Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

[bm11]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jephs422</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is reasonable for me to assume that if a person is driving a car, they probably have a license, so unless they give me a reason to pull them over, I can't. Plain and simple...

It is NOT reasonable to assume that if a person has a silencer that it is legal, therefore it IS reasonable for me to ask them for their paperwork.

Not sure where the confusion is. Of course, I'd just let my watch commander sort it out.

</div></div>Why isn't it reasonable to assume that the silencer is legal? Unless it is home made it would be almost impossible to get illegally, where as a car can easily be bought without a valid drivers license.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

well BM... he's in California... so in his case I'd probably agree with him... but in Texas?

 

[Hooper]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.
You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.

Enjoy, enjoy legally and consider me to be your best friend and a solid supporter of your lawful Class 3 R2KBA!

......
If you wanted to tell me to do something anatomically impossible and refuse to show paperwork because you are trying to prove some point or automatically think I am an enemy... things would not be so genial. Because you would go from fellow-enthusiast to suspect/perp/potential felon in a microsecond.

......


Sirhr
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess I'm destined to take a trip downtown one day in bracelets......cause I'll be damned if I'm stepping back off my rights one iota just to appease some cop....that is most likely gonna be off duty anyway.....otherwise what's he doing at a public range? </div></div>

Gawd I wish you were in Texas. I'd love to give you your destiny.

If you are in possession of an NFA item you are required to have your tax stamp with you. Call it a 'tax document' if you like, but it is your proof that your item is legally possessed. If it isnt legally possessed and your dumb enough to bring it to the range, youre going to jail. If it IS legally possessed and your dumb and stubborn enough not to take 10 seconds to prove it then youre going to jail. Its all very simple.
.....
WTF!? What 'fine line'?? Its either legally owned or its not. I ask for the paperwork, you pull it out of your pocket, I go away. Jeezuz, whats so hard about that?? No chest thumping or overstepping of authority involved.

......

Hey if youre Joe Blow and your stuff looks to be production items, I likely wouldnt ask. If your suppressor looks like a coffee can arrangement and youre dressed like a militia member, well,you know.

Profiling? Yeah probably, but Ill ask anyway. or at least I'llmake a phone call to someone in uniform who will ask.

......

Yeah, actually I do. If youre openly displaying a Prohibited Weapon defined by the State of Texas, I DO have the right AND the responsibility to inquire as to its legality. What is so hard to understand about that?

</div></div>

I think these comments from our esteemed LE here on this board is what got some folks a little peeved.

 

[Hooper]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the end of the day, if a uniformed LEO asks you for your Form 4, you'll provide it because you wont risk the consequences. End of story. </div></div>

There is is folks. Just have a video camera ready. Document the incident.

THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS


CHECK ONE, CHECK ALL

 

[springer01]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">springer...

I never actually said I'd "want" to make an arguement, and I suggest people carry a copy...

but I also know that shit happens and people forget the copy, hell I do being that I'm so close to the range and unfortunately I'm not in a position where it's practical to have forms wrapped around an item, so I sometimes forget to grab any paperwork... it's never really been a problem. I have had LEO say something along the lines of "what dept you with?" then when I tell them I'm not they say something about, but silencers are only legal for LE/gov, or ask about the class III license. I explain that there isn't an class III license, or that the general public can in fact own NFA items. They generally argue at first, then get really confused looks and drop it... but a couple have pushed enough to make me think they're about to get stupid, often when I actually had paperwork, that didn't even want to see, because they just KNEW it was illegal, but for some reason (I honestly think a lack of confidence on their part)they've never pushed, a few have asked their, presumably more experienced, buddies even.

it's generally fairly civil... occasionally I've gone as far as to say they need to ask someone w/ a clue type stuff... but I can see it someday going to me telling 1 to pound sand, and again, I may very well have paperwork and have tried to educate them...

but nobody has shown me anywhere that I'm required to show anyone except the ATF any paperwork... in fact, I paid a lawyer to advise me and he also doesn't see any requirement, but suggests it... because it generally will be much easier

I just want someone that says I have to show it to local LE show me that in writing... because even w/ the TX statues (which are very similar to OK)... MY lawyer and I just don't see it

but instead of showing me, they show me something else and tell me I'm an idiot, my lawyer is an idiot, and anyone who disagrees w/ them are idiot, kook, anti LEO, anti gov, zombie chasing, basement dwelling rebels....

I thought I MAY learn something, but apparently people can't make have a discussion without attacking everyone...

all I asked for was proof in writing or an explanation that I (me) the common dipshit can understand...

apparently that makes me a kook


</div></div>

I understand what you are asking for, and the truth be I don't believe anyone truly knows. The laws like LL pointed out is there to show what could happen, but I don't think it has happened to anyone here. Mostly because people A) if asked show their paperwork or B) are not asked for paperwork. I guess the only true way to find out is to test your theory out and see what happens.


I personally have made small copies of all my stuff, I keep some in my range bag and some in my truck. If I run off without my range back chances are I am still gonna be in my truck. I did this to avoid the hassle and trouble of wasting my time proving I am legal. I would show my shit, move on, and keep shooting.

I have found a lot of unconfirmed answers in the NFA world. The latest being the engraving of my SBR. Some say if form 1'd it must be engraved, others say and even show letters stating the opposite, then it gets down to abbreviations... is RLT an ok abbreviation for Revocable Living Trustand on and on. I for one WILL have my SBR engraved NO abbreviations because I don't want to find out the hard way I did it wrong. You sound like the type that does things the other way. That is your choice but many others choose the other route.

 

[346ci]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[I think these comments from our esteemed LE here on this board is what got some folks a little peeved.

</div></div>

Was for me. I have respect for LE, if they give respect back. I have several friends that are/were LE, some were on the right path, some not. Those that were are cool as hell and I'm proud they are helping/keeping shit bags off the streets.

Lowlight, you got to remember, while there are assholes in the civilian world, that works the same for LEO.

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stag15m4</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been asked. Both times clean cut. Wearing khakis and a blue polo with a citibank logo. New car.

First time was when some people at an outdoor dnr range saw me verifying a zero on a suppressed rifle. They pulled up. Started walking over to the benches, saw the gun, stopped, got back into their car and left. Responding law enforcement wanted to see my "class 3" license. I finished what i was doing while they dug through my laminated super reduced flip books of random forms looking for the right one.

At one point i told them it was indeed in there. They asked which one, and i told them i had supreme confidence they would be able to figure it out. Pretty sure they gave up out of frustration.

Second time i was dressed identical. Traveling down I95 in FL at 3am or so. Was driving from SC to West Palm Beach to go fishing with my Dad for the weekend. Got pulled over for speeding, sort of. Pretty sure he did not get me clocked, just knew it was over 100mph fast. I was asked if i knew how fsst i was going. I replied i did, but did he? So he asked how fast. I told him it doesnt work that way. He was welcome to tell me what his radar said, but i was confident he didnt get it.

At that point he asked if he could search the vehicle. I said he could if i could step out and take a piss. Keep in mind we are both on the side of I95 in the fairly dark part with nothing and no one around for a good distance.

So im pissing a good bit away and he opens the trunk which is full of nfa fun and sort of freaks out on me. Drawn gun, yelling, me pissing still. I tell him he needs to call his shift sergeant and if he puts bracelets on me they are mine to keep.

So im sitting there in cuffs. A bunch of cars pull up. Everyone says im "in big trouble". Shift sergant pulls up. I ask him if he would like to see my letters from the ATF stating i can have these items. He flips through the flip book for 2 seconds and goes and counsels the officer while another officer undid the bracelets. I ask if they want to shoot them and they take turns firing a suppressed 9mm glock into the drainage on the shoulder. Everyone got to except the first officer who had to go sit in his car because i said he needed to go spend some time in "timeout".
From start to finish, took about an hour. And i kept the cuffs not because i have any use for them but because the officer had to buy another set out of his own pocket.

I have flown, driven, gone all sorts of places and those are the only times it has happened to me. </div></div>

Let me make sure I understand this..

Encounter #1: A "Concerned Citizen" called 911 about you shooting guns that they thought were illegal. Local Law Enforcement was called to investigate the suspected illegal weapon. Upon their arrival, instead of explaining what you had and how you were able to have it, you sling a "laminated super reduced flip books of random forms" and expect them to find your "Class 3 license" while you continue to shoot and make smart-ass snide remarks towards them attempting to do their job??? They did give up out of frustration I'm sure only instead of stretching the story and arresting you for some weak charge or for possession of bad guns, they turned you loose??? How is this any sort of encroachment on your Constitutional Rights? There is no way that you "Finished what you were doing" and then directed your attention towards the pee-on uniform cops... We don't work like that. The officer-safety issues in that situation are endless. I'm sure something occurred that parallels your fable, but it didn't go down the way you're telling the tale.

Encounter #2: I call BS on your story. I'm quite sure that you got pulled over for speeding, and I'm quite sure that you had NFA weapons in your vehicle. The BS comes in when you allow him to search your car while you "Take a Piss" on the side of I-95.. I highly doubt that a man who takes issue with showing NFA paperwork to the cops would allow a cop to search his car without PC especially while he was not watching. Also, no cop with any amount of training would allow you to go to the side of I-95 and piss while he was searching your car by himself! Then, the part about you telling him that he was in timeout while you and all of the fist-dragging ape cops shot guns on the side of I-95 is bullshit too.. I almost forgot the part about keeping his handcuffs. You mean to tell everybody that he removed the handcuffs from your wrists and then handed them to you??? -BS-

I bring back your past statement about cops being liars. If your stories actually occurred (And they very well may have) they are blown so far out of proportion that your credibility is shot.

Anybody who has had any business encounters with the police knows that.

You can lie to the forum, but you can't lie to yourself.

Like LowLight said, this is a cop-bashing thread, not a suppressor thread.

I do not think that the OP intended it to turn out like this, I think he just wanted a simple answer. </div></div>

I can assure you i am 100% as ridiculous in person as i am on the internet. I also dont get normal reactions because i dont play normal games. Last two traffic stops i had both officers were harassed until they gave me a high five.

Last one i got pulled for not wearing a seatbelt, bs $25 revenue raiser. I had him follow me for blocks and blocks until he used his siren. For some reason he just followed me with the blue lights on. A hilarious 25mph parade through a subdivision. He was pissed when he walked up to the window. I told him i wasn't going to stop for a $25 ticket until i got to hear the siren. Wanted to feel like i got something for my money. He offered to "give me the ride" mentioned earlier. I readily agreed and asked what his plan was when my lawyer argued--without the siren, how could i know he was signaling to me? He then declined the "ride" offer. I really don't see why everyone is so scared of the police. What's the worst that's really going to happen? You sir are going to jail for being a pain in the ass...

You ever drive down I95 south with a radar detector and pvs-14 in your lap really late at night? Cops from small jurisdictions park in the median with the car off and radar off waiting for someone like me. And when they turn on the gun/car you have seconds to lock the brakes and get back to a more normal speed. Sure its obvious i was super speeding, but id bet my passport radar detectors they didnt get the reading in time. Then its a matter of not saying crap when they keep asking. If they actually had it they wouldn't be asking still.

Ive never understood the fear of having a leo search your vehicle. Knock yourself out. Gives me time to ask if they see my lost phone charger cord. Or any of those hard mints from the bowl at Red Lobster? There isnt anything to find anyways.

So yeah. When cops stop buddying up to me while asking me to admit to something possibly incriminating, i will retract my statement. Till then their desire to deceive surpasses a stripper who wants you to like her another $20 bills worth.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

When you consider the vast number of posts I have been deleting not just in the last week, but the last year or more attacking LE on this site, it's no wonder they take a hard line with some things. Generally speaking in person they are never that bad, but the constant new posts of some LE doing this or that in a country of 300+ million, it's a little one sided. Sure shit happens and I am not a fan of those who over step by any stretch, but we have warned in deleted before and it hasn't stopped or slowed down, the anti-government, anti-LE is just too much for my liking.

I understand taking exception to their attitude, but feel some members here have bred that type of response. Right or wrong I don't feel constantly harping on LE in general over the random few is warranted. I think you reap what you sow in this case and they know who are the ones who make the statements.

On a lighter note, to highlight my Napoleonic ways, got this gem this afternoon:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was a new member to Snipers hide forums which I enjoy reading there are some very good info on there.

The problem is I was banned due to moderator saying read rules about selling when you come back.

Well if you dumb ass Fuck moderators would have read my post clearly instead of being a illiterate dipshit you would have read I WAS NOT TRYING TO SELL SHIT ON YOUR FUCKING WEBSITE I WAS MERELY TRYING TO GET INFO ON WHAT A REASONABLE PRICE TO ASK IS AND IF THERE WAS EVEN A DEMAND TO SELL IT! YOU CAN DELETE MY FUCKING ACCOUNT FROM YOUR COMMUNIST WEBSITE I WANT NO PART OF IT IF I CANT EVEN ASK A GOD DAMN FUCKING QUESTION WITHOUT GETTING BANNED!!!!!!!!!

IT was a reasonable question and you Fucks have to throw your communism around and declare total control of something and ban a member with 20+ years of shooting experience and gunsmithing! I refuse to be treated like that from illiterate dipshits and power hungry Fucks! DELETE MY ACCOUNT AND HAVE A NICE FUCKING DAY!</div></div>

Typical, still people wonder why we have no patience for idiots.

 

[DrRansom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Dr Ransom if you don't like what i said, take your 32 posts, log off and go... you're not contributing here but clearly have an issue with Law enforcement, which I am personally getting tired of people coming here to bash LE.

Stop being a cry baby and grow a pair, cause if you're gonna act like you wear a tin foil hat I'm gonna treat you like it, that simple. I have no more patience for guys coming on here to cry about the evils of LE. They are members, they do a thankless job so if you want to bash them or government this is not the site to do it on. </div></div>

I have contributed here in the past, and I've been reading here for a long time. That I have a low post count is just cause I don't usually get involved on gun forums. So I could really give a shit about your low post count comment - like everything else you've said in this argument, it's below the belt and has no relevance.

So, by standing up to the site admin for acting like a complete tool because people don't like to be threatened by LEOs (and for disagreeing with him), I need to grow a pair? Sure. Right on bro. I didn't come on here to cry about LE, check my posts and my account, and see. LE do not do a thankless job - I can't even think of a gun store, gym, or whatever that does not give an LE discount. There's LE nut gobblers galore that wholly subscribe to whatever BS is thrust down their throats. Most LE are at least partially protected from most laws. LE salaries are not disrespectable in the slightest. Thankless job my ass, there's not evidence for that statement either.

There is a lot to be gained from this thread. I was here reading about suppressors, and saw the douchebaggery begin with SniperCJ and continue with you. Your comments have been below the belt and derogatory from the beginning. If you think speaking up for what I think is right means I'm a pussy, I'd hate to see what it takes for you to think I'm not.

 

[jheat308]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

One of the main reasons I asked the question from the get go was to see who has had issues around class 3 items. I don’t get or understand where $200 of my hard earned dollars gos when I pay my Gov for the privilege of owning a super crazy killing SBR or suppressor anyway. I just see legal issues popping up like this to control the masses! Take the seat belt ticket law, what right do LEO have to pull me over and cut me ( Frisco TX ) $218 dollar ticket. Well they don’t and its just another way for power to be issued over me to collect money and strip my right to take my safety in my own hands. We started an uprising over .001 on tea. I respect the hell out of our LEO but just take a second to question what it is your enforcing. I just hope my kids don’t have to pay $200 for the right to own a gun.

 

[SnkBit]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I think it's healthy for us, the shooting community, to debate matters such as this amongst ourselves. It's a learning experience for all involved. Through debates like this we bring about various issues that may otherwise not be considered. The information and opinions brought about by these debates could potentially aid In our efforts to appeal laws or create new legislation in the future without being blindsided by information or opinions that may go unspoken otherwise.

There were a few comments from law enforcement that disappointed me. I had hoped our LE officers would be more professional as I feel we should hold these individuals to a higher standard. In the end I suppose they are equally susceptible to their emotions and will defend their position as strongly as the next guy.

On that same note, if I was a LE officer and subject to a few of the opinions I have read here, I would probably be just as defensive. These LE officers are not our enemies and should not be treated as such. I can imagine that their actions are an adaptation to their environment. With the hostility directed toward them from this site one can only imagine what they endure outside the realm of law abiding gun advocates.

 

[windermike]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I took issue with one cop who was being a jackass. I too have owned many different nfa items. I have never been harrassed with any of them. I think as nfa comes more commonplace leo will become more fimilar with the laws. I did not mean to start this shitstorm.

On a lighter note I am in the nearing the end of my wait for my new can. I am getting an Allen engineering AE30 30cal can. I have an 18in .308 and a 300 win mag threaded and ready to go for it.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

the LE guys like SirMechanic were professional and answered the question in a complete manner, go to the first page.

It was only when idiots thought they knew better and that it was their right to not show the paperwork did things get ugly. Not understanding the overlapping State law that required you show the paperwork, instead people without a clue started chiming in how the BATF says they dont' have to show anyone but an ATF Agent the paperwork to prove anything --- Clearly proven wrong from the first page.

This was the 3rd Response and from LE, doesnt' get any more respectful.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.

But whether or not the individual officer knows enough to ask/understand the Class 3/DD minutae (ie. familiar with details of BATFE regs.) is hit or miss.

I know the details, believe me. Two other guys in my dept know. Count on it. But I believe we are in a small minority in the local/state LE community.

You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.

Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. I have numerous legal and registered Class III and DD items myself -- all the way up to a 25mm semi-automatic Hotchkiss anti-tank gun (for when you are done messing around with mere .50 BMG). I am asking because I want to ensure that my fellow C3/DD enthusiasts are acting legally and not giving those of us who appreciate the genre (and are willing to go through the approvals for ownership) a black eye with illegal items.

Enjoy, enjoy legally and consider me to be your best friend and a solid supporter of your lawful Class 3 R2KBA!

Weld up parts kits or hacksaw off your gun barrel like a moron... you deserve what you get. And that does not include my sympathy or understanding. Ownership of cool C3/DD items is not hard or expensive. Correctly-filled-out paperwork almost guarantees approval. The $200 fee is a pittance compared to the price of C3 items these days.

Do the paperwork... get approved. Enjoy the best toys and welcome to the club.

Just my $0.02.

Cheers,

Sirhr
</div></div>

When others challenge this he continued to show respect, with details,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...

Under our state statutes, anyone who is in possession of a deadly weapon (firearm, among other things) while in commission of a felony is in violation of state laws. Unlawful possession of an SBR, Class III, etc. is a federal felony under 18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861

That is my PC when asking for BATF paperwork. And our local BATF agents, who I know on a first-name basis, are 20 minutes away if a subject refuses to show paperwork. No harrassment suit. No wrongful detainment. Cut and dried. I don't even have to do much paperwork, because BATF has no sense of humor that they are aware of. And they'll happily take the whole case off my hands and federal court is no fun! Other states have different flavors of this... but 'online forum lawschool advice' aside, local LE have no jurisdictional issues when it comes to asking for Class 3, DD, Form 1, etc. firearms paperwork.

What I find interesting is windermike et al's hostile reaction to my post... when I tried to make it clear that I am a huge fan and supporter of legal C3 and DD ownership. While at the same time being committed to help prevent illegal ownership of the same items.

Windermike... your parts kit on Form 1, as long as it complies with BATF regs, glad you have it. Enjoy it. Do I want to take it? Nope. Not if it's legal! Would I ask for your papers and be justified in asking? You bet. And after verifying that it's legal... I'd probably admire your build quality and compliment an interesting gun and we'd have a great time on the range talking C3 and FA and DD. That's what fellow-enthusiasts do.

If you wanted to tell me to do something anatomically impossible and refuse to show paperwork because you are trying to prove some point or automatically think I am an enemy... things would not be so genial. Because you would go from fellow-enthusiast to suspect/perp/potential felon in a microsecond.

That said... We're On The Same Damn Side!!!!

Folks... those in LE who know the Class 3/DD/SBR/Form 1 rules inside out and who respect, enjoy and participate in that community are not your enemies!

In fact, you should probably be wishing that there were a lot more of us! Because we are the ones who want to see your paperwork signed-off by our chiefs. We want to admire your neat stuff on the range. We know how to measure barrels, the definition of an open bolt -- in short, the details of what is ok and what is not, so we're not the ones who get you into trouble through ignorance of the minutae of firearms. Finally, we are committed to defend you to the hilt when antis think that machine guns/silencers/short barrels, etc. are for "criminals and crazies." And those antis usually far outnumber us supporters!

So when we go out of our way to keep the legal owners happy and safe... and go to the trouble to know our jobs and the details of the law well enough to keep the illegal builders/buyers/traders from ruining the fun for all of us... one would think that would be considered laudable. It should not become a reason to accuse us of all being a bunch of jack-booted thugs trying to confiscate firearms.

Looking for nothing more here than keeping a great aspect of the firearms hobby (and one that I love) within the bounds of the law, so Class 3/DD/SBR/etc. stays fun and legal and does not ultimately get banned for all of us.

Hostile attitudes towards your Allies... that doesn't do any of us any good!

Cheers,

Sirhr</div></div>

Clearly the Forum Attorneys came out and started pushing back... hence your 7 pages of back and forth.

Dont' tell me you're just defending your buddies from the big bad Police, bad advice which would land you in trouble was the issue, not their response to hostile posters without a clue.

The bottom line, this was started because someone felt inconvenienced and was wondering why they have to pay and be put out... Again, back to my 80 year old law comment and all of the sudden it is a major issue. Be glad it never rose with inflation, $200 can easily be $2000, or $10,000 to possess one.

So DrRansom where did this all start with the LE members of this forum or with a few hard ass uneducated folks trying to act the part. Clearly the law has been demonstrated that LE has the ability to ask to see your paperwork to establish the legality of the device under Stage law. End of story.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sirhr

I have an sbr I built from a parts kit. Are you coming to get it. By the way it is on a form 1. If you have no reason to ask for papers why would you? Or are you just being a dick. Do you go around asking people for other tax documents?

OP

Anyone can ask you for papers. That does not mean you have to show them.

Mike</div></div>

Windermike, you clearly started this without any provocation, immediately you thought you had it going on... Never once was his post disrespectful to lawful Class 3 owners.

You had no clue, and were not aware of the possession aspect of State law, otherwise you wouldn't have said, "you dont' have to show them"

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

if it has "clearly" been established... show me a case.. End of story

 

[DrRansom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So DrRansom where did this all start with the LE members of this forum or with a few hard ass uneducated folks trying to act the part. Clearly the law has been demonstrated that LE has the ability to ask to see your paperwork to establish the legality of the device under Stage law. End of story. </div></div>

Lack of education means not a thing. If everyone were educated, then what the hell use would a forum be? Some people are here to learn. And when they are told that an LE would love to give them "their destiny", they rightfully tell him he's a clown. And rightfully, people with that attitude shouldn't be on the job. And I'll hold that view with my dying breath.

But it's more than just that. If LE are to be held to a higher standard, this type of debate shouldn't even exist - but it's so frequent (as you admit) that it's sickening. Not that you give two shits, but I have multiple LE in the family, and we debate this all the time...

...however, it doesn't turn into a pissing match, with them calling people names and shit like that. You make me sick:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why debate me if you are scared, I havent' banned anyone... and clearly you dont' understand the laws, so stupid is as stupid says.

That is always the argument right, if you disagree you'll be banned, forget the fact you are WRONG disagreeing is the issue. </div></div>

You say crap like this, then when they disagree with you, you say the most disrespectful things. Name-calling? Seriously, dude. Much easier to take my leave than to stand up to an admin who acts like this. But no, I should "grow a pair" and submit to whatever your opinion is.

 

[windermike]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I don't live in Texas. I guess I should have said here in GA you don't have to show them. We all should probally go somewhere else for legal advise. State to state laws are different.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if it has "clearly" been established... show me a case.. End of story</div></div>

they gave you the statute not wanting to recognize it is your problem.

You refuse to acknowledge the State laws that possessions is illegal.. that is your issue, no one else's.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

state law says you have to tether your car outside the courthouse here too.... the statute doesn't mean shit unless it can be backed up...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Hate to break it too you, Georgia has the same law,

O.C.G.A. 16-11-122 (2010)
16-11-122. Possession of sawed-off shotgun or rifle, machine gun, silencer, or dangerous weapon prohibited

No person shall have in his possession any sawed-off shotgun, sawed-off rifle, machine gun, dangerous weapon, or silencer except as provided in Code Section 16-11-124.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">state law says you have to tether your car outside the courthouse here too.... the statute doesn't mean shit unless it can be backed up...</div></div>

Just because they don't' enforce spitting on the sidewalk, enforcement of a felony is a different story.

Again, it's a choice, you choose to not recognize it but that doesnt' mean it is not there.

 

[windermike]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

16-11-24

(1) A peace officer of any duly authorized police agency of this state or of any political subdivision thereof, or a law enforcement officer of any department or agency of the United States who is regularly employed and paid by the United States, this state, or any such political subdivision, or an employee of the Department of Corrections of this state who is authorized in writing by the commissioner of corrections to transfer or possess such firearms while in the official performance of his duties;

(2) A member of the National Guard or of the armed forces of the United States to wit: the army, navy, marine corps, air force, or coast guard who, while serving therein, possesses such firearm in the line of duty;

(3) Any sawed-off shotgun, sawed-off rifle, machine gun, dangerous weapon, or silencer which has been modified or changed to the extent that it is inoperative. Examples of the requisite modification include weapons with their barrel or barrels filled with lead, hand grenades filled with sand, or other nonexplosive materials;

(4) Possession of a sawed-off shotgun, sawed-off rifle, machine gun, dangerous weapon, or silencer by a person who is authorized to possess the same because he has registered the sawed-off shotgun, sawed-off rifle, machine gun, dangerous weapon, or silencer in accordance with the dictates of the National Firearms Act, 68A Stat. 725 (26 U.S.C. Sections 5841-5862); and

(5) A security officer employed by a federally licensed nuclear power facility or a licensee of such facility, including a contract security officer, who is trained and qualified under a security plan approved by the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission or other federal agency authorized to regulate nuclear facility security; provided, however, that this exemption shall apply only while such security officer is acting in connection with his or her official duties on the premises of such nuclear power facility or on properties outside the facility property pursuant to a written agreement entered into with the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction over the facility. The exemption under this paragraph does not include the possession of silencers.

This says nothing about showing a form 4

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Section 4 absolutely does.... person who is authorized to possess same because has registered the silencer with accordance of the NFA... that is it.

Seriously, you can't see that and don't understand that is what it means.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

and code section 16-11-124 then says LE, MIl, Federally registered...

blah blah...

california penal code aslo says you can't drive w/o a license, but a cali leo came on and admitted that he needs a PC to stop you... why, someone sued them...and won

you guys keep posting statutes that say something has to be registered, but never show in a statute where anyone has to carry NFA forms, or even a state statute saying they have to have state forms... under the statutes you're posting NFA items are required to be registered... burden off proof is on that state...... we ARE technically still innocent until PROVEN guilty....

show me a state statute that says a person has to carry and or present their NFA forms... or a case where someone was successfully prosecuted for not having the forms for a legally registered item... until then, I have the right to remain silent and be free from unreasonable search or seizure

 

[windermike]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Ok here it is. I am Wrong. Not scared to admitt it and prove it.

O.C.G.A. § 16-11-125
Burden of proof as to exemptions

In any complaint, accusation, or indictment and in any action or proceeding brought for the enforcement of this part it shall not be necessary to negative any exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption contained in this part, and the burden of proof of any such exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption shall be upon the defendant.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does not say specifcally that you must show a form 4 but how else would you prove it.

I learned something through this threa so it is not useless.

Mike

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I am done, I'm debating the 3 stooges, what the hell is

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">silencer in accordance with the dictates of the National Firearms Act, 68A Stat. 725 (26 U.S.C. Sections 5841-5862)</div></div>

That is your Form 4 right there... they are telling you in black and white, you are illegal unless you prove registry which is your stamp or SOT.

By your rational every law is unenforceable because a different law is vague. Oh my god, i cannot believe you people it's mind numbing.

Please test it and come back and report to us, the laws are clearly written if you use common sense,

A) it is illegal to possess, unless

B) it is registered with accordance to the National Firearms Act, which is your Form 4.

so if you can't meet B you are guilty of A .... this is written in 3rd grade English.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok here it is. I am Wrong. Not scared to admitt it and prove it.

O.C.G.A. § 16-11-125
Burden of proof as to exemptions

In any complaint, accusation, or indictment and in any action or proceeding brought for the enforcement of this part it shall not be necessary to negative any exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption contained in this part, and the burden of proof of any such exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption shall be upon the defendant.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does not say specifcally that you must show a form 4 but how else would you prove it.

I learned something through this threa so it is not useless.

Mike</div></div>

Finally at least one has common sense ...

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok here it is. I am Wrong. Not scared to admitt it and prove it.

O.C.G.A. § 16-11-125
Burden of proof as to exemptions

In any complaint, accusation, or indictment and in any action or proceeding brought for the enforcement of this part it shall not be necessary to negative any exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption contained in this part, and the burden of proof of any such exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption shall be upon the defendant.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does not say specifcally that you must show a form 4 but how else would you prove it.

I learned something through this threa so it is not useless.

Mike</div></div>


finally... the guy that asked the question got his answer... for HIS state... but unless any other states have something similar, the burden is still on the state, not the defendant... by default

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok here it is. I am Wrong. Not scared to admitt it and prove it.

O.C.G.A. § 16-11-125
Burden of proof as to exemptions

In any complaint, accusation, or indictment and in any action or proceeding brought for the enforcement of this part it shall not be necessary to negative any exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption contained in this part, and the burden of proof of any such exception, excuse, proviso, or exemption shall be upon the defendant.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does not say specifcally that you must show a form 4 but how else would you prove it.

I learned something through this threa so it is not useless.

Mike</div></div>


finally... the guy that asked the question got his answer... for HIS state... but unless any other states have something similar, the burden is still on the state, not the defendant... by default </div></div>

And where did you study for your law degree?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

probably at a better school than some, but I didn't finish, so it matters little...

probably why I like these threads, I know just enough to be interested and wrong a lot....

but I still dare anyone to show me where I have to show local LE paperwork for my suppressors on my range...

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably at a better school than some, but I didn't finish, so it matters little...

probably why I like these threads, I know just enough to be interested and wrong a lot....

but I still dare anyone to show me where I have to show local LE paperwork for my suppressors on my range...

</div></div>

If you own the property that you shoot on what would cause them to come out there and ask IF you are using said suppressor?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I actually meant the rod and gun club range around the corner... but anywhere here local will do

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

If a uniformed officer came up to me and said "excuse me, I need to see your paperwork for that class 3 item. I just want to ensure your paperwork is squared away." I would have no problem showing them the form and moving on with my day. As Frank said already, bypass the drama and just get it over with. If they continue to harass you call the supervisor on duty.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

doesn't change the fact that I don't HAVE to show it to him...

hint, suppressors aren't illegal in Oklahoma... "sawed off shotguns" and "sawed off rifles" are (w/ being federally compliant w/ the NFA as a defense), but silencers/suppressors aren't...

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Im speaking in general. Not state specific.

 

[GUNNER75]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I was born with the right to have my suppressor and use it too, and God said, on the afternoon of the 13th Day, let there be Full Auto" </div></div>

LMAO

I have been asked what is it, can I see it, will you demo it for us at range day, etc, etc. Asked if I had paperwork, but feel they asked as if to gain knowledge of the topic and not to question me.

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Safest thing to do is always carry your papers and show them to whomever asks to see them. I don't see the point of flexing at the man on this one.

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably at a better school than some, but I didn't finish, so it matters little...

probably why I like these threads, I know just enough to be interested and wrong a lot....

but I still dare anyone to show me where I have to show local LE paperwork for my suppressors on my range...

</div></div>

Texas Penal Code
Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.
Texas Penal Code
CHAPTER 2. BURDEN OF PROOF Definitions
Sec. 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense to prosecution . . . ."
(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the offense.
(c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.
(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.

You are responsible for the burden of proof if it is a defense to prosecution. This does not say that you have to carry it with you, but does say that you have to prove you have it before it is a defense to prosecution. Once again this is applies only to Texas Law. Satisfactory?

 

[105amatt]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Gestapo?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

ok... GA and TX are fully covered...

Oklahoma: Title 21 OSS Chapter 53...

in short "sawed off shotguns" and "sawed off rifles" are illegal, but NFA compliance is a defense... (must show the paperwork)

silencers/suppressors are not illegal or even mentioned (not illegal, don't have to show paperwork, but it's the best choice for an easy day)

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

All you haters.. If you come to Florida and dont show your paper work, you will be arrested under Florida Statute 790.221 http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/inde...s/0790.221.html

Its black and white! If you have papers and want to be a dick and NOT show them, then you leave the LEO's no choice but to put your ass in jail. Everyone has rights, and NO LEO is over stepping any boundaries by asking for papers when he sees a SBR SBS etc etc!!

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

ok FL is covered for SBS,SBR, and Machine guns... except antiques... still open for suppressors... unless that's the extent of their statutes on NFA?

 

[dirtyname]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I'm going to weigh in on this because my opinion is the only opinion that matters. ...sarcasm

ImHo. Although, I don't agree with complying with every request made by an officer of the law. I very highly doubt any of you stubborn meatheads would resist very long to present your paperwork to anyone who asks. There are all types of folks out there. Some will offer their paperwork laminated from a manila folder labeled in bold black lettering printed from their home computer reading "NFA PAPERWORK". Some of you will have it wadded up in your back pocket. Some will have it copied on paper small enough to fit in your wallet. Lowlight attaches his directly to his suppressors. This method seems pretty solid however most of us don't own 20 cans to have the paperwork get mixed up. Some will set up an easel next to their bench at the range displaying their tax stamp for everyone to see. This method might be the most passive way for those of you who want to avoid any communication with LE. I assume most of us will have it tucked away in our rifle case in an envelope. But no matter how you carry your paperwork, you carry it, and I am certain you will provide it if you are asked.

If I was a cop I would absolutely curb stomp some of you dueschbags and say you pointed your suppressed SBR at me. Regardless to the outcome, I would be laughing drinking beers telling my buddies about the hot head at the range I twisted up while you're having to use vacation time to go to court to ultimately show your paperwork.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

cool dirty... wanna job in Oklahoma... I know some people...and I need a new boat or 10

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Suppressors are listed in FLA, you have to look up muffler in some places.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(6)&#8195;“Firearm” means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any Destructive device; or any machine gun. The term “firearm” does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.</div></div>

As well it can be found under destructive device because it expels a projectile, so you have to read the definition of dangerous or destructive device because that relates to the BATF.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

roger... FL is fully covered... show the paper

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to weigh in on this because my opinion is the only opinion that matters. ...sarcasm

ImHo. Although, I don't agree with complying with every request made by an officer of the law. I very highly doubt any of you stubborn meatheads would resist very long to present your paperwork to anyone who asks. There are all types of folks out there. Some will offer their paperwork laminated from a manila folder labeled in bold black lettering printed from their home computer reading "NFA PAPERWORK". Some of you will have it wadded up in your back pocket. Some will have it copied on paper small enough to fit in your wallet. Lowlight attaches his directly to his suppressors. This method seems pretty solid however most of us don't own 20 cans to have the paperwork get mixed up. Some will set up an easel next to their bench at the range displaying their tax stamp for everyone to see. This method might be the most passive way for those of you who want to avoid any communication with LE. I assume most of us will have it tucked away in our rifle case in an envelope. But no matter how you carry your paperwork, you carry it, and I am certain you will provide it if you are asked.

If I was a cop I would absolutely curb stomp some of you dueschbags and say you pointed your suppressed SBR at me. Regardless to the outcome, I would be laughing drinking beers telling my buddies about the hot head at the range I twisted up while you're having to use vacation time to go to court to ultimately show your paperwork. </div></div>

Well now we have your admission in writing so the next guy you "twist up" can sue you and you can have fun paying him everything you make for the next 20 years.

 

[SQUATCH]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to weigh in on this because my opinion is the only opinion that matters. ...sarcasm

ImHo. Although, I don't agree with complying with every request made by an officer of the law. I very highly doubt any of you stubborn meatheads would resist very long to present your paperwork to anyone who asks. There are all types of folks out there. Some will offer their paperwork laminated from a manila folder labeled in bold black lettering printed from their home computer reading "NFA PAPERWORK". Some of you will have it wadded up in your back pocket. Some will have it copied on paper small enough to fit in your wallet. Lowlight attaches his directly to his suppressors. This method seems pretty solid however most of us don't own 20 cans to have the paperwork get mixed up. Some will set up an easel next to their bench at the range displaying their tax stamp for everyone to see. This method might be the most passive way for those of you who want to avoid any communication with LE. I assume most of us will have it tucked away in our rifle case in an envelope. But no matter how you carry your paperwork, you carry it, and I am certain you will provide it if you are asked.

If I was a cop I would absolutely curb stomp some of you dueschbags and say you pointed your suppressed SBR at me. Regardless to the outcome, I would be laughing drinking beers telling my buddies about the hot head at the range I twisted up while you're having to use vacation time to go to court to ultimately show your paperwork. </div></div>

Man, I would NEVER mess with you! Are you like that one guy on TV that walks tall and carries a big stick?

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Best I can tell Alabama just uses Federal law

Section 13A-11-63

Possession, sale, etc., of short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun; applicability.

(a) A person who possesses, obtains, receives, sells, or uses a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun in violation of federal law is guilty of a Class C felony.

 

[dirtyname]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical Sasquatch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dirtyname</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to weigh in on this because my opinion is the only opinion that matters. ...sarcasm

ImHo. Although, I don't agree with complying with every request made by an officer of the law. I very highly doubt any of you stubborn meatheads would resist very long to present your paperwork to anyone who asks. There are all types of folks out there. Some will offer their paperwork laminated from a manila folder labeled in bold black lettering printed from their home computer reading "NFA PAPERWORK". Some of you will have it wadded up in your back pocket. Some will have it copied on paper small enough to fit in your wallet. Lowlight attaches his directly to his suppressors. This method seems pretty solid however most of us don't own 20 cans to have the paperwork get mixed up. Some will set up an easel next to their bench at the range displaying their tax stamp for everyone to see. This method might be the most passive way for those of you who want to avoid any communication with LE. I assume most of us will have it tucked away in our rifle case in an envelope. But no matter how you carry your paperwork, you carry it, and I am certain you will provide it if you are asked.

If I was a cop I would absolutely curb stomp some of you dueschbags and say you pointed your suppressed SBR at me. Regardless to the outcome, I would be laughing drinking beers telling my buddies about the hot head at the range I twisted up while you're having to use vacation time to go to court to ultimately show your paperwork. </div></div>

Man, I would NEVER mess with you! Are you like that one guy on TV that walks tall and carries a big stick? </div></div>

No. I'm the guy you look for behind the shower curtain when you get home from the movies after finger banging your girlfriend and your mommy and daddy arn't home.