lb limit
Only factory ammo (like mass produced. No copper creek or clay’s “factory” ammo). Name the companies allowed: hornady, federal, prime, lapua, Norma, Winchester, etc etc etc
26” barrel limit.
Add a few things like:
1 bag and bipod
Tripod when specified
Honor system 1.5lb trigger. Random spot check authorized.
Any caliber. As long as it fits within the specs.