Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

[fdkay]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
so you're telling me, that under TX law, you can randomly pull people over simply because they are driving?

<span style="color: #FF0000">I quoted the statute verbatim. You decide, and no, it should not be done and the stop would most likely be suppressed along with any evidence found as a result of the stop</span>

no PC for the stop?

<span style="color: #FF0000">What is it with you and PC? There is NO FUCKING requirement for PC. The requirement is reasonable suspicion.</span>

and that you also don't need a reason to stop a random person on the street and request ID, then IF they ignore you, that gives you reasonable suspicion to detain them and conduct an investigation...

<span style="color: #CC0000">Wow, That is NOT what I said. You are now putting words in my mouth. Quit being so damned obstinate.
The answer is, no, you would not be detained, there is no reason to detain you. You would be free to go.</span>

I think that if you research the first one a little, you'll find it's more than frowned upon... I really wish i had a case reference, but I'm pretty sure you'll find that courts have upheld that <span style="color: #CC0000">you do in fact need PC to initiate a traffic stop...</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">No, I don't.</span>

and on the second, I really hope I misunderstood your explanation of TX law.. and am adding in something in my mind... since other "LEOs" here have said that refusing to acknowledge an off duty officer asking for a stamp gives reasonable suspicion and/or PC...

<span style="color: #FF0000">Not sure why you are unable to understand. I will try one more time. I am typing real slow, so maybe you can keep up.
THE MERE POSSESSION OF A SHORT BARRELED RIFLE OR SUPPRESSOR IS A FELONY IN THE STATE OF TEXAS. IT IS A DEFENSE TO PROSECUTION THAT YOU PROVIDE PROOF THAT IT IS PROPERLY AND LEGALLY REGISTERED.</span>

so... all you knowledgeable LEOs... what happens when you ask me for my stamp and I inform you that I don't receive a stamp when I legally purchase NFA items?
<span style="color: #FF0000">
Then I would assume you have a trust. You would need to provide a copy of the trust. If you fail to provide proof of a properly registered NFA item, you go to jail.</span> </div></div>

In reference to another poster, by all means, request to see the police identification card in addition to the badge. The badge means nothing without the ID.


Once again, many of you have gotten your panties in a bunch about nothing.
The OP asked who could ask to see papers.

The answer is simple, any one can ask. That does not mean you HAVE to show them in all instances.
Then came an attempt at education. Trying to inform folks that in Texas, the possession of an NFA item is a felony until you provide proof that is is lawfully registered.
Then the thread becomes a "fuck all pigs" thread and degenerated from there.

For all of you bashers that insist that an off-duty cop has no "right" to ask, I ask you this.
If you were at the dinner table and began having a heart attack in the presence of an off duty Doctor, would it seem reasonable to expect the doctor to act?
Would you not expect a police officer, witnessing a felony to act, on or off duty?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

trust is still a form 1 or 4... has a stamp

 

[1911fan]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

DOH! I should know that.

Thanks,

1911fan

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

fdkay......I think the point you are missing is that while the law may be written that way, many here, including me, feel that is unconstitutional.

Do you believe that states can and actually have passed laws that are in fact violations of constitutional rights?

Do you support the 2nd amendment? Do you believe that the government has the right to regulate ownership of firearms among law abiding citizens?

Do you believe that people should be allowed to walk into a Wal-Mart and buy a silencer....or machine gun for that matter as long as they pass a background check?

Do you agree with the way Texas enforces the law regarding NFA items? If you do, can you explain the mentality behind your belief? To say that it is illegal to possess a legal item but if you can prove you have the paperwork, we wont prosecute?

Do you believe people are guilty until proven innocent?

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets look at this reasonably...

4A:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, <span style="font-weight: bold">papers</span>, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

regardless of what a statute.. which may very well be outdated... says.

Even a LEO, on duty in TX, who receives a "report" of say a person w/ a suppressor doesn't have PC or reasonable suspicion since TX recently made hunting w/ suppressors legal...

the fact that hunting w/ suppressors is legal in TX establishes that they are in fact legal to possess, therefor a reasonable person wouldn't have cause to suspect the mere possession is a crime.

any more than a "report" of a person driving is reasonable suspicion of a crime

now granted all this is theory until a case or 10 go to court

but I don't understand all the LEOs that come to these types of threads and give all the ways they CAN essentially harass citizens... then start talking about how "you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride"... then get all sandy when people don't "respect" LEOs

YMMV... but you tend to get what you give

</div></div>


Very well said FM.

As I mentioned before, this is a Supreme Court case just waiting to happen.

Anyone that cant understand the way that law was written and the way it is enforced is in complete violation of constitutional rights is just not paying attention.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I believe.. and wish I knew the case... that the SCOTUS has in fact ruled that, Texas' apparent law allowing the random stop of people who are driving and asking for their DL... just because they are in fact driving,is in fact a violation of the 4A...

I may be wrong, but I remember that almost 20yrs ago the rules for roadblocks for DL/Ins checks changed dramatically over some case

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I find interesting is windermike et al's hostile reaction to my post... when I tried to make it clear that I am a huge fan and supporter of legal C3 and DD ownership. While at the same time being committed to help prevent illegal ownership of the same items.
</div></div>s

His hostile reaction is that you are needlessly going out of your way to reinforce an unconstitutional, ridiculous law. Providing you wanted to "help prevent illegal ownership", you'd be working to change the laws on the books.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For all of you bashers that insist that an off-duty cop has no "right" to ask, I ask you this.
If you were at the dinner table and began having a heart attack in the presence of an off duty Doctor, would it seem reasonable to expect the doctor to act?
Would you not expect a police officer, witnessing a felony to act, on or off duty? </div></div>

The "off-duty cop" doesn't know if a suppressor, SBR, etc is unregistered, so it would be an assumption to presume it to be unregistered. Would one assume all cars on the street are stolen?

Many police officers are "selective" when enforcing laws. They frequently let some go and actively seek out others. That is why people get bitter. Justice is rarely applied universally or even attempted to be. It makes people bitter.

A doctor has taken an oath and is never "off-duty".

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I just don't see the reasoning behind all of this. Take the path of least resistance! </div></div>

I know this sounds kind of tin foil hattish, but the path of least resistance always leads to shackles.

It is the duty of every American that loves their freedom to constantly question government and law enforcement. To not comply easily with the laws that lead to encroachments on our freedoms and privacy.

Yes, its easy to just say here you go officer.

The right path is never the easy path.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt.</div></div>

Active lawful resistance to unconstitutional violations of our rights is our responsibility.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty.
</div></div>

I know its a bit passe to throw around founding father quotes, but they ring just as true today as they ever have. The principles of freedom from an over reaching government never change.


Its sad to see the distance and disconnect that has accumulated between our nations law enforcement and the people they are sworn to serve.

Its one of the biggest reasons I left law enforcement.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I just don't see the reasoning behind all of this. Take the path of least resistance! </div></div>

I know this sounds kind of tin foil hattish, but the path of least resistance always leads to shackles.

It is the duty of every American that loves their freedom to constantly question government and law enforcement. To not comply easily with the laws that lead to encroachments on our freedoms and privacy.

Yes, its easy to just say here you go officer.

The right path is never the easy path.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt.</div></div>

Active lawful resistance to unconstitutional violations of our rights is our responsibility.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty.
</div></div>

I know its a bit passe to throw around founding father quotes, but they ring just as true today as they ever have. The principles of freedom from an over reaching government never change.


Its sad to see the distance and disconnect that has accumulated between our nations law enforcement and the people they are sworn to serve.

Its one of the biggest reasons I left law enforcement.</div></div>

well said Lofty... also a big reason I left LE

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so... all you knowledgeable LEOs... what happens when you ask me for my stamp and I inform you that I don't receive a stamp when I legally purchase NFA items? </div></div>The officer doesn't care how you puchased it. It's the possession statute he is investigating. In that case you get asked for evidence that you are a dealer and information about where and why you are transporting them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">fdkay......I think the point you are missing is that while the law may be written that way, many here, including me, feel that is unconstitutional...Do you believe that states can and actually have passed laws that are in fact violations of constitutional rights?...</div></div>Your beliefs are irrelevant. You are free to hold them in private, we may even chat about them when you are being detained, but you are not free to act on them contrary to the law without facing the potential for punishment.

Lofty is concerned about the unconstitutionality of officers asking him questions but, FM, your 4th Amendment rights are not implicated when a cop asks you about your Form4 or dealer paperwork.

If you insist on making every stop and every question by every cop a major politico-constitutional event, then what is happening is that the world is sending you the same problem over and over again until you to get it right.

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> so you're telling me, that under TX law, you can randomly pull people over simply because they are driving? no PC for the stop?
</div></div>

In short, yes I've seen DL checkpoints set up. Granted it is usually set up with a purpose. It's usually on a "backroad" aimed at people trying to take less traveled roads in order to do other illegal acts. They are not set up "on the interstate at 5 o'clock". As far as just pulling over random people leaving a bar, we could but it would be a huge waste of time and you would probably miss the drunk because you have someone else pulled over. Just because we can doesn't mean we do.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and that you also don't need a reason to stop a random person on the street and request ID, then IF they ignore you, that gives you reasonable suspicion to detain them and conduct an investigation... </div></div>

If they are driving, they are required to show their driver's license. If they are walking, they are not required to ID them self, unless they have committed an offense.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Even a LEO, on duty in TX, who receives a "report" of say a person w/ a suppressor doesn't have PC or reasonable suspicion since TX recently made hunting w/ suppressors legal...

the fact that hunting w/ suppressors is legal in TX establishes that they are in fact legal to possess, therefor a reasonable person wouldn't have cause to suspect the mere possession is a crime.
</div></div>

Technically speaking, they are legal to hunt with according to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Code, they are illegal to posses according to the Texas Penal Code (it is just overlooked if you have your paperwork). Sometimes when they write the laws they don't always look in all the other codes to make sure nothing conflicts.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets look at this reasonably...

4A:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, <span style="font-weight: bold">papers</span>, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
</div></div>

Just out of curiosity, how is this any different than checking for your Drivers license, or hunting license, or fishing license or.... because once again they are illegal to posses, just overlooked if you have the right paperwork? I'm just asking, not trying to start shit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
so... all you knowledgeable LEOs... what happens when you ask me for my stamp and I inform you that I don't receive a stamp when I legally purchase NFA items? </div></div>

Can you explain how you legally purchased a NFA item without a stamp?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alexander</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, come to me at the range and bother me to check my papers, I will in turn ask for additional identification from you if you are not in uniform (showing me your badge does not do it for me).
</div></div>

What other identification could I show you besides my badge and credentials? That's all the ID I have and I do not carry one without the other. Again just asking.

Some of you guys are acting like officers just walk up to you and demand your paperwork. Has anyone here ever had that happen? Just because we can or do ask for your paperwork does not mean we are doing it just to bother you. We are doing our job. I would imagine that 99% of the time, they will come over and visit, or explain that the reason that they need to see your information. Whether this is because they received a complaint or whatever the reason.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with anyone, just telling what technically is the law. One thing that our department teaches from day one is discretion, and that not every offense needs to end with someone getting arrested, or even get a ticket or warning. Sometimes they just need educating. Hell sometimes I need educated, I'm human and sometimes make mistakes. Every situation is unique and should be treated as such.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

so... all you knowledgeable LEOs... what happens when you ask me for my stamp and I inform you that I don't receive a stamp when I legally purchase NFA items? </div></div>The officer doesn't care how you puchased it. It's the possession statute he is investigating. In that case you get asked for evidence that you are a dealer and information about where and why you are transporting them.

so now there's some statute requiring dealers to carry "evidence" that they are dealers? and allowing LE to require information on "where and why" they are transporting their inventory?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

for everyone's information... ONLY taxable NFA transfers have "tax stamps"

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so now there's some statute requiring dealers to carry "evidence" that they are dealers? and allowing LE to require information on "where and why" they are transporting their inventory? </div></div>I didn't say that; you are putting words in my mouth.

No statute is required. You are, as always, with a truck full of suppressors and no stamps, free to tell the officer to have a nice day.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

so... under TX law... a Sheriff (who IS the CLEO in his county)
should show up at the PD range and demand that any officers who are in possession of NFA items show "proof" that they are legally registered... then when MOST can't, because the form 5s are in a file cabinet at the PD, he should charge them all with a felony...

yeah, that makes about as much sense as an LEO, on or off duty, showing up at a RANGE and asking people to prove their firearms are legal

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so... under TX law... a Sheriff (who IS the CLEO in his county)
should show up at the PD range and demand that any officers who are in possession of NFA items show "proof" that they are legally registered... then when MOST can't, because the form 5s are in a file cabinet at the PD, he should charge them all with a felony...

yeah, that makes about as much sense as an LEO, on or off duty, showing up at a RANGE and asking people to prove their firearms are legal</div></div>

No because Penal Code 46.05 (b) "It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility."

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so... under TX law... a Sheriff (who IS the CLEO in his county)
should show up at the PD range and demand that any officers who are in possession of NFA items show "proof" that they are legally registered... then when MOST can't, because the form 5s are in a file cabinet at the PD, he should charge them all with a felony...</div></div>That makes no sense: If you spent time in LE you know that there would be no probable cause for any of those charges.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so... under TX law... a Sheriff (who IS the CLEO in his county)
should show up at the PD range and demand that any officers who are in possession of NFA items show "proof" that they are legally registered... then when MOST can't, because the form 5s are in a file cabinet at the PD, he should charge them all with a felony...

yeah, that makes about as much sense as an LEO, on or off duty, showing up at a RANGE and asking people to prove their firearms are legal</div></div>

WOW REALLY?!?! Could he do it....yes. Again just because he can doesn't mean he will. Mainly because he knows the paperwork exists. If I'm at the Rifles Only range and everyone has suppressors, I'm not checking anyone because I know that if they are there they have all their paperwork. You are still missing the point of just because we CAN check for paperwork doesn't mean that we WILL.</div></div>

no... you're missing the point that 2 (in this thread) of your "brothers" said that they would

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">fdkay......I think the point you are missing is that while the law may be written that way, many here, including me, feel that is unconstitutional...Do you believe that states can and actually have passed laws that are in fact violations of constitutional rights?...</div></div>Your beliefs are irrelevant. You are free to hold them in private, we may even chat about them when you are being detained, but you are not free to act on them contrary to the law without facing the potential for punishment.

</div></div>

Are we beginning to see the disconnect between the people and the mentality of law enforcement that are supposed to be sworn to serve them?

My beliefs are irrelevant?

Actually, no they are not. See I dont live in Texas or Michigan for that matter....so Texas/Michigan law enforcement and Texas/Michigan laws can kiss my ass.....that about sum it up for you?

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

ForceMultiplier read my edited post...Like I said earlier I'm human and make mistakes.

Penal Code 46.05 (b) "It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility."

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

As to the the law being unconstitutional...take it to court and get it overthrown. Until then you still have to abide by it or possibly suffer the consequences.

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Lofty, you don't have to come to Texas that's your choice. However if you do come to Texas it's in your best interest to follow the state laws.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

in fact, they said it was their job... so if it's their job to "harass" citizens at the range... it is the Sheriff's job to "harass" the PD... and DPS' job to "harass" the Sheriff's dept. etc, etc....


it's retarded... period... I personally think it's beatable in court. Granted it doesn't matter what I think, until some asshole LEO, like those 2, walks up to me at the range that's 2 minutes away, and wants to be a dick because I grabbed a rifle w/ a can real quick to check something and left the paperwork in the file cabinet...

at which pint, he's going to learn that a state statute doesn't trump the Constitution of the US...

now granted... Oklahoma doesn't have exactly the same stautes, but close NFA items are illegal, unless they comply w/ the NFA...
since mine do, and I'm on private property, and there is no requirement for me to carry any paperwork...

AND suppressors specifically are legal to hunt w/ in Oklahoma starting Nov 1st... Legal to own and use forever in accordance w/ the federal NFA... and I'm on (private property) a legal rob and gun club....

I'm going to sue the hell out of him and his department...

now I personally probably have very little to worry about... since I used to be LE in the area (next county over) and worked w/ most of the older guys around here at one time or another.. to the point that most of the officers around here knows what I drive and just wave or pull me over to ask about a gun... in fact, if anyone else drives my Jeep, and some officer sees them somewhere, they get asked how they know me

I guess my dinosaur ass just doesn't get why on earth any officer would randomly ask a guy at the range for NFA paperwork, just because he saw a SBR or suppressor... and that's EXACTLY what Sihrmechanic or whatever his name is said he'd do...

then SniperCJ jumped in saying basically... hell yeah, cause in TX we damn sure can

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so... under TX law... a Sheriff (who IS the CLEO in his county)
should show up at the PD range and demand that any officers who are in possession of NFA items show "proof" that they are legally registered... then when MOST can't, because the form 5s are in a file cabinet at the PD, he should charge them all with a felony...</div></div>That makes no sense: If you spent time in LE you know that there would be no probable cause for any of those charges.</div></div>

Graham... TX LEOs are telling me they don't need PC... that the mere possession of an NFA item IS PC in TX

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

and that merely driving is PC for a stop

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are we beginning to see the disconnect between the people and the mentality of law enforcement that are supposed to be sworn to serve them?

My beliefs are irrelevant?

Actually, no they are not. See I dont live in Texas or Michigan for that matter....so Texas/Michigan law enforcement and Texas/Michigan laws can kiss my ass.....that about sum it up for you? </div></div>You are correct: The disconnect is evident. But your beliefs won't carry the day in your own state either.

Because the law doesn't exist to guarantee that your point of view gets enforced. And the arriving officer isn't there to see things only the way you see them. He has a responsibility not only to you, but also to the law, to the court, to his department and to the community - all of whom may or may not believe what you believe.

You have no contitutional right not to be inconvenienced due to the mere presence of other people on the planet. And the officer isn't to blame for your hostility at having to interact with other members of a society, be it at the range or otherwise.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to sue the hell out of him and his department...</div></div>Under what legal theory?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham... TX LEOs are telling me they don't need PC... that the mere possession of an NFA item IS PC in TX </div></div>FM, assuming that the mere possession of a silencer is illegal in Texas, and that unlike in Michigan the law does not automatically exempt people with NFA paperwork, then seeing someone with a silencer would be probable cause that the person is in violation of the law.

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Ok let me ask you this. Would you have an issue if an ATF agent asked to see your paperwork? If not, what is the difference?

I don't recall ever seeing it in the constitution that you were entitled to own suppressors/SBR's/etc. State law is still the law until ruled to be unconstitutional, and can be more restrictive than federal law. When you commit an offense, some of your liberties get taken away for a period of time. How long that period is depends on the offense, and steps taken to remedy it. That may be as simple as pulling out a piece of paper, it may not be that simple.

I may be wrong but I do not recall anyone saying that it was "their job to harass citizens at a range". I do remember several saying that it was their job to make sure people follow the law.

Going back to semantics/technicalities, it doesn't really matter if you are on private property. If you are going by face value of everything you are still committing an offense in plain view. Just the same as if you shot someone on private property. Yes that is an extreme example but like I say semantics/technicalities.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

It's clear you guys are arguing with kooks who have no concept of society, as if they walk around with a shield and cannot be questioned or even spoken too for any reason. What country they live in I have no idea but clearly they are not paying attention, or are reading too many politically charged emails.

The funny thing, this attitude is exactly what gets them into trouble. They look for it and secretly fantasize about it hoping they can "sue" someone or make enough of an fuss to prove some unrealistic point.

Want to "stick it to the man" take your suppressor paperwork and copy it at a reduced size, about as big as business card and laminate it. Then when the po-po asks you for it, you can really make his day. Still I don't know why he would ask you for it, 8 years and 20+ suppressors and nobody has asked me and I am out every week just looking for trouble, cause I have em with me. But I think with your vibe you're putting out there, it's only a matter of time.

The funniest part of all this, arguing with a lawyer who is in law enforcement, D'oh !

Guys, seriously go back to digging the holes in your backyard cause the zombies are massing, last time I checked they are at our southern border only 6ft away.

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok let me ask you this. Would you have an issue if an ATF agent asked to see your paperwork? If not, what is the difference?</div></div>The ATF issued the Form 4.

 

[txgw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But I think with your vibe you're putting out there, it's only a matter of time.
</div></div>

+1000

 

[Matt.Cross]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't recall ever seeing it in the constitution that you were entitled to own suppressors/SBR's/etc. State law is still the law until ruled to be unconstitutional, and can be more restrictive than federal law.
</div></div>

By federal law suppressors and SBRs are still classified as firearms, which would make them subject to our constitutional rights to them. This is also true at the state level in my case.

 

[DrRansom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its one of the biggest reasons I left law enforcement.</div></div>

Your acknowledgment of the current status quo wrt LE is one of the biggest reasons I wish you'd stayed.

Not that I can blame you.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt.Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't recall ever seeing it in the constitution that you were entitled to own suppressors/SBR's/etc. State law is still the law until ruled to be unconstitutional, and can be more restrictive than federal law.
</div></div>

By federal law suppressors and SBRs are still classified as firearms, which would make them subject to our constitutional rights to them. This is also true at the state level in my case.</div></div>

Matt that would be like saying you have a constitutional right to a Machine Gun, and that if you were at a range spraying on full auto, you're protected... ah no.

There are exceptions ... which is why we have extra paperwork.

 

[Matt.Cross]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt.Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txgw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't recall ever seeing it in the constitution that you were entitled to own suppressors/SBR's/etc. State law is still the law until ruled to be unconstitutional, and can be more restrictive than federal law.
</div></div>

By federal law suppressors and SBRs are still classified as firearms, which would make them subject to our constitutional rights to them. This is also true at the state level in my case.</div></div>

Matt that would be like saying you have a constitutional right to a Machine Gun, and that if you were at a range spraying on full auto, you're protected... ah no.

There are exceptions ... which is why we have extra paperwork. </div></div>

I had no intention of implying that I have a constitutional right to full auto on the range... I merely meant to make clear that US Federal law places NFA items squarely in the same constitutional jurisdiction as ordinary firearms, but with much more rigorous restrictions. At the state level, the laws get much more complex, and that's where you are going to run into whether or not you have a right to own one. The point of focus here was the Constitutional perspective and Federal law.

 

[bm11]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drew_1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it is not our God given right to own these types of weapons or devices. It is a privilege to own these items, and we've earned the right to do so through our actions as ADULTS. We've earned this right by being responsible citizens and our government has approved our ownership of these devices. Whether you agree with that or not, this it how I perceive it. I'm not saying that I agree with everything our government does, as I know most of you don't, but that's how it is and I'll comply with the rules. This privilege can also be taken away from us, just as our driving and voting privileges, as well as our handgun permits (at least in Indiana). These privileges can be taken away if it's determined that we are no longer responsible citizens.
</div></div>Actually, this line of thought IS essentially wrong. It is not a privilege to own firearms, it IS a god given right under the Second Amendment. It is the reason why why have the National Firearm Act and not just a ban on machine guns, suppressor, and SBR's. In 1934 the act was passed after a failed attempt to ban these items due to being unconstitutional. They did the next bedtime thing they could and put an excise tax on these items of a prohibitive amount- $200.

You are not paying for the privilege, you are paying a tax because that was the way our government exploited a loophole to do something essentially unconstitutional.

The second amendment is a RIGHT, not a PRIVILEGE. And to think that way will eventually allow these rights to be forgotten as privileges that may be taken away.

The fact that some states have enacted unconstitutional laws also plays into this debate, but we should never forget that the right to keep and bear arms is not a privilege that can be taken away, which is why I believe this thread has been so polarizing. Many of us feel the need to defend our rights as rights and not to take the path if least resistance that ultimately leads to these rights going away.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's clear you guys are arguing with kooks who have no concept of society, as if they walk around with a shield and cannot be questioned or even spoken too for any reason. What country they live in I have no idea but clearly they are not paying attention, or are reading too many politically charged emails.

The funny thing, this attitude is exactly what gets them into trouble. They look for it and secretly fantasize about it hoping they can "sue" someone or make enough of an fuss to prove some unrealistic point.

Want to "stick it to the man" take your suppressor paperwork and copy it at a reduced size, about as big as business card and laminate it. Then when the po-po asks you for it, you can really make his day. Still I don't know why he would ask you for it, 8 years and 20+ suppressors and nobody has asked me and I am out every week just looking for trouble, cause I have em with me. But I think with your vibe you're putting out there, it's only a matter of time.

The funniest part of all this, arguing with a lawyer who is in law enforcement, D'oh !

Guys, seriously go back to digging the holes in your backyard cause the zombies are massing, last time I checked they are at our southern border only 6ft away. </div></div>

Actually its kinda surprising to hear this come from you.

So my being concerned about the erosion of freedoms in this country and the encroachment of government into more and more of our rights and personal lives makes me a zombie survival nut?

I do walk around with a shield.....I was born with it, its the constitution and the Bill of Rights. I'm surprised to hear you make light of it.

Of course the best way to discredit someone, no matter how valid their point, is ridicule.

I am not looking to sue anyone and if it was up to me I would avoid contact with any law enforcement acting in a law enforcement role from now until the day I die.

I dont want conflict and prefer to be left alone. If I saw an officer in need and no back up was available I would render aid if it didnt put my family in danger.

Im not a rebel and Im not looking for a fight. That being said I expect the same attitude from the law enforcement officers that serve my community.

Unfortunately in my many years as a police officer myself, that wasnt the pervasive attitude of law enforcement officers with which I worked.

 

[DrRansom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's clear you guys are arguing with kooks who have no concept of society, as if they walk around with a shield and cannot be questioned or even spoken too for any reason. What country they live in I have no idea but clearly they are not paying attention, or are reading too many politically charged emails.

The funny thing, this attitude is exactly what gets them into trouble. They look for it and secretly fantasize about it hoping they can "sue" someone or make enough of an fuss to prove some unrealistic point.

...

Guys, seriously go back to digging the holes in your backyard cause the zombies are massing, last time I checked they are at our southern border only 6ft away. </div></div>

Disagree completely. The rights in this country have taken serious strides for the worse, not the least of which is the growing divide between civilians and law enforcement - of whom are "supposed" to be civilians.

We see instances every day of law enforcement getting away with crimes that "normal" civilians would be jailed for.

In my state, I see LEs get privileged treatment in almost every way. To put the icing on the cake, a large portion of them walk around and treat everyone like shit, then rationalize this behavior by dreaming up some "thin blue line" bullshit. Having a bad day? Don't fuck with the badge gang, or you will get a taste of their authority.

That you dismiss anyone who has differing opinions as tin-foil hatters just shows that you've never seen the other side of this coin up close and personal. People who stand up for the Constitution of this country should be lauded, but that's obviously not the case. No one here is advocating breaking any laws.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I still fail to see where it is an issue,

Do any of you guys have examples of being "randomly" stopped for using a suppressor and required to "show" papers ? I don't mean at a range where you sign in an some idiot asks to make sure, that is just protecting the range, I mean where an Officer of the Law has asked you to show proof of legal ownership ?

I have never heard of anyone being questioned, at least not to the degree on display here. I mean, even the TSA ignores them, and those guys are generally speaking clueless. So where is this an issue beyond your "what if" bullshit ?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DrRansom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's clear you guys are arguing with kooks who have no concept of society, as if they walk around with a shield and cannot be questioned or even spoken too for any reason. What country they live in I have no idea but clearly they are not paying attention, or are reading too many politically charged emails.

The funny thing, this attitude is exactly what gets them into trouble. They look for it and secretly fantasize about it hoping they can "sue" someone or make enough of an fuss to prove some unrealistic point.

...

Guys, seriously go back to digging the holes in your backyard cause the zombies are massing, last time I checked they are at our southern border only 6ft away. </div></div>

Disagree completely. The rights in this country have taken serious strides for the worse, not the least of which is the growing divide between civilians and law enforcement - of whom are "supposed" to be civilians.

We see instances every day of law enforcement getting away with crimes that "normal" civilians would be jailed for.

In my state, I see LEs get privileged treatment in almost every way. To put the icing on the cake, a large portion of them walk around and treat everyone like shit, then rationalize this behavior by dreaming up some "thin blue line" bullshit. Having a bad day? Don't fuck with the badge gang, or you will get a taste of their authority.

That you dismiss anyone who has differing opinions as tin-foil hatters just shows that you've never seen the other side of this coin up close and personal. People who stand up for the Constitution of this country should be lauded, but that's obviously not the case. No one here is advocating breaking any laws.</div></div>

So what you are telling me is, this is not about Suppressors or NFA items, but really a COP HATING thread... you're just using the suppressor issue to get there ?

You feel the Po Po is up to no good and you're on the hit list... Oh well why didn't you say so up front. Why all the suppressor bullshit

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drew_1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it is not our God given right to own these types of weapons or devices. It is a privilege to own these items, and we've earned the right to do so through our actions as ADULTS. We've earned this right by being responsible citizens and our government has approved our ownership of these devices. Whether you agree with that or not, this it how I perceive it. I'm not saying that I agree with everything our government does, as I know most of you don't, but that's how it is and I'll comply with the rules. This privilege can also be taken away from us, just as our driving and voting privileges, as well as our handgun permits (at least in Indiana). These privileges can be taken away if it's determined that we are no longer responsible citizens.
</div></div>Actually, this line of thought IS essentially wrong. It is not a privilege to own firearms, it IS a god given right under the Second Amendment. It is the reason why why have the National Firearm Act and not just a ban on machine guns, suppressor, and SBR's. In 1934 the act was passed after a failed attempt to ban these items due to being unconstitutional. They did the next bedtime thing they could and put an excise tax on these items of a prohibitive amount- $200.

You are not paying for the privilege, you are paying a tax because that was the way our government exploited a loophole to do something essentially unconstitutional.

The second amendment is a RIGHT, not a PRIVILEGE. And to think that way will eventually allow these rights to be forgotten as privileges that may be taken away.

The fact that some states have enacted unconstitutional laws also plays into this debate, but we should never forget that the right to keep and bear arms is not a privilege that can be taken away, which is why I believe this thread has been so polarizing. Many of us feel the need to defend our rights as rights and not to take the path if least resistance that ultimately leads to these rights going away. </div></div>

Very well said but I'll go one step further.

The Bill of Rights does not grant me the right to bear arms.

I am born with them....they are mine, damn the Bill of Rights.

The BoR is the contract between the government and the people it IS SUPPOSED TO SERVE that makes sure the government doesnt breach those rights. The BoR acknowledges that God gave me those rights as a free human...not government, not a piece of paper.

The piece of paper simply enumerates the guidelines under which the government must control itself to ensure it doesnt violate those rights.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Wow,

Debating something that has been the rule since before any of you were born... how's that working out for you. All that high flying talk and the laws are still the same and have been in place for 80 years or so.

"I was born with the right to have my suppressor and use it too, and God said, on the afternoon of the 13th Day, let there be Full Auto"

Do you guys read what you write or just copy it paste it ?

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still fail to see where it is an issue,

Do any of you guys have examples of being "randomly" stopped for using a suppressor and required to "show" papers ? I don't mean at a range where you sign in an some idiot asks to make sure, that is just protecting the range, I mean where an Officer of the Law has asked you to show proof of legal ownership ?

I have never heard of anyone being questioned, at least not to the degree on display here. I mean, even the TSA ignores them, and those guys are generally speaking clueless. So where is this an issue beyond your "what if" bullshit ?

</div></div>

Well the "what if" is what we are talking about.

Obviously a LEO that leaves me alone while i go about my law abiding ways draws no scorn from me.

If a cop, on or off duty, approached me at a range out of curiosity about my NFA items I would be glad to shoot the shit with him, show them to him, let him shoot them....shit I dont care.

This aint a cop hating thread in my eyes. Hell, Id be hating half my family if that was my view.

To me this is more about the attitude of some cops and the concept that they feel you are guilty until proven innocent.

Look, our gun rights in this country are always under assault and are hanging on by a thread.....we need to fight for them at every turn if we want to keep them.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow,

Debating something that has been the rule since before any of you were born... how's that working out for you. All that high flying talk and the laws are still the same and have been in place for 80 years or so.

"I was born with the right to have my suppressor and use it too, and God said, on the afternoon of the 13th Day, let there be Full Auto"

Do you guys read what you write or just copy it paste it ? </div></div>

So the alternative is what?

To ignore unconstitutional violations of our rights? Dont even discuss it? Just because its been that way for 80 years means what.....it cant be changed?

With that mentality youre right.....it never will.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

It's absolutely a, "all cops are evil until proven not" thread... you all just said so in plain language.

None of you can cite any wide spread cases regarding this issue. It's simply not an issue and this is just a case where you are using the idea of it to say, "all cops are bad unless i know they are not".

You're liberty in this area is not under assault, because you can walk into a Class III gun shop today, buy a suppressor and mail in the paperwork. In fact Suppressor ownership is at it's highest levels of any time in our history. Suppressor companies are not getting shut down, but expanding, range's aren't making rules to ban use, in fact we have a suppressor lobbying group out there making it easier for us everyday.

You're projecting, and not very well and you're just looking for an excuse to point the finger at LE and say, "bad, bad, citizen".

 

[KHOOKS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I shoot with a bunch of LEO's form Alabama and surrounding states and I have never seen a one ask about paperwork for a Class 3 item.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

In fact I joined American Silencer Association which is working with people in Congress,

Have any of you Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of NFA Products done so ?

You're all members and have given to them so they can protect the freedoms of which you speak. In other words, everyone of you have put your money where your mouth is right ?

 

[DrRansom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are telling me is, this is not about Suppressors or NFA items, but really a COP HATING thread... you're just using the suppressor issue to get there ?

You feel the Po Po is up to no good and you're on the hit list... Oh well why didn't you say so up front. Why all the suppressor bullshit </div></div>

Why in the world would I go through the accursed process of obtaining an NFA item/supp in order to get into arguments with cops?!

I do think that opinions of those who are concerned about that particular issue should not be called names or ridiculed ("kooks", zombie-whatever...) by forum admins because they are standing up for their rights!

geez....guess i should go prep for the zombie apocalypse too, eh?

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I have been asked. Both times clean cut. Wearing khakis and a blue polo with a citibank logo. New car.

First time was when some people at an outdoor dnr range saw me verifying a zero on a suppressed rifle. They pulled up. Started walking over to the benches, saw the gun, stopped, got back into their car and left. Responding law enforcement wanted to see my "class 3" license. I finished what i was doing while they dug through my laminated super reduced flip books of random forms looking for the right one.

At one point i told them it was indeed in there. They asked which one, and i told them i had supreme confidence they would be able to figure it out. Pretty sure they gave up out of frustration.

Second time i was dressed identical. Traveling down I95 in FL at 3am or so. Was driving from SC to West Palm Beach to go fishing with my Dad for the weekend. Got pulled over for speeding, sort of. Pretty sure he did not get me clocked, just knew it was over 100mph fast. I was asked if i knew how fsst i was going. I replied i did, but did he? So he asked how fast. I told him it doesnt work that way. He was welcome to tell me what his radar said, but i was confident he didnt get it.

At that point he asked if he could search the vehicle. I said he could if i could step out and take a piss. Keep in mind we are both on the side of I95 in the fairly dark part with nothing and no one around for a good distance.

So im pissing a good bit away and he opens the trunk which is full of nfa fun and sort of freaks out on me. Drawn gun, yelling, me pissing still. I tell him he needs to call his shift sergeant and if he puts bracelets on me they are mine to keep.

So im sitting there in cuffs. A bunch of cars pull up. Everyone says im "in big trouble". Shift sergant pulls up. I ask him if he would like to see my letters from the ATF stating i can have these items. He flips through the flip book for 2 seconds and goes and counsels the officer while another officer undid the bracelets. I ask if they want to shoot them and they take turns firing a suppressed 9mm glock into the drainage on the shoulder. Everyone got to except the first officer who had to go sit in his car because i said he needed to go spend some time in "timeout".
From start to finish, took about an hour. And i kept the cuffs not because i have any use for them but because the officer had to buy another set out of his own pocket.

I have flown, driven, gone all sorts of places and those are the only times it has happened to me.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DrRansom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are telling me is, this is not about Suppressors or NFA items, but really a COP HATING thread... you're just using the suppressor issue to get there ?

You feel the Po Po is up to no good and you're on the hit list... Oh well why didn't you say so up front. Why all the suppressor bullshit </div></div>

Why in the world would I go through the accursed process of obtaining an NFA item/supp in order to get into arguments with cops?!

I do think that opinions of those who are concerned about that particular issue should not be called names or ridiculed ("kooks", zombie-whatever...) by forum admins because they are standing up for their rights!

geez....guess i should go prep for the zombie apocalypse too, eh?</div></div>

the problem is, you can't cite an issue, but you have stated you take issue with LE in this regard, despite the lack of evidence of an actual issue.

Read what YOU wrote, the issue is not owning a suppressor, traveling with a suppressor, or anything suppressor related, it's with LE... you said so...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Disagree completely. The rights in this country have taken serious strides for the worse, not the least of which is the growing divide between civilians and law enforcement - of whom are "supposed" to be civilians.

We see instances every day of law enforcement getting away with crimes that "normal" civilians would be jailed for.

In my state, I see LEs get privileged treatment in almost every way. To put the icing on the cake, a large portion of them walk around and treat everyone like shit, then rationalize this behavior by dreaming up some "thin blue line" bullshit. Having a bad day? Don't fuck with the badge gang, or you will get a taste of their authority.</div></div>

Where in any of this was it about suppressor ownership ? It was all about LE overstepping their bounds in your opinion.

If the Tin Foil Hat fits, you should be comfortable wearing it.

The reason I am telling you, and others you're off base, is because you can't cite any instances, and I have a rather large collection of the offending products, I would venture to say more than all of you combined, and I have traveled with said items all over the country. So unless you can point me to the "issue" I continue to see it as one with you and others and the dislike for LE and not about Suppressor.

Just because you all keep repeating the word, Constitution, doesn't mean you understand it.