Which case? 105 Hybrid at 3K out of a 22"ish barrel. 6x47L, 6XC, 6Creed, 6SLR...

G

Goin'Hot

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 14, 2008
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Central, Ohio
#1
I'm having my FN re barreled and I want to run a 22" (ish) barrel. I want to get the Berger 105 Hybrids to 3k without being on the edge. I know the 6 Creed is all the rage here but, If I don't need the extra boiler room of the larger case to reach my goal in the shorter barrel then...

I'm going with a Rem Varmint 8 twist and the rifle will live with a SWR Harvester on it. I was initially going to go with the SLR case but, I think it's too big for the application. I've always been a fan of the x47L case but, I don't know if it'll have enough room to get me there.

I have QL but it has no data for the 6 Creed or the SLR case. I can also find no "real world" data to put in QL for the x47L or the XC cartridge.

Has anybody barreled a 22" 6mm and obtained 3k?

What are some real OAL for the above listed cartridges with the 105 Berger Hybrids?

Can anybody give me case volume and length for their 6 Creed or SLR? Anybody put the info in QL already?
 
#3
I run a 22" 6x47L with the Berger 105 hybrid. Current load is 39 grains of H4350 @ 3040 fps. I can definitely go hotter if needed but it is nice to have a load that I know will work without pressure signs no matter what. My previous load with my last (2) 24" barrels was 3180 and 3215 fps albeit a bit on the hot side. That being said I just go a new reamer in for a 6 creed. Being that I can buy factory 6 Creed brass from GAP and eliminate a step from the reloading process if good for me. The x47 has treated me well but we will see.

 
#4
Great question, when my current 6.5x47L barrel goes south I'm going to be looking to do about the same thing. Considering I have a lot of 47L brass I may go with it in the 22" range. Not much help for your question but looking forward to the insight you get on this thread.
 
#6
Captain Kirk said:
Whats wrong with a straight 243....I'd opt for the 6CM if those were my choices
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention, I'm running this out of AICS mags. The 243 case is too big for my application. I don't need all that "boiler room" for such a short tube...

Thanks for the replys so far. I'm glad to see you're getting that velocity out of your 22" 6x47L. Do you happen to know your OAL? I'd like to play around in QL with an actual length.
 
#7
OAL: 2.645" for my 6x47 w/105 hybrid

Goin'Hot said:
I forgot to mention, I'm running this out of AICS mags. The 243 case is too big for my application. I don't need all that "boiler room" for such a short tube...

Thanks for the replys so far. I'm glad to see you're getting that velocity out of your 22" 6x47L. Do you happen to know your OAL? I'd like to play around in QL with an actual length.
Click to expand...
 
#8
My 24" 6xc would run 3125 pushing hard with ~40gr H4350. It would do 2900 with a compressed charge of 42.5gr H1000. This barrel lasted 1600 shots.

My 26" 6SLR will do 3200 pretty easy with 43gr H4350 or 45gr H4831sc. Tops out at 3000fps with 48gr H1000.

If I were setting up a 22" 6mm, looking for 3kfps, I'd choose the 243 or 6SLR.

I guess you have to ask yourself if it's better to use less powder at higher pressure, or more powder with less pressure to achieve a given velocity. I think lower pressure is better. Isn't that the idea behind the 6.5 SAUM?
 
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#9
HodgdonExtreme said:
If I were setting up a 22" 6mm, looking for 3kfps, I'd choose the 243 or 6SLR.

I guess you have to ask yourself if it's better to use less powder at higher pressure, or more powder with less pressure to achieve a given velocity. I think lower pressure is better. Isn't that the idea behind the 6.5 SAUM?
Click to expand...

The problem is, more powder requires a longer barrel or a faster powder. I just ran some numbers in QL with a 243 case at 54 gr of capacity (published SLR volume) and it predicts a maximum velocity of ~2985 out of a 22" tube.

Using the above listed data from the "XLR" 6x47L it predicts ~3035 out of the same setup. This is what makes me think I need a smaller "high pressure" case to reach my goal in a short barrel.

My QL numbers are only theoretical so, it's nice to see some real world numbers. However, the program does show the velocity is more likely with the little Lapua case which is verified above.
 
#10
Theoretically you can do it even with the Dasher. Pressure ain't free - you will save money with powder per round, but tear up brass and barrels. Only you can answer what fits your needs. I personally own a dozen of 6mm's (6ppc through 6 Rem), but lately just settled on two - if 6mmBR can't do it, just go with 6SLR, simply because of brass availability and ease to tune.
 
#11
Just for info... I have made my own QL library for odd cases. Use at own discression.

http://dasher.nl/QL/jdk_cases.vol

Copy it into the Quickload/data/calibers folder and select it in QL. Creed, 6XC etc are all in there. Most are existing cases from QL filtered to what I shoot or have shot, and some cases that were not in there so I could compare.
 
#13
Not a 22", but my 24" 243 with 105 hybrids do: 3040-44.5 gr 4831sc, 3085-41.8 gr h4350, 3147-42.5 gr h4350. I have 3 out of 4 243 that use ai mags, a tikka, a remage, and a savage. The remage is a 24" criterion barrel, originally it was 28". It was instock and all the criteria was right except the length. Jim at NSS wanted me to shoot it before i had it cut, if it was a bad barrel and i chopped it might be hard to get recourse from criterion. It was a hammer and had 3 loads that would bughole. Got chrony data before and after loosing 4", granted velocity loss might be more significant going from 24-20". I lost 87 fps total with the h4831sc load and 63 fps with h4350. I figured that the slower h4831sc burn rate would loose more going shorter and i was right. The ave speed i lost in the 4" was figured from a couple different powder charges of each powder. 43.5&44.5 of h4831sc and 41.5&42.0 of h4350. Accuracy/ harmonics of loads did not change, meaning the best shooting loads before shot just as good after cut. I was using 107 smk with h4350 and 105 vld hunting with h4831sc at the time, currently use 105 hybrids with h4350
 
#14
I should mention that my freebore allows the bullet's bearing surface to stay above nk/shoulder junction. I load for a 15-20 thou jump in my various243s. I have about 40 thou of mag clearance to chase throat in unmodified ai mags. 3 of my 243 are prefits, a lothar walthar/savage, a criterion/remage, and a sinarms brux/savage. All have the same freebore specs as the oal are within 5 thou of each other with same bullet . The tikka was done by a local br smith and his 243 reamer was close think he throated it about 10-15 deeper to match my other chambers.
 
#15
I run a 20" x47, 123 skinnies @ 3023fps
so as your using cases with more boiler room and lighter bullets, plus longer barrel. Should be non issue
The 308 case and its family of misfits all suffer from a piss poor case design and OAL issues in a short action.
the new cases CM, XC and X47 all give pert much same performance without issues of using 308 type parent case.

IF your unable to find data for x47 or Xc, your not looking very hard. there is a metric $hit ton of load info on both.
 
#17
Jedi said:
I run a 20" x47, 123 skinnies @ 3023fps

IF your unable to find data for x47 or Xc, your not looking very hard. there is a metric $hit ton of load info on both.
Click to expand...

I didn't know they made a 6mm 123gr bullet? I can find plenty of data for both cartridges. Most of the data is on much longer tubes and half the time, people don't even post a barrel length.
 
#18
3000 fps with a 105 in a shorter barrel is still a walk in the park for 6x47L. Personally I'd just pick the high node and call it good at whatever fps that ends up being. I ran 2925 fps with 115 DTACS on a worn barrel for 6 months and never felt like I was outgunned by the other guys, especially considering that I won the series that year.

Suggestion...Have the barrel throated for max OACL with the bottom of the baring surface of the bullet .030" above the neck shoulder junction to take advantage of all the case capacity. The case can handle pressure like no other but I use longer barrels with medium pressures. I'm still using the same brass I bought 7 years ago with primer pockets on 99% still tight. I lost count how many times they've been reloaded (going on 20 cycles), this and on my 4th and 5th barrels now. Part of the secret of getting good brass life is using custom dies that barely size the brass and also annealing.

After reading about the brass problems and loose primer pockets that 6 creed is having I wouldn't even consider it.

Looking back I couldn't have made a better decision all those years ago in choosing a 6mm caliber cartridge.

Wade kicking ass with his 6x47L in the PRS should be a clue how capable and consistent the little case is.
 
#19
Goin'Hot said:
The problem is, more powder requires a longer barrel or a faster powder. I just ran some numbers in QL with a 243 case at 54 gr of capacity (published SLR volume) and it predicts a maximum velocity of ~2985 out of a 22" tube.

Using the above listed data from the "XLR" 6x47L it predicts ~3035 out of the same setup. This is what makes me think I need a smaller "high pressure" case to reach my goal in a short barrel.
Click to expand...

Did you perform this simulation at equal pressure for both cartridges???
 
#20
HodgdonExtreme said:
Did you perform this simulation at equal pressure for both cartridges???
Click to expand...

No. I ran the pressure within 1000 psi of the max listed value. They list max on the 243 win to be 60200, 6x47 to be 63100.


steve123 said:
Suggestion...Have the barrel throated for max OACL with the bottom of the baring surface of the bullet .030" above the neck shoulder junction to take advantage of all the case capacity. The case can handle pressure like no other but I use longer barrels with medium pressures. I'm still using the same brass I bought 7 years ago with primer pockets on 99% still tight. I lost count how many times they've been reloaded (going on 20 cycles), this and on my 4th and 5th barrels now. Part of the secret of getting good brass life is using custom dies that barely size the brass and also annealing.
Click to expand...

I've had the same experience with the brass in my 6.5x47L. These little cases are tough! I just thought if there was a reason for a larger case, now would be the time to find out about it. Thanks for the contribution.
 
#21
Frank Green tells me he's getting just a few fps shy of 3k with his 23" 6 Creed with 41.8grs of H4350, same amount of Hybrid 100V will surely put you over that in a 22" bbl. I'll be testing some of that powder in my 28" 6 Creed, should put my into 3100 plus with ease with these DTACs. And, the 6 Creed Hornady brass I'm using is excellent, no loose primers pockets here.
 
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#22
I have run two different 6x47 barrels at 22" 3k with 105's will not be an issue and your brass will last you until you loose it, or shoot the barrel out. Seems to be a good node with this case and 105's around 3030, you can go over 3100 but there is really no need. I did a 25" 6x47 on my last one, I won't do that again, not enough difference to make up for the poor handling with a can. Getting that barrel back from the smith soon it will now be 20". Will see how the 105's do out of it, I am guessing there won't be much difference at all.

my brother in law runs a 6xc, basically the same as the 47 with large primers, I personally would not do a 6 creed only because the lapua brass is much better.
 
#25
22" 6x47 Bart 1-8 on Bighorn Action

After this last match in Oklahome, have 1350ish rounds on barrel. My first 6mm.

35.8 grains varget what I settled on. 2980 fps.
No pressure at all. Worked load up to 36.5 wit no pressure but don't want to be anywhere near max pressure having shot my last 2 matches in rain storms. and don't have OAL off hand.

Only picked this cal because I needed a match rifle going asap (my 260 went down), wanted 6mm, and the lapua brass was only thing I could find that moment. Was originally going to do 243, but only thing could find was 7-08 brass and sick of sizing down in steps. I imagine all 6 choices would be good and you wont be able to tell much difference.

Go with what you can find.

Luck,
DT

ps - Going to work a load up with IMR4350 next (almost out of Varget and cant find anymore)
 
#28
JGorski said:
Quite a difference from what Copper Creek is getting.
Chronographed at 2980 fps with a 23" Barreled GAP 10
Click to expand...

<a href="http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/cchiavoni/media/6cm3010fps.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb391/cchiavoni/6cm3010fps.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6cm3010fps.jpg"/></a>

Don't know what to tell ya...

LOT#6CM041913
 
#30
bbcellars said:
<a href="http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/cchiavoni/media/6cm3010fps.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb391/cchiavoni/6cm3010fps.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6cm3010fps.jpg"/></a>

Don't know what to tell ya...


LOT#6CM041913
Click to expand...

Well, a GAP-10 is an auto, isn't it, could be why the change? or, you have one of those "fast" barrels. :)
 
#32
JGorski said:
Well, a GAP-10 is an auto, isn't it, could be why the change? or, you have one of those "fast" barrels. :)
Click to expand...

I'm going to say most gas guns will be around 50-100fps slower then a bolt gun. You lose some with the gas system. His barrel could be fast......could also depend on what reamer/throat spec. etc...his barrel was done with vs. other guns as that could make a difference also. There are a lot of variables. A difference from one gun to the next of up to a 100fps. is considered normal.

Jgorski had my gun on the money. It's not a 22" barrel but a 23" in 6 Creedmoor. My average velocity with less than 50 rounds on the barrel at the time was 2997fps. 41.7-41.8gr. of H4350 and 105gr. Hybrids.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
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#33
After the replys here and a couple very helpful pm's, I've decided to go with a 6X47L at a length of 21.75". I'll update with some data once I get the rifle and a load worked up for it.

Thanks for all the info.
 
#34
The simple answer to this question would have been 6slr. It is both simple to load and accurate as heck. And should get you 3k without much effort with the 105s. 3 years ago i went through this very question. I spent months compairing cartridges before ordering the reamer for the 6slr. It is just simple.

Xdeano
 
#36
My AE is currently out being rebarreled in 6XC. I went through several forums and web sites prior to making the choice. Factory supported brass was part of the reason. Although the XC brass can be formed out of several other cases, even the 6.5CM brass works. Since the AI AE bolt is hardened it is tough to bush for small primers, or I might have gone with the 6X47 Lapua. There are loads of people complaining about Hornadys primer pockets.

With a 26" barrel there won't be much problem of that 3000 FPS figure. Being able to run a little less powder should help with barrel life. I plan on using RL17 or 4831 pushing 105 Hybrids, the reloading data I've seen supports the estimated FPS since guys are claiming that and more from shorter tubes. Then you look at Tubbs and all he has put into the development of the XC round, there must be something about the round that works.

Good luck on your choice.
 
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