It seems that just a few years ago 6XC, 6 Creedmoor and 6x47 Lapua were dominating the field. Now I'm seeing a substantial shift to 6 BR variants in a lot of shooters. Having never competed in PRS but gaining some interest, what is the reason for this? Is the recoil that much different between a 6 Dasher and a 6x47 Lapua to warrant the Dasher? Is barrel life also a big factor or is it a combination of both? Seems like splitting hairs but not having shot a match I guess you guys will have to educate me.
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Why the Gradual Shift in Cartridge for PRS
- Thread starter nick338
- Start date
Barrel life is a small factor I believe but more importantly its the Lapua BR brass. Anything developed off of the 6BR brass tends to be incredibly consistent. PRS and competition sports in general is all about eliminating variables. It is splitting hairs but if you look at the top 20 guys the difference between them in score is basically splitting hairs so cartridge selection is just another tool to get that extra advantage. I'm not a good enough shot that caliber selection is that important. I shoot a 6.5CM and will continue to do so until it handicaps my performance. As of now I'm the limiting factor.
shooters finally starting to realize barrel life/consistency over longer a duration of time beats an extra 100-200 fps
newer shooters usually start asking questions about how fast they can push X bullet with Y case....they dont like hearing it really doesnt matter as much as they think, but they eventually figure it out
accurate/consistent is a solid combo
newer shooters usually start asking questions about how fast they can push X bullet with Y case....they dont like hearing it really doesnt matter as much as they think, but they eventually figure it out
accurate/consistent is a solid combo
Only need to hit the target hard enough to get a point. Anything more just detracts from your ability to really see well what is happening with your bullet downrange. I'd say that really and truly seeing what happens downrange is one of the things that separates the elite shooters from the rest.
I also think the ability to shoot positional well is worth more than the couple of points from a ballistic advantage of faster FPS. Some guys can shoot a strong positional game no matter what the cartridge or recoil, but it's certainly easier with less recoil. Less flinch, less shooter anticipation, less negative outcome if you fail to manage recoil well, easier to spot impacts/misses and make corrections.
I'd venture to guess that if you handed a 6.5 creed and a 6BR to any shooter on a positional heavy <700 yard course of fire, almost every shooter would do better with a 6BR.
I also think the ability to shoot positional well is worth more than the couple of points from a ballistic advantage of faster FPS. Some guys can shoot a strong positional game no matter what the cartridge or recoil, but it's certainly easier with less recoil. Less flinch, less shooter anticipation, less negative outcome if you fail to manage recoil well, easier to spot impacts/misses and make corrections.
I'd venture to guess that if you handed a 6.5 creed and a 6BR to any shooter on a positional heavy <700 yard course of fire, almost every shooter would do better with a 6BR.
I don't even think the barrel life is all that different, 200-400 rounds, maybe, so you might get one extra match out of the tube depending on caliber.
I think guys are tired of the fire forming and what not. People still do it but a year ago Dasher was all the rage, now you see people running BR variants because there's less work involved in case prep.
Remember the guys at the top are shooting, a lot, and they have to load those rounds, so less steps at the bench translates to more time at the range.
If you see Alpha and Lapua start cranking out Dasher brass that doesn't need the forming work I think you'll see a larger shift in that direction. Alpha is kinda busy helping push the gay tiger agenda right now, though, so we'll see if Dasher gets any love.
Keep in mind if you have a 6xc, 6x47, 6cm, it's easy enough to back off your charge and run it at 2900-3000 and you'll likely get the same barrel life as the smaller cases without any feeding issues or having to retool for another caliber.
I think guys are tired of the fire forming and what not. People still do it but a year ago Dasher was all the rage, now you see people running BR variants because there's less work involved in case prep.
Remember the guys at the top are shooting, a lot, and they have to load those rounds, so less steps at the bench translates to more time at the range.
If you see Alpha and Lapua start cranking out Dasher brass that doesn't need the forming work I think you'll see a larger shift in that direction. Alpha is kinda busy helping push the gay tiger agenda right now, though, so we'll see if Dasher gets any love.
Keep in mind if you have a 6xc, 6x47, 6cm, it's easy enough to back off your charge and run it at 2900-3000 and you'll likely get the same barrel life as the smaller cases without any feeding issues or having to retool for another caliber.
If you walk up to a 1000 yard stage, guess that it's a 7mph wind and it turns out to be a 10mph wind here's what you get...
6BR @ 2850 - miss 22.4" from point of aim.
6 Creed @ 3100 - miss 19.5" from point of aim.
So for a real world stage at 1000 yards, the difference is less than 3 inches.
I'm kinda on the fence on the hotrod 22 cal stuff. Maybe swings a bit too far?
88's at 3000 fps match the ballistics of 105's at 2900 fps, but with about 50 ft/lbs less energy on target at distance, and a similar reduction in recoil force. You'd likely see shorter barrel life though. Maybe 500-600 rounds less per barrel on average, a bit more throat erosion, more need to tune the load as the barrel wears? Kinda goes against the simple/easy to tune/longer barrel life attraction of the BR based 6mm. But if you've got cash for barrels and shoot mainly inside of 1k the 22's could be a real option.
For me somewhere between 6BR and 6x47 is the goldilocks range for this sport.
88's at 3000 fps match the ballistics of 105's at 2900 fps, but with about 50 ft/lbs less energy on target at distance, and a similar reduction in recoil force. You'd likely see shorter barrel life though. Maybe 500-600 rounds less per barrel on average, a bit more throat erosion, more need to tune the load as the barrel wears? Kinda goes against the simple/easy to tune/longer barrel life attraction of the BR based 6mm. But if you've got cash for barrels and shoot mainly inside of 1k the 22's could be a real option.
For me somewhere between 6BR and 6x47 is the goldilocks range for this sport.
sheldon's going gay tiger all the way
88s from a 223/223AI/224 Valk and then a 22 BR/LRV/Creed simplifies trainer versus match. at 10 cheaper for 88s compared to 140 ELDMs. thats $150 less per barrel for bullets.
Raawrr! I just might do it.
I'm a cheapskate for trainer bullets... working my way through 8k of the Nosler 77CC's in my 223. Not great in the wind, but at 11 cents a piece I'm not going to complain.
If you’ve ever shot one of the current hot calibers ind a heavy PRS rifle it is very obvious.
They’re like shooting a hot rodded 22.
Easy mode.
Very forgiving.
And the small 6’s are famous for accuracy and ease of loading.
They’re like shooting a hot rodded 22.
Easy mode.
Very forgiving.
And the small 6’s are famous for accuracy and ease of loading.
Maybe. I think it'll depend more in usable barrel life at those velocities with the heavier projectiles and whether target impact indicators become more widely adopted.
Smaller bullet, longer distance, less energy in target and harder to spot without electronic assistance.
Surprising the target impact indicators are not standard practice. I was having trouble seeing impacts on steel at 1k over the weekend with a mild .308 load using 175 Lapua bullets. Once the target has been hit enough times it's even worse trying to spot them. No mistaking that red light though.
They had them on probably ever target past 1k and some even closer at the NRL Nebraska match. Was refreshing to see it and not worry about losing points to impact energy or inexperienced ROs.
The other thing is the accuracy potential of the 6mmBR and variants, the small vertical at distance coupled with low SD's. No larger 6mm has nor will set any benchrest records.
I shot 6x47L for years and burned through 6 barrels. They shoot tight but not as tight as a 6mmBR is capable of. I don't chrono much but the last two times I did I got 3 fps SD the first time and 2.5 fps a week ago with 6mmBR, both for 5 shots.
So all attributes combined you have low powder consumption in a efficient plus a high quality Lapua brass case, longer barrel and throat life, low SD's, and smaller vertical at distance, along with lower recoil allowing for easier self spotting.
6mmBR - Now I don't feel bad knowing that by 1000 rounds I have to come up with a bunch of money for a new barrel like I did with 6x47. My last 6x47 barrel lost 77 fps from 1300-ish rounds to 1600. Story - way back when I milked my first 6x47L barrel to 2400 rounds and it gave up during a match, thinking I was safe one year later at the same match (same stage no less on 1" targets) the next barrel went at 1500 rounds. Sucks trying to hit 1" with little hostages at 100Y with a 2.25" burned out barrel, lol.
I shot 6x47L for years and burned through 6 barrels. They shoot tight but not as tight as a 6mmBR is capable of. I don't chrono much but the last two times I did I got 3 fps SD the first time and 2.5 fps a week ago with 6mmBR, both for 5 shots.
So all attributes combined you have low powder consumption in a efficient plus a high quality Lapua brass case, longer barrel and throat life, low SD's, and smaller vertical at distance, along with lower recoil allowing for easier self spotting.
6mmBR - Now I don't feel bad knowing that by 1000 rounds I have to come up with a bunch of money for a new barrel like I did with 6x47. My last 6x47 barrel lost 77 fps from 1300-ish rounds to 1600. Story - way back when I milked my first 6x47L barrel to 2400 rounds and it gave up during a match, thinking I was safe one year later at the same match (same stage no less on 1" targets) the next barrel went at 1500 rounds. Sucks trying to hit 1" with little hostages at 100Y with a 2.25" burned out barrel, lol.
My theory on the move from fast 6's (6x47, 6XC, 6Creed, 6SLR,..) to the small 6's (6BR, 6BRA, 6BRDX, 6Dasher) based on my own experience is load stability. The small 6's do have longer barrel life and lower recoil, but I think more importantly the load node seems to last longer. With the fast 6's, the throat seems to burn out fast enough that you're tweaking the load every few hundred rounds, so you end up continually chasing the node. In a cartridge that has a short barrel life, it's a double whammy. The small 6's, the load node seems to last much longer, so it doesn't feel like you're constantly chasing the load. That consistency and ease of tuning is what I think makes the small 6's attractive.
I was listening to the new VP Precision podcast this morning with Vibbert and Pynch and they were echoing the same thing. Consistency throughout life and through barrel to barrel. One of the reasons I went to one.
I shoot a 6cm and load it fairly tame, current avg mv is 2925. So far, at ~1000 rounds thru barrel and still going strong. Makes for a very nice shooting rifle off barricades etc.
Rifle will out shoot me, so no sense in chasing velocity.
Rifle will out shoot me, so no sense in chasing velocity.
It differed throughout the years/R17, H4350, N160, but my last load with a "extra long .208" freebore" was 43.1 grains H4831sc with a 105 hybrid and CCI450. 3172 fps out of a 28" barrel. That much powder won't fit in a standard freebore without excessive compression.
I'm big on the load stability issue.
Also on bullet stability.
Too much twist means too much yaw(pitch) as the trajectory deepens. The net result is deviation from prediction; more drag, more drop, and it can get very big at extended distance. Stability factor must be a part of your plan.
I pay as much attention to energy figures at distance as Velocity/BC, they tell a lot about what's maybe not in the ballistic chart.
As energy drops, deflections become a more significant factor in the bullet's path. Mass equals energy. I prefer to have the bullet lead that race.
As for misses, BC is just another number as long as one sustains a viable supersonic velocity on target. The real issue is, has always been, always will be, wind skills.
Know your distance, know your drops and drifts. Not just what the charts say, but also what the targets says, and often.
Greg
Also on bullet stability.
Too much twist means too much yaw(pitch) as the trajectory deepens. The net result is deviation from prediction; more drag, more drop, and it can get very big at extended distance. Stability factor must be a part of your plan.
I pay as much attention to energy figures at distance as Velocity/BC, they tell a lot about what's maybe not in the ballistic chart.
As energy drops, deflections become a more significant factor in the bullet's path. Mass equals energy. I prefer to have the bullet lead that race.
As for misses, BC is just another number as long as one sustains a viable supersonic velocity on target. The real issue is, has always been, always will be, wind skills.
Know your distance, know your drops and drifts. Not just what the charts say, but also what the targets says, and often.
Greg
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Will be interesting to see what the Hornady 110 A-tip will do out of a 6 BR. If consistency from lot to lot is as good as they say then pairing that with what you guys are talking about sounds like a great combo.
I’m relatively certain you could put 30grains of dogshit in lapua 6br brass and be sub 0.5 moa out of the gate with a quality barrel and decent Smith. Dasher is 32 grains of dogshit and a few tenths less windage. Even in hydroformed HLR lapua.
And why we are staying with the 6’s.
And why we are staying with the 6’s.
Chasing cartridges is fine if every other element of your shooting is dead on. 99% of us chase it thinking it's a shortcut. It isn't.
It may get you an impact or two over a 220 shot match, but unless you're already at the top ten does it matter you came in 76th instead of 75th? To me it doesn't.
Looking for a new caliber for me is only a matter of when my brass starts to let go. 600 pieces = a barrel every two and a half cycles of reloading. I've got 4X or 5x on all my brass. I should burn out at least another four barrels before that brass starts to let go. That's a couple of years.
People might be MFing Bi-Rhino by then...who knows.
It may get you an impact or two over a 220 shot match, but unless you're already at the top ten does it matter you came in 76th instead of 75th? To me it doesn't.
Looking for a new caliber for me is only a matter of when my brass starts to let go. 600 pieces = a barrel every two and a half cycles of reloading. I've got 4X or 5x on all my brass. I should burn out at least another four barrels before that brass starts to let go. That's a couple of years.
People might be MFing Bi-Rhino by then...who knows.
Phil Cashin from MPA measured a bunch of them. From what he saw they weren't really any more consistent than berger hybrids. Maybe lot to lot consistency is better though, as some lots of hybrids seem to be very different.
I remember from watching the video that the consistency had something to do with the manufacturing process specifically related to the A-tip but I can't remember if it was all the bullets in the same lot or if individual lots were supposed to be consistent across the board.
The real reason no one wants to admit:
A 22" barrel with the 105's going 3025 fps in the rifle I sold my friend.
Had the 115 DTACS at 3000 fps with a 26" 7.5 twist.
I used the same reamer on all of the barrels.
Since the 6mmBR variants won’t feed/eject properly out of AIs, what are you shooting out of your AI?
I’ve shot a variety just cause I get bored
Past few years I’ve done 6 comp match, 6 creed, 6slr, and 6.5 creed...6.5 Creed is what my last 2-3 barrels have been
Tell that to team AI who all run 6BR’s except 1 who’s still running 6.5x47 lol
That’s great to hear. Do you know what they had to modify/what mag kits they’re running?
Matt custom made their kits but it’s the same as the HRD kits when we compared mags.
So they just needed mag kits? There aren’t any ejection issues running 6BR in AIs?
I haven’t had any issues but I’m running AW mags hrd kit in a Vector action. When I was at the AI classic this year I didn’t see any issues with any of them. And they all finished very well in match. Especially considering the storm on Sunday.
Mag kits are handy but not a 100% necessary. Just load your rounds a 1/4” from the rear of the mag and roll
