Anti-personnel vs. anti-materiel.
But again, I don't find myself in either of those roles as a shooter. I'm just a guy pulling a trigger.
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- Thread starter garandman
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Anti-personnel vs. anti-materiel.
But again, I don't find myself in either of those roles as a shooter. I'm just a guy pulling a trigger.
I don't doubt you. Is there any chance the bullet impacted dirt before it hit the target. I see that a lot. I also see oblique key holes at long range from some projectiles that don't nose over once they go through the maximum ordinate, but they are still supersonic and accurate on-target at over 1100 meters. I was able to clearly see this on aluminum Janter targets that the Europeans use. I sure would hate to get hit by a .338 250gr Lock-Base coming down at a high angle of attack like that.
I'm going to do this same test again with dry vegetation like we have up here in the mountains, to see what it's like. Day 2 of my DM Course is basically one of the most heavy live-fire loophole exercises you will see in a precision rifle course. As such, we get a lot of interference from branches and things when the shooter doesn't check their height above bore clearance, and a small branch has always meant a miss at range, but I usually can spot a near-miss, even out to 400yds when they do it. Most of the ammunition in these courses is 77gr Mk.262 for the 5.56 guns.
I don't believe so.
Distance to target was 30 yards, from the standing position. The leaf might have been as much as 3 feet away from the target, but no more.
I cannot think of anything else that would cause a keyhole at that distance. (The rifle is in perfect working condition)
It's just hard to believe because of the velocity that .224 has at that range. Either way, I like you Sig Line. haha
what you think you saw... Did you witness the bullet impact the leaf then begin it's enhanced yaw before smacking the paper?
You started by mentioning .223 but didn't state the "delivery system". I love .223 both through my AR's and my bolt action. The AR's aren't that accurate when compared to my bolt action but they do OK. The bolt action (700 SPS-Tactical) can shoot "mouse-holes" at 200 yards using Berger 73 gr BT's. .223 Bullets (even the Bergers) are far less expensive than the .308's), less powder is used, and I don't have to chase the brass.
I shoot twice a week and am now torn between one of my AR's, the .223 Bolt action, or my .308 Custom "Tactical". Some days I just take all three and come home late with a huge smile on my face
Out of curiosity or in the name of science you should try to reproduce this.
This reminds me of something that happened 20 some years ago when a buddy of mine who was a die hard 45 acp fanboy was arguing about the ineffectiveness of a 9 millimeter. He shot at an empty oil jug in a field with a 9 mm and one of the bullets remained in the jug. He said you see there, a 9 mm can't even go through an oil jug. Well any dumbass can figure out that he shot the dirt and then when it hit the jug it had almost no energy left.
I believe LRRPF52 said it best in regards to the 5.56. I do not agree when the 5.56 is described as "mousy". When I was in the marines, there were plenty of nay sayers and 5.56 bashers. In my experience their opinions were unfounded, and based off of what their drill instructors told them in boot camp (some marines would even opt to use iron sights over their ACOG in Afghanistan even when the average engagement was 300-400 meters). I have seen the 5.56 drop an enemy combatant with authority at 453 meters, as if his legs were just taken out from under him. I have also unfortunately seen a child take a stray round in the leg from a SAW and not even shed a tear. Bullets can sometimes be unpredictable in regards to terminal performance. And that goes for any caliber. A sniper in our battalion, whose testimony I trust, shot an insurgent in the abdomen with a Barrett M82 and mk211 raufoss ammunition, only to watch that same insurgent get back up and try to run away. I am a firm believer that there is no one-shot stop caliber, unless that caliber strikes the the brain or cns, in which case the caliber essentially becomes irrelevant.
I love the 5.56. I also love the .308 and .260 Remington. I would not expect my 5.56 rifles to ballistically match larger cartridges at longer ranges, and it doesn't upset me when they can't. My mk12 impresses me every time I shoot it, but it does not match my m40 at 700+.
I love the 5.56. I also love the .308 and .260 Remington. I would not expect my 5.56 rifles to ballistically match larger cartridges at longer ranges, and it doesn't upset me when they can't. My mk12 impresses me every time I shoot it, but it does not match my m40 at 700+.
No I know exactly what I saw. And now I see people who weren't there trying to tell me they better know what I saw than I do.
You GOTTA love the interwebz. lol
People....GET OVER the combat scenarios / analogies. I told you - this isn't a thread about combat.
Its about the usefulness I PERSONALLY find for the 223 / 5,56, and most particularly the 55 grain 5.56
Its about the usefulness I PERSONALLY find for the 223 / 5,56, and most particularly the 55 grain 5.56
There was a Marine Sniper in OIF1 who shot a kid with an AK at around 500m IIRC. He wasn't able to recover the body, after seeing the kid escape his FOV.
Later, his unit had a POW collection point, and he immediately recognized the kid, had one of the Marines guarding the POW's and an interpreter instruct the kid to lift up his shirt. There was a clean through-and-through bullet hole that passed within the intercostal spaces, missed everything vital, and exited his back, very close to his heart.
He tried to adopt the kid and take him back to the States, but JAG wouldn't hear of it.
Charlie Beckwith, who founded SFOD-D, was shot in the stomach with a 12.7mm machine gun in Vietnam in 1966, was on the verge of being declared dead, underwent surgery, recovered, and even went back for another deployment to Vietnam.
While these are anecdotal, they reenforce the approach of placing as many rounds on target as quickly as possible, and follow-up shot ability is critical to that.
For me, I got entirely out of .308 after getting into the Grendel and .260 Remington. This is coming from a guy who had dreamed of a 7.62 NATO "CAR-15" since childhood, thinking that would be the cat's meow of fighting shoulder-fired arms. I've owned 3 different AR10-type rifles from Armalite, DPMS, and GA Precision, which were all 24" or 22" guns, but I always had plans to build a nice, lightweight 7.62 NATO carbine after the Clinton AWB expired. The 16" Grendel ruined those plans for me personally.
Later, his unit had a POW collection point, and he immediately recognized the kid, had one of the Marines guarding the POW's and an interpreter instruct the kid to lift up his shirt. There was a clean through-and-through bullet hole that passed within the intercostal spaces, missed everything vital, and exited his back, very close to his heart.
He tried to adopt the kid and take him back to the States, but JAG wouldn't hear of it.
Charlie Beckwith, who founded SFOD-D, was shot in the stomach with a 12.7mm machine gun in Vietnam in 1966, was on the verge of being declared dead, underwent surgery, recovered, and even went back for another deployment to Vietnam.
While these are anecdotal, they reenforce the approach of placing as many rounds on target as quickly as possible, and follow-up shot ability is critical to that.
For me, I got entirely out of .308 after getting into the Grendel and .260 Remington. This is coming from a guy who had dreamed of a 7.62 NATO "CAR-15" since childhood, thinking that would be the cat's meow of fighting shoulder-fired arms. I've owned 3 different AR10-type rifles from Armalite, DPMS, and GA Precision, which were all 24" or 22" guns, but I always had plans to build a nice, lightweight 7.62 NATO carbine after the Clinton AWB expired. The 16" Grendel ruined those plans for me personally.
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ONly reason I have a .223 is for the wife, she prefers a semi auto so she doesn't have to move to cycle the bolt which allows her to stay on target. SHe won't shoot my 6.8 because it has a pinned flash hider and the recoil is too much for her preference. If I knew she was going to try shooting and enjoy it this much, I would have kept at least one of my ar-10's. THe .260 would have been a great caliber for her to shoot and she would probably sell the .223.
THIS is what I'm talking about - a personal journey AWAY from 5.56 once I got the 308. And after that, a departure from .308 once I found 6.5mm and other calibers.
I still have a big role for 5.56 in my uses, but it has been largely displaced when I think about shooting past 400yds with an AR15.
One interesting thing I noticed is that one of the civilian small arms engineers in Army Ordnance Corps in the early 1960's tried to tell McNamara's "Whiz Kids" that they needed a slightly larger case if they were to fulfill the 500yd steel helmet perforation requirement. He was told to pound sand, and treated like garbage.
He wanted to use the .25 Remington necked down, which would allow more case capacity in order to spit a slightly heavier 62gr or 68gr projectile with a higher BC for better retained energy. A re-design of the rifle around a new case at the time would have likely killed the AR15, since they needed a new rifle badly to issue to units since the M14 was way behind on its production schedule.
Stoner was a .30 caliber aficianado, and didn't really like the AR15, but did his job in providing a .224" Small Caliber High Velocity Rifle to the Army Ordnance solicitation for the competition against Winchester's .224 Light Rifle. In the end, we got a system that allows the soldier to carry way more ammunition than you ever could with 7.62 NATO, which equates to much longer combat endurance once you start figuring in chance-contact, continue mission, FRAGO combat patrol profiles.
With 7.62 NATO, it's chance contact, need resupply or die in place. The Russians took notice duly, and responded with the 5.45x39/AK74/RPK74 system.
One interesting thing I noticed is that one of the civilian small arms engineers in Army Ordnance Corps in the early 1960's tried to tell McNamara's "Whiz Kids" that they needed a slightly larger case if they were to fulfill the 500yd steel helmet perforation requirement. He was told to pound sand, and treated like garbage.
He wanted to use the .25 Remington necked down, which would allow more case capacity in order to spit a slightly heavier 62gr or 68gr projectile with a higher BC for better retained energy. A re-design of the rifle around a new case at the time would have likely killed the AR15, since they needed a new rifle badly to issue to units since the M14 was way behind on its production schedule.
Stoner was a .30 caliber aficianado, and didn't really like the AR15, but did his job in providing a .224" Small Caliber High Velocity Rifle to the Army Ordnance solicitation for the competition against Winchester's .224 Light Rifle. In the end, we got a system that allows the soldier to carry way more ammunition than you ever could with 7.62 NATO, which equates to much longer combat endurance once you start figuring in chance-contact, continue mission, FRAGO combat patrol profiles.
With 7.62 NATO, it's chance contact, need resupply or die in place. The Russians took notice duly, and responded with the 5.45x39/AK74/RPK74 system.
I have no love for 223. I have owned multiple rifles in it, I always end up selling them. I keep my r700 sps-v for prairie dogs. 308 Winchester in a piston driven gas gun is the way to go.
Meh, I'll look past your first sentence and point out that to many who have been there and done that, the Mk12 is very viable. We're having this conversation because you made a comment about the Mk12 being in a "mouse caliber" and someone else pointed out that many have used it in harm's way with great success. Many times, carrying two different types of ammo and rifles is not doable or not needed. For the hobbyist and certain roles, yes .308/7.62x51mm does make sense. However, "mouse caliber" belongs with the silly term "poodle shooter," not that it isn't your right to denigrate it based on your personal observations as opposed to the many of us that deployed with and learned to trust this "mouse caliber."
And your 2 posts carry no weight with me as I HAVE REPEATEDLY STATED this thread is NOT a military oriented thread, and has NOTHING TO DO with the combat effectiveness of the MK12.
Can you comprehend that basic concept?
The 223 (particularly the 55gr) is:
1. Too small for big game hunting
2. Makes holes too small to be seen at 200 yards in many conditions in NRA Highpower competition
3. Doesn't reach far enuf for my interests
4. Is too expensive for plinking. My 22rf AR upper serves that purpose.
See? This MOUSY caliber (not enuf energy transfer for hunting / holes too small to be seen / limited range) has little / no use for me, and you'll note I didn't reference ANYTHING about military usage.
Comprende?
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I am sure I am in the minority as I purchased my first rifle in 5.56/.223 this year (bolt action). I have never been a big fan of regular AR's. I do have an M4 in a larger caliber but only shot 5.56/.223 while on active duty. Hope I'm not over it as I just started but I may also pick up a 6.5 creedmoor so the 5.56 may not get much use for some time. Too many rifles, so little time
The .223/5.56 is still worthy.
*I've harvested numerous white tails with 69 SMK's and 75 bthp's (nice light weight package to carry in the woods)
*Shot many of times out to 600m with regular success. It's just another tool in the tool shed.
Consider a .223ai pushing a 75 gr AMAX @3100 fps, ballistically, it out performs a .308 (175 smk) out to 600 meters. Efficient cartridge that utilizes all of the same components of the "mouse round".
*I've harvested numerous white tails with 69 SMK's and 75 bthp's (nice light weight package to carry in the woods)
*Shot many of times out to 600m with regular success. It's just another tool in the tool shed.
Consider a .223ai pushing a 75 gr AMAX @3100 fps, ballistically, it out performs a .308 (175 smk) out to 600 meters. Efficient cartridge that utilizes all of the same components of the "mouse round".
I would use my 556 on deer if it were legal in my state but I assume the dnr didn't want guys with ar hunting in parties so they made the minimum caliber 243 win. I have shot a deer with a 243 and it was a bang flop, I assume with correct projectile the 223 could do the same but oval all shot placement is always key.
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The thing is.... all the supposed usefulness comes from "specialty" .223 .... 69 / 75 grainers, and 223ai.... all of which is an attempt to make the 223 viable.
My thoughts more relate to 55 grain bullets. (I wasn't clear about that in my original post, perhaps, but have since tried to further define my thoughts)
But even with the heavy weights..... if I'm gonna handload 75 grainers, or go with the 223ai, I might as well just start with a caliber that can do all that ... and far more.
I need to be careful to clearly state I'm not trying to sour anyone else on 223, but rather to explain why I have.
'
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Dumb laws, ours in Virginia "Rifles used for deer or bear must be .23 caliber or larger."
Isn't that part of the beauty of a NATO cartridge? Many manufactures have offered the civilian market the resources to push the 5.56 even harder without all the draw backs of going to a .308 bolt face platform. Perhaps I'm so partial to the 5.56 is due to the fact I roll my own (I refuse to buy factory ammo). I can tailor the loads for my intended purpose at almost have the cost of say a .308 (components wise).
Sounds like your only complaint is with the 55 grain projectile (which is viable).
55gr is viable in a military context, which is not my life situation. Its too expensive to plink with tho - I've got a 22rf upper for that.
I started with a 223 bolt gun, got a M4 Carbine, then built a MK12 / SPR. Next added a 700PSS in .308 and a DPMS SASS / AR10 clone. I shot the 69/75's in the MK12, and 168's in the AR10.
I've sold them all (I still got the M4 as a 22rf host) for the 4 reasons I mentioned above.
But what you say is true ... its cool a NATO round has been widely developed as it has.
Yup. I don't think I've seen anyone here defending the 55 gr round. I should have been clearer that was my main beef...
Won't disagree with ya... maybe on coyotes (52 grain v-max pushed at 3k plus work well
).55gr does really well for varmints, as well as humans at 100-125yds from a 16" if it's M193, or any bullet designed to expand.
A significant and increasingly expanding portion of the shooting population has adopted military-style CQM training approaches, while applying much of that shooting style in competitive action shooting events that were in their infancy mainly with pistols when I was a kid (1980's).
With 3-gun, USPSA, multi-gun, and many matches with stages set on rough terrain and urban structures with vehicles and timed run-and-gun courses, an AR15 with a light-recoiling close-range load is hard to beat. That is where .223 or 5.56 NATO with a 55gr makes a lot of sense for many of us.
If you are punching paper for x-ring count at distance, then you will of course use a load with a better BC and consistent jacket-to-core construction.
For the folks who just want to shoot recreationally, "cheap" .223 ammunition is fun and doesn't bring a recoil penalty with it. It is especially nice for introducing new shooters to the sport and responsibility of firearms ownership and enjoyment, so I only see a bright future for .223 Remington in these regards, while the variant cartridges continue to expand and evolve for those of us who have specific hunting and target-shooting needs that .223 Rem doesn't quite meet.
A significant and increasingly expanding portion of the shooting population has adopted military-style CQM training approaches, while applying much of that shooting style in competitive action shooting events that were in their infancy mainly with pistols when I was a kid (1980's).
With 3-gun, USPSA, multi-gun, and many matches with stages set on rough terrain and urban structures with vehicles and timed run-and-gun courses, an AR15 with a light-recoiling close-range load is hard to beat. That is where .223 or 5.56 NATO with a 55gr makes a lot of sense for many of us.
If you are punching paper for x-ring count at distance, then you will of course use a load with a better BC and consistent jacket-to-core construction.
For the folks who just want to shoot recreationally, "cheap" .223 ammunition is fun and doesn't bring a recoil penalty with it. It is especially nice for introducing new shooters to the sport and responsibility of firearms ownership and enjoyment, so I only see a bright future for .223 Remington in these regards, while the variant cartridges continue to expand and evolve for those of us who have specific hunting and target-shooting needs that .223 Rem doesn't quite meet.
I used suppressed 22rf for that. No hearing protection, true zero recoil, 100 rounds about $5 (a lot less than that for me personally as I bought in bulk a few years ago)
Another big consideration that gets overlooked is the region you live in, and what types of ranges you have access to. Out here, we can drive into the desert and we can never bring enough gun. A .223 Rem is a nice little plinker that barely satisfies our close-range distances. In the end, we really would be better served with Lahti 20mm Anti-Tank rifles, which is on the bucket list for me right next to a nice 81mm mortar.
Out East in the sticks, .223 Rem is plenty for most things, until you pay membership at a club with cleared flat ranges. I've lived in 8 different States from CA to ME, GA to WA, VA to CO, and UT to NC. The shooting culture out in the Western high deserts and mountains is significantly different than that of the Eastern Sea Board.
Historically, the Mississippi divide has been a general marker for caliber preferences with hunters as well, but the US's vast and connected marketplace blurs the regional geographic demands so that you will see all of the calibers spread across the Union, but you clearly see dominance of the .270 Winchester and Magnums out West, while the .243 Winchester seems to be more popular out East.
Average game weight, particularly with deer, is different too, but you start to see heavier deer the more north you go in the Eastern Sea Board, so that they are pretty big in Maine. Out here in the Rockies, we have a lot of mule deer that average much larger than you typically see south of the Mason-Dixon line, and they like to keep their distance in season. You still have mulies in the very south of New Mexico though.
Geography drives culture. I even see it in action-shooting. A 3-gun match in the Rockies is almost a different type of event compared to one in NC or SC.
Out East in the sticks, .223 Rem is plenty for most things, until you pay membership at a club with cleared flat ranges. I've lived in 8 different States from CA to ME, GA to WA, VA to CO, and UT to NC. The shooting culture out in the Western high deserts and mountains is significantly different than that of the Eastern Sea Board.
Historically, the Mississippi divide has been a general marker for caliber preferences with hunters as well, but the US's vast and connected marketplace blurs the regional geographic demands so that you will see all of the calibers spread across the Union, but you clearly see dominance of the .270 Winchester and Magnums out West, while the .243 Winchester seems to be more popular out East.
Average game weight, particularly with deer, is different too, but you start to see heavier deer the more north you go in the Eastern Sea Board, so that they are pretty big in Maine. Out here in the Rockies, we have a lot of mule deer that average much larger than you typically see south of the Mason-Dixon line, and they like to keep their distance in season. You still have mulies in the very south of New Mexico though.
Geography drives culture. I even see it in action-shooting. A 3-gun match in the Rockies is almost a different type of event compared to one in NC or SC.
223 is a great round. It's very versatile and doesn't burn the barrel out. You can stock up on it for shtf for you ARs. And it's quite lethal.
I have not given up. Plenty of learning can be had with the 223 or 5.56.
Does it take a belted mag to kill todays smaller modern deer? Nope
Can the 223 with 55gr bullets kill deer reliable? Yup
Have I shot and killed a deer with a 223 and 55gr PSP ammo? Yup
Have a harvested enough deer with a 223 to fill a bus? Yup, as long as it is not a jumbo bus.
It is easier to use something bigger. Yup. Granted if you are shooting 85 feet why not use something smaller?
Is the 308 the end all be all of shooting? Nope. (That was a sad day when I found that out.)
If you want to shoot larger stuff then please do so. If you are shooting close range on paper or just to bang steel or rocks why spend more cash to do that?
Is the 223 with a 55gr bullet the best combo out there? Hell no. Can it shoot well? Yes it can. I shot pulled down M-193 across the course for almost a whole summer. I never had any problems seeing my shots. That is 88shots a week plus 88 rds and 66 for the three 22 shot side matches for the monthly match. My scores with a bone stock AR-15A2 and 55gr ball were better than some who were shooting match rifles and match ammo. That is to include a Tubb2k in 308. Yes that is 506rds a month. Am I the best shot out there? Sadly no. It comes down to the Indian not the arrow.
Today I mainly shoot my 300WM and my 6mmBr.
Firearms and ammo are like golf clubs. You have your short game clubs and your clubs if you are going to long ball it in. The 223 really fits the bill when extreme distance and power are not needed. Really who wants to shoot a 338LM just a couple yds? Hell even 500yds?
Does it take a belted mag to kill todays smaller modern deer? Nope
Can the 223 with 55gr bullets kill deer reliable? Yup
Have I shot and killed a deer with a 223 and 55gr PSP ammo? Yup
Have a harvested enough deer with a 223 to fill a bus? Yup, as long as it is not a jumbo bus.
It is easier to use something bigger. Yup. Granted if you are shooting 85 feet why not use something smaller?
Is the 308 the end all be all of shooting? Nope. (That was a sad day when I found that out.)
If you want to shoot larger stuff then please do so. If you are shooting close range on paper or just to bang steel or rocks why spend more cash to do that?
Is the 223 with a 55gr bullet the best combo out there? Hell no. Can it shoot well? Yes it can. I shot pulled down M-193 across the course for almost a whole summer. I never had any problems seeing my shots. That is 88shots a week plus 88 rds and 66 for the three 22 shot side matches for the monthly match. My scores with a bone stock AR-15A2 and 55gr ball were better than some who were shooting match rifles and match ammo. That is to include a Tubb2k in 308. Yes that is 506rds a month. Am I the best shot out there? Sadly no. It comes down to the Indian not the arrow.
Today I mainly shoot my 300WM and my 6mmBr.
Firearms and ammo are like golf clubs. You have your short game clubs and your clubs if you are going to long ball it in. The 223 really fits the bill when extreme distance and power are not needed. Really who wants to shoot a 338LM just a couple yds? Hell even 500yds?
Is that the same thing as a "brake"?
One of my pet peeves as well that I usually don't do. Good catch.
I just built a new AR15 to replace the two i sold last year. Still a fun gun to shoot and ring steel with. Getting to old to run from the zombies.
Happens to most who use Tapatalk or other speech recognition on their "smart" devices. I was just having fun.
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