Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

[JL]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

I´d say its hammer forging.
I think Germans used it first (in bigger scale) with MG34 MG:s, later MG42:s. Barrels lasted ridiculous amount of shots- though MG is different thing than magnum cal bolt action with tight boolets.

Amount of energy, or heat shock, is pretty much same no matter which bullet you use. Heat causes erosion, starting from throat area.

About 1MOA- I only know what I have heard from Finnish army guys:
Accuracy limit for TRG42:s is one moa.
Most rifles will be re-barreled around 5000 shots behind. Give or take something, but in practice its +4000 anyway. They shoot LockBase, so do I.

I re-barreled mine around 4000, and it wasn't <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> bad yet looked with endoscope. Lots of cracks and so forth but not terrible condition.

Later´s link answers pretty much rest of the q:s.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coal Dragger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just think of it as added versatility. Also the 300gr bullet is a bit less susceptible to wind, which in my experience is more important than shooting flat. If I have a good ballistics chart, and some range time to verify it I am not all that concerned with a few MOA or MIL's difference in drop. On the other hand reading the wind is a pain for me, and a bullet that reduces the effects of my error on making wind calls is pretty damn useful. </div></div>

Could You kindly calculate drop/wind charts for 300 and 250gr Scenars with typical TRG MV:s and copy it in this thread?
Would be interesting to compare. 250gr Scenars typically live barrel around 3000fps with reasonable loads.
Not sure about 300grs MV:s- perhaps 2750fps would be "fair" comparsion?

</div></div>

JL, I tried to get the ballistics chart to cooperate with me but it wouldn't do it.

A 250gr Secenar (B.C. .675) at 3000fps muzzle velocity zeroed at 300yds will drop 210 inches below line of zero at 1000yds, and drift 53.4 inches in a 10mph crosswind (full value).

In looking up listed velocities for the 300gr bullet from a .338 Lapua the only load I could find was the Black Hills 300gr Matchking listed at 2800fps from a 26" barrel. The TRG barrel is a bit longer but I'll go with 2800fps assuming the 300gr Scenar can reach the same speed as a 300gr MK. The 300gr Scenar is listed as having a B.C. of .785 so zeroed at 300yds at 2800fps MV we are looking at 227.5 inches of drop, and 48.9 inches of drift in the same cross wind.

At 1500yds the 250gr bullet will drift 139 inches, and the 300gr bullet will drift 125 given equal 10mph wind conditions. Interestingly the 250gr bullet is still dropping less at that range.

 

[JL]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

According to Vihtavuori reloading guide here:
http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Relodata/Rifle/.338LapuaMagnum.jpg

With same 27.5" barrel, primer, case, pressure piezo and presumably same max pressures 300gr Scenar MV is 2745, 250gr Scenar 2989fps. 250gr LockBase, 3005fps.
In all cases, VV new N570 powder gives fastest MV:s.

Peoples seem to keep forgetting that projectile weight has nothing to do with wind -or drop calculations.
Most ballistic programs use only BC -values -bullet weight is only shown as additional info. Programs doesent use it in calculations AT ALL.

Logical conclusion must then be that weight itself doesent bring happiness.
Its the MV/BC ratio that counts- as you calculated already.
Stll, usually heavyer bullets has higher BC, but since MV is in same formula, weight its only part of the story.
_____________________________________________________________

Heres Eskimo charts. BC:s for both bullets are valid only at high speeds, but gives very good idea since both are
calculated "same way wrong". Inaccurate, yes, but should be pretty fair comparsion.

250 gr

300gr

Windage@10mph, full value:
difference up to 1100yds, one click (0,1mrads or "mils")
From 1100 to 1500, two clicks. 300gr better.

Drop:
at 1000yds, 250gr POI 0.9mrad higher.
at 1500yds, 250gr would be 1.3mrads higher.
___________________________________________________

As said, calculations arent accurate. But they give pretty good idea about MV/BC ratio in practice.
I´ll re-calculate them with doppler data based values when I can.


Anyway, heres Lapua´s chart from their page. Also if somebody has QT installed in computer, multiple BC:s are in visible.
Just noticed that I haven't installed mine in my new comp.

New chart from Lapua page.
Wind and trajectory charts up to 1300yds.
300gr boolet is shooted 1" shorter barrel. Bit slower MV than previous G1 sample calculation had with 27,5".

Link to chart:
http://www.lapua.com/uploads/media/338LapuaMagnum2009.pdf



As rule of thumb, IMO 250gr would work relatively even better from shorter barrel (than 27,5"), and vice versa. In other hand, 300gr BC is relatively better in slower velocitys- G1 doesent take this into account. But I would imagine that Lapua´s chart does. Still no QT to check it out by myself.


So, just to keep this thread alive, (not too seriously!) few questions to think about:

- Is 300gr really way better than 250gr in long ranges?
- According to Lapua chart, which resist wind better with given MV:s?
- Why of all bullet weights in the world, and after all testing, Lapua decided to go 250grainer in new long range cartridge?
- And finally, why in earth Sako was so silly that they choose 1:12 twist -optimal for 250gr- for their long range rifle, TRG? Were they <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> stupid after all?

 

[flims]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

you should also compare terminal energy at those distances you speak of.
the lock base 250gn/2970ft/s at 1500yds has 684ft/lbs left.

the 300grain load at 2800ft/s has 1171 ft/lbs left. almost twice energy left. this in theory should result in more impact signature on targets such as rocks.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flims</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you should also compare terminal energy at those distances you speak of.
the lock base 250gn/2970ft/s at 1500yds has 684ft/lbs left.

the 300grain load at 2800ft/s has 1171 ft/lbs left. almost twice energy left. this in theory should result in more impact signature on targets such as rocks. </div></div>


It would certainly hit a lot harder and penetrate better at that distance. While both will make a steel plate ring, or make a hole in a paper target one of them will be bringing twice as much energy to a real target.

Advantage 300gr. Advantage 1:10 or faster twist.

 

[JL]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

True- energy is energy, and usually more is better.

But what would those terminal energy differences mean in practice?
Meaning, if target is armored vehicle, non-armored vehicle or, say, prairie dog?
What if "soft target" is without vests- or cowardly uses them? does it matter? And what if vests are with trauma plates?


According to my personal experiences, 30cal 200gr Lapua D166 FMJBT bullet easily penetrates thru 18 layers of kevlar- at subsonic speed.
Piece of vest in test was from level 2A rated. Bullet ended up 10" inside wet sand behind vest -And thats with modest 489ft-lbs energy. Sharp nose really makes a difference.

Vest with trauma plates would have stopped it- but it would have stopped both 250gr and 300gr bullets as well- easily.
Typical 9mm Luger bullet has around 1000-1100 muzzle energy- and it able to penetrate -easily- thru normal car doors shooted from 20yds distance- despite bigger diameter and round nose.


So, to make some constructive conversation:

In real life situations, what difference additional 50gr will exactly make?

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">True- energy is energy, and usually more is better.

But what would those terminal energy differences mean in practice?
Meaning, if target is armored vehicle, non-armored vehicle or, say, prairie dog?
What if "soft target" is without vests- or cowardly uses them? does it matter? And what if vests are with trauma plates?


According to my personal experiences, 30cal 200gr Lapua D166 FMJBT bullet easily penetrates thru 18 layers of kevlar- at subsonic speed.
Piece of vest in test was from level 2A rated. Bullet ended up 10" inside wet sand behind vest -And thats with modest 489ft-lbs energy. Sharp nose really makes a difference.

Vest with trauma plates would have stopped it- but it would have stopped both 250gr and 300gr bullets as well- easily.
Typical 9mm Luger bullet has around 1000-1100 muzzle energy- and it able to penetrate -easily- thru normal car doors shooted from 20yds distance- despite bigger diameter and round nose.


So, to make some constructive conversation:

In real life situations, what difference additional 50gr will exactly make?


</div></div>

In real life 50gr can make a hell of a difference in effect on the target. Again you are confusing poking holes in things with disabling or killing them quickly.

During my tour in Iraq as a USMC infantryman I would love to have had a weapon pushing a bullet 50gr heavier than the 62gr bullet I was issued. Granted the 62gr bullet would easily penetrate all the way through a bad guy, and could defeat auto glass too. However the effect on target was not really all that great. I would have much rather had a 112gr bullet down 150-200fps in velocity than the 62gr bullet I had to use.

Look at the barrel twist argument this way, if you had two TRG 42's in the gun rack and both were the same price, had the same equipment with them, and were even the same color/finish, but one had a 1:10 twist barrel the other a 1:12; which one would you take home?

I would take the 1:10 every day and twice on Sunday. The rifle could still run a 250gr bullet with no problems (and probably quite accurately) but could also run a 300gr bullet if you wanted to.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

CoalDragger, I think in this case your example is not particularly valid. Going from a 62 grain bullet to a 112 is almost a 100% increase in weight. I doubt anyone would argue for choosing a 250gr compared to a 500gr 200 fps slower. Here we are talking about 10% differance, or a 62 vs a 68.

Given that neither bullet will expand at the terminal velocity of 1200 fps or so we are talking about, all they will do is 'poke a hole'. If penetration is deep enough 15-18 inches, both will produce alomst identical wounds. The 300 has the advantage only in penetration.

All that said, my .338 is 1 in 9.4, the option to shoot the 300 is there, I've just not found a really good reason to do it. If I need penetration, I use AP

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

I realize I was talking about nearly doubling the projectile weight in my example, but the question was asked if 50grs makes a difference. It happens to nearly double the energy on target at that distance is what it does in the case of the .338.

Anyhow, what would you choose for a barrel twist, 1:12 or 1:10 if those were your choices?

I think I know the answer given that you are running a 1:9.4.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Good Evening,

Seems some replies to this thread really do not understand and/or realize who it is they may be replying to. FWIW I can damn near assure you that JL has more trigger time on 338LM than anyone else posting in this thread being he is Finland Military Sniper Instructor. His comments on the 250gr bullet and what it can do is from direct experience. One must realize that his countries military uses stock TRG42 with "non"10 twist barrels and choose to utilize them lil 250gr bullets not because of cost or personal opinions but because of shitloads of test ranging from accuracy, penetration, etc. Also realize that JL and his instructor friend MSA have taken a stock TRG42 with the 250gr bullets out to 2000m so when he says the 300gr offers nothing over the 250gr I would tend to believe him lol.

Do you not think JL has pretty much seen and/or been part of every kind of test you can think of when it comes to sniping with a 338LM?

And for just a little more operational and educational insight, JLs' instuctor partner is the 2008 FinnSniper Comp Champion formerly known as the Lapua Sniper Comp. JL also competes in the Finland National Sniper Comp. The FinnSniper Comp has teams from all over the world compete and is not a shooting range style comp. Does anyone know what the highest place a Team from the USA has ever placed btw?

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

I was unable to find any info on the above listed competition, but I would guess than no US teams have made it into the top. Not even sure if any US teams have competed, and if they have what equipment they have used.

Not to be an ass but most US military snipers have been pretty focused on actually killing bad guys in active war zones instead of playing games. The only info on a sniper competition I could find was this: http://www.armytimes.com/offduty/sports/at.sniper.11.2.06/

Clearly not the same competition, but the US teams did well. Don't get me wrong I am sure JL knows what he is talking about, and I don't doubt his skill. For that matter I would love to have a TRG in 1:12 or 1:10. I just see the ability to utilize heavier bullets as an advantage, doesn't mean you have to use them just that you can.

Maybe JL can weigh in on how well 250's shoot through a faster twist barrel vs the 1:12. What the advantages of the 1:12 are over the 1:10 or 1:9.4 etc.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

The data above shows 917 to 1151, hardly twice the energy. Now, if you could push the 300 at 3000 fps, you'd probably have a winner, but you can't do that in the LM case with current powder technology.

Actually, the Lapua chart makes me want to shoot the API round, presuming there's no accuracy loss. I know the RUAG AP is the most accurate factory ammo I've tried. I've never had any of the Lapua AP or API.

Crunching numbers leads be to believe the ideal bullet weight to be about 270, which should still make 2950 fps and increase the BC a bit. I'd like to try the Wildcat 270, but they never seem to respond.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Have you tried the Bore Tech 245gr? They are hideously expensive but given a claimed BC of .869 if they could be pushed at or slightly above 3000fps that could be one wind cheating velocity retaining SOB.

I wonder if Berger is working on anything for the .338? I love their .308 bullets as my SSG shoots the 168gr VLD really well (at least it does now that I have found the right seating depth).

 

[cybersniper]

As I could not find the best one ...I built it

FOR ME and I repeat FOR ME
the best 338Lm is the one i have built, for a multitude of reasons.
many 338Lm rifles work fine some are even awesome machines BUT none fully covered all my needs so I went ahead and built mine from scratch using the best parts and builders I could find: Kevin Wyatt of Wyatt Outdoors and Scott McRee. They made my ideas into reality.
Check it here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1036948#Post1036948

By the way i have tested most 338Lm rifles (all of the europeans and some of the US), have owned some and have helped develop some others.

And by the way, if you want to talk about capable snipers with 338LM, talk to my Finnish Sniper Friends....they know more about it, because they have been using for the last decades while in the US very few rifles where even chambered in it.

But that does not preclude that last year a US team placed second in the competition. My respect for them and my congratulations (onca again) they shot very well. Actually much better than me.

Eduardo

 

[cybersniper]

They actually placed second...

Coal Dragger:
If you want a country with expertise in the 338LM go to Finland... but the US team ( an Irish/Us team actually) placed second last year.
They shot very good and deserved it. I shot less good and placed 9th only.
My congratulations to them
Eduardo
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coal Dragger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was unable to find any info on the above listed competition, but I would guess than no US teams have made it into the top. Not even sure if any US teams have competed, and if they have what equipment they have used.

Not to be an ass but most US military snipers have been pretty focused on actually killing bad guys in active war zones instead of playing games. The only info on a sniper competition I could find was this: http://www.armytimes.com/offduty/sports/at.sniper.11.2.06/

Clearly not the same competition, but the US teams did well. Don't get me wrong I am sure JL knows what he is talking about, and I don't doubt his skill. For that matter I would love to have a TRG in 1:12 or 1:10. I just see the ability to utilize heavier bullets as an advantage, doesn't mean you have to use them just that you can.

Maybe JL can weigh in on how well 250's shoot through a faster twist barrel vs the 1:12. What the advantages of the 1:12 are over the 1:10 or 1:9.4 etc. </div></div>

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: As I could not find the best one ...I built it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cybersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FOR ME and I repeat FOR ME
the best 338Lm is the one i have built, for a multitude of reasons.
many 338Lm rifles work fine some are even awesome machines BUT none fully covered all my needs so I went ahead and built mine from scratch using the best parts and builders I could find: Kevin Wyatt of Wyatt Outdoors and Scott McRee. They made my ideas into reality.
Check it here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1036948#Post1036948

By the way i have tested most 338Lm rifles (all of the europeans and some of the US), have owned some and have helped develop some others.

And by the way, if you want to talk about capable snipers with 338LM, talk to my Finnish Sniper Friends....they know more about it, because they have been using for the last decades while in the US very few rifles where even chambered in it.

But that does not preclude that last year a US team placed second in the competition. My respect for them and my congratulations (onca again) they shot very well. Actually much better than me.

Eduardo </div></div>

That is a very nice rifle you have there. I am jealous.

 

[JL]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coal Dragger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look at the barrel twist argument this way, if you had two TRG 42's in the gun rack and both were the same price, had the same equipment with them, and were even the same color/finish, but one had a 1:10 twist barrel the other a 1:12; which one would you take home?

I would take the 1:10 every day and twice on Sunday. The rifle could still run a 250gr bullet with no problems (and probably quite accurately) but could also run a 300gr bullet if you wanted to. </div></div>

CD, want to make myself perfectly clear- English is my third language and sometimes I got difficulties to express myself clearly:
There is nothing wrong with 1:10 twist- Its good to have options as you said.
What I'm trying to do is to challenge people to really think about it by themselves- and use ballistic calculators since they are easily available.

Common opinion seem to be, and Im not talking about you, that since TRG is 1:12 its therefore POS and twist makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
My opinion is that 300-250 comparison isn't that simple- both have their advantages. And peoples (not meaning you again) who find 300gr to be <span style="font-style: italic">only</span> right choice for 338LM are either lying or don't exactly know what they´re talking about.

Talking about projectile energy, happened here few years back:
Two brothers were hunting. Other one stayed in camp, other one went for birds.
Later, he spotted one sitting on branch, 50 or so yds away.
He aimed, and took a shot. Rifle Sako 308, ammunition factory load Lapua 8gram/123grain Trainer.
He hit bird. After penetration, bullet flew +4kilometers or +2.5miles. Hitted hes bro, sitting at campfire. Brother was killed because of massive internal bleeding. POI was under armpit.
May sound like urban legend, but its not. It was in national news, and police made full investigations. Not too much energy but still enough killing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seems some replies to this thread really do not understand and/or realize who it is they may be replying to...clip...The FinnSniper Comp has teams from all over the world compete and is not a shooting range style comp. Does anyone know what the highest place a Team from the USA has ever placed btw? </div></div>

Later -thanks but You make me sound too good.
To be exact, I'm not in army payroll, but I do instruct sniping (among few other things) to army reserve and civil guard shooters. We do it with Finnish Defense force gear, ammo and rifles. And usually with army regular instructors.
And about shooting TRG -unfortunately I haven't shot nearly as much as I wanted with TRG in last two years. Getting rusty...projects, training etc simply takes too much time.
I wish I was 338Lapua ballistic expert -but I dont have to be- I´ll just call to MSa, lol!

About our competition:
FinnSniper Comp is annual international comp, organized by Ostrobothnia Sniper association.
Last year, team Northern Ireland / USA took second place.
American guy was ex-army sniper, and OIF vet. Irish was ex-Royal Marine sniper.

P.S.
Eduardo, glad to see You too here.
Your rig is finally ready? Looks nice!

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Thanks for the clarification JL. Out of curiosity do 250gr bullets display more accuracy out of the 1:12 twist barrels vs. the 1:10/1:9.4 etc?

I ask because I read somewhere that the best accuracy is usually achieved when a bullet is spun or stabilized just enough to be stable instead of over spun. Could be a load of crap, but then again my Steyr SSG 69 PII has a 1:10 twist barrel and really seems to prefer 168-175gr bullets over any 155gr bullets that I have tried.

 

[flims]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Eduado, since you had the opportunity to try the B&T APR 338, what do you think of the rifle in terms of accuracy, handling, all round performance etc when compared to the other options available in Europe?

 

[CoryT]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

I have tried the BoreTech with no success, I can't get a group under 1.5 MOA at 100.

I've noticed no differance in accuracy between the 1 in 12 and a 1 in 9.4 with the 250, so far as I can tell they are identical. You can't really 'overstabilize' a bullet, it's either stable or it's not. Now, you can overspin one to the degree that it flies apart, too much stress on the jacket to hold together.

A twist of 1:10 or less is more flexible, you have more bullet choices, which is a good thing. Sako went to 1:10 because of demand. The 1:12 will work just fine, just use the 250's and be happy. There's nothing a 300gr .338 LM will do that a 250 can't, at least so far as I can tell.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Too bad the Bore Techs didn't work out for you. That could have been a neat projectile to play with.

 

[MSa]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Hi Guys,

Nice fight you've got here. Below some FACTs I've shot myself with Factory standard TRG42 .338LM in 1/12 twist

- 905m/s 250gr Scenar behaves well and accurately
- 300gr Scenar worked also well 800-850m/s velocities. I've not yet tested further than 300m, but holes are nice and round with 0.6-0.8MOA accuracy.

==> OBSERVATION 1: 300gr workes in my TRG42 with 1/12twist. Some ballisticians claim that if the bullet is stable in 300m then it remains stable the rest of the path. At least supersonic part of it.

==> OBSERVATION 2: 300gr Scenar kicks a lot more than 250gr at max loads.

Max velocities (without exceeding 4200bar) I can get with N570
- 250gr Scenar 905m/s
- 300gr Scenar 850m/s


So now down to exterior ballistics side:

Trajectories calculated with Quick Target Unlimited and radar data from Lapua for both bullets.
- 250gr Scenar 905m/s
- 300gr Scenar 850m/s
- std pressure and temp 1013mbar and 15C

==> 250gr shoots flatter up till 1500m. After then 300gr is flatter shooter.
- at 850m 250gr needs about 50cm less elevation

==> 300gr has advantage on total wind deflection.
For example with 90degree 3m/s wind at 1500m
- 250gr deflection 321cm
- 300gr deflection 271cm
==> 50cm difference in total deflection, but this is not the story. the story with wind is how accurately you estimate it right and how much wind estimating error your better bc bullet enables you.

Your target shoulder with is 50cm.
=> for 250gr Scenar you need to estimate your wind to be in 2.78-3.21m/s area to hit this 50cm area. (2.79m/s 297cm - 3.21m/s 346cm)
=> for 300gr Scenar you need to estimate your wind to be in 2.78-3.21m/s area to hit this 50cm area. (2.74m/s 246cm - 3.26m/s 296cm)

==> So 300gr enables the shooter 2 x 0.05m/s = 0.1m/s bigger window for estimating the wind. Not a big deal IMHO.



Energy. Yes 300gr carries has more energy through out the range.

Time of flight. 250gr has a slight advantage up to 1300meters. Not a big deal anyhow. Flight time to 2000m
250gr 4,47s
300gr 4,30s

As a my personal conclusion I'd say:

- I see no other reason going for 300gr bullets, in general, exept the slightly bigger energy it carries. And 0.1m/s bigger error window for wind estimate.

- 300gr is a fine bullet, shoots accurately I'm sure, but it also kicks more than 250gr.

- 250gr Scenar I've found to perform extremely accurately and even predictably up to 1800m with 1/12inch barrel.

- Also initial tests show that if I want to shoot 300gr bullets my TRG42 will eat those too with 1/12 barrel. This I found in practice and I know it is against the collective wisdom of internet, but that is the way it is in my rifle case.


MSa

 

[Coal Dragger]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Thanks for the input, very informative.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Thanks A LOT to JL and MSA

May I ask at what temperature was the 300 scenar tested in the factory 1-12"? All TRG 42s should behave pretty much the same because the hammer forged process produces nearly identical barrels, no variation of twist from one to another.

MSA, do you have the spin drift values for the 250 and 300 scenars from 800 m to 1800 m? Does this value changes with the new 1-10" barrels, or very little? Is this data from radar tests?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Raydog and I have shot the 300 SMK's in his TRG (1:12) and my AI (1:11) with success (5000'+ altitude).

However, we shoot the 250 Scenars usually, because they are cheaper, we have a ton of them, less recoil, kind of a marginal difference at long range, and the 250's are a little more accurate at short range for us.

 

[MSa]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

TiroFijo: I shot 300gr Scenar tests at around -5C temperature and 1000mbrad pressure and about 800-850m/s velocities. Need to continue tests, but it seems that 300gr stabilizes from 1/12 barrel. Sorry, do not have radar tested spind drift data.

Zak, thanks for confirming too that 300gr bullets work also forsomeone else at 1/12 barrel.

MSa

 

[JL]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coal Dragger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Out of curiosity do 250gr bullets display more accuracy out of the 1:12 twist barrels vs. the 1:10/1:9.4 etc?

I ask because I read somewhere that the best accuracy is usually achieved when a bullet is spun or stabilized just enough to be stable instead of over spun. Could be a load of crap, but then again my Steyr SSG 69 PII has a 1:10 twist barrel and really seems to prefer 168-175gr bullets over any 155gr bullets that I have tried. </div></div>
Same here, dont know.
Still, it seems to be true. BR shooters have used that principle as an rule of thumb for ages already: bullet tends to be most accurate if spin is just enough for stabilization. I guess it has something to do with precession/nutation frequency vs bullet dimensions vs velocity vs spin RPM vs God knows what.
Mild over-stabilization doesent seem to harm any way LR or ELR shooting, but in theory its still not good thing to have.
In practice, I guess its only one factor among many other things- and usually "other things" cause bigger problems- such as accuracy, MV dispersion for various reasons, wind changes in bullets path etc.
Even so, if projectile is "too over-stable" (LOL, sorry, my english!) - bullet nose doesent follow trajectorys tangent anymore and starts to "glide"- or fly "nose up" like this. What happens in intermediate phase -between optimally stabilized and overstabilized- I dont really have a clue.
Few years back, I ended up to some German company´s pages. They had simulation programs for ideal twist. Idea was that they can calculate optimal twist for various bullet types, twist that offers minimum prec./nut. at desired velocity range- so I guess it can be calculated, in theory atleast.



Good info related to bullet stability is f.e. in Mr Nennstiel´s page For example, interesting analysis about 7.62x51 NATO bullet flight- measured with long-range doppler radar.Bullet starts to loose its stability very far, instability cause oscillating behavior in velocity.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm actually perfectly happy with the 250 Scenar. If you run the numbers using Metro Standard and a 10 MPH 90 degree wind, at 1500 yards there is about .4 MOA differance in the wind call. That amounts to about .09 mil. 1 mph moves the 250 1 MOA and the 300 .9 MOA. To me, that's not so much of an advantage.

Running the BoreTech 245's at 3100, I can reduce the wind drift to.6 MOA for 1 MPH. 10 MPH is 6.3 MOA, or 1.84 Mil, compared to a 300 at 2700 with 9.3 MOA, 2.7 Mil. Now, .9 Mil differance is something that's worth the effort. </div></div>
Cory, you tried Boretechs with 1:12 TRG42? Stable, but accuracy was modest 1.7MOA?
Could you share some details with load, ranges, MV:s etc? Thanks.
Are you familiar with GS .338 solid, BC 1.122@2850fps ? Not sure if its available in US tho. Related to issue above, GS informs about stability factors in their specs.




Some "translation" help, apparently MSa wrote in a hurry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Max velocities (without exceeding 4200bar) I can get with N570
- 250gr Scenar 905m/s
- 300gr Scenar 850m/s</div></div>

905m/s = 2969fps
850m/s = 2788fps
Temp 59F, 1013mbar is 29.9 hg/inch (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
==> 250gr shoots flatter up till 1500m. After then 300gr is flatter shooter.
- at 850m 250gr needs about 50cm less elevation</div></div>

250gr shoots flatter up to 1640yds.
At 930yds, 250gr Scenar needs 19.7" less elevation than 300gr Scenar.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
==> 300gr has advantage on total wind deflection.
For example with 90degree 3m/s wind at 1500m
==> 50cm difference in total deflection, but this is not the story. the story with wind is how accurately you estimate it right and how much wind estimating error your better bc bullet enables you.

Your target shoulder with is 50cm.
=> for 250gr Scenar you need to estimate your wind to be in 2.78-3.21m/s area to hit this 50cm area. (2.79m/s 297cm - 3.21m/s 346cm)
=> for 300gr Scenar you need to estimate your wind to be in 2.78-3.21m/s area to hit this 50cm area. (2.74m/s 246cm - 3.26m/s 296cm)
MSa </div></div>

With true TRG42 MV:s mentioned, 300gr wind correction advance:
Range 1500meters = 1640yds, target widht 50cm = 19.7", 300gr advance in wind estimation error is 0.1m/s = 0.2mph.
Wind used in calculation, 3m/s = 6.7mph, full value. Total difference in drift 321cm vs 271cm = 126" vs 106".

Flight time to 2000meters = 2 187yds, 250gr = 4.47sec, 300gr = 4.3sec.


As mentioned, calculations made with Quick Target Unlimited, values are based on bullet radar true trajectorys.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

I've run the BoreTech's with the reccomended 90gr of Retumbo from 3 rifles, 1:9.4, 1:9.5 and 1:10 twists. Changed seating depth from mag length (3.635") to 3.800". Runout at bullet tip < .002". No group of 5 shots went into less than 1.7" at 100 yards. The Web site suggests 1:10 with 'factory standard' rifling.

Each of these rifles is consistently under .5 MOA at 100 yards with RUAG and Lapua factory ammo of all types. I've looked at the GS bullets, but they all need a very fast twist, 1:8 or more.

 

[Dustin C]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

My Sako trg has been awsome even in break in but for some reason their resale must be bad I cant give it away on 24hour campfire,I cant complain it has has only had 75 rounds down the pipe and always shoots .2's or 3's not really broke in I dont think you cant ask better from a factory gun .thanks Dustin

 

[JL]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've run the BoreTech's with the reccomended 90gr of Retumbo from 3 rifles, 1:9.4, 1:9.5 and 1:10 twists. Changed seating depth from mag length (3.635") to 3.800". Runout at bullet tip < .002". No group of 5 shots went into less than 1.7" at 100 yards. The Web site suggests 1:10 with 'factory standard' rifling.

Each of these rifles is consistently under .5 MOA at 100 yards with RUAG and Lapua factory ammo of all types. I've looked at the GS bullets, but they all need a very fast twist, 1:8 or more. </div></div>

Interesting. Some say that solids tend to be on/off type bullets: either they shoot very well -or not at all.
Can you give your SWAG -what was reason for inaccuracy? Did you measure SD/ES for loads you tested?
How did groups look like? single flyers or something else?
TIA

 

[jkkfam89]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darkphage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have any opinions on who makes the most accurate, reliable, out of the box 338 LM?

I am interested primarily in bigger companies, but would like to hear about any great smaller outfits as well. I believe custom shops can probably make the best rifles overall, but at this stage I am still a little more comfortable with bigger established companies.

I am considering purchasing a 338 LM, and want input. Lets assume price isn't part of the decision. Only precision, and reliability.

Thanks,

Darkphage


</div></div>
I would have to say: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1054776#Post1054776

 

[CoryT]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

The groups, if you can call them that, looked like a shotgun pattern. If I had to guess, I'd say the thin driving bands did not work well on the rifling pattern of any of the guns I tested. The holes were all circular, so I would not say they were unstable. I did not chrono any of the tests, it would take a pretty extreme velocity shift to move the bullet mmore than an inch at 100. Charges were all hand weighed on a lab balance to .02 grains.

I was going to try some of the Xtreme Machining bullets they us in the .338 Xtreme, but the drive band is all the way at the base if the bullet. I can't seat it with any of the band in the neck. At 4" OAL, the ogive hits the rifling and it won't chamber, shorter and the neck won't hold the bullet as the drive band goes past the case neck.

Maybe Wildcat Bullets will finally get back in buisness, their 275 RBBT always looked promissing.

 

[steve123]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Cory,

Have you tried the Lehigh's?

Steve

 

[CoryT]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

No, but so far as I can tell the Lehigh's and the BoreTech's are identical.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

CoryT

Have you talked to George at Rocky Mountain Bullets about his 375s? His 375 pills look somew=hat similar to those that used to be offered by Wildcat. He is a member here - Bulletsmith.

JeffVN

 

[DUB DEE]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Love My TRG 42, I was fortunate enough to get a response from JL and MSA in regards to a zeiss scope i got from Germany that was made specifically for my 338, and for the Finnish Defense Force. Having no literature on this scope these two helped me out a lot, actually better than Zeiss could help me out anyday. Once i got to the point of reloading (because 338LM are so expensive) they were there again to guide me. I wanted to build a load as close to what the Finns use as possible, because these guys know 338LM, probly better than anyone in the world. And if these guys arent the best than they are probly friends with the guy that is..

So you should definately take into consideration what there saying, and i do love to read about stuff outside of the box when it comes to this topic, it inspires new thoughts and can refine existing methods. As long as its backed by some facts.

By the way JL for English as a third language you do pretty good, hope all is well..... be sending you some range reports by december when it cools down. Thinking of switching from the VV N560 w/ 250gr Lockbases @ ~2950 MV to the VV 150 or 160, i will tell you how i like it.... how many grains of the 160 are you using ? @ what MV?

 

[OutRider]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

This thread has been quite a find, but I have not seen any reference to any autoloaders.

I am looking for the "best" .338 Lapua for a friend, as he has limited experience and even more limited free time to research this issue.

Unfortunatly, he is only interested in an autolader, and was leaning twords an AR 10 format rifle in one of the short magnum rounds, untill we realized that no one loads quality ammo for any of the short magnums.

I am quite surprised at the prices of some of the bolt action guns. What is it that makes the Windjammer so costly? Is it more accurate than something like the AI or TRG rifles? What makes it so much "better" that it can command such a price?


The two auto loading .338 Lapua rifles currently under consideration are the RND 2000 from RND Edge and the VR1 from Vigilance. I would consider the Cobb rifle but cannot find any info on a .338 Lapua version of it. I cannot find any other autoladers in .338 Lapua. Maybe I should start another thread.

This one is going into my book marks, though. It seems to have drifted off the original topic, but the disscusion about loads is as interesting as the original topic, to me, at least.

My friend/client is not interested in handloading, again due mostly to time contraints, but I most certinly am, and I tend to eschew auto loading rifles for precicion shooting as well.

The added complexity and wieght, not to mention the limitations autoladers impose on ammo and triggers, is just not worth the bother, IMHO.

 

[Tucsondave]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

I just traded off my TRG 42 and a custom Rem 700 .338. I'am awaiting ny AI AW and a PGW Timberwolf in .338. I hope to answer the question, in my opinion, of the 4,which is the best for me. I'll let ya know when I figure it out.

 

[desertHK]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

It may get a bit expensive feeding four 338 LM rifles.

 

[dave338]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?


Sorry just started reading this thead p4 i think about bullets just a point i think you will find the finnish sniper cup was won 2007 with bullets from lutz moller

 

[Tucsondave]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It may get a bit expensive feeding four 338 LM rifles.

</div></div>

There are only two left. You're more than welcome to come down to Tucson for a test run.

 

[BMG50CAL]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

What happened to Wildcat Bullets ? I use to shoot them they were the shit some of the BC i was getting were unbelievable.

Glad i stocked up

 

[Texas_Republic]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

From looking at the prices from the different 338 rifles, it seems like armalite's AR-30 wins hands down for the bang for your buck. Am I wrong? They are going for around $1700 while these others are 3k and up. Please educate me. ha

 

[HOOPSSJH]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Guys you have to look at the German DSR1 338 its a bull pup rifle with a 1 in 10 twist barrel its used by GSG9 CTW. I have 3 AIs and a DSR comes with a bench rest barrel as standard. I was shooting it today at 1500yds what a bit of kit.

 

[dave338]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

guys go and try the b&t apr 338, slighty cheaper than the dsr
but same crazy group sizes,
at 1000 no problem hitting clays nailed to posts!

 

[Chiller]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Who has the popcorn? I want layered butter......

 

[Texas_Republic]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Sooo...Am I right about the bang for your buck? I am wanting to get one, but I dont know enough yet about these rifles. I just thought the armalite looked like the better deal.

 

[shadowarrior]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

Outrider, Bushmaster bought cobb patent, and last time I checked with them they were going into production with the semi auto 338 as Bushmaster MCR 400.

Just my 2cents worth.

 

[hexades1]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

I have talked several times with Lapua folks about the 300 grain Scenars. They agreed with me that one does not really need it for anything as it can not really do anything the 250 Scenar couldn´t. But hey the market is there so they will build and sell it.

Market Economy 101

 

[OutRider]

Re: Who makes the best 338 Lapua?

...so what is the "best" rate of twist for the 338 Lapua...???...

...is there any reason at all to consider a 1 in 9" twist...???...