Rifle Scopes Who is still hanging on to MOA

[backyardsniper]

I'm still a firm believer in MOA especially the IPHY reticles from USO. I just bought a 3.2-17 with the MDMOA reticle and MOA/MOA turrets. I just can't make myself like mils. I know that is what all the cool kids are using but I have been doing MOA my whole life I don't see a need to change now. I just wanted to see who was still rockin the MOA.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

MOA is not = IPHY and so on,

good for you that you are comfortable with what you got, still,

it´s just numbers and it´s just not that big of a deal, I have

shot them all, the systems that is and I always end up in the

other corner from yours.

Know your kit and use it well and there is no more to it.

/CHris

 

[shankster..]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

Mils are the work of Communists.

 

[ORD]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

Oh please not this endless debate/discussion/BS again!!

If it works for you (MOA/IPHY/etc.) and you see no need to convert to a mil/mil based optic...rock on!! Not everyone will benefit from running a mil-based optic and even some that would, will never convert for a variety of reasons. It is what it is...end of story.

Variety is the spice of life...its good to have such variety because not everyone likes plain vanilla or chocolate (and there are those oddballs out there that like swirled (i.e. - mixed MIL reticle with MOA adjustments or MOA adjustments with an IPHY reticle).

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I have no problems with mismatch moa-turrets/mil-reticle. Though I will say, having MOA/MOA is a little nicer.

I have 3 scopes with MOA/MOA, all NF now and it's tough using moa/mil again, only at first though, after about a half hour my brain get's retrained using mil/moa and all is well again.

I think if you are just starting out though, you should go mil/mil and think of everything in meters and cms. For me, there is no reason to switch over.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mils are the work of Communists. </div></div>

I have it in good authority that these are the only people buying MOA or IPHY scopes nowadays

 

[O_W]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: backyardsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still a firm believer in MOA especially the IPHY reticles from USO. I just bought a 3.2-17 with the MDMOA reticle and MOA/MOA turrets. I just can't make myself like mils. I know that is what all the cool kids are using but I have been doing MOA my whole life I don't see a need to change now. I just wanted to see who was still rockin the MOA. </div></div>


Slow news day huh...

 

[Graham]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: backyardsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still a firm believer in MOA...</div></div>MOA is a not a belief. I have it on good authority that it exists.

The well-educated rifleman is fluent in both.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I still use MOA. Sure I have a couple Mil Dot scopes but mostly I use MOA.

Understand I'm just an old has been, I'm not going back in the army or any such thing.........I shoot for fun, and hunting of course and MOA suit me well.

As far as competition I've drifted more towards the CMP GSM style Vintage Military Rifle shooting. Kind of hard to apply Mils to those, including the Vintage Snipper Rifle events.

I mean, how do you use mills on a M1917 or 1903 Springfields. Even a Garand.

In hunting, I don't normally do any adjusting of sights. I get a good est of the vital area of the animal I'm hunting, figure out the MPBR and use it so I don't have to adjust or hold over. But I never seen the need to hunt over 300 yards so that's not a problem.

Now, having said all that, if one of my grandkids who is just starting out, and came to me for advice, I'd recommend that he learn mils when using a scope.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I'm an IPHY guy! Easier for me to work with those number simply because I have done it my whole life......

I certainly understand the advantages of MILs but, as stated above, I don't see myself switching unless every scope was being replaced with matching scopes only in MILs...... and I can't afford that.......

Had I started with MILs, I would have stayed with it...... Like most I started with a Mildot ret. and MOA turrets........ The conversion to IPHY just seemed easier.....

 

[kansas]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I could have bought several nice scopes that were moa/moa however the person from whom I was seeking guidance blasted me about mil/mil so...I bought a mil/mil scope. Actually though I can see the math advantage to the mil...I think.

 

[phillip61]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I'm not a scope guy. I have no problem telling everyone here "I don't know dick about scopes. I don't know dick about Mils or Moa. I don't know dick about FFP or SFP". So, now that everyone knows I don't know dick about anything, I just laid down $1700 on a MOA/MOA SFP scope. I did not pay that much for any other reason than I thought that particular scope was "Cool" and I wanted it. It should be here in a few days and I can't wait to sling some lead down range....................I'll figure the MOA stuff out as I go!!

 

[tnichols]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

MOA/MOA still works fine for my old noggin.

 

[gebhardt02]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I definately know the advantage to mil/mil but Im not rich enough to convert all my optics over to that method. So I'm still rockin the mil reticle and MOA adjustments. I know the math and am competent and comfortable in either mil or MOA. My recommendations to several shooting friends just getting started in the long range stuff is to go with mil/mil though.

Geb

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

Seems to me that in scopes the mil ret. came along with moa adjustments before moa/moa specific reticles came along. Sure there were BDC reticles, but that's not the same as moa/moa. Then someone came along and made mil ret./mil adjustments. I then read someone came along with moa ret./moa adjustments.

I think the biggest factor isn't the scope (although same/same is the best), it's the shooter's ability to interpret what he see's through the scope. Everything I look at I think inches, which is so close to MOA there is no calling it, until you adjust of course. Then it's a big deal. If you can think faster in mils then go with that. I think faster in moa.

FWIW, my #1 scope is a US Optics ST-10 with an MOA reticle. I have shot "all hold" from 25 yds. to 1000 yds with it on three different rifles. If I want to reach out farther I can dial. Or if I want to practice dialing I do that out to 1k. I cannot do that with any of my mil-dot scopes.

 

[GhostFace]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I said it before but I think in terms of MOA and I was trained using MOA adjustments so I am sticking with what I know. I just bought a MOA/MOA scope and I am in the process of switching all my scopes over to MOA/MOA. Anyone wanna buy a Loopy M3 (lol)?

 

[DubGunner]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I'm new to long range myself. I bought moa/moa. I can't imagine moa w/ mil reticle. Otherwise as long as your reticle matches your turrets I really cant see what difference there is between moa vs mil other than the scale of measurement. Am I wrong?

 

[Ledzep]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I never was into dessert. Smaller slice of pie for me.

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I would like to switch to Mil/Mil for top tier scope availability, but I already own 3 nightforce scopes in moa/moa and don't want to have both at the same time. Waiting for a premier 5-25 in moa/moa for quite awhile now.....................or possibly the "Beast" if it ever surfaces from La La land.

 

[DubGunner]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skkeeter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to switch to Mil/Mil for top tier scope availability, but I already own 3 nightforce scopes in moa/moa and don't want to have both at the same time. Waiting for a premier 5-25 in moa/moa for quite awhile now.....................or possibly the "Beast" if it ever surfaces from La La land. </div></div>

I'm looking for an moa moa nightforce in case you want to unload any of yours.

 

[predatornut]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

This just crossed my mind today,I have never been in the military so I have no experience with how they operate but watching top sniper and similar shows they always refer to moa. Do their scopes use moa adjustments or mils? I know they use mil reticles, but do the adjustments match? Kind of off topic but not too far.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

as long as the turrets match the reticule, who cares.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

One thing I love about MOA is I can spot for someone and tell them their adjustments with my bare eyes.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if you are just starting out though, you should go mil/mil and think of everything in meters and cms.</div></div>

I use mils all the time and I NEVER feel the need to think in meters and cm's.
Having to think in meters and cm's to use a mil based scope is a myth that perpetuates the confusion that is constantly being displayed on this forum.

It has nothing to do with american vs. european or capitalist vs. communist. MILS and MOA measure angles. Are there inches or cm's in angles?
Also, MOA is actually 1.047 inches at 100 yards. Doh! There's a decimal right in a MOA! Those commies are everywhere!

I'd bet that most of us are way more used to using the decimal system than using our system of measurement anyways, unless you don't use money.
Last I checked we have 10 fingers and 10 toes not 4 or 12 or 36 or whatever. Working with the decimal system should be quite natural for us.

If you prefer MOA or IPHY knock yourself out. But don't do it based on a myth about mils.

 

[roggom]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I use both, Mils for target and steel and moa for hunting. To me they are just as easy. Mils are base-10 (decimal) and moa base-12 (incremental, as it is really based on 360 degrees). Using moa is as easy as telling time on an anolog clock, I normally use half and quarter hours. Time is something we learn in elementary school and is broken down into minutes, so is moa, hmmm.

The reason I choose Mil for target is that mil come ups are normally in base-10, so if the come-up is 4.7, I can dial 4.7 mils. In moa, if the come-up is 16.3 moa, I have to dial 16 or 16 1/4 moa which is not the same thing.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

All my F Class and static range scopes are moa adjustments.

My field stuff is still mostly moa adjustments with mil based reticles but thats because I have used it that way for nearly thirty years. I teach guys to use MIL MIL for field use because its easier

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I think I get it. There's 60 MOA in an hour?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

My mind was introduced to MOA/IPHY over a half century ago. It's just habit.

Mils are interesting, and I think a MilDot reticle can be helpful for windage holdoffs, but nothing in my shooting regimen is actually geared toward the Mil.

I keep my mind open, and if some specific use comes up for Mil Ranging, I'll finish my learning process.

Greg

 

[roggom]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I get it. There's 60 MOA in an hour?

</div></div> I was referring to an analog clock, if your little rifle is the minute hand, then yes there are 60 moa in an hour. Then again of you have a digital watch you may need mils, or wait ..what? .. shit.....

I'm hard core Navy, I had my reticle etched in mili-Fathoms and I have a Caldwell anti aircraft seated OP911 Mk2 turret, I can hit sub-moa all day If I do my part.

Kidding aside, I guess it is easy for me because, like time, I do not think of shooting as linear, but as angles of a circle. Not to get too hung up on the numbers but the graphical representation of the time analogy, but like a clock my turret is divided into 12. To make the the linear connection, on my hunting rifle. 3 moa is approx 300Y, 6moa is 400Y, 9moa is 500y and 12 moa is 600Y (my max limit). I dont know, it works for me.

 

[VKC]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I started with MOA/MOA and was convinced that mil scopes were much more difficult. After shooting for some time, I've since converted to all mil scopes.

 

[Dsparil]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<3 MOA

 

[Hellbender]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

How come everyone that shoots mils still calls group sizes in MOA?

I'm as Mil/Mil as anyone, but I never say "I can hold a .2 mil group size to 700 yards", it's still "I have a 1/2 MOA or better gun" or "I can hit a 1 MOA target at 200 yards kneeling"

What do you guys in "metric" countries (I guess that's everyone else but the USA) say?

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I think that everybody experienced enough has some knowledge and use of MOA in nearly all metric countries... the mil reticle + MOA clicks was a standard for many years, just in the past 5-8 years or so every new scope came in mil/mil (if the buyer was smart enough, and the budget allowed it).

So the "MOA group" is still alive and well. But so is "3 cm at 100 m", or "0.3 mils".

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I know a lot of you guys talk about the angular connection first, I have to make the linear connection first. In other words, the first thing I think about is the size of the target. It wouldn't hurt to go back with the Mil-dot master and do like we did when I was a young Ranger and just flip flash cards out on a given vehicle/equipment and start calling out the five most obvious sizing features of the vehicle/equipment. It doesn't do any good to use IPHY or MOA if you can't do that with those systems either.

 

[346ci]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

At my first LR shoot, when my shots were called in Mils, I was doing a lot of "huh" and "what". Doing that math quick using MOA turrets may seem easy to the well experienced but not so much for other folks. Not having good dope sucks too.

I just got a NXS with mil/mil-MLR though so let the new games begin, LOL. I beleive I will keep the MOA style glass on my hunting rigs though...

 

[shankster..]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<span style="font-weight: bold">Military dots suck compared to MOA.</span>

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Military dots suck compared to MOA.</span></div></div>

So do the women you prefer compared to the rest of us.... But, it's what you like isn't it?

 

[K2Ballistics]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

The Founding Fathers used MOA and so do I.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K2Ballistics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Founding Fathers used MOA and so do I.</div></div>

They also wrote with feathers, rode horses everywhere, bathed and showered infrequently and wiped their asses with leaves and rags.

 

[K2Ballistics]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K2Ballistics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Founding Fathers used MOA and so do I.</div></div>

They also wrote with feathers, rode horses everywhere, bathed and showered infrequently and wiped their asses with leaves and rags.

</div></div>

I'm not seeing the problem here!

 

[Rob01]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

Lol

 

[phillip61]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

My scope does both. @ 18X it's 1moa per space, @ 5X it's 1 mil per space.

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

All my scopes are MOA/MOA but that's just personal pref.

 

[1time]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I went with MOA because the first higher end scope I purchased only offered the reticle I wanted in MOA. I feel like I could pick up a Mil/Mil scope and be just as effective. The only real preference I have is hash marks over dots.

 

[dbateman]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

Well I learnt on MOA and now have pretty much changed over to MIL

They both work.

 

[steve123]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if you are just starting out though, you should go mil/mil and think of everything in meters and cms.</div></div>

I use mils all the time and I NEVER feel the need to think in meters and cm's.
Having to think in meters and cm's to use a mil based scope is a myth that perpetuates the confusion that is constantly being displayed on this forum.

It has nothing to do with american vs. european or capitalist vs. communist. MILS and MOA measure angles. Are there inches or cm's in angles?
Also, MOA is actually 1.047 inches at 100 yards. Doh! There's a decimal right in a MOA! Those commies are everywhere!

I'd bet that most of us are way more used to using the decimal system than using our system of measurement anyways, unless you don't use money.
Last I checked we have 10 fingers and 10 toes not 4 or 12 or 36 or whatever. Working with the decimal system should be quite natural for us.

If you prefer MOA or IPHY knock yourself out. But don't do it based on a myth about mils. </div></div>

Well put! I like your way of thinking.

 

[jonthomps]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

Darrell Holland, for one! Called him the other day to ask him some questions about his ART reticle. I inquired about a mil/mil set up and was met with, "I'm not trying to be a jerk, but what wrong with MOA turrets?" I casually replied, "I just think mils are easier. I like working with 10th's." He then stated that MOA was easier and proceeded to rattle off what sounded like a calculus equation and said, "What could be easier than that?"

I politely thanked him for his time and ended the call.

 

[phillip61]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I don't know dick about scopes, but a moa is 1.047". .04" is less than 1/16th. So if you add 1/16 per 100 yds at 800yds it would be 1/2". So does it really matter that a person might just say an moa equals 1". It just seems way easier to look at it that way. can a person really hold a 1/16 of an inch anyway? My scope is moa/moa. I'm a hog hunter. I rarely take a shot longer than 400 yds, I think i can live without that .25". So looking at it that way, I don't see how it could be much easier?

 

[RobertB]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I guess I look at these measurements differently than most here. I don't think in 1/8-1/4-1/2 or in tenths. I am a professional land surveyor and use MOA and mils. I am taking much finer measurements for that than I am for shooting. When you say driving nails in shooting well we are actually doing just that. In elevation and poistional points. And we have to loop back into the same points with very small amounts of error. Both systems are just as accurate when taking angular measurements. And both measure angles. I use MOA only but just ordered a Super Sniper with mil/mil to have a scope set up this way in order to check it out and try to master it as well. Both are measurements from a base line and both come all the way back around to start again so one is not better than the other. A 1000yd benchrest shooter would probably want 1/8th MOA instead of .1 mil just because of finer adjustments. If they offered 1/20th mil he might would take it. But as far as shooting rifles one system wouldn't have drawbacks from the other if it was understood.

 

[phillip61]

Re: Who is still hanging on to MOA

I think that made since. But you did say one thing I understood. My scope has .25moa adjustments per click. if an moa is 1.047" I can't compensate for the .04" anyway. at least not till I get to 400 yards then I can add 1 click. but at 200 yards I just as well say thats 1moa (4 clicks) above zero. Simple.