Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

[jheat308]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Fine line is you oversteping your power. Not to sound smug but Why do you feel the need to ask for papers anyway SniperCJ?

 

[Cornholeo]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

For all the checks made by lodal LEO at their ranges for papers, how many illegal NFA items have you found? Is this a growing problem that is under the radar that needs to be addresed? Do you also run checks to make sure no one who is prohibited from owning a firearm is on the range? If not, IMO you are not so much concerned with whose legal at the range as you are showing a little muscle.
As others have said, if you come up and want to look at my toys and shoot or pawn at them , cool and I have had some really great conversations on the range like that.

 

[Cornholeo]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jheat308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It’s a fine line when you have power not to step over or get big chested about it but that being said if ever asked for papers I will tell them NO. </div></div>

WTF!? What 'fine line'?? Its either legally owned or its not. I ask for the paperwork, you pull it out of your pocket, I go away. Jeezuz, whats so hard about that?? No chest thumping or overstepping of authority involved. </div></div>

Yes, but unfortunately not every officer is keen to the Class 3 game. They are misinformed and owning a SBR or suppressor must make you a hitman for the mob. You either run into that officer that IS a gun enthusiast and knows his stuff, or you get Barney the donut eating mall cop hero that just wants to polish his badge and look good on paper. </div></div>

Yup.

 

[bm11]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

If a cop comes to your door and asks to look around to confirm you don't have any illegal drugs, and this comes without any warrant or reason to suspect you, do you let him in to prove your innocence, as you have nothing to hide? Afterall, it probably is easier that way, right? I mean, you don't have any drugs in your house, so why wouldn't you let him in?

 

[Rockfish Dave]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a cop comes to your door and asks to look around to confirm you don't have any illegal drugs, and this comes without any warrant or reason to suspect you, do you let him in to prove your innocence, as you have nothing to hide? Afterall, it probably is easier that way, right? I mean, you don't have any drugs in your house, so why wouldn't you let him in? </div></div>

You're beating a dead horse unfortunately.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a cop comes to your door and asks to look around to confirm you don't have any illegal drugs, and this comes without any warrant or reason to suspect you, do you let him in to prove your innocence, as you have nothing to hide? Afterall, it probably is easier that way, right? I mean, you don't have any drugs in your house, so why wouldn't you let him in? </div></div>

I dont take my drugs to the range and invite questions as to their legality. If you leave your drugs at home out of sight its one thing, if you openly display them you invite inquiry.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jheat308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fine line is you oversteping your power. Not to sound smug but Why do you feel the need to ask for papers anyway SniperCJ? </div></div>

Hey if youre Joe Blow and your stuff looks to be production items, I likely wouldnt ask. If your suppressor looks like a coffee can arrangement and youre dressed like a militia member, well,you know.

Profiling? Yeah probably, but Ill ask anyway. or at least I'llmake a phone call to someone in uniform who will ask.

 

[346ci]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess I'm destined to take a trip downtown one day in bracelets......cause I'll be damned if I'm stepping back off my rights one iota just to appease some cop....that is most likely gonna be off duty anyway.....otherwise what's he doing at a public range? </div></div>

Gawd I wish you were in Texas. I'd love to give you your destiny.
</div></div>

LOL. I would imagine Lofty would be out the next day and you and your dept would have a hell of a lawsuit on your hands. Would all of that chest beating be worth your carrer? Just because you felt the need to ask for his papers when if he was acting in good judgement, you have no reason to ask?

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Yeah, actually I do. If youre openly displaying a Prohibited Weapon defined by the State of Texas, I DO have the right AND the responsibility to inquire as to its legality. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[windermike]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Our local sheriff department opens up their range a couple of times a month for the general public. I have been a few times with a suppressor. Never has one of them asked for my papers. When you go to get LEO sign off, the sheriff just signs them damn papers. No qeustions about why you need something like that. Now I think he and his deparment are true defenders of our rights. The next county over their sheriff carries a glock 18 as his duty weapon. I love GA. I am not here to bash LE. I just don't want to be harrassed. When we have some cop come on and tell to eat shit and smile, I think I will pass.

 

[346ci]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yeah, actually I do. If youre openly displaying a Prohibited Weapon defined by the State of Texas, I DO have the right AND the responsibility to inquire as to its legality. What is so hard to understand about that? </div></div>

Thanks for showing everyone what we are talking about and thank God you don't visit any of the ranges or fun shoots I go to.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Cops have an expression, "You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." Just because you're a law-abiding citizen doesn't mean you can't be cuffed and stuffed, especially if you've gone out of your way to antagonize the LEO.

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If youre openly displaying a Prohibited Weapon defined by the State of Texas, I DO have the right AND the responsibility to inquire as to its legality. What is so hard to understand about that? </div></div>SniperCJ is making sense: If you are in a public place with what would otherwise be a prohibited weapon it's an LEO's job to inquire. Most won't give you a hard time while doing it, though.

I have been at the range with off-duty cops who don't care and don't ask - because they are off-duty. But if something happens where you are, and the cops are called, and you happen to be present with an open and obvious NFA item (or you get pulled over for an unrelated infraction while in possession of one) then be prepared to give the cop what he needs in order to do his job and let you proceed on your way.

When dealing with cops who are on duty and doing their job it pays to remember that everything that happens during the stop is not always about you.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Thank you. Thats all I was trying to say

 

[Mschloss]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

From ATF's site:

Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. <span style="font-weight: bold">This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers</span>. It is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">suggested</span></span> that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#owner-evidence

Depending on my mood, I would just show the LEO my copy, or on a ornery day might just ask him to call his friends at the BATF. If at any point I was threatened with arrest I would comply and go from there.

 

[Cornholeo]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cops have an expression, "You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." Just because you're a law-abiding citizen doesn't mean you can't be cuffed and stuffed, especially if you've gone out of your way to antagonize the LEO. </div></div>

I throw the bullshit flag on this one. Because I did not show proper respect as defined by who? How about me feeling harassed by said LEO? That arrogance is what gives LEO a bad image in aolt of people's eyes.
I personally have never had a local LEO ask me for anything. I have talked to some on the range in Fl. and Al. and we just talked about our toys and treated each as.....wait for it.....citizens not subjects.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornholeo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cops have an expression, "You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." Just because you're a law-abiding citizen doesn't mean you can't be cuffed and stuffed, especially if you've gone out of your way to antagonize the LEO. </div></div>

I throw the bullshit flag on this one. Because I did not show proper respect as defined by who? How about me feeling harassed by said LEO? That arrogance is what gives LEO a bad image in aolt of people's eyes.
I personally have never had a local LEO ask me for anything. I have talked to some on the range in Fl. and Al. and we just talked about our toys and treated each as.....wait for it.....citizens not subjects. </div></div>

Where does he say anything about 'proper respect'. He said '...gone out of your way to antagonize...'. and no, im not calling not producing your ATF paperwork "antagonizing"...

A perfect example of beating the rap, not the ride is Lofty. A LEO asks for his ATF paperwork. He refuses to show it. He gets arrested for Possession of Prohibited Weapon. He goes to jail, bonds out, and at some point shows the DA Prosecutor his ATF paperwork. The charge is dismissed. So instead of a 10 second contact he gets arrested, has his gun impounded, misses work, loses money on a lawyer to get bonded out, has to get his gun out of impound. Sounds like a good trade to me.

 

[Cornholeo]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

...and if you are there to be the NFA monitor, why not just apply for that job instead?
I will agree to disagree on this one. Some LEO will look for this and IMO if you do not conform you must be "antagonizing" while others share the the range with their fellow shooters.

Just wondering, how many people have you stuffed and cuffed for be antogonistic and how many for illegal possession of a NFA item? Just a ballpark on the numbers is cool.

 

[Matt.Cross]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Another cop ego vs. law abiding citizen thread? This is pure stupidity...

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt.Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another cop ego vs. law abiding citizen thread? This is pure stupidity... </div></div>I agree that the discussion is pointless to the extent that people here fail to realize (or recognize) how the State and Federal laws work and and what officers are required to do when performing their official duties.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornholeo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and if you are there to be the NFA monitor, why not just apply for that job instead? </div></div>Patrol officers in Dallas are charged with the enforcement of all Texas state statutes.

Not every inquiry is a violation of anyone's rights, constitutional or otherwise.

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I see both sides of the argument here but to me it's just that much easier to pull that copy of the form 4 or 1 out and say here you go sir it's right there and legal. And go on about my day. If I was continually questioned I would get the superior officer sent down, and then place a phone call to the ATF explaining my harassment of local LE. A field agent might or might not come out to investigate.

I have been in a room with some registered SBR's w/ suppressors attached and ATF agents walking around. They are very cool about the items and often want opinions on gear and so on. All you have to do is be polite and courteous. They will do the same for you.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I have never been asked by LEO to show papers, thou i have been asked if i have it. Once i offer to show it they just say nah your good.
So if asked by LEO its not a big deal, why start a pissing match.

However i will NOT comply with same request from an RO, which to me is way more important issue.
Alot of R/O are well overbearing self righteous diks drunk with some kinda assumed authority trip.

 

[Pflyinguy]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

CJ...Please clarify, are you asking for the paperwork while you are on duty on a call for service at a local range in your city and jurisdiction, or.... are you off duty at the range approaching other shooters asking for them to present thier paperwork because you see them in possesion of an NFA item?

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

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...can't beat the ride...

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I would fully comply with the officer but let it be known that I disagree with them shaking me down for my federal tax documents. I might get his info and file a complaint and if I was so inclined force the issue with a lawyer. As the employers of LEOs it's sometimes our job to educate them in regards to constitutional rights.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Profiling? Yeah probably, but Ill ask anyway. or at least I'llmake a phone call to someone in uniform who will ask. </div></div>

This statement indicates your off duty and asking, i hope i,m wrong
Did you also ask every one to show you their drivers license and proof of insurance for vehicles they drove to range?
I do hope i have misinterpreted what your attempting to convey?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Profiling? Yeah probably </div></div>
And you wonder why LEO are viewed with such disdain ... really

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I might get his info and file a complaint and if I was so inclined force the issue with a lawyer. As the employers of LEOs it's sometimes our job to educate them in regards to constitutional rights.</div></div>What would be the complaint? What constitutional right is being violated?

 

[Jedi]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yeah, actually I do. If youre openly displaying a Prohibited Weapon defined by the State of Texas, I DO have the right AND the responsibility to inquire as to its legality. What is so hard to understand about that? </div></div>

Thanks for showing everyone what we are talking about and thank God you don't visit any of the ranges or fun shoots I go to.

</div></div>

+1000

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I might get his info and file a complaint and if I was so inclined force the issue with a lawyer. As the employers of LEOs it's sometimes our job to educate them in regards to constitutional rights.</div></div>What would be the complaint? What constitutional right is being violated? </div></div>

The complaint would be that an officer was off duty, at my range, and shook me down for my federal tax forms. He doesn't have the authority to do so. Some LEOs may think they're gods but they are not.

The "forcing of the issue" would be in an effort to force policy in the department in regards to NFA/class III. Policy that is acceptable to the community they serve.

4th amend. "Papers and effects..."

 

[Twitch2120]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our local sheriff department opens up their range a couple of times a month for the general public. I have been a few times with a suppressor. Never has one of them asked for my papers. When you go to get LEO sign off, the sheriff just signs them damn papers. No qeustions about why you need something like that. Now I think he and his deparment are true defenders of our rights. The next county over their sheriff carries a glock 18 as his duty weapon. I love GA. I am not here to bash LE. I just don't want to be harrassed. When we have some cop come on and tell to eat shit and smile, I think I will pass. </div></div>

Dekalb sheriff won't sign. that why i went with a trust

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornholeo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just wondering, how many people have you stuffed and cuffed for be antogonistic and how many for illegal possession of a NFA item? Just a ballpark on the numbers is cool. </div></div>

Ballpark? Zero on the first, although Ive arrested countless people for violations of the law. And Zero on the illegal posession of NFA.

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I might get his info and file a complaint and if I was so inclined force the issue with a lawyer. As the employers of LEOs it's sometimes our job to educate them in regards to constitutional rights.</div></div>What would be the complaint? What constitutional right is being violated? </div></div>4th amend. "Papers and effects..." </div></div>Nope. A law enforcement officer asking to see your Form 4 is performing neither a search nor a siezure.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pflyinguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CJ...Please clarify, are you asking for the paperwork while you are on duty on a call for service at a local range in your city and jurisdiction, or.... are you off duty at the range approaching other shooters asking for them to present thier paperwork because you see them in possesion of an NFA item?
</div></div>

I'm not the range monitor like some of yer seem to think, however if I have reasonable suspicion that a felony is being committed, on-duty or off, im likely to take some sort of action, even if it is just a phone call and monitoring the situation.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornholeo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just wondering, how many people have you stuffed and cuffed for be antogonistic and how many for illegal possession of a NFA item? Just a ballpark on the numbers is cool. </div></div>

Ballpark? Zero on the first, although Ive arrested countless people for violations of the law. And Zero on the illegal posession of NFA. </div></div>

And how many times do you suppose someone has sat in the back of a squad car, with their liberty stripped, while waiting for their papers to clear? You are obviously educated in regards to class III/NFA. I think it's safe to say that the majority of officers are not.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I might get his info and file a complaint and if I was so inclined force the issue with a lawyer. As the employers of LEOs it's sometimes our job to educate them in regards to constitutional rights.</div></div>What would be the complaint? What constitutional right is being violated? </div></div>4th amend. "Papers and effects..." </div></div>Nope. A law enforcement officer asking to see your Form 4 is performing neither a search nor a siezure. </div></div>

What does the word "papers" mean to you then?

You aren't going to convince me that a LEOs shaking an individual down for FEDERAL tax papers is some level-headed, 2nd amendment friendly, favor. Bullshit.

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does the word "papers" mean to you then? </div></div>The issue is not what the word 'papers' means to me. What the word means to me is not recognized by the law. The issue is that the 4th Amendment isn't triggered unless there's a search or siezure by the government. Therefore one's 4th Amendment rights are not even at issue, never mind whether or not they are being violated.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does the word "papers" mean to you then? </div></div>The issue is not what the word 'papers' means to me. What the word means to me is not recognized by the law. The issue is that the 4th Amendment isn't triggered unless there's a search or siezure by the government. </div></div>

Requiring an individual to present his federal tax papers amounts to a search. If the 4th amendment isn't recognized in your state how do you suppose you would challenge that? Perhaps the lawyer I spoke about...

In my experience in the law enforcement field I have not heard ONE mention of class III/NFA. This is newer territory for law and LEO policy. This is exactly the time gun owners need to stand their ground.

All this being said, I've shot next to multiple LEOs at my range with suppressed SBRs and none of them has said anything(except for "COOL!").

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullshit. </div></div>You are misrepresenting the facts.

Nowhere in this Thread did any law enforcement officer state that any person would be 'shaken down' for their papers.

That's not how it works.

You are free not to produce them, which may give the officer a reasonable and articulable suspiscion that they do not exist.

The patrol officer is not investigating or enforcing federal tax law, he is enforcing state law prohibiting the possession of silencers.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pflyinguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CJ...Please clarify, are you asking for the paperwork while you are on duty on a call for service at a local range in your city and jurisdiction, or.... are you off duty at the range approaching other shooters asking for them to present thier paperwork because you see them in possesion of an NFA item?
</div></div>

I'm not the range monitor like some of yer seem to think, however if I have reasonable suspicion that a felony is being committed, on-duty or off, im likely to take some sort of action, even if it is just a phone call and monitoring the situation. </div></div>

Reasonable suspicion, seems kinda vague
Asking solely based on i,m shooting a Suppressed weapon = reasonable suspicion it seems
The fact you are asking when off duty, is not supporting your position in fact your supporting their negative view of LEO.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

CJ, the difference is that that there's a duty to provide a driver's license on a traffic stop.

Jedi, an officer doesn't need reasonable suspiscion to ask for a Form 4.

The challenge for the person being asked is that they not misunderstand their role in the situation: Sure, the officer needs probable cause to arrest. But a probable cause determination is made by the officer based on the facts as he sees them at the time. Showing a Form 4 will, in all likelihood, make the path to probable cause go away regarding unlawful possession of a silencer.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Asking solely based on i,m shooting a Suppressed weapon = reasonable suspicion it seems </div></div>

Now you guys are making this up as you go along. I dont think I ever said that did I??

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullshit. </div></div>You are misrepresenting the facts.

Nowhere in this Thread did any law enforcement officer state that any person would be 'shaken down' for their papers.

That's not how it works.

You are free not to produce them, which may give the officer a reasonable and articulable suspiscion that they do not exist.

The patrol officer is not investigating or enforcing federal tax law, he is enforcing state law prohibiting the possession of silencers. </div></div>


I'm not misrepresenting anything. We can argue semantics over the words/phrases "shaken down" and "papers" all day.

I know that I am free to not produce them. What you are arguing is that if I don't "give the officer a reasonable and articulable suspiscion that they do not exist" then he has the right to detain me/strip me of my liberty. That is the reality of what's happening. You can't have it both ways when detaining someone who is acting within the law.

He doesn't need to check my forms, and infringe on my 4th amendment rights with no probable cause, to find out if my items are legal. All he needs to do is use the information on my DL, make a call to BATFE, and let me go on my way.

Again, this is grey area shit with law enforcement protical. As a community we need to come to a agreed course of action when dealing with illegal firearms. I don't believe harassing law abiding citizens needs to be a part of that action.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry </div></div>

No, DL is state issued which is within the scope of your authority. Verifying the legality(by state law) of my firearms by use of federal forms is not.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Im incredibly interested to hear your plan to curtail the proliferation of illegal firearms without talking to anyone but the 'bad guys'. We'll have to get all 'Minority Report' on you and refer it to the 'Future Crimes' division I guess.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im incredibly interested to hear your plan to curtail the proliferation of illegal firearms without talking to anyone but the 'bad guys'. We'll have to get all 'Minority Report' on you and refer it to the 'Future Crimes' division I guess. </div></div>

Making a call to the BATFE to see if an individual has NFA firearms registered to them doesn't equate to "minority report."

What you are doing is trying to minimize and discredit my argument by suggesting that what I said is somehow unrealistic. I suppose those who don't submit to you are all just a bunch of crazy gun nuts...

 

[turbo54]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry </div></div>

I would *hope* you would have pulled me over, in the first place, because you watched me commit a wrongful act, not simply because it's "possible" the car may be stolen.

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry </div></div>

Are you off duty when you pull this person over? I had an officer attempt to pull me over in a mini van once. He was off duty and had his whole family in his car. He wanted to know why I had an "active light bar" on my vehicle. I told him to piss off that he had no identifying marks on his vehicle and it was not an official state vehicle. I later encountered a metro officer and he said well we just got a call out for your vehicle. I said thats fine I will stand right here with you. Mini van man pulls up and I inform him that I have a light bar because I was in a construction zone and I own the company doing the work. I was checking in on my guys. The light bar is to warn traffic that there is danger ahead and I am stationary.

He got a stern talking to from his Srg that was on duty and was eventually released from duty.

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im incredibly interested to hear your plan to curtail the proliferation of illegal firearms without talking to anyone but the 'bad guys'. We'll have to get all 'Minority Report' on you and refer it to the 'Future Crimes' division I guess. </div></div>

Making a call to the BATFE to see if an individual has NFA firearms registered to them doesn't equate to "minority report."

What you are doing is trying to minimize and discredit my argument by suggesting that what I said is somehow unrealistic. I suppose we're all just a bunch of crazy gun nuts to you then officer... </div></div>

I hope the call is made between 7:30-4:30 because thats when the NFA Branch is open... otherwise you will be sitting on your thumb for awhile.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im incredibly interested to hear your plan to curtail the proliferation of illegal firearms without talking to anyone but the 'bad guys'. We'll have to get all 'Minority Report' on you and refer it to the 'Future Crimes' division I guess. </div></div>

Making a call to the BATFE to see if an individual has NFA firearms registered to them doesn't equate to "minority report."

What you are doing is trying to minimize and discredit my argument by suggesting that what I said is somehow unrealistic. I suppose we're all just a bunch of crazy gun nuts to you then officer... </div></div>

I hope the call is made between 7:30-4:30 because thats when the NFA Branch is open... otherwise you will be sitting on your thumb for awhile. </div></div>

Maybe that needs to change. The citizens shouldn't have to compromise their rights to mitigate the lack of communication between agencies.