Advanced Marksmanship Why use thumbhole stocks?

[TorF]

I have a background in international moving target shooting. I never reached top level but my training partner became Olympic Champion in the Seoul '88 summer games.

The thumbhole stocks on Anschutz and Walther matchrifles went out of fashion in the middle of the 80'ies due to the inherent lack of triggercontrol and "rifle indexing". (pardon my bad english)

The thumbhole stock is also a serious drawback when it comes to fast follow up shots on a tactical bolt rifle. A regular stock has at least a 50% timed advantage given "identical control" on the "follow up".

Why then do people buy thumbhole stocks?

 

[NY700]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Interesting qustion. By chance where did you get your statistics regarding a 50% decrease in follow up shots when using a thumb hole and how did they calculate it. I will be interested to see the replies to this post.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

because they are nice to use in some situations, Also why do people like black and others like white?

I have only one thumbhole and it is on an F Class rifle in 7mm Rem Short mag it is easier to steer the rifle under heavy recoil prone that with a conventional stock. the stocks you were mentioning were not ever designed for fast shooting or even field use but in slow fire prone position they are some of the most comfortable i have used.

The question is why are you against people having a choice?

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NY700</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting qustion. By chance where did you get your statistics regarding a 50% decrease in follow up shots when using a thumb hole and how did they calculate it. I will be interested to see the replies to this post. </div></div>

An old olympic shooting event is "Running Deer double shots" were you fire two shots on a "running deer" at 100m. You have to fire two shots as the deer target "runs" across a 20m opening in a wall in 4,7sec. The X-ring is 6". A thumbhole boltrifle is not competitive in this event. The amount of hand movement during reloading between the shots is far too complicated and takes too much time.

You can use pump action rifles but they are not competitive due to long locktime/hammerfall.

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because they are nice to use in some situations, Also why do people like black and others like white?

I have only one thumbhole and it is on an F Class rifle in 7mm Rem Short mag it is easier to steer the rifle under heavy recoil prone that with a conventional stock. the stocks you were mentioning were not ever designed for fast shooting or even field use but in slow fire prone position they are some of the most comfortable i have used.

The question is why are you against people having a choice?

</div></div>

I'm not against people having a choice. I just wonder why people are buying a piece of equipment that under similar shooting conditions in other shooting events has an obvious disadvantage.

The Anschutz and Walther rifles I mention are scoped targetrifles for the fastest moving target event, "Running Boar". On fast runs you have to mount the rifle from the hip and fire on a moving target in less than 2.5sec. The boar target target crosses a 10m opening in the wall in 2.5sec. Range is 50m. X-ring is app 2".

 

[JRose]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

I think you're numbers are a little skewed...

I use and thumbhole stocks and don't feel at a disadvantage in the least... When shooting movers at RO, a stage in which you have a limited time to fire 10 shots at a moving target, I never felt like the thumbhole held me back.

When needing to shoot fast follow ups, I sometimes just leave my thumb out of the hole and grip it like a normal stock.

For me, I shoot a thumbhole stock better, and have found away around the "disadvantage" you speak of.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

cuz people got thumbs and some wanna stick em in somewhere.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

i see absolutely no disadvantage to thumbholes, im just as fast on follow up shots as i was on a McM. Hell i was as fast on my follow up shots today as some guys on gassers

 

[eleaf]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Here! Here!

That said, a thumbhole gives me superior control of my rifle, and it's far more comfortable to boot.

After having used a thumbhole on my savage 17 HMR in order to force myself to switch to shooting rifles right handed (for one reason or another, I learned how to shoot left handed as it always felt more natural in my hand despite being right eye dominant), I haven't looked back. Thumbholes rule.

Besides, not all of us shoot at fictitious moving deer at 100m with a 6" target under time constraints.

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here! Here!

That said, a thumbhole gives me superior control of my rifle, and it's far more comfortable to boot.

After having used a thumbhole on my savage 17 HMR in order to force myself to switch to shooting rifles right handed (for one reason or another, I learned how to shoot left handed as it always felt more natural in my hand despite being right eye dominant), I haven't looked back. Thumbholes rule.

Besides, not all of us shoot at fictitious moving deer at 100m with a 6" target under time constraints. </div></div>

The reference to olympic style shooting is only ment to underline the fact that using a thumbhole stock is a disadvantage for fast follow up shots.

 

[Yachtee]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

I use a thumb hole because i have larger hands and i feel like i have alot more "control" with it. I think the McM A series stocks have the best set up for thumb position

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TorF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here! Here!

That said, a thumbhole gives me superior control of my rifle, and it's far more comfortable to boot.

After having used a thumbhole on my savage 17 HMR in order to force myself to switch to shooting rifles right handed (for one reason or another, I learned how to shoot left handed as it always felt more natural in my hand despite being right eye dominant), I haven't looked back. Thumbholes rule.

Besides, not all of us shoot at fictitious moving deer at 100m with a 6" target under time constraints. </div></div>

The reference to olympic style shooting is only ment to underline the fact that using a thumbhole stock is a disadvantage for fast follow up shots. </div></div>

TorF read my post a couple of posts up i can work a bolt and get a follow up shot about as quick as guys with gas guns. All it takes is a little practice, its not a disadvantage at all

 

[JRose]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TorF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here! Here!

That said, a thumbhole gives me superior control of my rifle, and it's far more comfortable to boot.

After having used a thumbhole on my savage 17 HMR in order to force myself to switch to shooting rifles right handed (for one reason or another, I learned how to shoot left handed as it always felt more natural in my hand despite being right eye dominant), I haven't looked back. Thumbholes rule.

Besides, not all of us shoot at fictitious moving deer at 100m with a 6" target under time constraints. </div></div>

The reference to olympic style shooting is only ment to underline the fact that using a thumbhole stock is a disadvantage for fast follow up shots. </div></div>

TorF read my post a couple of posts up i can work a bolt and get a follow up shot about as quick as guys with gas guns. All it takes is a little practice, its not a disadvantage at all </div></div>

Yeah, but no telling where those bullets are going!!!

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

blow me Jason

those hit their targets

 

[Mike]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TorF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The reference to olympic style shooting is only ment to underline the fact that using a thumbhole stock is a disadvantage for fast follow up shots. </div></div>

I really don't think comparing a very specialize style of shooting with an extremely small caliber with questionable statistics is indicative of what your broad-statements claim. Thumbhole stocks are and advantage in most types of shooting. After all, whether it be evolutionism or creationism, you were given opposing thumbs for a reason.

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

When the magazine "tactical Shooter" was alive. Norm and Rocky chandler did a very nice article on this subject. Their quote was something like, "there are rifle stocks, canoe paddles and canoe paddles with holes in them."

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical too</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the magazine "tactical Shooter" was alive. Norm and Rocky chandler did a very nice article on this subject. Their quote was something like, "there are rifle stocks, canoe paddles and canoe paddles with holes in them."
</div></div>

Please, like Norm knows what he is talking about, probably never shot one, it just interfered with his sales... did he form that opinion during his time commanding combat troops ? Oh wait, he does have combat experience doesn't he ?

The AI stock is an awesome tactical stock, and in no way does it put the trigger finger at a disadvantage, nor does it compromise speed.

It's an outstanding ambidextrous tactical stock... period.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

The only reason you say that is because you've shot a gazillion rounds with one. Clearly, you should leave the opinions to those of use who have never used one.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

You guys really need to quit letting reality intervene in these discussions. They really are less interesting when you let fact and common sense get the in the way.

I have a .22 LR with a thumb hole. I have shot AICS equipped rifles. I prefer standard stocks, but it's just a preference. I can shoot thumb hole stocks pretty damn well if I need to.

 

[Tribe]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only reason you say that is because you've shot a gazillion rounds with one. Clearly, you should leave the opinions to those of use who have never used one. </div></div>

 

[Busby.]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Shooting prone it doesn't make a difference for me. Where I really like the thumbhole is positional shooting. It lets me control the rifle better and I feel like I have more manipulation of the stock as a whole. I first starting shooting non-thumbholes and loved them till I tried an AICS. I shoot a Sentinel now and would never go back to anything but a thumbhole. Just my opinion.

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical too</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the magazine "tactical Shooter" was alive. Norm and Rocky chandler did a very nice article on this subject. Their quote was something like, "there are rifle stocks, canoe paddles and canoe paddles with holes in them."
</div></div>

Please, like Norm knows what he is talking about, probably never shot one, it just interfered with his sales... did he form that opinion during his time commanding combat troops ? Oh wait, he does have combat experience doesn't he ?

The AI stock is an awesome tactical stock, and in no way does it put the trigger finger at a disadvantage, nor does it compromise speed.

It's an outstanding ambidextrous tactical stock... period. </div></div>

I'm just sayin.......

 

[Lindy]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

The Chandlers are bullshit artists.

Notice that there is a period at the end of the preceeding sentence.

 

[Tactical one]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

I did notice the period at the end of the pr_ceeding sentence.

 

[Guest]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Why thumbhole?

1) A vast majority of the folks here using the "thumbhole" style are using them for "practical" purposes. I lump hunting, LEO/Mil, competitions, and fun as "practical" in that the same gun could be used as all 4 or at the very least 3 out of 4.

These guns are not "practical" to me:
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?menu=105&sprache=1

Like dragsters, they are built to compete, and would serve as more of a liability in other practical uses.

2) Aside from the fact that I believe the AI rifles to be the sexiest fucking thing to sling bullets ever, I have no doubt in my mind that Malcolm Cooper knew his stuff.

3) The late Malcolm Cooper aside, many other people I respect in the shooting community (locally and nationally) have a strong preference or at the very least respect for the AICS or similar stocks.

4) According to the Anschutz website, a majority of the rifles in their catalog have either thumb-hole or pistol grips. Both of which would suffer from your "disadvantages", yet still seem popular.

5) Although I have not known any Olympic-caliber shooters, I have known other Olympic-caliber athletes. Suggesting something adaptive and improvised like JRose did above would never be considered. If you truly have ever competed at any level of individual competition, you should know that these athletes are ritualistic to the point that would make the folks at the Vatican look unorganized and random.

6) Anyone can train to do anything they want. Granted some things are easier to learn than others. I'm sure there are some that could be trained to run a gun upside down in competition and still be competative. It's all in how bad you want to train for it.

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

OK, I'll rephrase my argument.

-You have a rifle that is 100% optimized for your off hand shooting event with a stock that has a thumbhole and "thumb up" position.(like Anschutz 54 MS rep/Walther/Coopermatch/whatever)

-You score 30+ every match at NRA Silhouette 500m full bore or 100m rf.

-You score 595 of 600 at 10m air rifle moving target or 50m running boar ( You'll contend for medals )

If you are this good with a scoped rifle off hand more than 90% of the shooters at this level will score better results with the "thumb up" position on the stock. The anathomy in the hand is such that a "thumb up"-position gives better triggercontrol and less movement in the rifle compared with a triggerpull using the thumb in the thumbhole.

If you add fast reloading to the game using the thumbhole in the stock is a disadvantage. The handmovement using the thumbhole grip involve several moves that are unnessesery with a regular/thumb up position. In olympic events that involves fast reloading, like biathlon or running deer, you are not competitive with a thumbhole grip.

My point is that this knowledge should be considered when a new tactical rifle is configured. You might not score better shooting off bipods but try shooting off hand.

Having a rifle configured for optimum triggercontrol and the fastest possible follow up shot has never been an disadvantage.

( Sorry for bad english. It is not my native language.)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Thumb hole stocks got a big boost during the Clinton Gun Ban, when pistol grips were considered evil and a definite indication that a firearms bearing one was in fact 'an evil gun'. They were implemented as a means to circumvent that portion of the gun ban definitions. That part of it worked, not so sure how good or bad they were when it came down to actual shooting. Personally, I got no problems with 'em.

Greg

 

[DaveV]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thumb hole stocks got a big boost during the Clinton Gun Ban, when pistol grips were considered evil and a definite indication that a firearms bearing one was in fact 'an evil gun'. They were implemented as a means to circumvent that portion of the gun ban definitions. That part of it worked, not so sure how good or bad they were when it came down to actual shooting. Personally, I got no problems with 'em.

Greg </div></div>
And remember, Greg, that most of those '94AWB stocks were a puky orange color and not black. We all knew and still know, that black is a lethal color and should never be found in a civilized society.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Boltripper sits on his hands

 

[JRose]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Boltripper sits on his thumbs </div></div>

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

How true...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

TorF,

You're talking personal preference in how "you" manipulate the bolt and fire the rifle.

Again, the thumbhole doesn't put your hand at a disadvantage, unless you personally feel it does, in which case I would ask you what your favorite color is.

Some people actually "float" the thumb and wrap the other fingers around the pistol grip while keeping the thumb outside the hole, floating along the stock. It helps them with a consistent trigger press and sort of braces the hand in position.

So, it's a different strokes for different folks sort of thing... look at the Tactical Stocks from McMillan alone, there are numerous designs with varying differences all to meet an individual idea of the perfect stock -- where again, it comes down to favorite food, favorite color, favorite car, favorite shoe, favorite sexual positions, there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...favorite sexual positions, there is no right or wrong answer. </div></div>

Jackhammer

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

The ONLY right answer.... thank you.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TorF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The anathomy in the hand is such that a "thumb up"-position gives better triggercontrol and less movement in the rifle compared with a triggerpull using the thumb in the thumbhole. </div></div>

This is totally inaccurate.

The anatomy of the human had is thumb horizontal when the palm is vertical (like when firing a rifle). take your hand and lay it on the desk (palm to the side) keep the palm 90 degrees from the surface. Relax mussles in your had. What shape is your hand in? The shape of a pistol grip or thumbhole grip.

This is a more natural, relaxed possision. Ideally, you want your hand to put as little force as possible on the stock. With your thumb up, it is going to be putting force in a linear direction against the rifle (perpendicular to it). If your hand is in its natural, relaxed position, you can control the rifle with force parralel to the bore, and trigger.

With a thumbhole or pistol grip, you do not have to contract the mussles in your hand to control the rifle either, you have nearly 360 degrees of contact surface on the grip, you have half that with a thumb up position.

Try holding your hand out, relax your fingers and thumb, touch the tip of you thumb to the tip of your middle finger. This should be close to the diameter of a pistol grip. Now, without moving your fingers, raise your thumb strait up.

Whereas you had a circle before wrapping around the grip, now you have half of one.

Pulling your thumb out of the thumbhole is no slower (for me) than pulling your finger out of the trigger gaurd. It should be a fluid motion anyway, not one than the other. I don't see how this is much of a disavantage, esspecially compaired to all the advantages you get explained earlier.

That's my take, anyway, but I am not an Olympic shooter. One specific shooting disipline my be different, but I have found the AI stock to be the best option for all around shooting diciplines, styles and possisions.

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, the thumbhole doesn't put your hand at a disadvantage, unless you personally feel it does, in which case I would ask you what your favorite color is.

</div></div>

No, it's not quite that simple. If you shoot off hand at top level the scores are better if you shoot "thumb up". I like to compare a thumbhole grip with the old style "support hand index finger on the front of triggerguard" in practical pistol shooting. No one (there are exceptions to the rule) shoots practical pistol like that anymore.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

I should have added that controling a small bore or air rifle through recoil is much easier then a high power. I primarily shoot high power, so this could partially dictate what works best for me, as opposed to what may work best for someone else.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

First off you are confusing two different disciplines and styles of shooting, but secondly I don't see why you couldn't shoot "thumb up" with a thumbhole stock if you wanted too, unless I am not following you correctly.

I never shot, nor would I advocate the index finger on the trigger guard for pistol shooting, that is not how it's taught so I wouldn't begin to understand where you are going with that reference ? It just confuses me more, which is easy.

Because the pistol grip is small, I can easily grip the rifle with my 3 fingers, and have a thumb up position if I wanted too, however tactical rifles are not designed to be shot offhand except for snap shooting in very up close situations where its necessary. Anyone who tries to successfully shoot groups from the offhand with a 15lbs rifles knows its a lesson in futility, a couple of shots, sure, but long run, no. We do it from an up ready position where the rifle is only up and fired in a few short seconds, we don't try to hold it up. In that case, I also cant the rifle because I'm using it inside 100m only. Distance is supposed to give you time and opportunity to build a more stable position, which is why we employ long rifles.

As stated I would have to explore and investigate Olympic shooting styles more, but generally that stuff only marginally translate to tactical employment. It does, but then again, doesn't.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Okay, looking at some images of Olympic style shooters, I think I see where the confusion comes in.

The stocks that drop off the back, where no thumbhole exists lets the shooter line their hand up with the trigger pretty square. But the thumbhole version of the same type rifle has the shooters hand at a bit of an angle, if I am reading you correctly.

Again, two very different rifles, recoils, and purposes, but in your case, I can see where they ride the thumb up along the back of the stock were it falls off, so that thumb high position is actually riding the vertical there. It could probably work if a Tactical Stock was designed like that, but they aren't, mainly do to the receiver design which is vastly different from an air rifle or .22 competition rifle.

You could do something similar with a thumbhole, but in the case I think you are talking about, the other stock design appears to work pretty well... It's hard to tell, most images are not as good as I would want, but I can see some differences that may lead to the confusion.

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have added that controling a small bore or air rifle through recoil is much easier then a high power. I primarily shoot high power, so this could partially dictate what works best for me, as opposed to what may work best for someone else. </div></div>

In my experience there is no difference between small bore and high power rifles.

What I'm saying in ths post is what I've seen in use and how equipment has evolved at the ranges for the last 20 years at top level off hand shooting.

I think people who wants to develop a new tactical stock should take a hard look at the stocks used on biathlon rifles. The top biathlon competitors need ultimate triggercontrol and good ergonomics for fast reloading.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Torf, there is a big different look at the size and position of the bolt, it matters... a lot of people who run square to the trigger hit the bolt knob with their their knuckle. Not to mention the trigger weight is miles apart.

I agree with you as far as a biathlon stock, but there are some things you can't get around. Like how the receivers are made. Good biathlon rifles move the bolt handle out of the way, as well they don't come as far back as on a full size rifle. You can ride up on it it more.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

Observe,

This just won't translate correctly to shooting a full sized tactical rifle:

Nor this

Tons more, but that Thumb up won't work with a full size action you would have to come off the rifle to reload, tactical stocks let the shooter keep their heads down on the glass with a full size bolt coming back at them. The mechanics of the movement are different - not to mention these rifles are purpose built for one thing and one thing only shooting this style of competition, a tactical rifle has to accomplish many missions.

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

There are tactical rifles that has almost has the same handling characteristics as a biathlon rifle. This is an old rifle, SIG Sauer SSG2000. http://www.i-e-a.de/productslink4.html

In the middle of the 90'ies I watched a swedish shooter in training at Bisley score 5 shots, 5 hits at a 6" moving target@100m in 4.7sec. He did it with a rifle very similar to the SSG2000 using the same action chambered for 6.5x55. His mags took only 4 rounds so I remember him topping up his rifle with one round directly in the chamber. It was all part of a betting game before the serious shooting started.

The Steyr SSG can also be fitted with stocks that give it almost biathlon style handling. Both the SSG2000 and SSG has the advantage of short bolt throw due to the rear locking lug configuration. There is no need move the head while reloading with these rifles.

If I were to build a 700SA rifle today with a McMillan stock I would choose the modified 40X. I used to have a Rem 40X with the std McM 40X stock and the grip fitted my hand perfectly for fast shooting and follow up shots.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

From my observation, the purpose of the thumbhole stock is to assure not only recoil control, but better accuracy from allowing the hand to pull the trigger straight to the rear.

This is why, in my observations, the preference is going to more vertical style stock designs, which place the human hand in a more advantageous position for a clean, perfectly rearward trigger pull.

On a shotgun where movement is more important and controlling recoil in a different plane is desirable, a normal style stock design is typically superior. Case in point--pistol grip stocks are not generally competitive in USPSA Multigun on shotguns.

Precision shooting for me is all about comfort. When we talk about NPA, what we're really talking about is a state of absolute comfort...when the shooter is so comfortable behind the rifle that it basically drives itself.

For me and many others, this can be more easily achieved with a more vertical stock grip.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

But you are back to specific recommendations and personal preference... not everyone does things like you, or handles a bolt the way you do...

If you want speed, get an AR10, if you can successfully engage targets in about 3 seconds per target you are doing fine, the time is essentially meaningless because who is going to chase you around with a stop watch. Most people on the rifles only range can engage the mover just fine with what they have... better shooters can do about 7 to 10 hits in a single pass.

If speed was the deciding factor I would use a left handed bolt so my support hand ran the bolt while my firing hand never left the trigger, the only compromise would be unsupported positional shooting.

We all don't use the same rifles.

 

[TorF]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

LL: I talk about a combination of speed and accuracy with boltactions shooting off hand. A gas gun is not competitive against a boltaction in a NRA 500m high power silhouette match even if you limit the max shooting time to 15-20sec pr string of 5 shots. The gas gun looses out due to locktime/hammerfall.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TorF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL: I talk about a combination of speed and accuracy with boltactions shooting off hand. A gas gun is not competitive against a boltaction in a NRA 500m high power silhouette match even if you limit the max shooting time to 15-20sec pr string of 5 shots. The gas gun looses out due to locktime/hammerfall. </div></div>

Not for everyone, we had a Canadian at the SHC who shot 5 -- 12" targets at 600 yards in 8 seconds, all hits, in fact I couldn't call hit fast enough.
Most bolt guns do the same drill in 12 to 15 seconds with a 20 second max time limit. But 3 seconds per shot is easy to do.

Speed and accuracy is a product of practice, not the stock.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

I've seen Jerry Miculek fire a revolver faster than an autopistol can fire, because Jerry doesn't have to wait for the slide to return to fire the revolver, but I've never seen anyone who could fire a bolt gun faster than a semiauto.

If someone can't fire a gas gun faster than a bolt gun, it's probably because they don't know how to shoot the gas gun properly.

 

[StrikeHold]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

That's the gayest-looking firing line I have ever seen.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Why use thumbhole stocks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



Precision shooting for me is all about comfort. When we talk about NPA, what we're really talking about is a state of absolute comfort...when the shooter is so comfortable behind the rifle that it basically drives itself. </div></div>

Exactly - about comfort. That is why us prone sling and coat shooters say, "if it is comfortable you are doing it wrong. Prone is not for sissies."