Advanced Marksmanship Wind read- More important at gun or target?

[Jethro21]

When shooting the other day out to 625yds my buddy and I were trying to decide where the wind has the most effect on the bullet, at the gun or target.

I assumed (just a rookie guess) that wind would have more effect on the bullet the closer to the target, as the bullet is losing velocity, specifically thinking about the yardage we were shooting at. My buddy disagreed, thinking wind had more effect at the gun up to a point (not sure how far).

We both made separate adjustments, me for the wind as I estimated it at the target and my friend for the wind at the gun. Honestly, I don't know that we really found an answer, we both went 8 for 10.

Can anyone shed some light for me?

Thanks,
Jethro

 

[McCrazy]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

While the bullet is slower as it reaches the target, the wind doesn't have nearly as much time to effect the bullet flight. Hence the wind at the muzzle actually has more effect on trajectory.

Remember: an object in motion tends to stay in motion. If the bullet is pushed at the muzzle it will continue to fly further off course the entire flight even if there is not a wind still affecting it.

 

[Mister Ouchie]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

There's a good lesson on exactly this in the Online Training.

 

[TRAAV]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I always dope the wind off my my firing position and then just try and do the best I can with reading what the wind is doing down range.

One way I look at it is I know what the wind is doing at my firing location. Everything else along the way is nothing more that a educated guess. ;~}.

I defiantly have alot to learn on reading wind.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Current United States Army Marksmanship Unit doctrine on the matter states wind will have the greatest effect at mid range. Since I've come to trust this authority's position on matters like this, I now read the mid range wind; and, it appears, this method does indeed work better than the hodgepodge of concepts which I had earlier used.

A few years ago at Camp Atterbury, while shooting what would be my last EIC Service Rifle match, I recall the wind at the 300 yard target was left to right. At my firing point the wind was also left to right. The mid range wind was right to left at about 10 MPH. I went with the mid range wind and shot a 99 and something while the other shooters on that relay went, it appeared, with the left to right wind, which effectively doubled their disappointment. At any rate, I did not win the tournament; but, my mid range wind reading commitment that day helped me get back into the event, after having shot a miss at 200 standing, to finish second place with a 474 and 14, which was good for 8 leg points. This wrapped up my hunt for my Distinguished badge, all because I simply tried out the mid range idea that the best shooters on the planet told me I might want to try out. I do not suggest you wait as I did to test any method in a competitive event, but just try out the mid range concept, where whatever concept you are now using is failing, and you can get an idea whether or not this is something you want in your tool box.

Remember: wind has the greatest effect on ballistic trajectories. The amount of effect depends on the time the bullet is exposed to the wind, the direction of the wind, and the velocity of the wind. Reading wind at mid range seems to account well for the time the bullet is exposed to wind, wind direction, and wind velocity, even in disparate conditions/environments.

 

[Emouse]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

McCoy's excellent treatise on Ballistics states that the flight of a .30 cal bullet was shown to be effected greatest at the 400yrd mark.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I think it depends on where you are shooting as the point of interest is Max Ordinate of the round.

This is mainly because of the effect of the wind higher off the ground. The further from the ground you are, or in this case the bullet is, the more effect the wind will have due to a velocity increase from reduced ground friction.

The problem with doping downrange you have no way of getting a consistent wind speed to within 1 MPH, you're basically looking up in the air <span style="font-style: italic">(see heights)</span> and the wind is invisible. Most shooters are viewing mirage along the ground and not up where the bullet is traveling so they are slightly off on their reading to start with... as well mirage has it's own limitations that have been discussed at length.

But Max Ord matters at distances usually beyond 600m, before that distance the height is not as big an issue and the TOF is so short the effects mid range of a 600m aren't much different from the recorded wind at the shooter.

For new shooters, wind at the muzzle is the most important, as ALL wind reading begins at the shooter and it is ONLY wind you can verify with any degree of certainty. As your personal database grows and your experience increases you can begin to move downrange, the more experience you have the further downrange you can estimate the wind successfully. Understanding the mid range effects one does not have to estimate the mid range speed, instead you can simply increase the speed recorded at the shooter based on the distance beyond 600m shot. For example if you are shooting 1000m and read a 10MPH wind at the shooter, doping it for 12MPH might be a smarter way to handle it. Depending on the velocity and gusts, a 2 to 4 MPH is pretty easy to estimate for a bullet that will go 6M above the LOS.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

From my experiences I have found great results with reading wind throughout the flight path when time allows, which most of the time doesn't happen due to time restrictions.

So for practical purposes I choose to read wind at about mid range depending upon target range. 400-500 and in I read at target, past that I concentrate my efforts at mid range but also sneak a peak the last 1/3 of the bullet path.

To decode this poorly explained post, Im mostly a mid range guy when in most shooting conditions, but agree with LL about the importance of max ord.

 

[Jethro21]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

So if I am reading this correctly, I should be first working to make an accurate read at the gun (I do not have electronics to measure this so it is all estimation), then begin to pay more attention to wind throughout the flight path, especially (as it appears in the figure LL posted) the last 1/3.

Close?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

The process is,

Feel the wind at you, estimate it by sound, feeling, visually.

Then confirm your estimate electronically if possible. (I think the wind is 6MPH the kestrel says 8MPH)

Determine a wind adjustment necessary for the shot.

Visually look downrange and compare that estimate with your visual of the conditions downrange, if you are capable adjust focus mid range (final 1/3) and read the mirage or estimate it based on indicators, then correlate that visual with the estimation at the rifle. (is it still 8MPH or do you think it is 10MPH)

Shoot !

Compare actual results with estimation. Record the data so you can review it later and compare results to electronic data such as JBM. (Use the free software to model the conditions and see what the computer says compared to the actual results)

Make sure you indicate direction, velocity, any gusts, scope adjustment used and you can even draw the approximate wave pattern of the mirage if observed.

This will help you begin a personal database of which you can refer back too. As your estimations get better, you can begin to compare what you believe at the shooter to what you believe mid range, and beyond so you start to create a complete picture.

 

[Jethro21]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Thanks, I appreciate it very much

 

[bolt56]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Good read guys. Bolt56

 

[tlg308]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jethro21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I am reading this correctly, I should be first working to make an accurate read at the gun (I do not have electronics to measure this so it is all estimation), then begin to pay more attention to wind throughout the flight path, especially (as it appears in the figure LL posted) the last 1/3.

Close?</div></div> That's what I've learned from the guys placing in the top 3-5 at the 1000yd match I go to. Seems to work for them and is starting to help with my shooting.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tlg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jethro21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I am reading this correctly, I should be first working to make an accurate read at the gun (I do not have electronics to measure this so it is all estimation), then begin to pay more attention to wind throughout the flight path, especially (as it appears in the figure LL posted) the last 1/3.

Close?</div></div> That's what I've learned from the guys placing in the top 3-5 at the 1000yd match I go to. Seems to work for them and is starting to help with my shooting. </div></div>

Can you give an example or details of how what you have learned from the quys is helping you?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I try to reduce things to their simplest. I get mixed results, too.

Seen in its complexity, it is very hard to make determinations like 'most'. Seen in simplest terms (honestly), picking out a single factor is overly simplistic.

Both Lowlight and Charles (Sterling) are on similar, and I think right, tracks.

The bigger factors slug it out there somewhere around midrange. Velocity decay weights the effects of a constant wind to favor increasing deflection per millisecond of flight as speed decays. Time of flight duration weights the effect of instantaneous wind as having more effect toward the muzzle end of the trajectory.

The problems are that winds are seldom constant, and that instantaneous winds usually get (decreasingly) offset by other, subsequent instantaneous winds of different directions and magnitudes.

If I had to pick a single point on the trajectory, it would be a compromise; and I think the point of max ordinate is a good point to define as that compromise.

It represents the point I consider as the equilibrium velocity between muzzle and terminal velocities; a break-even point, if you will, where decresing velocity overtakes instantaneous deflections at the muzzle as a dominant factor.

If one has to choose a single point; this is mine, and why. But my 'real' answer is that one point is too few.

Both Frank and Charles start by estimating dope, then firing to get input for dope refinement. That works, but it also says that the calc is more important than the 'ranging shot'.

In essence it reduces the precision of the calc to something not all that unlike the precision of a SWAG (Scientific Wild Assed Guess).

Their methods both depend on having something I call a Zero/Zero Zero, which I define as a Zero based on dead calm conditions; which I fervently beleve are nothing more than a plausible fiction. They should exist, but they damned near never really do.

Me, I take the SWAG, and make the ranging shot. Both mathods require a re-correlation with the ground-truth reality, but I suspect my method puts fire on the target a tad quicker.

You all each get to choose your preferred method, and who's to really say which method s more 'proper'?

Greg

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I'm one of those who believe there is no such thing as "no wind"

or if there is, it's rarer then hen's teeth.

Having said that, I do believe you can get a "no wind zero".

It's simple as shooting a group, ploting the wind value from each shot, and ADJUSTING for wind for each shot. Record everything, then after your shooting session you can deduct you wind changes you made and come up with a "no wind zero".

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

We have an indoor 100 yard range here... No wind zero, LOL

Besides the groups we are shooting even to zero in wind are so small, the wind deviation seen is only a problem if we were shooting bench rest.

When you have a 1/2" 1 hole group at 100 yards, you're no wind zero is pretty much set, you aren't gonna plot something that tight when all the rounds go in one hole and are touching each other.

If you (we) were shooting 2" groups at 100 yards, ya, I would say plotting a zero would be applicable, but 1/2" ... not so much.

 

[tlg308]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?



Can you give an example or details of how what you have learned from the quys is helping you?[/quote]

Well when I attended my first 1000 yd match I had no clue in guesstimating wind or which of the two wind flags to pay attention to (750 or 500). So I tried to shoot for the constant wind value or flag angle at the 500yd one and took what I got and shot a 230/250 2X(w/ .308). I started talking with the the older(wiser) guys that had be doing this for a while and they said in every other circumstance feel the wind at the gun, watch for the constant, and adjust for the farther flag "last 1/3". They were also nice enough to let me in on a little secret and said at our range the farthest flag is "false" meaning it blows but has no effect, kind of weird but I guess its true. So after some practice I applied what they said, adjusted for the 500yd flag and shot a 248/250 10X with the .308 and same load as before. I've applied what they have said in my practice(bangin steel) at a different place where the wind isnt "false" and the wind in the last 1/3ish to the target had more of an effect than adjusting for wind 1/2 way to the target and I had more hits when adjusting for the farther wind. Hope this example helps.

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I believe every range has it`s own unique personality....
i.e.
wind tunnels
berm drafts
tree cover
ground make-up...sand..black dirt,grass,water pockets...
all provide an effect on bullets ride to the target.
And as mentioned above the time it takes the bullet to get there....
bill larson

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?




So, you're adjusting for mid-range then, is that right?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

No, they said they are doping at the rifle and then reconciling it with the image downrange.

ALL wind reading begins at the shooter, there is no way around this, as this is how our senses work. As soon as you step out of your car you begin to analyze the wind. A decision on the wind is made, probably before you look through the scope in fact. What you see, downrange, in the scope is just there to verify what your body has already determined to be the right answer.

There is physically no way to read the wind to within 1 MPH 500+ Yards away, it's invisible, and it changes too often. If you read what he said based on the "experienced" shooters, they read the constants at the gun, and then adjust for the conditions they see downrange, still based off the reading at the shooter.

We all drive a car, and know what 55 MPH is, but that doesn't' mean we can "look" at the cars on a highway and estimate their speed. We can get close, we can get lucky, but to be consistent we need more input. Our eyes alone can and will deceive us... ask any Magician, so we require more details.

Establishing a base reading at the shooter is Mission # 1, then we adjust based on the changes we "see" downrange, this fine tuning could not happen without first getting a reading that is verifiable to within 1 MPH. The only place for that is at the shooter.

Now, we completely understand all ranges are different have different characteristics that effect the shot in their own unique way. As in the reference to the "false" flag at the target. The berms, barriers, and TERRAIN, play a key role in any shooter's successful estimate, so clearly no one size fits all. Still further we understand that Max Ord will have an effect, especially for shots beyond 600m, before then, Mid Range wind reading is less important, why Time Of Flight, and the bullet's height above the ground. The time of flight is too short to matter inside 600m... so doping at the shooter, conscious of any terrain features that might funnel and increase the wind's effect is a better way of doing business.

800 yards, 1000 yards on a nice manicured range, Mid Range, Max Ord is all important. Knowing where the bullet will be and what those terms mean and how they effect the drift is vital. But you cannot simply say, dope based on the wind at Mid Range... you have no real idea of what it is, at least not to 1 MPH without first establishing a base line. Mirage is not always present, mirage is not always helpful and because of terrain wind flags on some ranges can "lie" due to eddies and currents that won't effect the bullet but will effect the flags.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I'll take that a little further and state all firing begins at the rifle; nevertheless, I think the guy can answer without you coming to his aid. I don't think he needs an interpreter. His adjustment, for whatever his impression of wind at the rifle, appears, from what he said, to be made on the wind's effect at mid range. But, since I'm not sure this is his current methodology I thought I'd beg the question.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

He answered pretty clear, just don't think you liked his answer as it mirrored mine, much more so than saying "wind at mid range".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I started talking with the the older(wiser) guys that had be doing this for a while and <span style="font-weight: bold">they said in every other circumstance feel the wind at the gun, watch for the constant, and adjust for the farther flag "last 1/3".</span> They were also nice enough to let me in on a little secret and said at our range the farthest flag is "false" meaning it blows but has no effect, kind of weird but I guess its true.</div></div>

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Only if you put words in his mouth. And, BTW, all of our senses initially describe the individual and immediate perspective on any and all matter of things, not just wind.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only if you put words in his mouth. And, BTW, all of our senses initially describe the individual and immediate perspective on any and all matter of things, not just wind.</div></div>

Exactly my point,

When explaining to a new, inexperienced shooter about "mid range" wind without stressing the importance of the reading at the shooter is a poor way of describing things. It's a lessons in frustration without first giving them a solid foundation on what it takes to establish a "mid range" call...

And I put no words in his mouth, in fact I quoted his...

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Frank , when entering a dope into your PDA using Patagonia do you use the multi wind part of the program and input a max ord projection in the mid part of that area as there are 3 distances one can use ? example from shooter - 400 10mph - 500 -700 14mph
700-1000 10mph
This is asumming a 10 mph wind constant through the entire range

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank , when entering a dope into your PDA using Patagonia do you use the multi wind part of the program and input a max ord projection in the mid part of that area as there are 3 distances one can use ? example from shooter - 400 10mph - 500 -700 14mph
700-1000 10mph </div></div>

That was basically it, I think the last set of numbers I added 1 to 2 MPH for the extra TOF. So basically, 10 MPH at the shooter, 14 MPH Max Ord and 12 MPH final leg.

When I had the situation in the mountains were the dope used was far less than the wind read, (.3 used vs .7 projected) I turned on the multiple winds and in effect did that very thing to work. The mountains were actually blocking the mid range and final 1/3 while showing a 1/4 value at the shooter. So you had to essentially zero out the last two legs.

Patagonia using the Multiple wind feature in that way got it right. (except in reverse because it used less)

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only if you put words in his mouth. And, BTW, all of our senses initially describe the individual and immediate perspective on any and all matter of things, not just wind.</div></div>

Exactly my point,

When explaining to a new, inexperienced shooter about "mid range" wind without stressing the importance of the reading at the shooter is a poor way of describing things. It's a lessons in frustration without first giving them a solid foundation on what it takes to establish a "mid range" call...

And I put no words in his mouth, in fact I quoted his... </div></div>

What it takes to make a good mid range call is an understanding for the velocity and direction of wind at mid range. Stressing the importance of wind at the firing point/shooter may be useful but it is quite possible that it is not always important. In fact, accounting for wind at the shooter which is opposite mid range can really cause a shooter to be frustrated.

Speaking of explaining things, there is a 20 shot exercise whereby the shooter will shoot 5 shot groups at a scorable target: one group with no wind adjustment, one with adjustment for wind exclusively at shooter, one with wind at target, and one with wind at mid range. This exercise can be expanded to weigh or average winds too. Keeping a record of scores will indicate the corollary any-one's notion for how to do it will play out.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

So in the field not on a manicured range with range flags, how do you get a consistent wind call at mid range without first doping it at you?

It's a guess, plain and simple and wind needs to be called as close to 1 mph as humanly possible.

When faced with multiple condition, varying terrain, varying times of the day to include night, varying weather, how do you estimate speed consistently across all these variations?

Of course you observe down range conditions, looking for changes in velocity and direction, but you start by reading the prevailing winds at you. This is the only road to consistency and success.

I shoot in the wind, I shoot in the field and on a well known high power range the experience is not the same and your technique is too limiting to succeed on both.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So in the field not on a manicured range with range flags, how do you get a consistent wind call at mid range without first doping it at you?

It's a guess, plain and simple and wind needs to be called as close to 1 mph as humanly possible.

When faced with multiple condition, varying terrain, varying times of the day to include night, varying weather, how do you estimate speed consistently across all these variations?

Of course you observe down range conditions, looking for changes in velocity and direction, but you start by reading the prevailing winds at you. This is the only road to consistency and success.

I shoot in the wind, I shoot in the field and on a well known high power range the experience is not the same and your technique is too limiting to succeed on both. </div></div>

It's not the only road; and, assessment of wind at the shooter is not always the way to success, even when it's the only wind which can be discerned accurately.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So in the field not on a manicured range with range flags, how do you get a consistent wind call at mid range without first doping it at you? </div></div>

That makes sense to me but assuming you are on a square range and the wind at the shooter is 10mph and you make your best guess that at the 1,000 yrd line it is still 10mph...is there a general rule of thumb at the max ordinate point (which i appreciate is different depending on bullet etc) but just trying to understand whether more experienced shooters would add 1, 2, 3, 4mph etc at max ordinate assuming all else at ground level was equal downrange ?

Thx

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> how do you get a consistent wind call at mid range without first doping it at you?</div></div>

Mirage and/or observing the grass, trees, brush, etc blowing around at mid range (or any where else you want a reading.

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Common sense says do the fundimentals first -at the the shooter where you can judge speed and direction more precisly then assess the possibles in the field and combine the assessment .
The thing is on the square range it can be quite different than a non range situation which may have many more obsticles to account for .I have mentioned before a spot I shoot and if you dont leave the shooting position to get the wind direction it is difficult to assess the direction and strength -I have to know the direction before setting up and then I assess tree tips while there - the mirage area is to short .
Each place must be handled differently because all are different but most will allow wind at the shooter first -its common shooting sense -mid range wind can only be guessed at best and doesnt always have mirage so a start with an accurate call at the shooter has to be the best strategy surely most of the time

 

[wIg SpLiTtEr]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Thanks for the very informative post yall!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

We have debated this already,

Mirage is not always present and in places like mountains and valley are not always where you want it too be.

If you are shooting across from one ridge line to another, there can be a 500 ft drop between you and the valley floor... between the two ridge line there will not be any mirage, any blowing grass, (besides in this thread we established the bullet can be more than 6m above the ground, it does not fly along the grass) Trees, okay... what about if there are no trees.

You need at least a 4 Degree F difference between the air layers to have mirage, so any difference in air layer temp is between the ground and air, not AIR & AIR.

Here is an great example,

At the ASC Competition here is a view, what is "Mid range" for you to dope ... ?

Where between you and the target do you think the mirage would be ? Or are you gonna just estimate it off the trees in front of you at 50 yards ?

You need a prevailing wind reading first, otherwise, that invisible wind you think you will find ain't gonna be helping you.

Plenty of grass and tress, just none where you want it, when you consider the bullet is flying up, then down...

The tree beyond the silo is about 1000 yards away, so while mirage might hover along the ground, up in the air where the bullet flies, as in MAX ORD, is well above the ground.

Certainly you'll see the tree tops blowing but knowing the difference between 8 MPH and 10 MPH... please enlighten us all.

Remember a 1 MPH wind will blow a 175gr SMK about 10" at a 1000 yards, so you think you can dope to within 1 MPH cold by using Mirage in these cases, or estimating what the trees are doing without a point of reference.

There is a reason Kestrels are Night Vision Capable ... cause we haven't' even begun to talk about night time shooting.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Lowlight, so as to get beyond the debate, with the two photos you provided as possible examples, after using near and far wind markers as best as possible, what do you advocate as the next best step(s) to estimate the wind velocity/direction in the large and relatively empty space in between to make your final windage call?

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Don't engage sterling in debate, it gives him a reason to post the same shit over and over. If on a square range with time, opportunity, and a spotting scope set at mid range that's wonderful. Some of us shoot in high wind, with lofty max ordinates in play, and we might foresee situations or circumstances where there isn't a spotting scope handy and time might be critical.

I'd rather dope it based on my position, confirm it with a kestrel, and build a bit more or less favor in based on what I see downrange, if anything. Listen to LL, don't encourage sterling.

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

LawnMM Sterling Shooter knows his stuff have no doubt ,although he fails to communicate about other possibilities concerning calling wind as Lowlights example shows but his advice is still solid for many situations and advice worth utilizing .

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't engage sterling in debate, it gives him a reason to post the same shit over and over. If on a square range with time, opportunity, and a spotting scope set at mid range that's wonderful. Some of us shoot in high wind, with lofty max ordinates in play, and we might foresee situations or circumstances where there isn't a spotting scope handy and time might be critical.

I'd rather dope it based on my position, confirm it with a kestrel, and build a bit more or less favor in based on what I see downrange, if anything. Listen to LL, don't encourage sterling. </div></div>

LawnMM
So, you are refering to marksmanship basics as the same shit over and over. Well. perhaps then you might want to just bypass this "shit" as you call it for topics more appealing to your taste.

All
Remember, wind has its greatest effect at mid range. Now if you can't discern the velocity and direction of wind at mid range it does not change the facts about the matter. So, if not knowing the wind at mid range you then choose to substitute the wind at the firing point, you're making an assumption that this wind will have a useful corollary to the mid range wind. If you're lucky it may; however, if the wind at mid range was blowing in the opposite direction of the wind at the firing point, you're assumption would not only be wrong but would yield a result worse than no wind correction at all.

One more thing in regard to LawnMM's statement about time, opportunity, and spotting scopes, again, circumstances do not change facts. Thing is, time and spotting scopes are not essential to good shooting. What's essential to good shooting is knowledge of what's important to properly execute the firing tasks, knowing the effects of gravity, drag, and wind and weather, and practice to fully develop motor memory skills. While the spotting scope is an aid to understanding wind direction and velocity, wind can also be appraised by its effects on the environment.

The bottom-line here is that you do what you want to do or have the resources to do. If it is working out for you stick with it; however, if you are not satisfied with the results of your techniques you might want to try something else. As I stated in an earlier post, I had a hodgepodge of wind reading techniques, including reading wind at my firing point when it seemed only that was a sure thing; and, these were good enough to earn me an HM LR rating with a 308 and irons. Nevertheless, when I became aware of the USAMU's technique on the matter from teaching the SDM course, I tried it out for myself and have come to appreciate it over others. So far, I've gotten my best results with this mid range wind reading technique on the range and in the field. My overall thought is that if you can't discern mid range wind there may not be an alternative solution other than a guess, hopefully based on past experience and practice in the matter.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I find it ODD that these post seem to always turn into a "Sterling Shooter" bashing fest.

His post or guidence seem to Mirror that of the USAMU therefore it seems that we are contradicting what they teach.

Sticking with the topic, the AMU teaches reading wind at mid range. Not just on "flat" targets, but across the spectum of shooting, be it High Power, SDM, Long Range or SNIPING.

Kind of hard to dispute success, who has won more International Sniper Matches then the USAMU?

Of course we can't accurately estimate wind to 1 MOA regardless of where we estimate it. No one can. Nor can we estimate wind (regardless of what range) at ground level, and get an accurate reading at 15 yards or 25 yards or where ever the ordinate of the trajectory. We can only estimate.

We can only guess, and with about 60 years of experience in the game, I think the AMU would be the ones I would go to for where the "best guess method" would be.

Personaly I like mirage, sure there may be times when you can't see mirage, but those times are rarer then hens teeth. I've shot in humid jungles, high desert of 29 Palms, sub zero arctic, and at 10,000 ft of the Big Horns. Faint as it may be, its there, air moves I don't care if its ground level or 30,000 feet, you also have temp changes in that moving air. Some times its easy to see and sometimes its near impossible, but its there.

Mirage per se wont give you velocity, you have to get a base point for your time and location. Using other wind indicators get your best guess wind estimate then compare it to the mirage, then you can get pretty good estimates of changes from mirage.

And then you'll find, if you focus your scope on mid range (not the target) you can get a good average of what the wind is doing across the range between you and the target.

But getting nit picky about not being able to est wind to the ninth degree accomplishes nothing. We can't do it, no one can, all we can do is make our best guess based on the conditions and indicators we have.

Of course we can't find wind indicators (excluding mirage if you can see it) from one mountain top to the next looking at nothing. But you can get close looking at tree 'n such movement in the valleys and side hills. You're not going to be exact but you have to have someting to base your estimate on.

All you can do is make your best guess, and prepare for a quick follow up shot.

As LL said, a mile or two error in wind velocity will get you off 10 inches or more, that is the reason I don't hunt long range. 10+ inch errer could cause you to wound an elk, leaving it to wonder off to die an agonating death, just not worth it to me. Seems stalking would be a better option.

But as SS keeps preaching (rightly so) this is all out the window if the fundamentals arn't there.

Any way pick your experts, personally I've had good luck with the AMU's guidence.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

As a side note, to get an ideal of what wind does in the mountains, observe smoke from Forrest Fires. I live in the Black Hills and we have more then are share of forrest fires.

I like to set back with a scope and observe the movement of smoke over mountains and valleys.

Sure the heat from the fire affects the winds, but you still get an ideal what happens to wind and it crosses a ridge and dips into a valley.

Compare the velocity of the smoke with the movement of tree tops and limbs.

You can't see clear air, but the smoke moves the same way, taking temps into account.

Anyway, smoke from fires gives you an idea of what wind is doing in the mountains, ridges and valleys.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

All you guys do is talk about, how youre right and follow Army AMU doctrine, but you fail to explain to anyone reading how to "actually" do it and get successful at it.

A method for training is what people are looking for, and why you get bashed. You assume everyone has been shooting as long as you have.

Saying the AMU teaches mid range is one thing, ok what is the method so a new inexperienced shooter can understand and estimate what they are seeing?

Further, you still don't seem to understand the difference in reading wind beyond 600m and inside 600m, or around terrain, you only talk from a competitive standpoint 800m to 1000.

Not everyone trains as if every shot has time and opportunity, that is another assumption.

Fundamentals are awesome, but saying mid range wind reading is the most effective throws fundamental basics out the window. The fundamental basic is All wind reading begins at the shooter, because you can read it to within 1MPH there. It's the science department, mid range is the Art department when it comes to teaching.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

What you say is not true. The how-to-do-it is to simply read wind at mid range. If the topic were how do you read wind, we could discuss mirage and the physical effects of wind within a velocity range.

Your premise that reading wind should begin at the shooter is an opinion which is not shared by all; and, it is certainly not assumed fundamental. Many talented shooters believe the shooter should first attempt to read wind at mid range. I am one of those shooters.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you say is simply not true. The how-to-do-it is to simply read it at mid range. If the topic were how do you read wind, we could discuss mirage and the physical effects of wind within a velocity range. Instead of starting with wind at the shooter, the shooter should start with wind at mid range.</div></div>

Genius,

Everyone should follow this advice...

Attention LR Shooters, throw your kestrels away, they are unnecessary... As per SS.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Once again you are attempting to change your argument. You do this when you can't argue the facts. I've got no problem with wind meters, I have one. It is an aid to good shooting; but, its appeal is limited, since it does not help me to better understand mid range wind in real time.

 

[Austan]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

With regard to the 2 pictures posted above by LL, could you LL and/or SS give a somewhat detailed step by step on how you would read the wind in those two situations. Measure at the shooter, sure, but then how do you determine the wind at max ord/ mid range? Do you have some type of scale you use? If the wind is say 10mph at the shooter does that correlate to say 15mph at max ord if max ord is a certain distance off the ground, say 100ft, or 20mph if at 500ft over a valley? Is there a formula for this or is this the part where it's all art?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Sterling Can,

I have shot that match about 6 times and came in second at least 3 of those, so let me detail it...

And sterling Wind meters are best used calibrating the "shooter" to understanding the wind, and has anything but limited appeal. It's what confirms your guess,

Also how would you calculate a Mid Range wind call on a 300 yard target ? What is your process for determining the 300 yard hold ?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Austan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With regard to the 2 pictures posted above by LL, could you LL and/or SS give a somewhat detailed step by step on how you would read the wind in those two situations. Measure at the shooter, sure, but then how do you determine the wind at max ord/ mid range? Do you have some type of scale you use? If the wind is say 10mph at the shooter does that correlate to say 15mph at max ord if max ord is a certain distance off the ground, say 100ft, or 20mph if at 500ft over a valley? Is there a formula for this or is this the part where it's all art? </div></div>

The problem here is that even when you know the wind at the shooter, if wind down range cannot be discerned by mirage or effect, you can not do anything but take a guess as what to do, since the bullet is not effected by wind at the shooter as much as it is by mid range wind. On the other hand, if you can discern mid range wind velocity and direction, attempting to be more accurate in your assessment of it by reading wind at the shooter may be a strategy which could yield a good result if it appears the wind at the shooter is characteristic of the wind at mid range.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Sterling if I pay for your Air Fare and Hotel will you shoot the SHC next month ?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Yes, if you can reverse the damage to my eyes from glaucoma.