Killed this with an LVPO but I think I’m gonna swap for a 2-10 . One shot62 gr 223
Rifle Scopes Where Are We At With LPVO's
- Thread starter nick338
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Its SFP, but the Primary Arms SLx 1-10x28 with the 34mm tube and ACSS Griffin M10S MIL reticle is really nice. Comes in at 10.5” compact length & only 19.1 oz.
Primary Arms SLx 1-10x28 SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Griffin M10S Reticle
This Primary Arms rifle scope is part of the SLx optics line.
www.primaryarms.com
This is probably gonna ruffle some feathers, but my buddy at the range had a Credo 1-10 and the glass in it was nowhere near worth the price. I would say the glass in my SLx 1-10x28 is on par, maybe even a little brighter, than the Credo. Everyone’s eyes are different, but 3 different people have looked through both of them, and concluded the same…Including the dude who owned the Credo.
Optics tech is coming along VERY rapidly over the last 10 years. You can get some damn decent scopes for under $1,000 these days. And having features that would have cost you $2,500+ were it built just 10, 15, or 20 years ago.
I had one of the Credo scopes. I will agree on the glass...it sucked.Its SFP, but the Primary Arms SLx 1-10x28 with the 34mm tube and ACSS Griffin M10S MIL reticle is really nice. Comes in at 10.5” compact length & only 19.1 oz.
Primary Arms SLx 1-10x28 SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Griffin M10S Reticle
This Primary Arms rifle scope is part of the SLx optics line.www.primaryarms.com
This is probably gonna ruffle some feathers, but my buddy at the range had a Credo 1-10 and the glass in it was nowhere near worth the price. I would say the glass in my SLx 1-10x28 is on par, maybe even a little brighter, than the Credo. Everyone’s eyes are different, but 3 different people have looked through both of them, and concluded the same…Including the dude who owned the Credo.
Optics tech is coming along VERY rapidly over the last 10 years. You can get some damn decent scopes for under $1,000 these days. And having features that would have cost you $2,500+ were it built just 10, 15, or 20 years ago.
It was then I decided I was done with the LPVO's and went with a Primary Arms Cyclops. Love the weight but miss the ability to stretch out as my eyes are not what they used to be.
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I think weight is the only downfall to most of the nice lpvos, I enjoy running the several that I have. My favorite 1x is still the razor 1-6. It’s just so easy to get behind and on target fast. I have an atacr 1-8 and also a 1-10 razor. I like those better for mid ranges. While the 1x is still good on them I prefer the 1-6 razor.
And on to the mpvo, I don’t ever see myself using a 2-10 when I can jump into a 3-18 or 4-16 with a top mounted Red dot for similar size and weight
And on to the mpvo, I don’t ever see myself using a 2-10 when I can jump into a 3-18 or 4-16 with a top mounted Red dot for similar size and weight
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Not only that, it's dual focal plane. All Power Variable OpticIs that still technically a 1X?
I don't get the MPVO+RD thing.
I've got rifles with dots, dots and magnifiers, LPVO's, MPVO's and HPVO's. Each one has the right optic for what I want to do with the rifle. The LPVO guns take me from 1-500 yards very well, the MPVO guns take me from 100 to 800. That's enough overlap that I rarely need an MPVO for what I'm doing, and when I do need an MPVO or HPVO, I have no plans to blast at contact distance.
I even threw a dot on an MPVO gun for giggles. Kept right on not using it at red dot distances ever and took it off.
I've got rifles with dots, dots and magnifiers, LPVO's, MPVO's and HPVO's. Each one has the right optic for what I want to do with the rifle. The LPVO guns take me from 1-500 yards very well, the MPVO guns take me from 100 to 800. That's enough overlap that I rarely need an MPVO for what I'm doing, and when I do need an MPVO or HPVO, I have no plans to blast at contact distance.
I even threw a dot on an MPVO gun for giggles. Kept right on not using it at red dot distances ever and took it off.
I get it, use the right tool for the job. But you're describing picking from an array of rifles for a specific predetermined purpose. If you have a carbine for multiple uses, or you're going into a blind match, the MPVO + dot covers 0-800 yards.
Yeah, I guess. Personally, I don't see myself going to any blind matches anytime soon, and being familiar with all the ranges in my area, I'm not worried about any surprises with longer distances or unusally small targets. On top of all that, I often bring 2-3 rifles to any match just in case one looks stronger than another for the challenges presented.
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So can a 1-8 LPVO and keep the weight down while doing it. I had no problem hitting a B-21E silhouette target at 600 yards with an 11.5" AR off a pack with a NF NXS 1-8. I'm not understanding the need to increase magnification and weight and risk a dot going down leaving you with a mid-range scope on a carbine that spends most of it's time at 100 yards or less. Matches aren't necessarily representative of the real world. I want the best tool where that weapon will be used 90% of the time and less is more on a carbine.
Not trying to change anyone's way of thinking because everyone's needs are different. Weight and simplicity are more important to me.
My atacr has been good from the shoot house to 600 yards on a reduced target out of my 12.5
Sorry for the very late response, but you’ve used the 1-8 exos on an AR? How was it? I’m looking at 1-8 LPVOs and haven’t found much on the exos in particular since I stumbled upon it
This was right around the early Covid stuff and I was getting em for like $1800-1900ish. I'm not sure the brightness was as bright as the PMII's and I'm not so sure the edge to edge clarity was as good as a PMII but for a keep-it-simple option, it was an excellent option for the money when a 1-6 Razor HD was $1300.
Currently, the prices of the EXOS are a bit insulting for no more than what they are. I still have some pics of some demos I did to include in a presentation and I had the EXOS on my gun at the time. It's pretty much the same size as the 1-8CC PMII's. Here's the optic:
Very interesting. I’ve always been drawn to the S&Bs because of the glass clarity and this one seems to not disappoint. But in terms of price/availability the Kahles scopes have been my best option.This was right around the early Covid stuff and I was getting em for like $1800-1900ish. I'm not sure the brightness was as bright as the PMII's and I'm not so sure the edge to edge clarity was as good as a PMII but for a keep-it-simple option, it was an excellent option for the money when a 1-6 Razor HD was $1300.
Currently, the prices of the EXOS are a bit insulting for no more than what they are. I still have some pics of some demos I did to include in a presentation and I had the EXOS on my gun at the time. It's pretty much the same size as the 1-8CC PMII's. Here's the optic:
Maybe once I get the funds saved I’ll see if I can scoop one for about what you paid. Seems they go around the 2000-2300 mark just off of some quick searches but they don’t get sold.
S&B has pretty much priced themselves out of play. $5k for an LPVO is insane, and the secondary market is spotty. I love the S&B lpvo's for what they are and still think (pricing structure aside), they offer the best options...especially for what I look for.
Kahles 1-6 and the Razor HD2 1-6 are recommendations for a "regular Joe" looking for an LPVO instead of a red dot/magnifier combo that maybe wants a little more. Sniper-lite shit is a whole other optic and conversation that depends largely on personal preferences.
@OP
Yes
March shorty dfp 1-10 (both gens)
Nx8
Delta stryker 1-6
Trijicon credo HD 1-6
PA plx-c sfp
All daylight bright under 20oz
Yes
March shorty dfp 1-10 (both gens)
Nx8
Delta stryker 1-6
Trijicon credo HD 1-6
PA plx-c sfp
All daylight bright under 20oz
No sniper shit for me. Just want a 1-8 to put on a 16 inch. Think my options are dwindled down to either a Kahles or S&B. Hard part is finding people selling for a good price(in my eyes, no pun intended). Wonder how much S&B would charge to change an exos FD7 reticle to an MDR reticle lol.
I mean, they're out there. I say this having listed one for sale recently (and not having it sell). Mind you it was not a Dual CC, but a 1-8x24CC 2nd focal...and in baby shit RAL8000. I mean...if you got the cash, I can certainly get you into a S&B for under $3k...
As per the reticle change, Jerry has done some interesting reticle swaps for me. I wanna say the last Short Dot (on a 1-4) swap was $550 on that older model for a new reticle and a new beam splitter together.
Have a dual cc. Love it but IMO you’d need it eliminate all other options before you end up there. It’s a lot of $
Last I contacted S&B bout a PM2 reticle change it was $1000.
Yeah, the rational adult in me says a S&B outside of a 1.1-4 is a bit steep for what I want. Realistically will probably end up with either a kahles or maybe a NF. Wasn’t a fan of the NX8 1-8 but maybe I’ll give the ATACR a fair shake.
IMO when it comes to LPVOs anyone can afford, with sunny/daytime-bright dots, there are the Razors or the Stiener P4Xi 1-4 and then everything else, and with any LPVO (or any other type of scope) having a "20 ounces or else" requirement is plain dumb because they don't exist yet. Even if they did, weight is sort of a ridiculous ask because we need shit to work more than we need it to be light when the main purpose of the magnification is going to far and away be PID over extra mag needed for long-range shots, and for something to be robust it's going to probably have to weigh more than 20 ounces.
For a DMR a dot + MPVO was and still is the hotness, but IRL a dot is still the fastest in close but doesn't offer the best PID, which is why LPVOs are a thing.
For a DMR a dot + MPVO was and still is the hotness, but IRL a dot is still the fastest in close but doesn't offer the best PID, which is why LPVOs are a thing.
You should definitely look at the atacr. I’ve actually really grown to like my NX8’s.
Would also recommend looking into the SAI 1-6’s
I really enjoyed his video. He does a good job of keeping his personal preferences to a minimum and trying to stay objective. Frankly, I don't think there was a single bad optic in the lineup which brings it down to the ol' faithful, which one do I simply LIKE more?
I’d almost rather know a persons way of doing things and personal bias so I can have some context. Because (as you note) it comes down to personal preference. Ultimately that comes down to minor details and nuance
About SAI Optics | Armament Technology Inc.
The SAI™ series of optical sights provide a rugged and versatile solution for a variety of sighting requirements in variable magnification.
armament.com
Eurooptic podcast interview with them from a couple of years ago.
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For me it’s the ability to shoot close and long range seamlessly with good glass and eye relief, do courses and/or competitions, and home defense.
Never owned a S&B but have shot other peoples rifles with them and they check the boxes except the price box lol. Love the CC mode and the super clear glass throughout all magnifications.
And I never owned an LPVO and don’t really want to climb the ladder of buying and selling a bunch of LPVOs just to find one I like.
Yeah that makes sense. Supersetca did an interesting video on the nx8 last year and mentioned his close range and vtac splits where pretty much identical between that and his razor 1-6. It's an interesting data point to see that a 'nicer' experience doesn't necessarily translate to increased performance
One also has to remember context and the sterile nature of the flat range. Spend enough time and you can push technically deficient equipment at acceptable (or even exceptional) speeds. Add other variables into the mix like stress and movement and the numbers will change (even with high-end people).
Admittedly, I have no love for the NF 1-8's. I used the NX8 for a long time and the new reticle design is a big improvement on one of my gripes. While they are high-quality optics, they fail to check a lot of boxes for me or check boxes on things I don't care for. Some dudes love 'em; but they don't suit me for what I would like and the money I can spend.
And to be completely fair to the NX8, I never thought the low end was as bad as many say, it was the top end I hated.
A tale as old as time....
I can save you the time and say (for probably the 50th time across a dozen sites) that at current, you get to pick from the bottom up or top down. Some optics are better suited for 1x and can help you at distance/small targets in a pinch. Others are set up for distance/range and can work at the low/close end in a pinch. Then there's the middle ground (that far to few talk about). I don't care how much money you throw down, nothing is the master of EVERYTHING.
Prioritize what's important. Filter that through personal preference and budget...there you go!
I have really enjoyed my two SAIs.
Need to get the one with the mrad reticle, as the others are on two 16ish inch ARs that I use for run and gun and I just use them as variable ACOGS with thier ballistic drop reticle- which has been good out to 500 yards in field conditions.
I think the MRAD reticle would let me use the scope for some of the more esoteric ballistic bullshit I have laying around- i like the SAI scopes that much.
I usually hop skip and jump around with my scopes, but after mounting the SAIs, they have stayed on those rifles for 3 or so years; they may be worth a look....
Need to get the one with the mrad reticle, as the others are on two 16ish inch ARs that I use for run and gun and I just use them as variable ACOGS with thier ballistic drop reticle- which has been good out to 500 yards in field conditions.
I think the MRAD reticle would let me use the scope for some of the more esoteric ballistic bullshit I have laying around- i like the SAI scopes that much.
I usually hop skip and jump around with my scopes, but after mounting the SAIs, they have stayed on those rifles for 3 or so years; they may be worth a look....
Agree with the last part.
Disagree with the first part. I've ran atacrs, eotechs, nx8's, aimpoints, and many others through force on force, shoot houses, and numerous other situations. My splits are the same across the board.
Not saying you're experience is wrong. It certainly is an Indian, not the arrow thing. Ymmv
I was really hopeful for the NX8 1-8, but actually found the 1x to be way too sensitive for lateral eye box. I was very disappointed. The 8x was about what I expected for the top end and very usable with a solid cheek weld in a stable position. It was great at 6x. But the 1x was just too finicky at 1x. And being FFP, it was almost binary whether the reticle was visible or not for the eyebox.
Edit: I’ve been VERY happy with my NX8 4-32.
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In the same boat. Did not like the eye box on the NX8 which killed it for me. but for some reason the ACOGs eye relief doesn’t bother me too much.
When I heard that Primary Arms was coming out with their new 1-8 PLXc with the Nova Fibre dot in SFP, after much deliberation I decided to sell my beloved Kahles K16i G4B reticle scope. I have had this new PA scope now since they first came out and I will just say I have no regrets about getting it. It is mounted in a Reptilia Corp 1.7” height mount. I am using a SOLGW Broad sword upper and their M89 rail / handguard with a thermal fit 13.9” Criterion Core cold hammer forged chrome lined barrel. IMHO, the build quality of my new PA scope is very good , from the positive turret clicks and smooth magnification ring operation, and it really just feels solidly built. While the glass quality is very good, it’s not quite as good overall as the Kahles K16i , but it’s close enough to really not matter to me. The eyebox on 1x is pretty good and very close to my Kahles K16i’s. The eyebox on 8x is tight as expected but is definitely plenty usable. I got this scope knowing probably 90 % of its use would be from 0-300 yds and 10% from 3-400yds. IMHO, from 400 yds and out a FFP reticle is then really a better option overall, as might also be a MPV scope. IMHO, for anyone or for someone like me with less than 20/20 corrected vision the 8x magnification definitely helps seeing and hitting smaller targets at longer distances vs 6X scopes. So far anyways I have to say, good job Primary Arms. As for what's best for you, you will just have to decide by your usage, price point , features, your eyesight, target size at 3-400 yds, etc.
I’ve gotten pretty good with dots and EOtechs, but for what the price of a Dot+magnifier costs it makes sense in my head that an LPVO can do more for just a little more
seems like a solid optic. Surprised they only have a 1-6 out. Are they a newer branch? Figured they have a 1-8 or a 2-10 as well since they’re made by TT and ELCAN.
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Thanks mate. I really wanted to show case each one of their strengths and weaknesses to help everyone be able to formulate their own opinions on which is best for them.
The SAI is pretty sweet especially when you can opt in or out of the “x”. If a “nuclear” bright aiming point on 1x is a must, it may not be the right choice.
Of all of the FFP 1-6's its my favorite. The controls, accessories, and glass are all impossible to beat. The ONLY thing is the reticle is a touch hard to use between 1-2x. Beyond that its fantastic.
Edit: IDK if its public enough yet to talk about it. But they will be expanding on their LPVO lineup very very soon. Also, they are bringing all of their products in house. So instead of these being made in Japan, they will be made in Canada soon.
Ill share this here because I Love all y'all. Despite all of the complaints I had with all of the scopes in the lineup I just did. I still shot them all good. You can train around anything. But why give yourself a handicap when you may be able to get something that gives you a leg up in someway shape or form.
Data collected from 13 years being a team guy and instructor. I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
An interesting point-
My younger, less proficient guys prefer the eotech/mag combo while my older dudes with better manual of arms almost all stick to the atacr. It's pretty interesting to see the switch as they go from less proficient to more.
Again, I 100% believe you have better luck with certain things as they just jive with you better. Indian, not the arrow.
Super cool! It's also perfectly acceptable to simply not like one thing but like another.
“Nuclear” bright isn’t an absolute must have. If it’s just daylight bright but I can still see the illuminated reticle with say, a flashlight on in darker conditions I’m happy. I’m a realist and understand there’s trade offs with everything.
Yeah guys like us are a dime a dozen…
What I mean is IF we really get into the numbers patters emerge….small as they may be. If we are a true slave to data.
Spent too long in the game to see people who think feelings are data and poor metrics are valid.
Not saying that’s the case or not. Just why I’m a general cynic and curious as to what the numbers were.
Oh I get it. Sorry for taking it that way. I was unlucky enough to learn 'cqb' or whatever the popular phrase is now on an m16 with a 203 and acog. I STRONGLY believe that's why I can be consistent across the board with optics. Once you clear structures with that, literally anything is easy.
As for patterns, some days, I simply did better with certain optics. Some days didn't matter. But what ALWAYS mattered was the set up leading to the engagment-
Was my angle of approach the best it could be
Was my footwork correct to break the threshold efficiently
Was I able to time my body mechanics to be as smooth as possible without adding extra steps
Was I able to time my movements off the guy in front of me correctly.
The majority of the time I found outliers in the footage we've taken was from one of the above variables. Every once in awhile the optic/rifle combo just jived or didn't with me that day. Some days we are just off.
