Rifle Scopes Who allows you to demo scopes? Or at least has a liberal return policy?

[Jefe's Dope]

I've always been under the impression you have to actually purchase a scope to try it and if you don't like it, you're SOL unless you can sell it. Which usually means for less than you paid. Sometimes quite a bit less.

So, does anyone know of a dealer/manufacturer/reseller that has demos to try or possibly allow you to return a scope you don't like? Maybe for store credit at the very least?

 

[Chickentoast]

All the gun stuff seems to hold value pretty well - I guess all is relative, but certainly not boating, flying, or even skiing as far as hobbies go.

Brownells does offer what you want, but they tend to list at retail and may or may not have the inventory you seek. Buy discounted and sell for a loss, then buy another discounted probably comes out the same in the end.

 

[HousePlant]

If you're in Atlanta area, you can go to Kenzy's Optics and check out what they have.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

If you're in Atlanta area, you can go to Kenzy's Optics and check out what they have.

I'm the Denver/Metro area and frequent Mile High Shooting Supply often. It's not a matter of getting my hands on. More of a use for an actual match, outside use kinda thing. Demo some scopes in the field.

 

[db2000]

All the gun stuff seems to hold value pretty well - I guess all is relative, but certainly not boating, flying, or even skiing as far as hobbies
“ Buy discounted and sell for a loss, then buy another discounted probably comes out the same in the end.”

^^^ I second this if possible. It’s kinda a rental fee if you lose $200. 10% let’s say. 5% on a ZCO. $1000 and under probably only losing $100 if it’s a popular scope

 

[Jefe's Dope]

^^^ I second this if possible. It’s kinda a rental fee if you lose $200. 10% let’s say. 5% on a ZCO. $1000 and under probably only losing $100 if it’s a popular scope

Definitely have considered that.

 

[HousePlant]

I'm the Denver/Metro area and frequent Mile High Shooting Supply often. It's not a matter of getting my hands on. More of a use for an actual match, outside use kinda thing. Demo some scopes in the field.

I see. I tend to just ask a guy who has something I want at an event if I can eyeball it and maybe fire a shot but not going to be able to use something for a whole match. That's one reason I posted elsewhere about scope makers using scope cams to show use of their reticles in practice.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

I know they aren't a big name here per se but Maven Optics offers a demo program where you give them your card #, they ship you a scope, spotter or binos from their loaner program and if you like it you keep it and they charge your card. If you don't you send it back and you are only out a shipping charge on your card.

 

[ChrisAU]

Amazon is great if you have Prime for just handling and checking one out. Not sure about actual use, but they aren’t going to get a microscope out to look for ring marks either.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

The issue would be most probably aren’t willing to have their card charged the full amount and then having it refunded when it’s returned.

I.E. if a company sends you a demo Zco that’s $4k, it doesn’t matter if it’s a demo or not, the replacement value is $4k. So for them to send it to you, you’re gonna have to give them $4k to hold onto in the event you break it or don’t return it.

Not to mention it being almost impossible to affordably check the internals for damage upon return.

I.E. shooter A breaks something that’s not obvious and it’s not noticed until shooter B has the optic. And then there’s a debacle over who actually damaged it.

And opening the optic up or putting it through tests every time it’s returned is just not gonna work.

And then there’s the arguments of charge backs and such when shooter damages optic, gets charged and then files complaint/charge back with their bank or card issuer.


TLDR: it sound simple from the consumer side, but from a retail side, if the optics are of any significant dollar amount, it’s a nightmare.

 

[MOUNTIC]

What optics are you trying to get behind? If Tangent or ZCO we can coordinate a time to shoot together at my gun club and put a couple scopes on your rig. If you decide you want one, you can either keep one you shot with or I'll get you a new one.

Gun club is in Watkins and goes out to 500m on steel or paper.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

The issue would be most probably aren’t willing to have their card charged the full amount and then having it refunded when it’s returned.

I.E. if a company sends you a demo Zco that’s $4k, it doesn’t matter if it’s a demo or not, the replacement value is $4k. So for them to send it to you, you’re gonna have to give them $4k to hold onto in the event you break it or don’t return it.

Not to mention it being almost impossible to affordably check the internals for damage upon return.

I.E. shooter A breaks something that’s not obvious and it’s not noticed until shooter B has the optic. And then there’s a debacle over who actually damaged it.

And opening the optic up or putting it through tests every time it’s returned is just not gonna work.

And then there’s the arguments of charge backs and such when shooter damages optic, gets charged and then files complaint/charge back with their bank or card issuer.


TLDR: it sound simple from the consumer side, but from a retail side, if the optics are of any significant dollar amount, it’s a nightmare.

I'm fully aware of this as a former retailer. But all great points.

Does anyone think there's a market for scope rentals? For this purpose. You could get a inventory of popular scopes in mounts and rent them out. Insurance would be have to be include in every rental. This could help with the finger pointing as you would have already paid for the insurance and the rental company would just submit a claim on your behalf. Similar to car rentals, boat rentals, sports equipment rentals, yard machinery rentals. Clearly the logistics of this have been solved. You just need to apply it to scope rentals.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

What optics are you trying to get behind? If Tangent or ZCO we can coordinate a time to shoot together at my gun club and put a couple scopes on your rig. If you decide you want one, you can either keep one you shot with or I'll get you a new one.

Gun club is in Watkins and goes out to 500m on steel or paper.

I appreciate the offer. I'm not really looking at a particular scope, just an idea I was wondering about. They do high dollar ski and ski boot demos all the time. I think this business model could be applied to scope rentals/demos. Someone like MHSS could easily enter this space. Someone like me, would take a lot of leg work and some capital.

 

[Chickentoast]

^Seems the biggest impediment would be shipping - call it 150 bucks to and fro with insurance. So, say a 3K scope, rent for 300 bucks for a month? 150 bucks marginal revenue, >20 months just to re-coup costs assuming perfect demand. Doesn't work, at least in my mind. As a customer, I would rather buy the 3K optic and sell it for 2500-2750 after a non-predetermined amount of time. And as a business, 20 month ROI on an asset that depreciates? The depreciated net ROI might be more like 5+ yrs.

Just buy what you want to try and re-sell if it isn't kismet.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

^Seems the biggest impediment would be shipping - call it 150 bucks to and fro with insurance. So, say a 3K scope, rent for 300 bucks for a month? 150 bucks marginal revenue, >20 months just to re-coup costs assuming perfect demand. Doesn't work, at least in my mind. As a customer, I would rather buy the 3K optic and sell it for 2500-2750 after a non-predetermined amount of time. And as a business, 20 month ROI on an asset that depreciates? The depreciated net ROI might be more like 5+ yrs.

Just buy what you want to try and re-sell if it isn't kismet.

All good points and I really haven't done any math. Just an idea.

 

[MCHOG]

If you're in Atlanta area, you can go to Kenzy's Optics and check out what they have.

I am. Never heard of them. Thanks for the info.

 

[spamassassin]

A few random near-cliches that might explain why we all get to go through the expensive and time consuming buy-try-sell-buy-try-sell... routine and why there's not something like a rental outfit:

1. Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.

2. No skis take rocks like rented skis.

3.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Also, rentals and more specifically demos support sales. You'd need a inventory of NEW scopes to sell once someone decided to buy. I don't think they'd want the 'demo' that everyone else fingered.

Maybe someone at MHSS is watching and implements a demo program where they can get the manufactures/distributers involved for some demos to demo.

 

[CSTactical]

We have thought about it, there was one company a few years back doing this as well and they are gone now. IMO, it's not worth it as Feniks said as there is way too much risk and potential finger pointing. So many people here buy scopes, try them out and sell them on the PX that it would make more sense to do as much research as possible and narrow it down to the few you're willing to invest in that won't hurt when you sell them at a loss.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Also, rentals and more specifically demos support sales. You'd need a inventory of NEW scopes to sell once someone decided to buy. I don't think they'd want the 'demo' that everyone else fingered.

Maybe someone at MHSS is watching and implements a demo program where they can get the manufactures/distributers involved for some demos to demo.

What exactly will happen is the "prospective customers" will test them out at the nice helpful place that has a high overhead to be able to do all the B.S. letting folks test stuff they want to do and wasting tons of staff time and demanding high paid knowledgeable staff spend a bunch of time with them and waste their whole day.

Then the "customer" will be like, "Thank you very much I'm going to go think about it and make a decision"
And then go hunt for the cheapest zero service, zero inventory, lowest price online place they can find, like the price whores they truly are.

On the whole, customers have turned into price whores these days and get what they deserve.

 

[carbonbased]

http://lensrentals.com

They rent camera lenses that cost more, for example, than most all AI’s ($13k+ $70k). Use this place as a biz model.

And of course there are movie rental houses and that caca is mucho expensive and the clientele is relatively flush, so not real applicable.

I’m not sure the demand is there? Maybe? Damn hunters (biggest customer base) are so frickin’ cheap.

Edit: haha they rent a $70k cine lens:

Lensrentals.com - Rent a Canon Cine-Servo CN20x50 50-1000mm T5.0-8.9 EF

www.lensrentals.com

Price:

Canon CINE-SERVO 50-1000mm T5.0-8.9 with EF Mount

Buy Canon CINE-SERVO 50-1000mm T5.0-8.9 with EF Mount featuring Covers up to Super 35mm Sized Sensors, 50 to 1000/75 to 1500mm Zoom, ENG-Style Zoom, Focus, Iris Servos, For Broadcast or Cinema Shooting Styles, 180° Focus Ring with Knurled Grip, Double Focus Markings in Feet and Meters...

www.bhphotovideo.com

 

[Jefe's Dope]

What exactly will happen is the "prospective customers" will test them out at the nice helpful place that has a high overhead to be able to do all the B.S. letting folks test stuff they want to do and wasting tons of staff time and demanding high paid knowledgeable staff spend a bunch of time with them and waste their whole day.

Then the "customer" will be like, "Thank you very much I'm going to go think about it and make a decision"
And then go hunt for the cheapest zero service, zero inventory, lowest price online place they can find, like the price whores they truly are.

On the whole, customers have turned into price whores these days and get what they deserve.

Probably the best post in this thread. You nailed it and It didn't even occur to me until you did. 100%

*I have/had no intentions of trying to do this as a business. I was truly looking for some place that did demo scopes, etc.

 

[Chickentoast]

What exactly will happen is the "prospective customers" will test them out at the nice helpful place that has a high overhead to be able to do all the B.S. letting folks test stuff they want to do and wasting tons of staff time and demanding high paid knowledgeable staff spend a bunch of time with them and waste their whole day.

Then the "customer" will be like, "Thank you very much I'm going to go think about it and make a decision"
And then go hunt for the cheapest zero service, zero inventory, lowest price online place they can find, like the price whores they truly are.

On the whole, customers have turned into price whores these days and get what they deserve.

^Yes, but a re-seller is the same whore, producing nothing and surviving on their used car salesmanship.

The only way this works is as a club. It would save us no money, but we'd have lots of cool shit, including smokers and grills, maybe some fermenters or even a small still, as well as all the cool shooting stuff. I'd be into that! But no one cool lives near me

 

[Secant]

Rent Outdoor Gear does it for spotting scopes, binoculars, thermals, rangefinders, tripods, and other stuff.

 

[carbonbased]

NOW Jefe wants liberal. I see how it goes.

(edit: this is a [bad?] joke about the post’s headline? Ok?)

 

[Burdy]

Buy used and negotiate as hard as you can. Be patient. If you do this right you may lose only shipping or you may even make a buck or two. I can't tell you how many times I've bought used, haggled, didn't like the product and took the time to take better photos and write better descriptions than the person I bought it from and made money on my "error." The problem is most people are impulsive...and then lazy, so they lose money.

 

[Glassaholic]

Buy used and negotiate as hard as you can. Be patient. If you do this right you may lose only shipping or you may even make a buck or two. I can't tell you how many times I've bought used, haggled, didn't like the product and took the time to take better photos and write better descriptions than the person I bought it from and made money on my "error." The problem is most people are impulsive...and then lazy, so they lose money.

I’m with Burdy here, buy used and negotiate, if you don’t like the scope or reticle or whatever just resell and you will not lose much. Someone tried scope rentals a while back, they are not around anymore, the cost to rent a scope will be more than you’d lose if you buy used.

 

[beetroot]

Having access to the PX here is a gift from the heavens, you can damn near buy what ever you like and sell it again for basically the same price.
Most products these days have such good warrantys the risks of buying used are very very low.

Living outside of the US and having a near non-existent resale market for high end glass means you have to be damn sure you know what you want.

 

[CSTactical]

When you have people like this in the world, "Stuntin for the 'gram" I wouldn't want to being in any rental business...

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-n...-s-owner-150-k-ar195243/pictures.html#1065029

 

[AXEFORCE6]

Maven will

DEMO OPTICS

Try before you buy: it makes sense to us. Find out more about the Maven demo program and select the demo optics you want to test out in the field.

mavenbuilt.com

 

[carbonbased]

Eh, don’t you think fully charging their CC with a deposit negates most of the risk?

If not, I’m not sure how these lens/camera retail outfits stay in biz for decades.

I think one of the big impediments to handling scopes would be the repair side of things. If you read the Lensrentals blog you find out that they test each lens that comes back with test targets and maybe a collimator? Plus, they’re doing constant repairs.

They don’t just sent it back to Nikon or Canon and wait 1, 2, 6 months. They have to be able to rent out that unit again soon.

So finding skilled techs might be challenging. And the test and repair equipment is very expensive.

 

[Chickentoast]

When you have people like this in the world, "Stuntin for the 'gram" I wouldn't want to being in any rental business...

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-n...-s-owner-150-k-ar195243/pictures.html#1065029

Terrible example. Destroying a Tesla is a great thing for society and humanity. Destroying a ZCO would be a travesty.

 

[CSTactical]

Eh, don’t you think fully charging their CC with a deposit negates most of the risk?

If not, I’m not sure how these lens/camera retail outfits stay in biz for decades.

I think one of the big impediments to handling scopes would be the repair side of things. If you read the Lensrentals blog you find out that they test each lens that comes back with test targets and maybe a collimator? Plus, they’re doing constant repairs.

They don’t just sent it back to Nikon or Canon and wait 1, 2, 6 months. They have to be able to rent out that unit again soon.

So finding skilled techs might be challenging. And the test and repair equipment is very expensive.

Negative, you probably have not been back and forth for hours/days/weeks over a chargeback where the other party is at fault.
Our time is way to valuable over that mess. Many firearm business are running lean margins and barely enough labor. Not to mention that you have the banks and big tech against the firearm community that puts us at a huge disadvantage. For how many high end products we move, it's a miracle that there's only 3 1/2 people here doing everything.

If that business model is profitable and sustainable, I'd see a larger company than us providing that service.

*Edit* Plus the lens/camera market might have much greater margins and they don't have their equipment attached to firearms.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Also, those lenses are like $10K+. And mostly used by professionals for professional work. I can easily see a rental market vs. $3K scopes.

 

[carbonbased]

Also, those lenses are like $10K+. And mostly used by professionals for professional work. I can easily see a rental market vs. $3K scopes.

That’s the rub, eh? If the weird weird world of firearm CC/banking “regs” can be overcome, if you can find repair techs, if you can obtain sustainable margins, and if you can get the capital lined up (and insurance, ow), is there really enough volume to support the endeavor?

In other words, what is the Fudd to Stud™ ratio in our world? hahaha

Maybe all the volume will be via the blister pack scopes. Fudds sweatily comparing Tasco’s WhiteTail X-Ecutor Eliminator Death Cubed™ vs Barska’s near mythical Tines b’ Slaughtered Brah BDC Sniper™.

 

[W54/XM-388]

*Edit* Plus the lens/camera market might have much greater margins and they don't have their equipment attached to firearms.

Also the market of professional photographers who need to be able to rent an expensive lens for a project, is huge compared to the number of folks that want to rent out a high end scope to test and see if they like it.

Add to that, the use of lenses are often in demand for decades before it stops being requested and they sell it off.

 

[Chickentoast]

Negative, you probably have not been back and forth for hours/days/weeks over a chargeback where the other party is at fault.
Our time is way to valuable over that mess. Many firearm business are running lean margins and barely enough labor. Not to mention that you have the banks and big tech against the firearm community that puts us at a huge disadvantage. For how many high end products we move, it's a miracle that there's only 3 1/2 people here doing everything.

If that business model is profitable and sustainable, I'd see a larger company than us providing that service.

*Edit* Plus the lens/camera market might have much greater margins and they don't have their equipment attached to firearms.

The problem is it's not a firearms or optics business. It's reselling of commodity products in the information age. Mousetraps, riflescopes, cars, penis pumps, same shit. If you don't actually produce anything, you are leaching from, not contributing to - society and/or culture. It's niche wannabe wal-mazon - how long will the producers allow that to continue - as long as margins allow.

Sadly, with ego and perception driving the ever shallow value system, marketing and reselling can still be lucrative. However, anyone in a marketing or reselling gig with an ounce of integrity should be trying to figure out how to become productive instead.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The problem is it's not a firearms or optics business. It's reselling of commodity products in the information age. Mousetraps, riflescopes, cars, penis pumps, same shit. If you don't actually produce anything, you are leaching from, not contributing to - society and/or culture. It's niche wannabe wal-mazon - how long will the producers allow that to continue - as long as margins allow.

Sadly, with ego and perception driving the ever shallow value system, marketing and reselling can still be lucrative. However, anyone in a marketing or reselling gig with an ounce of integrity should be trying to figure out how to become productive instead.

I think you probably have a very simplistic and very wrongly biased view of why we don't just have everything made by a couple big companies and then all the serfs can go labour in the fields and buy from the giant factory store.

It sounds very much like you are saying that only the original company should be selling anything to the end user and anyone who resells is some how "not with integrity" or some such B.S.

Smaller outfits buying inventory from multiple sources and then reselling it to end users has been an important feature of this country and building wealth and providing good paying jobs, everything from your corner grocery store and gas stations, to online vendors and retail stores.

You may like the idea of only being able to buy something from the factory at the factory advertised price, when it's available from the factory, and at whatever terms the factory sets and that's that. However DON'T go spouting some B.S. such as your lines: "However, anyone in a marketing or reselling gig with an ounce of integrity should be trying to figure out how to become productive instead."

You sound very much like an entitled...

 

[Krob95]

@Jefe's Dope , you've seen how many scopes I've bought and sold. I usually lose out on shipping or a few hundo because I bought the optic new or threw in a mount since I won't need it due to different tube size. But honestly that's the way to do it. Buy and sell used until you find a setup you really like. Out of the 12 optics I've had in the last two years, three were purchased brand new from a retailer. It's a good way to see different scopes and you can use them how you please until you’re ready to try something different.

 

[CSTactical]

The problem is it's not a firearms or optics business. It's reselling of commodity products in the information age. Mousetraps, riflescopes, cars, penis pumps, same shit. If you don't actually produce anything, you are leaching from, not contributing to - society and/or culture. It's niche wannabe wal-mazon - how long will the producers allow that to continue - as long as margins allow.

Sadly, with ego and perception driving the ever shallow value system, marketing and reselling can still be lucrative. However, anyone in a marketing or reselling gig with an ounce of integrity should be trying to figure out how to become productive instead.

Wow So you think all manufacturers should sell direct and that re-sellers don't provide value? I don't even know where to begin...

 

[Krob95]

The problem is it's not a firearms or optics business. It's reselling of commodity products in the information age. Mousetraps, riflescopes, cars, penis pumps, same shit. If you don't actually produce anything, you are leaching from, not contributing to - society and/or culture. It's niche wannabe wal-mazon - how long will the producers allow that to continue - as long as margins allow.

Sadly, with ego and perception driving the ever shallow value system, marketing and reselling can still be lucrative. However, anyone in a marketing or reselling gig with an ounce of integrity should be trying to figure out how to become productive instead.

Weird take but go off champ, elaborate some more, let's see where this goes

 

[Chickentoast]

I think you probably have a very simplistic and very wrongly biased view of why we don't just have everything made by a couple big companies and then all the serfs can go labour in the fields and buy from the giant factory store.

It sounds very much like you are saying that only the original company should be selling anything to the end user and anyone who resells is some how "not with integrity" or some such B.S.

Smaller outfits buying inventory from multiple sources and then reselling it to end users has been an important feature of this country and building wealth and providing good paying jobs, everything from your corner grocery store and gas stations, to online vendors and retail stores.

You may like the idea of only being able to buy something from the factory at the factory advertised price, when it's available from the factory, and at whatever terms the factory sets and that's that. However DON'T go spouting some B.S. such as your lines: "However, anyone in a marketing or reselling gig with an ounce of integrity should be trying to figure out how to become productive instead."

You sound very much like an entitled...

Not at all. I think it was best when vertical integration didn't exist, and all levels throughout the supply chain were able to make livable margins/wages. As you said, that is what made the middle class, and to great degree, propelled the country, and I agree completely. However, that is no longer the case, and will not be again, unless/until full societal meltdown.

Fighting over crumbs that Bezos has left uneaten is reprehensible. The more we produce, the less we rely on others, and the less grasp ego/perception has on our lives. Less demand for unnecessary crap. More freedom.

On an individual level, I don't see what argument there is for being a reseller vs being a producer. Everyone should prefer to produce something than resell, and should strive for that, regardless of circumstance.

 

[CSTactical]

Not at all. I think it was best when vertical integration didn't exist, and all levels throughout the supply chain were able to make livable margins/wages. As you said, that is what made the middle class, and to great degree, propelled the country, and I agree completely. However, that is no longer the case, and will not be again, unless/until full societal meltdown.

Fighting over crumbs that Bezos has left uneaten is reprehensible. The more we produce, the less we rely on others, and the less grasp ego/perception has on our lives. Less demand for unnecessary crap. More freedom.

On an individual level, I don't see what argument there is for being a reseller vs being a producer. Everyone should prefer to produce something than resell, and should strive for that, regardless of circumstance.

People pay big money for the knowledge and experience of others regardless of the industry...

 

[Krob95]

@CSTactical guess you better listen to chickenshit er toast here and produce your own optics. How dare you!
I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion, but holy fuck this is a bad one.

 

[CSTactical]

@CSTactical guess you better listen to chickenshit er toast here and produce your own optics. How dare you!
I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion, but holy fuck this is a bad one.

We can't, Bezos won't allow us...

 

[Chickentoast]

Wow So you think all manufacturers should sell direct and that re-sellers don't provide value? I don't even know where to begin...

Sorry if you took it personally/offensive. I didn't make either of those assertions, though.

 

[Chickentoast]

@CSTactical guess you better listen to chickenshit er toast here and produce your own optics. How dare you!
I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion, but holy fuck this is a bad one.

Please fault what I actually wrote rather than your interpretation of it.

 

[carbonbased]

The problem is it's not a firearms or optics business. It's reselling of commodity products in the information age. Mousetraps, riflescopes, cars, penis pumps, same shit.

Good Sir! As a founding member of the Center for Self-Love and a tri-state retailer of self-love devices with a spotless BBW rating, I am removing my right hand’s white glove and <slap slap slap> I challenge you to a duel!

Twelve paces; flesh-colored didlos at dawn!

 

[Jefe's Dope]

@Jefe's Dope , you've seen how many scopes I've bought and sold. I usually lose out on shipping or a few hundo because I bought the optic new or threw in a mount since I won't need it due to different tube size. But honestly that's the way to do it. Buy and sell used until you find a setup you really like. Out of the 12 optics I've had in the last two years, three were purchased brand new from a retailer. It's a good way to see different scopes and you can use them how you please until you’re ready to try something different.

And the benefit of being able to finger your scopes. Thanks buddy! TT, ZCO, Leica... You have impeccable taste, that's for sure.

 

[majvret]

I've always been under the impression you have to actually purchase a scope to try it and if you don't like it, you're SOL unless you can sell it. Which usually means for less than you paid. Sometimes quite a bit less.

So, does anyone know of a dealer/manufacturer/reseller that has demos to try or possibly allow you to return a scope you don't like? Maybe for store credit at the very least?

I bought a Leupold Mark 4 that would not focus near as well as my others and they took it back no questions a few months ago.