Which piece of equipment is more important?

[CybrSlydr]

I did my first ever PRS competition earlier this year* and had a lot of fun! Only problem is I was woefully unprepared - so much so, I didn't have any dope for my rifle. I'm aiming to fix that this year as I want to go to more competitions this year with a goal of getting a top 15 spot.

I'm going to stick with Hornady 4DOF for my ballistics calculator as there are so many opinions out there that it doesn't really seem like there's any difference between the apps.

My question for you folks is if I could get one, and only one of the following, which would be more useful?

A Kestrel 5700 non-elite or a Garmin/LabRadar chronograph?

I'm thinking the Kestrel as my assumption is that having better weather data will give a better dope vs muzzle velocity measurements.

Is this correct or am I off base?

Thanks!

 

[Tokay444]

Kestrel.

 

[Conrad]

Kestrel. You can either validate your drops and come up with velocity in the kestrel or just ask someone to let you shoot over there Garmin and you’re set. Latter is preferable.

Kestrel will be much more useful for learning wind and setting up your dope and game plan for stages. Particularly when you use it to get wind and target azimuths and let it do the calcs for you.

 

[Sheldon N]

Kestrel would be more beneficial.

If budget is tight, buy used. You'll have enough funds left over to buy a used magnetospeed sporter chrono as well. A quick glance on the forum here and I found a used 4DOF non-elite Kestrel for $375 and a used Sporter for $70.

 

[lte82]

What Sheldon said. ^^

 

[psharon78]

I shot about 5 years of matches before I bought a kestrel. In order to get your dope, you'd be better off with a chronograph.

 

[Tokay444]

I shot about 5 years of matches before I bought a kestrel. In order to get your dope, you'd be better off with a chronograph.

How did you place?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You can get a good solution if you have good inputs but if you don't know your MV then good luck. A chrono is an absolute must IMO. You can do without alot but a not having accurate muzzle velocity means all of your inputs into a solver is marginal at best. The Garmin is a must buy IMO. Being able to throw it on even during a match to verify MV and es is very valuable to diagnosis gun issues.

And if you are serious about shooting you will want both which includes an Elite AB kestral to take advantage of custom curves as well as target card.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Kestrel. You can either validate your drops and come up with velocity in the kestrel or just ask someone to let you shoot over there Garmin and you’re set. Latter is preferable.

Kestrel will be much more useful for learning wind and setting up your dope and game plan for stages. Particularly when you use it to get wind and target azimuths and let it do the calcs for you.

Which are wastes of time and money. With a AB kestral or app you unlock custom curves which makes validating dope almost pointless. You will be within a tenth out to the max ranges we shoot in PRS. But without an accurate MV....none of that is reliable or predictable.

Waste components and burn up barrels like it's 1975.

You can get by with phone app and accurate mv. The best kestral in the world will be worthless without accurate inputs...with mv being one of the most important along with bc.

 

[Emerson0311]

Which are wastes of time and money. With a AB kestral or app you unlock custom curves which makes validating dope almost pointless. You will be within a tenth out to the max ranges we shoot in PRS. But without an accurate MV....none of that is reliable or predictable.

Waste components and burn up barrels like it's 1975.

You can get by with phone app and accurate mv. The best kestral in the world will be worthless without accurate inputs...with mv being one of the most important along with bc.

The Garmin is great, but there no need of every shooter owning one. I tell groups of friends who shoot to share the cost and use of the unit.

 

[Tokay444]

You can use someone else's chronograph anywhere. It's much harder to share a Kestrel.

 

[lte82]

With a AB kestral or app you unlock custom curves which makes validating dope almost pointless. You will be within a tenth out to the max ranges we shoot in PRS.

Custom drag models are really only valid if you shoot over AB's doppler, and only for that lot of bullets in that specific barrel. I have a handful of CDM's from shooting over the doppler and it's pretty shocking how individual each combination can be. I would not blindly use someone else's CDM unless you've tested it, it has potential to be worse than a box stock G7 value. All that to say, you can't really just "unlock" this feature... Plus you still need to go verify and true at distance to at minimum account for scope tracking error/variation. That's less of an issue with higher velocity and bc at shorter distance, but a non-negotiable if shooting longer range.

PS. The doppler calculated average G7s and CDM models give virtually identical results.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Custom drag models are really only valid if you shoot over AB's doppler, and only for that lot of bullets in that specific barrel. I have a handful of CDM's from shooting over the doppler and it's pretty shocking how individual each combination can be. I would not blindly use someone else's CDM unless you've tested it, it has potential to be worse than a box stock G7 value. All that to say, you can't really just "unlock" this feature... Plus you still need to go verify and true at distance to at minimum account for scope tracking error/variation. That's less of an issue with higher velocity and bc at shorter distance, but a non-negotiable if shooting longer range.

PS. The doppler calculated average G7s and CDM models give virtually identical results.

This is wrong. What you are talking about is PDM (Personal Drag Model). (Custom Curves) is the culmination of all the data within the AB library and Doppler testing to come up with a banded BC that best matches a particular bullet.

The only downside is there are certain bullets that due to not being popular or new that may not have a Custom Curve. I had this issue with the norma bullets last year, but was able to true the G7 with Hornady 4DOF and AB to get a very accurate G7.

For any bullet that AB publishes a CC for, you can almost be guaranteed it will be accurate, assuming all your other inputs are correct. Usually within a tenth or less out 12-1400 yards with 6 and 6.5mm bullets.

Virtually every bullet that is popular in PRS, has a custom curve that is made up of tens of if not hundreds of thousands of data points, and is continuously checked and revised if need be.

G7 and Custom Drag models (like CC and 4DOF) cannot give the same results. They can convert to a value but the very nature of how different ballistic coefficient models and banded BC models work means they can't. A g7 model is velocity dependent so its either an average or based on the highest velocity, which is why its inferior to banded.

 

[Changed]

You don't NEED either of those items.

HOWEVER, if you are picking one the Kestsrel is the most helpful.

I will add that the AB mobile app is pretty great.

 

[plt228]

I’d buy a garmin first.

I’ve got a garmin and an old kestrel 4000. Those two and the app on my phone gives me what I need to shoot.

I’m only doing rimfire matches but if I needed weather info there are always a half a dozen kestrels being checked during the matches. To me it’s easier to ask weather conditions than borrowing a chrono during zeroing at a match.

You’ll end up buying both along with a lot more if you stay in this game long enough.

 

[lte82]

This is wrong. What you are talking about is PDM (Personal Drag Model). (Custom Curves) is the culmination of all the data within the AB library and Doppler testing to come up with a banded BC that best matches a particular bullet.

For any bullet that AB publishes a CC for, you can almost be guaranteed it will be accurate, assuming all your other inputs are correct. Usually within a tenth or less out 12-1400 yards with 6 and 6.5mm bullets.

There are some massive variations between particular bullets in the PDM library. Why? Lot to lot variation, barrel twist, bore conditions, etc. If the custom curve is just the average of all of that, even more reason to go verify at distance.

 

[clefairy]

Just get both, you know you want them.

 

[psharon78]

Getting the weather data off the closest tower will be good enough for shooting in PRS. A good chronograph like a Magnetospeed or the newer Garmin, Labradar, will be far more beneficial. Once you get your muzzle velocity, plug it into the solver and you'll be able to make impacts.

Furthermore, a chrono will give you your standard deviations. This is critical when coming up with a load. I've seen wild deviations of muzzle velocity and not been able to see those at 100 yards. Critical pieces of equipment that I cannot shoot a match:
Scope
Rifle
bidpod
rear bag
chronograph.

The other equipment is nice to have. It's nice to have a tripod and binos. It's nice to have a kestrel. But not knowing how fast your bullets are flying, and not knowing the velocity consistency will cost you.

 

[Tokay444]

You can determine your velocity with a Kestrel. A chronograph wont give you a drop chart.

 

[Oldloser]

I say Garmin.

You want to know your MV and the ES for your ammo. REALLY know it. Then use the 4DOF CDG and Axial Form Factor and its zero angle feature.

You can use the sensors on your phone to get accurate pressure using an altitude app, and windy app will ping the nearest weather station to get your wind data. Then plug into 4DOF.

You can get a $70 kestrel if you have to know the wind every time. But after a bit of shooting and after your first shot, you will know the wind. And there is not a lot of places where the terrain will not affect the shot.

 

[Tokay444]

I say Garmin.

You want to know your MV and the ES for your ammo. REALLY know it. Then use the 4DOF CDG and Axial Form Factor and its zero angle feature.

You can use the sensors on your phone to get accurate pressure using an altitude app, and windy app will ping the nearest weather station to get your wind data. Then plug into 4DOF.

You can get a $70 kestrel if you have to know the wind every time. But after a bit of shooting and after your first shot, you will know the wind. And there is not a lot of places where the terrain will not affect the shot.

Knowing ammo ES is about as redundant as it gets for a PRS shooter.

 

[Oldloser]

Knowing ammo ES is about as redundant as it gets for a PRS shooter.

If you stay on full size IPSECs at 200 yards and leave the match after the second stage.

 

[camocorvette]

Kestrel with ab if you have the range and time to true your dope.

Garmin if you don't have the range to true dope all the time.

But you are gonna want both. I'd say Garmin first. You can use a plethora of free apps for Ballistics until you upgrade.

 

[Tokay444]

If you stay on full size IPSECs at 200 yards and leave the match after the second stage.

Ok, so let’s say you know your ES. Your TRUE ES. Now what? What can you possibly do in a PRS match to benefit from that knowledge?

 

[CybrSlydr]

Would your answers change if I told you I was just using factory ammo and not handloading?

 

[Tokay444]

Would your answers change if I told you I was just using factory ammo and not handloading?

Mine wouldn’t, but I had already deduced that.

 

[clefairy]

If money is an issue, you can find some really cheap magnetospeeds in px. Get weather data on your app and plug the mv in.

Either way your fucked, this hobby is a sinkhole for cash.

 

[R_A_W]

You can use someone else's chronograph anywhere. It's much harder to share a Kestrel.

4dof ballistics are perfectly fine, you can get the wind speed standing behind someone holding their kestrel in the air, all other environmentals from weather app

I squad with some guys that have a Calypso or something like this on their tripod in addition to their 5700

@CybrSlydr being in WY you'll ultimately want something to get wind speed, but having MV is mandatory anywhere

 

[Oldloser]

Ok, so let’s say you know your ES. Your TRUE ES. Now what? What can you possibly do in a PRS match to benefit from that knowledge?

Having an ES under 25 over 30 rounds is one of the preconditions to hitting 1 MOA targets reliably at all distances and most wind conditions.

Getting your ammo processes nailed down do that is one of the precursors to that precondition. A Garmin will provide you the means to test your processes.

Knowing your MV is a precondition to true your drag curve. A Garmin will take care of that.

Knowing your MV at the start of the match and applying a temp correction as the day goes on is another.

Knowing your MV has slowed down tells you your barrel is going out and helps you update your true drag curve as the barrel ages.

Most people spend way too much time on their kestrel and not enough time looking at the wind downrange and taking the data from the shots they already sent that day. And I can run what ifs on 4DOF a lot easier than my kestrel.

I take my kestrel out first thing and then maybe on the next to the last stage. I have done a lot of matches were it only came out first thing and then stayed in my bag the rest of the day.

 

[Tokay444]

4dof ballistics are perfectly fine, you can get the wind speed standing behind someone holding their kestrel in the air, all other environmentals from weather app

I squad with some guys that have a Calypso or something like this on their tripod in addition to their 5700

@CybrSlydr being in WY you'll ultimately want something to get wind speed though

A chronograph is something he’ll use once on a given lot of ammo. A firing solution is something he’ll need on every stage. He gave us two options.

 

[Tokay444]

Having an ES under 25 over 30 rounds is one of the preconditions to hitting 1 MOA targets reliably at all distances and most wind conditions.

Getting your ammo processes nailed down do that is one of the precursors to that precondition. A Garmin will provide you the means to test your processes.

Knowing your MV is a precondition to true your drag curve. A Garmin will take care of that.

Knowing your MV at the start of the match and applying a temp correction as the day goes on is another.

Knowing your MV has slowed down tells you your barrel is going out and helps you update your true drag curve as the barrel ages.

Most people spend way too much time on their kestrel and not enough time looking at the wind downrange and taking the data from the shots they already sent that day. And I can run what ifs on 4DOF a lot easier than my kestrel.

I take my kestrel out first thing and then maybe on the next to the last stage. I have done a lot of matches were it only came out first thing and then stayed in my bag the rest of the day.

So your answer is nothing? There is zero you can do with the knowledge of your ES on a PRS stage.
You can use a Kestrel to fine you MV, starting with the number on the box as a baseline.

 

[R_A_W]

A chronograph is something he’ll use once on a given lot of ammo.

Even as a "chronic non-chronographer", I don't agree with that

A firing solution is something he’ll need on every stage.

I'm going to stick with Hornady 4DOF for my ballistics calculator

It'll give him perfectly usable firing solutions for PRS if his inputs are good

 

[Tokay444]

Even as a "chronic non-chronographer", I don't agree with that



It'll give him perfectly usable firing solutions for PRS if his inputs are good

How often do you chrono factory ammo?

 

[R_A_W]

every time i'm shooting factory ammo, unless I'm just screwing around by myself

handloads... <1/4 as often as I probably should

 

[Tokay444]

Sounds excessive for a “chronic non-chronographer.”

 

[R_A_W]

I haven't chrono'ed my 6.5cm prs load in >1000 rounds

i still think he needs the chrono first

 

[Tokay444]

But you chrono 100% of the factory ammo you shoot.

 

[Tokay444]

Get an average MV over 20-30 shots and move on. You can’t change it. It is what is.

 

[Oldloser]

So your answer is nothing? There is zero you can do with the knowledge of your ES on a PRS stage.

It's Precision Rifle Series. Emphasis on Precision.

Shooting a PRS stage is about first round impacts, then seeing the shot and staying on plate.

First round impacts are driven by ammo quality, dope, zero and shooter ability to manage data.

If your ammo is shit, your rifle all over, and you don't have data, then your before the match prep was poor.

So showing up with no prep, you will have a dumpster fire of a stage, especially with 1-2 MOA targets in wind. You will be playing a game of chance.

A garmin is the essential piece of gear to show up prepped. No doubt about it.


As for the exact stage execution:

First round hit is about KNOWING your rifle and your data. Nothing you can do if you have not prepped.

To stay on plate, takes perfect elevation and a near perfect zero. Why? The shooter has to know IN ADVANCE what their ES and zero are doing. And they have to have their drag curve down perfectly.

I know for fact what to do after my first and successive shots with my rifle on any PRS stage. Because my ES is so damn good.

With an ES of 20 and a zero of .2 MOA I can make the adjustments I need to make with 100% confidence. It's not a guess.

Anytime you want to do a friendly round of horse on 1/2 MOA plates from 100 yards out to 1000 yards just let me know.

 

[CybrSlydr]

Honestly didn't expect this thread to pop off like this. lol

I do eventually want to get both, I'm just trying to prioritize the important stuff first. I already got the ColeTac dope card for my optic, so I figured the next logical thing would be to get either the Kestrel or the chrono - just wasn't sure which would be more valuable.

Shooting some SMK 140grs from AAC, I was able to get, what I thought, was a pretty darn good group indoors at 100yds (of course, I don't know if I was using the app correctly or not), so my rifle at least likes the AAC 140gr.

So I think my fundamentals are acceptable. Here's the thread I made about the competition I shot - https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...n-rifle-hoedown-my-first-competition.7216494/

 

[Tokay444]

It's Precision Rifle Series. Emphasis on Precision.

Shooting a PRS stage is about first round impacts, then seeing the shot and staying on plate.

First round impacts are driven by ammo quality, dope, zero and shooter ability to manage data.

If your ammo is shit, your rifle all over, and you don't have data, then your before the match prep was poor.

So showing up with no prep, you will have a dumpster fire of a stage, especially with 1-2 MOA targets in wind. You will be playing a game of chance.

A garmin is the essential piece of gear to show up prepped. No doubt about it.


As for the exact stage execution:

First round hit is about KNOWING your rifle and your data. Nothing you can do if you have not prepped.

To stay on plate, takes perfect elevation and a near perfect zero. Why? The shooter has to know IN ADVANCE what their ES and zero are doing. And they have to have their drag curve down perfectly.

I know for fact what to do after my first and successive shots with my rifle on any PRS stage. Because my ES is so damn good.

With an ES of 20 and a zero of .2 MOA I can make the adjustments I need to make with 100% confidence. It's not a guess.

Anytime you want to do a friendly round of horse on 1/2 MOA plates from 100 yards out to 1000 yards just let me know.





View attachment 8554236

How do you adjust for your ES? Hold over for the slower shots and under for the faster ones? How do you know which are gonna be slow and which are gonna be fast?

 

[JustSendit]

How do you adjust for your ES? Hold over for the slower shots and under for the faster ones? How do you know which are gonna be slow and which are gonna be fast?View attachment 8554290

Damn dude we got it; you don’t agree with getting a chronograph first.

OP I recommend getting the magneto and a kestrel, having both is very helpful.

 

[Tokay444]

Damn dude we got it; you don’t agree with getting a chronograph first.

People are making arguments that make absolutely zero sense. What good is knowing your ES if you can’t do anything with it?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

How often do you chrono factory ammo?

Every time you shoot. Please stop. Men are speaking.

 

[JR1200W3]

Having an ES under 25 over 30 rounds is one of the preconditions to hitting 1 MOA targets reliably at all distances and most wind conditions.

Getting your ammo processes nailed down do that is one of the precursors to that precondition. A Garmin will provide you the means to test your processes.

Knowing your MV is a precondition to true your drag curve. A Garmin will take care of that.

Knowing your MV at the start of the match and applying a temp correction as the day goes on is another.

Knowing your MV has slowed down tells you your barrel is going out and helps you update your true drag curve as the barrel ages.

Most people spend way too much time on their kestrel and not enough time looking at the wind downrange and taking the data from the shots they already sent that day. And I can run what ifs on 4DOF a lot easier than my kestrel.

I take my kestrel out first thing and then maybe on the next to the last stage. I have done a lot of matches were it only came out first thing and then stayed in my bag the rest of the day.

Some of what you're saying is actually untrue. The first version of "truing" was correcting MV based on known BC's. I used to get BCs from Bryan Litz on here before he made it big. I would change my MV to true my ballistic computer, which was ATRAG at the time. This was 2008 before any reliable chronograph existed. Once we had Magneto Speeds we started to true BCs.

As far as ES's under 25 to hit 1 moa targets"at all distances", that's just untrue as a statement of absolutism. Mathematically. Having an ES of 30 doesn't effect your ability to hit 2 moa PRS standard targets at 800.

I would agree that a ballistic computer needs to come first, but honestly we're splitting hairs. Last I checked this isn't a third world country. You really need a Garmin Xero, a Ballistic computer, and a LRF. If you can't do that, pick one and start accumulating the other two.

 

[TwistedOneinSeven]

Buy neither and spend all your money on ammunition and practice, a lot.

Every guy at a PRS match will loan you a Garmin at sight in if they know you're a newbie (unless they're a dick) if you really want to check you MV.

I had to look it up but it appears AAC 140SMK would refer to a "factory ammunition" with the website stating the MV is 2700fps.
So a chronograph is a waste of time and money at this stage (you can't change what speed the MV actually is or the ammo SD/ES).
In your Hornady 4DOF app create a profile with a 140SMK projectile at 2700fps
Go to a range with steel at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 and shoot it.
Change the muzzle velocity in 4DOF so that the DOPE matches what it actually took for you to hit eg. you had to dial 2.6 to hit at 400 so your MV is actually say 2675fps
The 4DOF app is brilliant. There's some hacks around like a guy called Austin that say they use 4DOF over a Kestrel for DOPE.

As for the stupid comment about "How many matches have you won?" when someone commented they shot for 5 years without a Kestrel.
Seen plenty of guys win, top five, etc that don't have a Kestrel.
What they have is an understanding of what their rifle and ammo do. That comes from shooting, a lot.
Seen plenty of guys dig lots of dirt because their Kestrel said the wind hold was 0.8mil yet they don't practice taking note as they shoot, "Is that an approximate 3, 6 or 12mph wind I can feel/see right now as I pull the trigger...." or even, "Wow! That dust just showed the wind has switched from left to right....." or spotting where you actually missed (yep, that's more ammo to practice for).

Based on your new;
Practice lots now. ie. buy LOTS of ammo and get to know what your rig does for elevation dials and in various wind conditions.
Practice building solid positions
Practice sending rounds and figuring out what you need to do to get a hit (a Garmin or Kestrel don't teach you that).
Buy all the gadgets later unless you have lots of money.

Also,
Saw two guys have phone/app failures at a match on the weekend.
A good idea to have a hard copy of your guns data printed out just in case all else fails.
JBM is a brilliant tool to input your projectile, velocity, weather, altitude, etc so you have a paper backup.

JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

www.jbmballistics.com

Just another opinion, as usual.

 

[ma smith]

You can get buy without either a chrono or a kestrel.

Not ideal but possible, anyone who says otherwis is full of BS.

The main problem here is reductivism. You can get around kestrels and chronos by shooting tons of ammo verifying your dope/book. But ammo is expensive, and so are "extra" range days (travel, food, gas, ammo) or train-up days (all the same plus extra hotel and fees). Not to mention your time.

At some stage chronos and kestrels are about saving time/money/ammo, hence they arguably pay for themselves. But that time isn't typically on day 1 with new shooters. Theres a bit of experience and financial committment needed to get to that point, IMHO.

So if you aren't there yet OP, its fine to buy just 1 or the other and just do left foot-right foot down the road of progress...until the answer is more clear...and or the time/finances etc are just right.

 

[beetroot]

I say Chrony, with the caveat of not shooting in an area with huge temperature/weather swings in the seasons.
But both in reality are luxury items and shouldn’t be a priority until things like bipods, glass, backpack, game changer etc are sorted out.

I shoot all my matches with Strelok Pro or even (shock horror) hard data.
A kestrel would be nice for measuring wind and atmospherics but I don’t change altitude much at the matches I attend, and temp swings at max would be 40f but more like 20f.
A kestrel is great for learning wind speeds and help with learning wind conditions, but I’ve never shot a match where just getting wind direction and speed is enough to ensure hits on target. Maybe on a square/flat range, but add in any terrain features and wind at the kestrel is not enough.

A chrony is important for load development or more importantly 22lr ammo testing.
Personally I find long range rimfire a massive pain in the ass (as targets shrink and distance stretch the ammo game becomes more and more important), but a chrony is helpful for troubleshooting and seeing what your ammo is doing.

 

[Tokay444]

Every time you shoot. Please stop. Men are speaking.

No.

 

[Buford Boone]

This was 2008 before any reliable chronograph existed.

Nope, incorrect.

"Reliable" chronographs have been around since the 70s.

Perhaps they were not convenient but they were certainly reliable.

BTW, you are not the only one to make this error. I've heard two or more, highly respected, people say the same thing.