Advanced Marksmanship Where to read the mirage?

[targetterror]

I'm new to reading the wind, and I'm having a helluva time putting theory to practice in the field. I've looked at a whole bunch of diagrams, read a whole bunch of books, and I understand how mirage works, at least in the abstract. But whenever I get to the range, I can't for the life of me actually figure out what direction the mirage is moving in. I see it shimmering, and I see the target becoming blurred, but that is it.

So I guess my question specifically is, what are the best features to look at to see mirage? The dirt berm behind the target has little definition, and I didn't see much their. The target carriers and the numbers below them seem better, but they don't really seem uniform, and thus give me some trouble too.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

If you've read all the books and such, this may be reiterating what you already know. But for what its worth...

Focus your spotting scope on the target, then pull the focus back to about 1/2-2/3 of the way to the target - so you can see the top of a berm or terrain feature at that interim distance relatively clearly. Now look over the target - if you're on a KD range with number boards over the target, look at the top edge of the number board (assuming 1k yds for this example). At longer distances, thats about the height of the bullet travel over the line of sight at the peak of the trajectory - roughly about where you have the spotting scope focused. You should be set to see the mirage at that distance where the bullet is highest off the ground and the wind velocity is likely to be faster than it is closer to the ground i.e. line of sight like you'd see through your rifle scope. At shorter ranges - say, 600yds) the bullet probably barely rises over the top of the target backer (assuming 5' sq NRA targets here) so that is where you want to look for those distances.

If you're not shooting a KD range or one with number boards below the target... it gets a whole lot more difficult. The above is where I start. You may find it worthwhile to adjust the focus of your spotting scope to 'see' the wind where it comes through or over a significant terrain feature - like if there is a cut in the tree line or a spot where the wind can come 'spill' down into the shooting lanes. At that point, the theory is all well and good and will probably aid in understanding 'why', but local experience becomes golden.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

A LITTLE WARNING about focusing the spotting scope for reading mirage.

First to answer your question, about 2/3s distance between you in the target.

When I went to the NG-MTU's Coaches Clinic I screwed up one day on the range, I had focused the scope beyond the target which reversed the mirage. It was funny, (or would have been if it would have been someone else besides me). You look down the line of targets, you could see the spotters all on one spot, except mine. I got the call right, it was just off to the wrong side.

Anyway, the way to read mirage is spending hours upon hours burning your eyes looking through a spotting scope. You might get the ideal by reading books, but everyone sees things a bit differance.

Go to a rifle match (high power, f-class, 1000 yard, or what ever) find out who's the good shooters are and get behind them with you spotting scope. Try to get directly behind the shooter.

A team match is better. Sit where you can hear the coach, and have you scope directly behind the shooter (without interferring of course), Watch the mirage and listen to the coaches corrections.

One time I was at a 1000 yard team match at 29 Palms, we were squaded next to the AMU team. I kept score for the AMU team which means I had to set right next to their coach with my spotting scope. They ended up firing 799 out of 800. That was the service rifle team, using M14s.

I'd mentally make calls and then listen as the coach called out his calls.

I've been shooting and coaching for a while before that, but I learned a lot about reading mirage and wind just by scoring the AMU team.

Those boys can shoot.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I've had the best results reading mirage at mid-range.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Properly adjusting a high powered spotter will allow you to read wind at different distances. This way you can get multiple wind readings and determine the best windage adjustment.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Properly adjusting a high powered spotter will allow you to read wind at different distances. This way you can get multiple wind readings and determine the best windage adjustment.</div></div>

Multiply wind readings? Can you explain this; and, how's this working out for you? Any wins in LR with your method?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Mirage tells you a thing or two (direction, force, etc.) about what the wind is doing at the distance where it's being read, and that can be useful. But the wind may well be doing either the same thing, another thing, or even nothing at other distances, and all these things are also important.

The more you know, the more information you have to weigh; so more information can be a mixed blessing.

Generally a given force will generate a given deflection for an instant. The longer that deflection runs without further intervention, the more linear its effect, i.e. 1" at 200yd, 2" at 400yd, etc.; so winds encountered earlier can have more effect over the remainder of the trajectory than ones which will influence the trajectory later on.

While it's possible that a wind will remain constant along the entire trajectory, the longer the trajectory, the less likely this will be.

In the case of a constant wind, its effect will be similar to an acceleration, i.e., the deflection will follow a curve, very much like drop does, only at a 90 degree (Lateral vs vertical) angle to gravity's effect.

In the case of a 'switchy' wind, the path will follow a less constant curve, even reversing itself, dependent on wind variances along the trajectory.

Knowing more about mirage at different distances can be helpful, but it can also make the process more complex. I can't really say which is better, and I can't really say I have a good handle on it myself.

If I had to choose a simple way, Charles' (Sterling Shooter's) method is as good as any.

Greg

 

[ocabj]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I don't regularly shoot LR formats (i.e. 3x1000, or Palma) so most of my shooting is 200/300/600 (XTC) or Mid-Range prone (3x600).

That said, on the 600 yard line, I'll focus my spotting scope on the target, then turn it back counterclockwise until I can just barely make out the shot spotter and scoring disc. This usually results in the 200 or 300 yard lines being it the focal depth of field, and I'm most likely seeing the mirage at the 200 yard line. So I guess I'm reading mirage 1/2 to 1/3 before the target.

 

[joshn]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When I went to the NG-MTU's Coaches Clinic I screwed up one day on the range, I had focused the scope beyond the target which reversed the mirage. </div></div>

I've see that too where you change focal distances and it seems to reverse the direction of the mirage. I'm not sure if the wind is actually blowing differently at that distance, or if it's, as Ron Burgundy would say, and "optical illusion."

 

[JeffinTX]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

joshn:
if you focus the spotting scope BEYOND the target, you can see the mirage running in the opposite direction. Bad mistake. Most focus about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way to the target, so we can see the mirage and just make out the target and scoring disk.

TT:
are you using a good spotting scope? There is a world of difference between the 2-400 dollar generic scopes and the midrange scopes (Kowa) and then there are the high end Zeiss/Leica. The optical clarity is what you are paying for and its most noticable scoping the mirage (vs just looking at the target). Because of the performance vs. cost factor, you'd see 90% Kowas on the line at Camp Perry.

 

[joshn]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7x57</div><div class="ubbcode-body">joshn:
if you focus the spotting scope BEYOND the target, you can see the mirage running in the opposite direction. Bad mistake. Most focus about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way to the target, so we can see the mirage and just make out the target and scoring disk.
</div></div>

Thanks, I'll be sure not to do that.

 

[HH4]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Properly adjusting a high powered spotter will allow you to read wind at different distances. This way you can get multiple wind readings and determine the best windage adjustment.</div></div>

Multiply wind readings? Can you explain this; and, how's this working out for you? Any wins in LR with your method? </div></div>

Sterling Shooter, I think what KNIGHT11B4 is saying is that he takes more than one wind reading at different points along the path of the bullet and then averages that out.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

It's too slow to do it that way.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I was not under the impression that I was under any time constraints. I was voicing my experience of a more thorough method.

I never said "multiply" wind readings, i said i look at multiple spots down range to determine the best wind adjustment. A 5mph wind at the target and a 15 mph in the opposite direction midway to the target needs to be accounted for. This is a very common situation in urban enviorments.

As far as my "wins in LR", I dont compete other than in military and LEO competitions, and I have multiple top 3 finishes.

The majority of my "wins in LR" were spent in hostile country, apparently my methods work well enough because Ive made it from multiple trips.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I never said "multiply" wind readings, i said i look at multiple spots down range to determine the best wind adjustment. A 5mph wind at the target and a 15 mph in the opposite direction midway to the target needs to be accounted for. This is a very common situation in urban enviorments.
</div></div>

Wind at the target is meaningless, so why consider it? Nevertheless, using your example at let's say 600 yards, with M118LR from your M24, what's the favor in inches; and, how did you "account" for it? That's to say, what's your formula. Is this your notion, or something you picked up in your training? Also, are you going to actually favor, or will you click in? With your half minute windage graduations, how many clicks would you need from your no-wind zero? Take your time, like you said, you're not in a hurry. Will the wind wait while you figure it out?

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Look im not here to piss back and forth. That was never my intention.

Personally I rarely click for any wind, I prefer to hold because wind is not constant as you hinted at.

I completely agree with you insight that the most important place to account for wind is mid-range. I never argued this, just stated that it can be helpful to account for wind at multiple points.

As for the M24 and 1/2 moa adjustments on the M3, that was not the optic that was on our rifles. I would not consider adjusting in 1/2 moa. I made it a priority to have those old and out dated optics replaced, and they were.

The formulas we used always gave our wind hold in mils, not an inch favor.

I appreciate your experience and your methods, I am not challenging that they work and are correct. I was just inputing some info to think about.

I find it hard to believe that in a forum that is supose to be full of professionals that people are so quick to bash people for useful posts with sarcasm.

I understand wind wont wait , believe me I know the time constraints on my profession. with a competent spotter and shooter multiple wind readings can be taken very quickly.

Either way different strokes for different folks.

Target Terror, sorry for hijacking the threat with this sidebar. My intent was to only add info.

 

[TCA4570]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

What if your target is only a 12" square?
No backstop or berm to get dope from.
No flat ground, between you and the target.
No way to judge wind in open air.
No mirage, because no ground underneath.
Work together, not piss in Wheaties.

You can pay for the trip, and have change to spare if you clean the course.

 

[lanwickum]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Some good practice a fellow long range shooter told me was to watch mirage over a field of wheat. You see the wind blowing the wheat around very clearly. From that learn to watch what the wind is doing to the mirage. Just watch until you can't see clearly and play with it. Around here many of the fields are 1 mile long. Give good distance to practice across.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look im not here to piss back and forth. That was never my intention.

Personally I rarely click for any wind, I prefer to hold because wind is not constant as you hinted at.

I completely agree with you insight that the most important place to account for wind is mid-range. I never argued this, just stated that it can be helpful to account for wind at multiple points.

As for the M24 and 1/2 moa adjustments on the M3, that was not the optic that was on our rifles. I would not consider adjusting in 1/2 moa. I made it a priority to have those old and out dated optics replaced, and they were.

The formulas we used always gave our wind hold in mils, not an inch favor.

I appreciate your experience and your methods, I am not challenging that they work and are correct. I was just inputing some info to think about.

I find it hard to believe that in a forum that is supose to be full of professionals that people are so quick to bash people for useful posts with sarcasm.

I understand wind wont wait , believe me I know the time constraints on my profession. with a competent spotter and shooter multiple wind readings can be taken very quickly.

Either way different strokes for different folks.

Target Terror, sorry for hijacking the threat with this sidebar. My intent was to only add info.</div></div>

Can you answer the question, how much favor? After all, it's your example. Make it for any distance. I just want to better understand what science you're using to "account" as you said for the wind at the target. How do you "account" for multi winds? What's the formula for that? I'm just wonderin'.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I'm somewhat sorry Night11B4 has not responded to my question regarding how he does it, since I'd like to learn how to do it. Can anyone here explain how to account for multiple winds, including wind at the target? What's the formula for that? Night11B4 says he has "formulas", so, how about revealing them?

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

In all honesty, I look at the mirage by focusing my scope, as others here do with my other eye on the flags to take account of differences in what the two show.... when I see a reverse, like when the mirage is going one way and the flags going the other, I don't shoot.

I usually hold off and don't dial in the correction since I have MOA in the reticle and, I can say honestly from my own experience that there's a feel to the wind and there is no substitute for experience and rounds down range.

By holding off, I can shoot when I see the mirage change too without stopping to make the change. It gets too confusing ( for me ) to try to correct in the scope after I change the turret to hold off unless I don't have dope on the windage knob.

IMHO, I think shooting in the wind is a perishable skill that needs practice and attention to maintain.

I don't think I said anything here that most don't already know, however.

I think when it all comes down to it, you use what indicators you have and, take your best guess.... look for a condition that everything seems to "return" to and look for that condition... when you figure out that condition you can add or subtract from the hold based on what and how things changed from that "return" condition.... at least that's what I attempt to do.

PS: I'd hold over 7moa for a 15mph 9 o'clock crosswind at the 600yd line with only one indicator ( midway ) shooting my load for a 308 175gr. ( probably slightly less if I had M118LR )

 

[ubet]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

You have to shoot in the wind to learn how to call and judge wind, theirs no substitutefor that, its the only way you will learn

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Skip, I think you'd be well served to listen to rather than question Knight. I agree with and use his method. I've used it at 600 on back to 1k, and no it is not slow, when trying to figure out what is going on, particularly when you are in a no-shoot condition anyway, waiting for it to come back. It does not have to take away from shoot time at all.

I've also used it at our beloved Viale range and watched a switching condition come onto the range from the north, switching directions, with both a left to right and a right to left condition on the range at the same time, then watched it go full one way or the other, then watch the switch begin down at the number boards and work its way back to the firing line.

I find this somewhat easy to do with a large objective, quality scope like a Kowa which has critical focus and small depth of field. Like everything else, the ability to do this varies with the sum total of the conditions (light, humidity, direction, velocity), but it is often helpful to take this approach on wind reading.

FWIW I watch it at multiple vertical heights as well.

Janet Raab saw fit to send me an American Highpower Rifleman certificate as a result of it this week, so it may have some merit I suspect. Mine came from 800-1k with a 308/155/irons, not from 600 with a scoped magnum BTW.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Who shoots a scoped magnum at 600? I got my HM with a combination of .223/.308 service rifle and a 308 with irons. I don't usually use a scope, even in any/any. I shot a 6.5/284 after earning HM but it was too expensive, and although I won most every event entered, it was not much fun. Today, I don't own a scope. All of my shooting is with service rifle, with scores coming from events at Ft. Knox.

Since you have entered this thread, why don't you tell me the formula for accounting for winds at the target? BTW, congratulations on your accomplishment.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I'm not as distinguished as sterling but, I did make president's 100 in 1984 and, I quit shooting the match course right after I graduated high school and started chasing girls. I had a LONG love affair with smallbore from the age of 10yrs old and shot positional matches my entire youth.

Tactical matches seem the most fun these days even though I haven't been back into shooting THAT long yet. I still remember all the old tricks. These matches seem to bring everything together.... drop into a slung sitting postion and shoot that A zone at 600yds.... shoot supported targets at or past the 1000yd line... it's all good fun these days.... my 45yr old eyes aren't that good anymore for irons but, that's how I learned. I converted my M1A supermatch and scoped it with a bipod but, it's all in good fun. Mostly though, I shoot my bolt gun with the NSX on it. I find the challenge in doping the conditions..... with a NSX on a bolt rifle and me loading for it.... there's no challenge in putting the cross hairs on the target on a bipod... that's not marksmanship... marksmanship is something else completely.

I used to be somebody and, I'm still not bad but, there are a lot of people here that think that shooting off a bipod is doing something.... well, it is I suppose in it's own way and, I enjoy doing that now but, it's not to be confused with other forms of the sport.

Hey!!! I'd shoot a scoped magnum at 600.......... at a golf ball!!!! hahahah

Last weekend, it was pretty fun taking the rifle out and shooting IDPA torso steel at 1000 but, only head shots count. Other times 4" skeet targets are fun.

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm somewhat sorry Night11B4 has not responded to my question regarding how he does it, since I'd like to learn how to do it. Can anyone here explain how to account for multiple winds, including wind at the target? What's the formula for that? Night11B4 says he has "formulas", so, how about revealing them? </div></div>

Send "Trigger 50" a PM about the formulas.. Dean might be happy to discuss that with you.

 

[Graham]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

The wind near the target is not irrelevant, it's just not as important as reading the wind at maximum ordinate. At 600 yards when shooting NRA Hi-Power the wind at the target may not be enough of a factor to be useful to the shooter's calculations. But when shooting across a valley with a target on the upslope the wind at the target might be key to holding less (or more) wind than you think you need.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

How? Do you correct on a feeling or some sort of formula? When someone says they account for wind at the target, I just want to know how they do it. My belief is wind at the target, that's to say, it's effect, is meaningless, there is no relationship with external ballistics. Show me something that proves me wrong. As far as looking at wind this and there O.K., but what I want is a good notion for what it's doing at mid range. It seems to be working out for me.

 

[Graham]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How? Do you correct on a feeling or some sort of formula? When someone says they account for wind at the target, I just want to know how they do it. My belief is wind at the target, that's to say, it's effect, is meaningless, there is no relationship with external ballistics. Show me something that proves me wrong. As far as looking at wind this and there O.K., but what I want is a good notion for what it's doing at mid range. It seems to be working out for me. </div></div>http://www.precisionworkbench.com/pdf/FFS%20Manual%204.6%20-%20IV.pdf
See page 20.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?


There's nothing there regarding wind at target.

 

[Graham]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's nothing there regarding wind at target.</div></div>The wind at the target is the same as the wind at the last third. I mean, seriously: I don't think anyone here was talking about the breeze a few inches in front of the backboard.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Myself and my shooting partner shoot in south florida year round and suffer through mirage most of the year. At greater distances of 1000yds out to a mile lowering the magnification seems to help alot but at some point especially midday, target identification becomes unobtainable. the use of several flags stretching the distance can give you something to compare the mirage to as far as direction. Also as was stated previously, the use of good glass is extremely important. when I first started shooting many many years ago I would have put a leupold mark4 scope against anyone. How uninformed I was. A year ago I was spotting for my partner using an expensive Nikon spotting scope and made the mistake of looking through his Premier 5X25 rifle scope. I could'nt believe how much clearer everything was above my spotting scope. Dksd39 has a post on here that we video taped of mirage at our range and you can easily see what we go through here. Just spend as much time as you can and you will get the hang of it. But just watching wont do it. Make guestimates and then shoot the data to confirm what you see. good luck.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

The wind at or near the target wil indeed effect the bullet. In fact, the bullet will be effected by wind, atmospheric resistance, and other stuff as soon as it clears the muzzle; so wind near and far has a hand on the bullet; yet, the wind which we judge to determine the correct counter is the one at mid range. This is done for a multitude of reasons but mostly because it's reliable in all kinds of shooting conditions, and does not require accounting for what cannot be reliably accounted for.

 

[Graham]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the wind which we judge to determine the correct counter is the one at mid range. This is done for a multitude of reasons but mostly because it's reliable in all kinds of shooting conditions, and does not require accounting for what cannot be reliably accounted for.</div></div>On a flat shooting range, at 600 yards, then sure. But otherwise I disagree. That won't work for long range and extremely long range, and especially not when you must account for geographic features and topography.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Properly adjusting a high powered spotter will allow you to read wind at different distances. This way you can get multiple wind readings and determine the best windage adjustment. </div></div>

I almost wish this tread died.

But glad to see Graham (and others) also are fimiliar with the same techs.

Funny how I was bashed for some crazy thought that wind could vary over the distance of the flight of the bullet.

I completly understand what you are explaining Graham, some either dont believe or dont think it is worth considering. Thats fine, as I said before... Different strokes for different folks.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I don't think anyone said that the winds can't vary over the distance traveled by the bullet. I might be wrong, as there was a lot of back and forth bantering... in general I think most parties involved are experienced enough to know that much, at least.

As I read it, the question that SS posed was, what are these supposed formulas that you use for multiple winds of varying speeds at different points along the bullet's flight path? I still don't think I see anything you've put forth that others could take and try and test for themselves. 'Properly adjusting' is fairly vague. Are you going to continue playing secret squirrel with this, or are you going to share some useful details?

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I stated that winds can vary at different distances.

This was debated with a typo in the mix.

I clearly stated that multiple winds must be taken in to account if they appear... if you saw a 4 mph l>r @400 and a 4mph r>l @ 500, what would you adjust with a target at 800?

Its simple, but complex if you dont look at multiple ranges when reading wind... Does it happen much in rural enviorments, not much at all. But in urban enviorments and extreme topographical changes it is very common.

Learn to check wind at multiple distances when shooting in the enviorment that can subject you to these obstacles.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I'm not sure what the real answer to your arguments are as I read your post's. With great respect to your years of training and shooting I don't see how one could prove the other wrong. As anyone knows, the environment is ever changing and conditions are never static unless your shooting in a tube. Unless you have a no wind value, how can a formula be set up unless you had wind meters along several locations along the flight of the bullet, to acurately make measurements, everything is still just a guestimate. I know the more I shoot at my range the more comfortable I get with recognizing the wind for my area using indicators, natural or otherwise. I would feel very comfortable taking a thousand yard cold bore shot. Now take me out of my comfort zone and put me in an urban environment where I'm shooting from a building several stories up to another building and my comfort zone is going to go way down. No known indicators, no mirage etc. What if the only indicators are where your'e shooting from, and at your targets location how do you get the midrange wind speed to make your adjustment? Just trying to prove both your points and get answers to the questions you left me with.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the wind which we judge to determine the correct counter is the one at mid range. This is done for a multitude of reasons but mostly because it's reliable in all kinds of shooting conditions, and does not require accounting for what cannot be reliably accounted for.</div></div>On a flat shooting range, at 600 yards, then sure. But otherwise I disagree. That won't work for long range and extremely long range, and especially not when you must account for geographic features and topography. </div></div>


Sure, you can disagree, and you can proceed using any notion for what you think will get the job done. At distances beyond the maximun effective range of the ammunition, that's to say, having a good hit probability, it's just guessing anyway, especially considering slope, less than accurate range finding, and/or moving targets. Obviously, at insane distances. looking at the wind, any wind from any where, does not translate into ever actually knowing anything for sure. You don't have a computer big enough and/or enough time to understand how to counter properly for this stuff.

 

[Graham]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure, you can disagree, and you can proceed using any notion for what you think will get the job done. At distances beyond the maximun effective range of the ammunition...looking at the wind, any wind from any where, does not translate into ever actually knowing anything for sure. You don't have a computer big enough and/or enough time to understand how to counter properly for this stuff. </div></div>I am not talking about the last 10% of the bullet's supersonic range, I'm taking about large wind values.

A wind call is never about certainty. Estimating the wind is always an educated guess. That, given the significant effect it always has on the bullet, is what often makes it the number one variable in long distance shooting. But the problem of wind is not the same problem for Palma shooters as it is for NRA Hi-power shooters as it is for snipers.

At ASC in the spring we had fifity-five mile per hour winds. At 1185 yards we were shooting in a 35mph full value wind. There the wind at the target had a huge effect on the bullet - enough to miss the target itself. When the wind at the gun is 35mph, but the wind blowing up the valley at the target is 25mph full value the other way, you hold a lot less wind than you think you should. And the tops of the trees at the target help your wind call more than does the computer because you can't take the time to re-calculate for the follow-up shot. But even then, first I ran the numbers.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Knight,

I don't disagree with you on any particular point... but I'm still waiting to see this 'formula' you mentioned. If you mean that you mentally adjust the weight of the wind values you see down range based on where they are, then that's nothing especially new - I think most experienced LR shooters that can hit anything at all do that. 'Formula' implies something scientifically derived, that can be put down on paper and calculated - thats what attracted my interest to the debate. Thats what I want to see, thats what SS has asked for multiple times, and thats what you seem to keep avoiding answering.

Back to you.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

The very first time I ever competed beyond 300yd, I was out at 1Kyd, there was a squall coming in with stiff, gusting winds, and I still managed to eke out 7's and 8's. I heard the reference 25mph bandied. I honestly don't know what the wind was, but it was a danged serious moment for inclusion in my mental scrapbook.

I watched and listened to the other shooters, mainly Palma shooters, who were calling back and forth their adjustments, and watched the results of their efforts using my rifle scope and the target hit markers. Somewhere in the midst of all that, I got off the dime and started making my own 'bets'. I got some pleasant surprises, but I'd have been out in the cold if I hadn't been in the midst of nearly 200 of the country's best LR shooters.

My point here is simple. Sometimes, ya gotta drop back and punt.

Can one observe and compute a reliable POI? Probably, but IMHO, by the time one inputs the needed data, and crunches the numbers, the result is already obsolete. Conditions change, and IMHO, they nearly always change before you can to anything useful of a computational nature.

Shooting the wind isn't a wind meter/slipstick operation. It's a visible indicators/gut hunch process. Ask the greats, they'll tell you much the same.

Meanwhile, keep the pool table analogy in the back of your mind, and the wetware and mind's eye can at least visualize how the real world is chippin' away at your best efforts.

Greg

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Glad to hear some of your replies were as I hoped/guessed that their is no full proof formula for guessing wind dope other than time and experience in the midst of it. Maybe the word "formula" was not a good choice of words but I understand the posters thoughts. If I observe indicators that tell me wind can be coming in 2 directions and maybe at different values throughout the flight of the bullet I attempt to compensate by reducing or increasing windage in my head and shoot for what i think is the best guestimate for the affect of wind. Also I'm lucky enough to have a great shooting partner/observer and we see if we come up with the same data and then test our data by shot placement. More times than not if we're not in agreement I regret not having taken his dope calculations. But it is a learning process and trusting your spotter is something Ive learned to do. It just seems to me that I'm better at judging when I'm actually spotting than when I'm shooting. But there is no "FORMULA" in my head for that. I know what effect the wind will have on the bullet/rifle I am shooting at the time by data given in bullet weight vs load vs flight time vs wind and adjust accordingly. So I guess that data could be made into a "formula" (hate that word) and then add or subtract windage to what I'm observing. If that's not the way I should be doing it or there is a better way chime in and let the beatings begin. I have tough skin and judging from previous posts you guys have made, I know you have the experience.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But the problem of wind is not the same problem for Palma shooters as it is for NRA Hi-power shooters as it is for snipers.



</div></div>

Come on Graham, you know all shooting is the same, properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment and fire it using smooth trigger control. External ballistics are the same too, with the bullet flight effected primariy by gravity, drag, temperture and wind. Wind will have the greatest effect on trajectories, which is determined by the amont of time the bullet is exposed to it, its direction, and its velocity. And, not according to me, but by authorities on the matter who produce todays marksmanship docturne, wind will have the most effect on the bullet at the mid-range point, period.

 

[Graham]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Come on Graham, you know all shooting is the same, properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment and fire it using smooth trigger control. External ballistics are the same too, with the bullet flight effected primariy by gravity, drag, temperture and wind...</div></div>You've changed the subject.

I'm not saying that I shoot differently at longer ranges and I'm not saying that external ballistics don't apply at those ranges.

But I am arguing for use of more than the max ordinate point to judge the wind.

And I am most certainly saying that the world begins at 800 and/or 30mph, whichever comes first.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

How did you come to your basis of understanding regarding how to properly counter the effect of wind? Training? Personal experiences? What I profess comes only from modern military marksmanship doctrine, of which I am a disciple. My acceptance of this doctrine has helped me to get better scores in MR and LR than what would have been the result using my own notions about the subject which would be based on limited personal experiences with the subject.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

SS, not sure I understand your statement above. Military doctrine I believe is something we all follow in one way or another. Anyone who has written a book, wether military trained or otherwise has been influenced by the militarie's research and subject matter. I could study, read and memorize every piece of data available and not hope to get to your level without personal experiences,training and actually putting to use the material I know, without actually experiencing and shooting the different conditions. While competing and training makes you the sharpest and most current it will not totally prepare you for an actual callout/deployment shooting in an unknown area, with unknown topography. While I absolutely use everything I've trained with, its a whole different world than shooting a range where it seems the many senior competitors (as I have read in many of their previous posts) know which are the more difficult ranges to shoot at and which are not as tough condition wise.
I think this is what GRAHAM was alluding to when he said wind was different for Palma shooters, as it is for NRA-high power shooters, as it is for snipers.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

I just want to know where he's coming from. Seems there are many opinions about this matter. I read the wind at mid-range and that's it. My opinion is based on what I was told to do by authorities on the matter. It was the only thing I was told to do. I assumed a lot of research and science was put into what I was told. And, since what I was told to do does indeed work at SR, MR and LR, I am confident what I was told is reliable information. My own results confirm it. For others here that think they know how to do it, I would like to just know what's their basis of understanding, and since this stuff is indeed science, what's the friggin' formula?

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Sorry SS, can't help you there. If there was a (magical/Scientific) formula for wind you would have discovered it way before me. Sounds like your looking for the Holy Grail.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Where to read the mirage?

Here's the thing, I know a field solution, other than mid-range, cannot be presented by others here, at least for ones accounting for wind close to the target because it does not exist. However, there is a quick formula where mirage or other is read at mid-range to get a pretty good idea for MOA of drift. It's: range divided by 100, times MPH, divided by constant, equals MOA of drift.