I've been looking at the Minox zp5 with mr4 reticle. Mostly prs style shooting. Why isn't it more popular? M hesitant to get one bc ive only ever seen 2 being run. Great glass, great reticle. Is there something I'm not hearing about?
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Rifle Scopes Why isnt minox more popular?
- Thread starter A.Bennett
- Start date
There are some QC issues and warranty seems to be hit or miss. If you use the search function you can find the reports for these. There are a couple threads concerning it.
I really liked mine. It is a great scope with great features. The glass is the closest thing I have seen to a Tangent Theta.
@CSTactical has a showroom demo for $2800 that I would not hesitate to snag.
I really liked mine. It is a great scope with great features. The glass is the closest thing I have seen to a Tangent Theta.
@CSTactical has a showroom demo for $2800 that I would not hesitate to snag.
I think it has a lot to do with the fact that it's just not part of the "latest and greatest", and "what's trending now" craze. It has a lot of great features, but like blbennett1288 said, there were/maybe still are some qc issues, hard second rev early on, and the talk of month or more long waits for warranty work seem to have deterred folks from purchasing/running one. I bought mine from @CSTactical , and couldn't be any happier.
Good question.
Have a couple and so far they've done all I've asked.
Part of said above, they haven't been as heavily marketed in the PRS/NRL as much as some.
Next time I see you at BRRC you should run a few rounds with and see what your thoughts are.
@CSTactical is good to go.
R
Have a couple and so far they've done all I've asked.
Part of said above, they haven't been as heavily marketed in the PRS/NRL as much as some.
Next time I see you at BRRC you should run a few rounds with and see what your thoughts are.
@CSTactical is good to go.
R
I have an older gen with MR4 that I bought used here. I love this thing. I'd like to eventually replace all my other scopes with the ZP5. However now that I have a couple Razors with the EBR7C I'm hesitant. The Razor doesn't resolve as well as the ZP5 but holds it's own everywhere else IMO.
They are great scopes overall, most of Team CS Tactical has been running them the past few years (Looks like many of the pics are broken at the link) https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/minox-zp5-5-25x56-and-team-cs-tactical.6899587/
Please give us a call at 916-670-1103 if you have any questions
I do. I'll call later today probably. In research mode before my next purchaseThey are great scopes overall, most of Team CS Tactical has been running them the past few years (Looks like many of the pics are broken at the link) https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/minox-zp5-5-25x56-and-team-cs-tactical.6899587/
Please give us a call at 916-670-1103 if you have any questions
It's because of yours I'm considering it. I loved it when we were at battle of the states. Just can't help but wonder why they aren't more popular. Especially in the prs type stuff.
I agree its saturated, but they've been around awhile. I can't believe it never caught on in a big way.
I have come close to picking one of these up a couple of times but the warranty kind of worries me. IIRC it has a 15 year warranty and its not transferable from original owner. @CSTactical can you clarify?
It's 30 years for the original owner and 15 for the subsequent owner.
I will say that my zp5 had normal good glass.. Really, just normal during the day like most of the other top end scopes.. All the glass is so good especially at normal positional zoom levels.. The FOV is really is the nicest part.
^ so I stand by what I just wrote.. Until, shooting a NRL22 match at night with two giant range lights casting shadows and some of the targets almost impossible to make out on the scope I was using on my Vudoo... @Lonestar1027 brought out his centerfire after the match to look through his Zp5, to see if it might have helped.. About 5-8 of us walked over cause he was saying something like "holly shit", then someone would look through his scope, mumble something and some ran to their truck and pull out a AMG or Razor.. etc.. In the end, everyone felt less enamored with their favorite scope. All I can say, it it was the brightest buy a HUGE margin, weirdly bright like someone turned on way more lights. It was 100% unanimous.. The catch is, we mostly shoot in normal light, so we often don't or can't notice the difference.
^ so I stand by what I just wrote.. Until, shooting a NRL22 match at night with two giant range lights casting shadows and some of the targets almost impossible to make out on the scope I was using on my Vudoo... @Lonestar1027 brought out his centerfire after the match to look through his Zp5, to see if it might have helped.. About 5-8 of us walked over cause he was saying something like "holly shit", then someone would look through his scope, mumble something and some ran to their truck and pull out a AMG or Razor.. etc.. In the end, everyone felt less enamored with their favorite scope. All I can say, it it was the brightest buy a HUGE margin, weirdly bright like someone turned on way more lights. It was 100% unanimous.. The catch is, we mostly shoot in normal light, so we often don't or can't notice the difference.
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They are great scopes. I have been competing with them for a few years. They perform, they track, the glass is outstanding.
I think their are a few people on this forum that like to type more than shoot and complaining on the internet. Other people hear this and repeat it.
If you buy a Minox from CS Tactical, you won't disappointed.
I think their are a few people on this forum that like to type more than shoot and complaining on the internet. Other people hear this and repeat it.
If you buy a Minox from CS Tactical, you won't disappointed.
As mentioned, the showroom demo for $2,800.00 is still available though a lot of people inquired
Why aren't they more popular? Maybe they don't sponsor a lot of matches? They have the best reticles, great turrets and glass that's better than S&B.
I love mine.
I love mine.
Couldn't be happier with mine as well. No problems with it in PRS-type competitions. Had a Razor Gen II before—the Minox is much lighter (what isn't compared to the Razor!), has better glass, better resolution, better low light performance, and the M4 reticle rocks!
I too have a minox and gen2 razor and I love the minox. I’d have all minox if I could afford it. Not too mention the mr4 reticle is the best for me personally.
I'm considering switching to one from the razor. These razors being dumped for 1500 bucks makes it tough though lol
I hate to throw shade, but I have a friend who I think has had 2 (I know of 1) of their scopes go down during matches. Like he was near the lead day one, and then dropped off the planet day 2 because they stopped tracking. IIRC their customer service took care of him, but we put too much work into national level matches to waste time. The glass was excellent and the reticle was good when I looked through it, they just need to work through mechanical issues.
Poor QC, poor customer service, 2-4 month turnaround time and it's not even fixed much of the time.
It might be a hair better glass than ATACR or Razor Gen 2, but both of them will have your scoped fixed or repaired in a fraction of that time if something goes down. The glass difference would have to be significantly bigger than it is for me to absorb that type of reliability risk.
I think folks like a sponsored shooting team can get away with this if they always have a replacement available. For normal folks who just want to stick a scope on a gun and run it and if it goes down then that rifle might be down for months, then the QC and customer service issues present a much bigger risk.
My go-to story with Minox is a buddy of mine who bought one new and it had a canted reticle. Sent it in and it came back un-fixed 3 months later. Sent it in again and they replaced the scope 4 months later with one that had some type of turret issue (tracking problems IIRC). Sent it in again and I haven't talked to him since then, but he had been waiting 9-10 months since he bought the scope and still didn't have a working optic. To me, that's well beyond unacceptable at any price point, much less for what they charge for those things.
It might be a hair better glass than ATACR or Razor Gen 2, but both of them will have your scoped fixed or repaired in a fraction of that time if something goes down. The glass difference would have to be significantly bigger than it is for me to absorb that type of reliability risk.
I think folks like a sponsored shooting team can get away with this if they always have a replacement available. For normal folks who just want to stick a scope on a gun and run it and if it goes down then that rifle might be down for months, then the QC and customer service issues present a much bigger risk.
My go-to story with Minox is a buddy of mine who bought one new and it had a canted reticle. Sent it in and it came back un-fixed 3 months later. Sent it in again and they replaced the scope 4 months later with one that had some type of turret issue (tracking problems IIRC). Sent it in again and I haven't talked to him since then, but he had been waiting 9-10 months since he bought the scope and still didn't have a working optic. To me, that's well beyond unacceptable at any price point, much less for what they charge for those things.
Case and point.
There is at least one horror story for every scope manufacturer out there. I have seen broken scopes from every manufacturer. Go grind your axe somewhere else (or your buddy's axe).
LOL
I have no axe to grind with Minox. Don't own one and never have. Simply telling a factual story that happened in real life. I'd be interested to know if you could find an example of what Razor/ATACR owner has been without a working scope for 10 months?
The answers above pretty much sum up the answer to "why" Minox is not more popular, but I don't think anyone has mentioned the simple fact that the name "Minox" typically does not come up in high end glass discussions (until recently of course). While Minox has been around for many years (remember those tiny spy cameras they made) they have not really been known to be "high end". This is why it's important to clarify the ZP5 line from Minox which is different from all their other scopes, not just because it represents their high end line but because they hired another company to design the ZP5 line. That company has its roots in Schmidt & Bender and was created some years ago to be the Skunk Works of optical design and for a number of years was called "Optronika", outside of sounding like the brother of Optimus Prime from the Transformers franchise, this company was responsible for the design of the Premier Heritage line of scopes, and for those who might be new to the trade, Premier ultimately became Tangent Theta - so it should come as no shock when you look at the specs for a Premier 5-25x56, Tangent Theta 5-25x56 and Minox ZP5 5-25x56 that they are essentially the same. But specs don't tell the whole optical story as each company tends to have their own proprietary multi-coating, reticles, turrets, etc. but they are all "related" in regard to the optical design. Okay, back to "Minox", they are a German company with a small footprint in the states and in lieu of some of the early QC issues and fear of long turnaround time I think many have decided to pass, my guess is this, if they offered a lifetime warranty to whomever owned the scope (and not just first and second owner) and could guarantee that scopes can be repaired here in the states without having to be shipped overseas for anything, I think their adoption rate would rise considerably.
The reward for those who are willing to forego the so-so warranty and potential repair situation (they do have a small repair facility here in the states, but I've still heard of some scopes having to be returned to Germany) is this, you get one of the best scopes optically with one of the best designed tree reticles (MR4) available.
The reward for those who are willing to forego the so-so warranty and potential repair situation (they do have a small repair facility here in the states, but I've still heard of some scopes having to be returned to Germany) is this, you get one of the best scopes optically with one of the best designed tree reticles (MR4) available.
Diver, the low light aspect is often overlooked with sport optics. Because my rifles serve dual duty as long range and hunting rigs I'm always looking for the edge in low light performance. I was a professional photographer for over 15 years and had experience with quite a bit of high end glass, but it wasn't until 2013 when I really started to get into high end sport optics (funny looking back, I wonder why I pursued $$$$ glass in photography but thought I could be satisfied with $$$ glass in shooting). Since 2013 I've owned or used a number of high end optics in my pursuit for the perfect scope (by the way, this scope does not exist and you will drive yourself mad trying to find it) and I must say at this time, the Minox ZP5 is the closest I've found to this. Factors that weigh into my decision are as follows in order of my personal preference:
- Tracking - because if I can't dial accurately I may not hit it
- Optical Quality (Resolution, contrast, color, CA) - because if I cannot see it or see it clearly I may not hit it
- Low light performance - ditto above
- Reticle - I hold for wind so having a good .2 mil hash horizontal stadia is crucial
- Weight - I don't like scopes over 35 oz
- FOV - I want to be able to see an elk at the lowest mag setting at closer ranges (personal preference)
- Eyebox - if a scope is difficult to get behind I could lose a shot, plus it causes fatigue after extended shooting
- Parralax - I like parallax that is forgiving so I don't have to constantly adjust at distance
- DOF - I like more depth to the image
- Turrets - can I dial accurately without looking at the turret
One other factor that matters more to me than other shooters is weight, the ZP5 is one of the lightest 5-25x56 scopes out and this factor alone has kept me away from Tangent Theta and some other scopes that have piqued my interest from time to time, they are simply too heavy for my preference. I used to limit all my choices to scopes that weighed less than 30oz but if you do so you'll find there is a very limited number of high end long range optics that fit that criteria (more so today than there were even 4 years ago) so a number of years ago I upped my criteria to 35oz and this Minox falls right under this number.
I mean @wjm308 nailed it, but I have been running my Minox ZP5 with the MR4 for almost a year now on two different rifles and many thousands of miles of travel for matches. The scope just flat out works and keeps working. Can't say enough good things about the ZP5 in my opinion.
I have a ZP5 that I am mounting on a switch barrel rifle, and will agree that it is very good glass, noticeably more so than the Mark 5 5-25. I fear I made a mistake by mounting the Mark 5 on my hunting rifle and the ZP5 for the range rifle, as WJM 308 stated, it is very light indeed. The only factor that led me to mounting the Mark 5 on the hunting rifle is that it has a locking elevation turret and cap for the windage.
Jerry
Jerry
Man, you guys don't disappoint. I'm really glad for the opinions and information. I may have to just give it a go worst case is bad CS and it's going on a backup rifle. So no sweat. Are there other options in its class that you would recommend in lieu of?
I have experienced their customer service firsthand. I purchased my ZP5 from another Hide member, and the scope was less than ideal when it arrived. The packaging had holes, there was less than adequate material in the box by the time it got here, and apparently the previous owner used it as a barricade stop. Being a bit concerned, I boxed it up (properly) and sent it off to Blaser USA/Minox USA. They told me that they would send it back to Germany to have it looked over. I got the scope back with a printed letter stating it was repaired and now working as it should, but they did not detail what work was involved. The total time after they received it was five weeks when I got the shipping notification. There was zero charge to me other than the cost to ship it to Minox USA. Never once did they question when the scope was purchased, or whether or not I was the first, second, or fifteenth owner.
Jerry
It’s the warranty service situation that holds me back. But then you have a guy like Mike @CSTactical behind every shadow like a Minox ninja keeping the temptation strong. Depending on how the M7Xi stacks up to the ZP5 through Ilya’s evaluation, I may end up with a ZP5 sooner than later.
One thing to keep in mind is buying from a Hide dealer who has consistency on the Hide. I bought mine from Mike at CS Tactical and cant say enough good things about him and his team. They took care of me through the T5Xi fiasco a few years ago, they are the real deal. The CS could easily stand for customer service because they look out for Hide members.
Seems a bit odd to not have reliability and/or customer service on that list. Also seems odd that you were willing to stay away from TT due to 6 ounces of weight, but not willing to consider something like the AMG 6-24 for another 6 ounces of weight reduction. These firm weight requirements have always come across as an odd thing to me, especially given the weight of most of these precision rifles (although my buddy has a ZP5 on a lightweight precision rig and it's freaking sweet).
But overall, good post. I agree with you that turret feel is on my list, but it's way, way down there in priority compared to what I hear from most folks. I've played with everything from cheap athlons to TT, and it just isn't a major factor in a decision about which scope to get.
Patriot, reliability and customer service are definitely something of consideration, please understand I just threw this list together somewhat ad-hoc, I don't have an actual list that I go through when selecting a scope, I generally look at what do I need the scope for and begin to work backward from there. I have owned the AMG and think it is a fantastic scope, in fact, it was my favorite for quite a while until I got my hands on the ZP5 and "saw" what I was missing. Don't get me wrong, for a $2000ish optic the AMG has little competition especially at it's weight but the ZP5 has a better reticle and better optical performance that I decided was worth the additional 5.4oz, which brings up another factor that comes into play and that is price - at the time I purchased the scopes the ZP5 was roughly $600 more than the AMG (but that has since changed as the Minox has increased and the AMG has decreased so there is now a $900 difference and with AMG sales it can be more than $1000).
With regard to weight, yes, one can make that argument of why not another 6oz for the Tangent Theta, but then one could also say why not another 5oz above the TT and get the Hensoldt 3.5-26, here's my thought process on weight - if you're building a purely competition rig then weight does not matter much, in fact, weight can be a benefit to help stabilize the rig, but if you're building a rifle that you're going to haul around the Rocky Mountains for miles at altitude then weight does play an issue. A lot of our decisions are about compromises, I used to own a March 3-24x52 and loved that scope at 24.5oz, but the finicky parallax, poor illumination and lackluster reticle gave way to the AMG which was better in the aforementioned categories and I decided was worth the weight increase, the ZP5 was another step above the AMG and again, I made a decision to increase the weight but until last year TT did not have a reticle that was better than the MR4 IMO, so regardless of the weight it did not excite me, now with the Gen 3XR they have something compelling but does the TT offer $1300 more scope than the ZP5, I'm not sure and the fact that it is over 6oz heavier than the ZP5 just adds more weight to a rig I'm trying to keep reasonable.
In the end, it is probably more of a mental thing, and some guys hike with rifles heavier than mine.
Amongst a group of friends - we had a solid 5 samples of these based on all of the reviews that I'm sure you have read. You know- TT glass without the price and better reticles...
I'm not sure it was a QC / assembly issue as much as it was the material spec. Out of the 5, we ran in to 1 of the near tangent / perfect scope situation when the other 4 had issues with them. Turrets, Glass spec was not like that solid one we had. Like gen 2 PST type glass on one of them. Extremely different and mushy misaligned turrets. So after that - it was a scope lottery game that we weren't going to play. Hats off to the guys that found the good ones- white box or black or whatever. But I definitely didn't find them.
I'm not sure it was a QC / assembly issue as much as it was the material spec. Out of the 5, we ran in to 1 of the near tangent / perfect scope situation when the other 4 had issues with them. Turrets, Glass spec was not like that solid one we had. Like gen 2 PST type glass on one of them. Extremely different and mushy misaligned turrets. So after that - it was a scope lottery game that we weren't going to play. Hats off to the guys that found the good ones- white box or black or whatever. But I definitely didn't find them.
Thank you Richard, you are correct "officially"One tiny correction, the AMG has not come down in price it was the Razor Gen II
I sold mine due to QC issues. The first one I had some issues with the Parallax. Mike at CS Tactical took care of it and sent me a new one, but if I would have actually used it the warranty process would have been significantly more difficult.
And to be completely honest I wasn't that impressed.
And to be completely honest I wasn't that impressed.
I didn't know all that. Thank you. My buddy is selling one fairly cheap. I may have to see if I can figure a way into buying it.
I just bought one used. It is a fantastic scope! I couldnt be happier with it ?
I think these scopes are about to be a lot more popular, the 50% off deal is putting them in a lot more users hands.
Depends on what they do with the price in December after the 50% expires.
It’s typically pretty hard to sell them for $1800 for 6+ months and then go back to getting $2800+ for them. You’ve conditioned buyers they are worth around $2k.
I think if they adjust their pricing to under $2500 after December they may pick up popularity. If not, people will just go back to spending $3k on NF, Schmidt, etc etc.
I finally sold me tangent theta and picked up two of these because the glass was so similar. It doesn’t always show up, but when the difference does, it is impressive. Tangent theta was the same. But I thought two for 1.
Yes, if you buy a Mauser M18 rifle ($4-500), you get a 50% off code from Minox. The rifle is nothing special, but not a bad inexpensive hunting setup. A lot of guys are turning around and selling them for $300ish.
I have a feeling you are correct Dt, the 50% off deal is great for buyers but not so great if you bought yours at full price and now trying to sell for something else, I have a feeling it will be a while before the resale of used ZP5's climbs back up. It will be interesting to see what Minox does after 12/31/2019 when the 50% off deal ends, will they go back to $3200 retail? I can't see Minox making a new scope to replace the 5-25 or 3-15 but that sure would be nice; however, maybe they'll offer some new turrets or something like that.
I can't imagine that there are that many going up, I mean I don't think I've seen more then 5 or 6 pop up in this marketplace already.
