Advanced Marksmanship Wind read- More important at gun or target?

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Once a bullet begins to move off path due wind, even at the shooter, it stays off ...

Over distance, especially in heavy wind, wind at the shooter is absolutely important because it's a dumb bullet. Once blown off, it stays off and because wind at the shooter gives the longest time of flight, it has the largest potential drift.

Wind at Mid Range, when Max Ord comes into effect, is important because the wind velocity increases with increased height above the line of sight. So wind measured at the shooter for a 1000 yard shot that reads 8 MPH might be 10 MPH at max odd... so the increase in velocity has increased drift.

Inside 600m max ord is less of a factor, and height above line of sight is significantly less, and TOF is significantly shorter, so mid range wind has less of an appeal, due to reduced effect. Wind at the shooter is more important because it has 100% of the TOF to act on the bullet.

It's pretty simple to take a program such as LoadBase 3 and turn on the multiple wind features and see the difference the different effects have... Wind Zone 1, at the shooter, is still the most important, Wind Zone 2, Mid Range, is only so if you increase the velocity for increased wind speed.

All things being equal, Wind at the Shooter, has the greatest cumulative effect because of TOF. This is why Wind Cheater cartridges work, they fly flatter, less height for Max Ord, and they fly faster, Less TOF... hence they cheat the wind. All that together points to the wind at the shooter being the first in priority followed by Mid Range and Terrain.

 

[Austan]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For example if you are shooting 1000m and read a 10MPH wind at the shooter, doping it for 12MPH might be a smarter way to handle it. Depending on the velocity and gusts, a 2 to 4 MPH is pretty easy to estimate for a bullet that will go 6M above the LOS. </div></div>

This touches on my question a little bit. Now say in the second picture it looks like you guys are firing from 100-150ft above the field. Would you then still figure a 10mph wind to be 12mph for the 1000 yd shot or would you increase that to say 15mph wind read because the bullet is flying that much higher above the ground? Is it still just a guess then correction or is there a "known" method of figuring this based on wind speed at the shooter and the elevation of the bullet flight above the ground.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Austan

It depends on the wind speed...

What the gusts and flows are doing, if the gusts are average 4 MPH you can add 4 MPH to do the speed, if the wind is light, 3MPH at the shooter, it may only increase to 3.5 MPH in the gusts, so make the Mid Range 4 MPH.

This is why you want to track ebb and flow with the kestrel so you know what the wind is doing. We have seen it increase as much as 6MPH at Rifles Only walking up the stairs of the tower. Each deck is about 12FT off the ground, so we were able to track changes by looking at the wind speed at the base, then moving up reading the wind on the first deck, and then going up to the 3rd level reading the wind there. Average is about 2 to 4 MPH in a 10 MPH+ wind. Under 10, figure 1/2 that ... but conditions certainly dictate.

The best method to use the kestrel is to look around and estimate the wind. Saying I think the wind is 6 MPH and then turn on the kestrel and confirm. From there, you want to note the high and lows as this is an important element to the overall read.

Wind does not flow in a straight line, and does not flow at one speed. It's waves in the ocean with ebbs and flow, gusts and lows. You want the prevailing wind average and then you can adjust downrange based on those readings. If you are looking at the target and the mirage suddenly lays over you know you are in a gust, if it boils, you know you are in a low, so you adjust accordingly.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LawnMM
So, you are refering to marksmanship basics as the same shit over and over. Well. perhaps then you might want to just bypass this "shit" as you call it for topics more appealing to your taste.</div></div>

I'm referring to your cookie cutter answer for any question that anybody ever asks about reading wind. Its always the same, it never allows for different circumstances, situations, or time constraints, and is most often thrown out with a highfalutin tone.

I tried getting you to clarify this once, though I doubt you remember. Not everyone owns, or has access to, a spotting scope. Some that have access to them, frequently don't bring them, because its easy to spot your own hits and misses assuming you can drive the rifle properly. I am such a person. I don't claim to be anything amazing, but I can spot my own hits and misses.

So I think to myself, "Self, lets indulge Sterling this once." I asked, hypothetically, if mid-range mirage, grass/tree movement, whatever, is the be all end all to wind reading...how might one adjust their rifle scope in such a situation? Would you adjust it for mirage and the like at mid range, with the target out of focus and very likely the victim of parallax? Or would you focus on the target? Spotting scope is out of the picture.

The reply was as cookie cutter as it always is, "I would focus my spotting scope at mid range."

You're obviously an intelligent human being Sterling. I don't doubt you probably have a refined skillset. What pisses me off, and I'm not alone, is how you refuse to concede that somewhere in the wide world of shooting situations and scenarios, there might be one where a spotting scope focused at mid range isn't the best answer. Perhaps you are engaging multiple targets over multiple distances under a time constraint. Perhaps it isn't on a square range, but uphill, or downhill, or across a valley. Perhaps you need to get a string of shots off in rapid succession, as in competition, or perhaps a military situation, who knows.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One more thing in regard to LawnMM's statement about time, opportunity, and spotting scopes, again, circumstances do not change facts. Thing is, time and spotting scopes are not essential to good shooting. What's essential to good shooting is knowledge of what's important to properly execute the firing tasks, knowing the effects of gravity, drag, and wind and weather, and practice to fully develop motor memory skills. While the spotting scope is an aid to understanding wind direction and velocity, wind can also be appraised by its effects on the environment. </div></div>

ap·praise
verb
transitive verb
: to set a value on : estimate the amount of

Also known as a guess. As for the "Mid Range has the greatest effect" argument, I wholeheartedly disagree. If you can't see how a tenth mil deflection at the muzzle, over 1000 yards deflects more than zero deflection at muzzle but the same tenth starting at the 500 yard mark on its way to 1000...I don't know what to say. Its a pretty simple concept. I'm going to take my own advice now and not engage you in further debate, I've heard the responses before.

 

[Austan]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Thank you LL for the insight.

 

[highandtotheright]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Austan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With regard to the 2 pictures posted above by LL, could you LL and/or SS give a somewhat detailed step by step on how you would read the wind in those two situations. Measure at the shooter, sure, but then how do you determine the wind at max ord/ mid range? Do you have some type of scale you use? If the wind is say 10mph at the shooter does that correlate to say 15mph at max ord if max ord is a certain distance off the ground, say 100ft, or 20mph if at 500ft over a valley? Is there a formula for this or is this the part where it's all art? </div></div>

The problem here is that even when you know the wind at the shooter, if wind down range cannot be discerned by mirage or effect, you can not do anything but take a guess as what to do, since the bullet is not effected by wind at the shooter as much as it is by mid range wind. On the other hand, if you can discern mid range wind velocity and direction, attempting to be more accurate in your assessment of it by reading wind at the shooter may be a strategy which could yield a good result if it appears the wind at the shooter is characteristic of the wind at mid range. </div></div>

I want to say that is a excellent point and thank you to all you vets with your priceless info. I'm pushing my 300 wm to the 1000-1200 yd.... Sooooo many thoughts and how to's. I was always tought that the wind down range was the most dominant,"read your mirrage" or rather try to...
Thanks again to ALL you Vets.
H

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight:

All you guys do is talk about, how youre right and follow Army AMU doctrine, but you fail to explain to anyone reading how to "actually" do it and get successful at it.</div></div>

I thought that is way I did.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraigwy:

Of course we can't find wind indicators (excluding mirage if you can see it) from one mountain top to the next looking at nothing. But you can get close looking at tree 'n such movement in the valleys and side hills. You're not going to be exact but you have to have something to base your estimate on.

All you can do is make your best guess, and prepare for a quick follow up shot.</div></div>

No method is perfect, we just pick a method that works best for us and make our best wild ass guess and hope for the best.

No one is saying we can get an accurate messurement of wind at the max ordinate mid range or two thirds of the distance to the target. We don't really know what the wind is doing 25 feet or so above the line of sight, but we have to make some sort of judgement or estimation. I'm saying, though not perfect we can get some sort of reading from the activity of grass, trees, mirage, dust, etc at mid range.

Perfect???? No, but nor is just pulling a reading out of thin air. Activitiy at mid range is going to give us a better ideal of what's happening then activity at the muzzle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

So you think the variations 600 yards away are so great that measuring the wind at the shooter is not worth the effort?

That have an exact MPH at the shooter is less important than simply jumping into an estimate down range, that is a better way of going about calling the wind?

So using a kestrel at the shooter, for even 2 minutes to gauge the ebb and flow of the wind pattern will not help you get your estimate at mid range, even knowing that the wind at the shooter maybe gusting 2 MPH of which you read an observe with a wind meter won't help a shooter, especially a new shooter, establish a verified reading of which to judge the down range activity.

Youve repeatedly said you'd rather look at the grass moving, the leaves blowing or the dust flying, then pull out a kestrel and read that the wind is averaging 6 MPH with gusts to 7 at the shooter, so for max ord I'm gonna use 8 MPH for my call? Cause a tree limb moving 600 yards away is telling you more than a kestrel at the shooter?

Well obviously you can't argue with that logic.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LawnMM
So, you are refering to marksmanship basics as the same shit over and over. Well. perhaps then you might want to just bypass this "shit" as you call it for topics more appealing to your taste.</div></div>

I'm referring to your cookie cutter answer for any question that anybody ever asks about reading wind. Its always the same, it never allows for different circumstances, situations, or time constraints, and is most often thrown out with a highfalutin tone.

I tried getting you to clarify this once, though I doubt you remember. Not everyone owns, or has access to, a spotting scope. Some that have access to them, frequently don't bring them, because its easy to spot your own hits and misses assuming you can drive the rifle properly. I am such a person. I don't claim to be anything amazing, but I can spot my own hits and misses.

So I think to myself, "Self, lets indulge Sterling this once." I asked, hypothetically, if mid-range mirage, grass/tree movement, whatever, is the be all end all to wind reading...how might one adjust their rifle scope in such a situation? Would you adjust it for mirage and the like at mid range, with the target out of focus and very likely the victim of parallax? Or would you focus on the target? Spotting scope is out of the picture.

The reply was as cookie cutter as it always is, "I would focus my spotting scope at mid range."

You're obviously an intelligent human being Sterling. I don't doubt you probably have a refined skillset. What pisses me off, and I'm not alone, is how you refuse to concede that somewhere in the wide world of shooting situations and scenarios, there might be one where a spotting scope focused at mid range isn't the best answer. Perhaps you are engaging multiple targets over multiple distances under a time constraint. Perhaps it isn't on a square range, but uphill, or downhill, or across a valley. Perhaps you need to get a string of shots off in rapid succession, as in competition, or perhaps a military situation, who knows.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One more thing in regard to LawnMM's statement about time, opportunity, and spotting scopes, again, circumstances do not change facts. Thing is, time and spotting scopes are not essential to good shooting. What's essential to good shooting is knowledge of what's important to properly execute the firing tasks, knowing the effects of gravity, drag, and wind and weather, and practice to fully develop motor memory skills. While the spotting scope is an aid to understanding wind direction and velocity, wind can also be appraised by its effects on the environment. </div></div>

ap·praise
verb
transitive verb
: to set a value on : estimate the amount of

Also known as a guess. As for the "Mid Range has the greatest effect" argument, I wholeheartedly disagree. If you can't see how a tenth mil deflection at the muzzle, over 1000 yards deflects more than zero deflection at muzzle but the same tenth starting at the 500 yard mark on its way to 1000...I don't know what to say. Its a pretty simple concept. I'm going to take my own advice now and not engage you in further debate, I've heard the responses before.</div></div>

Once again, circumstances or conditions do not change facts. Believe what you want. It's only cookie cutter when folks like you, who have misguided notions on the matter, re-visit the topic. My comments here are not of my own device but are the words on the matter from the USAMU. The SDM curriculum states," wind will have the most effect on the projectile at the mid range point". I accept, as well as practice what they say as their instruction in all matters of marksmanship is proven effective.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Do many ballistic apps even tell you what max ord is in terms of distance and height !

Even LB3 doesn't allow you to plot a graph of it yet you can plot just about every other graph known to man. I guess if it was the over-riding issue they all would ??

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Saying the wind will have the most effect at the mid range point. Doesn't say read the wind at the mid range point, it just says the effect is greater there, nothing in that statement advocates reading the wind there.

Who knows how old that data is, especially since wind is being spoken of in terms of TOF flight now.

The AMU SDM program is geared towards a lower common denomiator than most other programs. So it can easily be 10 or more years behind the curve.

T.J.
You can change the Zero range in LB3 to the target range to get the max ord readout. As well I believe FFS has a max ord utility. Otherwise use the half the distance plus the 10% for the location and data in you range card.

 

[J-ROD]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Newbie Alert...be gentle.

FWIW, all of the authors in "The Wind Book for Rifle Shooters" agree that the wind near you has the most effect; mid-range to target guess is used to fine tune. The wind speed has to be significantly higher as the bullet approaches the target to make a substantial difference.
Makes sense in my ME head.

Nice pics LL! Any shooter here need a "caddy" for the course..lol.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Thanks LL, was playing with that feature earlier. It is nice to have but not exactly something I can put to use when a quick engagement is called for but i will compare it to reality when time isn't a concern.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saying the wind will have the most effect at the mid range point. Doesn't say read the wind at the mid range point, it just says the effect is greater there, nothing in that statement advocates reading the wind there.

</div></div>

Well, actually it does say that with nstruction given in how the spotting scope is adjusted to read "mid range". At any rate, don't be silly, obviously, you are not going to give more weight to wind at any point where it has a less effect on ballistic trajectory.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

So the SDM shooter is using a Spotting scope or a Low Power, no adjusting optic ? Pretty sure SDM doctrine is more run & gun as opposed to stationary. Are they even issuing an SDM shooter a Spotter ?

And, again, people are giving more weight now to TOF as opposed to Mid Range, When the wind velocity is low and more so equal across the board, wind at the shooter has a greater effect, as well when the Max Ord is not at distance, wind at the shooter is more important.

You never answered the 300 yard question, let alone anything inside 600 yards, where max ord and mid range is low to the ground, along with TOF being too short to matter. Only beyond 600 does Mid Range have the potential for greater effect... not inside.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Here is an image from the training...

I notice only the instructor has a spotter... the Soldier being taught has nothing to assist in mid range wind reading and I highly doubt they are going to be effective using an 4x ACOG as a wind reading tool beyond whatever mirage they can muster on the square range.

As well, what is the max effective range they teaching for that system... 600m, so with a bullet going as fast as it does, what is the "max ord" of the 5.56 at a target that is say, 350m out ? Not high enough to be effected by the wind gradient, so doping the shot at the shooters seems to be a much smarter method.

Repeating Mid Range over and over leaves a lot to be desired especially when you just repeated doctrine meant for an M4 and an ACOG.

Let's face it, the Army has a history of getting things wrong, repeatedly, especially when it comes to environmental conditions...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">International Rifle Marksmanship Guide, 1980 Edition

Page 67 Effects of the Weather...

F. Humidity and Rain
To understand the effects of humidity, the shooter must realize that the higher the humidity, the denser the air.... The heavier air presents more resistance to the flight of the bullet. </div></div>

Again, wrong in all the military manuals, (there is actually one that has it right) so seeing a pattern here, and nothing from you to change our mind to the contrary, it's pretty reasonable to believe given your statements, lack of understanding on a lot of things you try to pretend you have a command of, that if they handed you a script that was clearly written wrong, you are unable or unwilling to correct it. Because, you teach what they give you. There are other errors to be found, rules of thumb that no longer work or apply that continue to be taught that don't take into account changes from 40 years ago to today.

PS, the paragraph above was written by me to you in 2011, so again, nothing has changed.

Try striking out more, maybe get Applied Ballistics and read about the flexibility needed, especially how terrain can apply, and more so, about TOF and the fact that even from Max Ord, the bullet is not being effected as much, despite slowing down, it has an effect, just not a complete one.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So using a kestrel at the shooter, for even 2 minutes to gauge the ebb and flow of the wind pattern will not help you get your estimate at mid range, even knowing that the wind at the shooter maybe gusting 2 MPH of which you read an observe with a wind meter won't help a shooter, especially a new shooter, establish a verified reading of which to judge the down range activity.

Youve repeatedly said you'd rather look at the grass moving, the leaves blowing or the dust flying, then pull out a kestrel and read that the wind is averaging 6 MPH with gusts to 7 at the shooter, so for max ord I'm gonna use 8 MPH for my call? Cause a tree limb moving 600 yards away is telling you more than a kestrel at the shooter?</div></div>

No sir, a reading at the firing point may or may not have any relation to what the wind is doing down range.

A prefect example can be found in Nancy Tompkins' book "Prone and Long-Range Rifle shooting" it's copy writed so I wont scan and post the picture but on page 213 of the 2006 addition is a picture of range flags. The flag at the firing line shows what looks like a full value wind from left to right. The other four flags in the picture show varying winds averaging full value, from right to left.

As to SDM or anyone else not using spotting scopes....so what, they are not necessary to determine conditions down range. If we can see a little bitty target, say an antelope down range, lets say 600 yards or more, if you can see it with your rifle scope, then why can't you see the effects the wind has on brush, grass, etc pretty much anywhere between you and the critter.

Even iron sights, I've take my service rifle PD hunting just for kicks. If I can see a little PD I can see wind indicators.

Spotting scopes are nice, but being old and lazy I don't pack them hunting. I have a moderatly price Weaver 4X on my Model 70s for hunting. Cheap as they are, they are still clear enough that I can get mirage on Wyoming praries where I hunt.

I like mirage best, but we all know that mirage is useless when the wind is about 5 Min or more.

Anyway, I'm not trying to fight with anyone, we all have different ideals, things that work for one may or may not work for others.

A lot has to do with our training. Army snipers get different training then Marine snipers therefore have different methods, not meaning either is wrong, just different.

An example is "kestrel's" and other wind reading devices. I don't like them, many do. I have one in my shooting stool, every time I go to play with it the dern batteries are dead.

Anyone reading many of my post know I'm not a fan of batteries or battery operated devices in shooting or land crusing. I don't trust them. I don't use computers or iphones on the range, I've never had a pencil let me down. Same with GPSs, I've had them crater, never had a map and compass crater.

Lots of people use GPSs with zero problems and trust them, Like I said, we are all different, not necessary wrong, just different.

If we were all on the same sheet of music there would be nothing to talk about, and we wouldn't get any enjoyment from these forums.

Kind of like Spin Drift, I don't shoot good enough nor far enough that it comes into play for me, but I enjoy the heck out of reading the post on spin drift.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Flags going the wrong direction on a square range are not a result of cross purpose prevailing winds but localized back flow from berms... Most of the time they can be completely discounted because they are not effecting the flight of the bullet.

Sterling is talking to SDM using Spotters to read mid range, with an ACOG with no ability to change focus how do you focus on the mirage at Mid Range, instead it will only focus on the mirage at the target. We are talking a fixed power, fixed parallax, no focus 4x.

Tell you what Kraig, break the Top 15 in the match next month and I will refund 100% of your entry fee plus $200 cash for being wrong. There is a goal to reach for ... but I am convinced your methods are less than success under almost any condition.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tell you what Kraig, break the Top 15 in the match next month and I will refund 100% of your entry fee plus $200 cash for being wrong.</div></div>

I signed up for that match, but when Zak asked for volenteers, I decided against shooting and told Zak I would work as a volenteer.

The reason being heath. I had a bad bout of what I thought was COPD and didn't think I could handle the phyical part, and wanted to work as a volenteer to see if maybe I could handle it for future matches.

A bit later I had stints put in. Turns out the blood vain giving me problems was the one sending ox. to the heart. So basicly it was like a lung transplant. I would have been able to handle the phyical portion.

Anyway, I'll be in Douglas, not as a shooter but as a volenteer.

It's your match, and if time (your time) premits we can play. I'll admit I'm not the shooter most of your competitiors are, but I'll add, I'm better at getting "my" data at mid range then at the firing line. Or should I say it worked for me when I was involved in long range shooting.

Like I said, I'm old (65 in July) but not too old to learn from others.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

We can definitely play, plenty of opportunity to see what works.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tell you what Kraig, break the Top 15 in the match next month and I will refund 100% of your entry fee plus $200 cash for being wrong.</div></div>

I signed up for that match, but when Zak asked for volenteers, I decided against shooting and told Zak I would work as a volenteer.

The reason being heath. I had a bad bout of what I thought was COPD and didn't think I could handle the phyical part, and wanted to work as a volenteer to see if maybe I could handle it for future matches.

A bit later I had stints put in. Turns out the blood vain giving me problems was the one sending ox. to the heart. So basicly it was like a lung transplant. I would have been able to handle the phyical portion.

Anyway, I'll be in Douglas, not as a shooter but as a volenteer.

It's your match, and if time (your time) premits we can play. I'll admit I'm not the shooter most of your competitiors are, but I'll add, I'm better at getting "my" data at mid range then at the firing line. Or should I say it worked for me when I was involved in long range shooting.

Like I said, I'm old (65 in July) <span style="color: #FF6666">but not too old to learn from others.</span> </div></div>

This may be the most important statement in this thread. Tried and true approaches can be very useful, particularly for emphasizing fundamentals to beginning shooters. However, a strictly dogmatic approach can also be a hindrance to incorporating new information as ballistics and shooting science becomes more advanced.

I would respectfully like to request that Lowlight and Kraig share their findings and opinions on what wind reading methodologies worked best here if they have the chance to shoot in the match next month.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would respectfully like to request that Lowlight and Kraig share their findings and opinions on what wind reading methodologies worked best here if they have the chance to shoot in the match next month</div></div>

I have not problem with that. But if you are testing "methods" it would be better if each shooter, using their different equipment, try both methods and compare "their" different results.

That way you are evaluating the method and not shooter and equipment.

My Long range guns are heavy and as metioned, I'm lazy and I'm not going to pack them around. If we are gonna play, I'm gonna use my wife's M-70 243, it shoots, but its light.

IF you're betting, bet on LL.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

No, no betting at all. Don't really care about that aspect. It's simply that after reading this thread, I'd just like to hear both of your thoughts regarding the respective wind reading approaches post-shooting, so that I can learn something.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My comments here are not of my own device but are the words on the matter from the USAMU. The SDM curriculum states," wind will have the most effect on the projectile at the mid range point". I accept, as well as practice what they say as their instruction in all matters of marksmanship is proven effective. </div></div>

I'll bet if your map said the world was flat you'd keep repeating it as gospel even in the presence of a guy that had sailed all the way around.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My comments here are not of my own device but are the words on the matter from the USAMU. The SDM curriculum states," wind will have the most effect on the projectile at the mid range point". I accept, as well as practice what they say as their instruction in all matters of marksmanship is proven effective. </div></div>

I'll bet if your map said the world was flat you'd keep repeating it as gospel even in the presence of a guy that had sailed all the way around.</div></div>

Rather than blindly accepting any notion of how-to-do-it, why not be skeptical of all and experiment. After all, as you are a hobbyist in this arena you don't need to take anyone's word as gospel on this matter. Just get out and have some fun with it. I've described what works for me and the source of my education on the matter (folks who have actually been around the world) for one purpose, to indicate that not all shooters who have experience with this stuff accept the notion that wind reading begins with wind at the shooter. If I can become aware of what the wind is doing at mid range by what means are at hand to become aware, that's the wind I apply to my formula, period, in the field or on the range, for any target distance where wind favor is essential for a good hit. BTW, since any adjustment for wind is made at the gun the bullet's course is set before it even clears the barrel. Don't confuse this with a need to know what the wind is at the shooter to counter for the wind's effect at the firing point. For example, if the wind at mid range is opposite wind at the firing point your adjustment based on wind at the firing point would double your disappointment. But again, don't take my word, experiment with it.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Sterling have you noticed a wind downrange maintaining an "opposite" direction from the prevailing winds ?

If the winds are out of the East at 5 MPH, what do you think is happening to cause a "spike" 500 yards away from your position to go "west" especially on a Range ?

Let's bring this back to your familiar grounds, the square range. Please explain to anyone reading this how a wind blows "opposite" in this case. I won't assume you are talking about a single wind flag down the side of the range, but something more important. I would like a detailed explanation on your wind goes opposite in this case.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

The first thing the instructors did when I went to sniper school at the Benning School for Boys, was to pop smoke an each yard line from 100 to 900 meters.

The smoke went every which way. Why I don't know, I'm not a weather person.

Same thing when I went to the NGB MTUs Coaches Clinic.

I got the same results for the NG sniper schools I put on.

Again I don't know why. I have noticed as wind velocity increases it seems to become constant (direction wise).

To me that seems to be 8 - 12 mph (depending where you shoot).

That's why I like mirage, it seems to average the wind out. Once the mirage gets to about 5 moa or so, its difficult to determine velocity from mirage, so I go to wind indicators.

Wind fluxuates more at lower velocities (direction wise). That's why I rather shoot in moderate wind.

Back to forrest fires. Watching smoke during forrest fires is an enlightening experience. Smoke follows the wind, goes all over the place in calmer winds. Kind of straighten out a bit as the winds pick up. When you don't have much it will cross a ridge, get in a gully and twirl and then go every which way.

Seeing that crap, knowing the wind without smoke is doing the same thing makes me want to go to pisol shooting.

Anyway, its simple to test regardless what range you use, pop some some at different yardage between you and the target and see what happens.

While you're at it. Use smoke at mid range, and at your max. ord. See what happens to the smoke as it reaches the ord at mid range and max. ordiate. Just to see what happens.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

great post , i have a question.

how do you deal with different wind conditions across the same LOS ?

condition 1 (slower downrange)
wind between 0-800y is blowing 10 mph from 3 to 9 oclock
wind between 1000-1600y is blowing 5mph from 3 to 9 oclock

condition 2 (faster downrange)
wind between 0-800y is blowing 5 mph from 3 to 9
wind between 1000-1600y is blowing 10 mph from 3 to 9

condtion 3 (45 degree change of direction)
wind between 0-800y is blowing 10 mph from 3 to 9
wind between 1000-1600y is blowing 10 mph from 4.5 to 10.5 oclock (45 degree angle)

condition 4 (180 degree change of direction)
wind between 0-800y is blowing 5 mph from 3 to 9
wind between 1000-1600y is blowing 5 mph from 9 to 3

how do you interpret your ballisitic programs output and what's your final correction/solution?

 

[taliv]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

what I've noticed traveling around a good bit is that the wind is quite a bit different in different areas. Where I've shot in TX, CO, OK, (and I'm generalizing here) the wind seems to blow in the same direction all day long, across the whole range, and pretty dang hard, varying primarily in intensity. Not so much in TN; we'll put flags on each side of the range every 100 yards from 1000 to the pits and it's rare to have any 2 them blowing in the same direction; a condition I refer to as "squirrely". KY and parts of OH are like this. Near the coasts where I've shot, NC, FL mostly, the wind tends to blow fairly constant the same direction across the whole range, but will change direction couple times / day. In TN hills, i have a 60 sec video i took (though i seem to have misplaced it now) that shows wind switching from full right to full left and back. I haven't witnessed anything like that in TX or OK. Point being, when shooting in some places, direction is obvious and you're mostly just trying to guess the speed. In other places, you're very lucky to call the direction right.

One of the more interesting things I've seen is on Viale at Perry, when the wind is blowing from the W or NW, you can watch mirage across the 150 firing points and it will be running E from about points 20+ but W from 15 and under. I think it has to do with the tree line on the west side of the range.

anyway, it's kind of an interesting discussion but maybe talking past each other a bit. particularly on the topic of estimating wind at the shooter first. I don't know how it's possible NOT to do that. I mean, I can't walk from my car to the front door of walmart without estimating the wind. It's just something I'm constantly doing. I suspect others are accounting for it subconsciously at a minimum

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how do you deal with different wind conditions across the same LOS</div></div>

Mirage.

In most of your examples, the max wind is in the area where you can use mirage. Once the wind reaches a certain velocity (for me, that would be 8 - 12 MPH) it's pretty constant direction wise. It will fluxuate in speed but it'll pretty much be going the same direction.

At lower speeds, 3-5 mph, it drives me nuts, cause if flops back and forth.

Now a point about mirage. I found this out the hard way. If you focus your scope beyond the target, it reverses the mirage.

I found this out the hardway when I attended the NGB MTU Coaching Course.

I called the wind right, but it was oppisite what it should have been. Had I focused the scope on my (shooters) side of the target I'd had been on.

Felt like an idiot.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

What you see is turbulent flow which is usually localized and in many cases can be discounted, especially when it is just one wind flag moving in the opposite direction.

Of course in stronger winds, especially when you are in the mountains you'll see changes, I have posted the video trailer were we did the lesson with smoke and it snaps the direction, however I will also note, we read the wind at the shooter and target and using both reading the wind hold necessary was "less" then what was read on the ground and that was because the terrain blocks a large portion of the wind during the bullets flights to the target.

Anecdotal stories about anomalous happenings are too easy to find and just as easy to discount as one off events.

Basically when you look at what the wind is doing around obstacles there are some truisms that again, are isolated especially when shooting on a range, but it is important to understand what you are looking at.

Terrain matters, and each location has its own set of circumstances.

Note the turbulence effects as illustrated below:

If the range has berms or trees lining it, along the edges you can see here why a flag would blow the opposite direction, but we are not shooting down the edges, we are shooting across the center. The more out from the edges, the less the eddies will effect things.

Further more it depends on the time of year, and the temperature differences between the air and ground. The more thermal activity the more turbulence which can account for updrafts and variations higher up. This is what you see when your elevation changes.

The heat rising draws the current back on themselves, again, a local phenomena, and not necessarily one that will effect the shot.

Even during these effects I find with a solid hold the rifle will group without much issues, rarely is there a stringing effect cause by this.

Prevailing winds have a greater effect then that cause by localized obstacles like trees and berms dotting a range.

Here note the smoke in the video and understand while the reading was 8MPH + the hold was .3 Mils at 800 yards across this center. The smoke was placed at "mid range" however the bullet flight was blocked by the wind at the shooter and at the target. Circumstances dictate, which is why we believe the bullet.

I mean look at the video and just around the 1 mInute mark you can see the wind flag behind me, the shots were taken at 800 yards on paper and the group still measured less than 3" at distance. I held center and did not adjust for the wind, despite the blown there was no stringing as one would suspect.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JSA8OPDOYrI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The smoke section is around the 2:45 mark, note the group on steel even with such an erratic wind at mid range. About 1/2 MOA from 800 yards with an 18.5" 308 rifle.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

All,

The picture posted earlier on this thread of the MRI on the spotting scope was taken at the 600 yard line of the Easley Range at Ft. Benning. My few times on this range wind was rarely over 3 to 4 MPH. At any rate, students in photo were getting some feel for the importance of favoring for wind at this distance in order to get a good hit. Since instructors with less than perfect vision may have difficulty seeing spotting discs at 600 yards quickly enough to do their job supporting 3 shooters on the firing line, the spotting scope is handy for them. In most cases students are able to judge wind by its effects. I suspect the reason reading mirage with the spotting scope appears in classroom instruction but not as succinctly on the range is that time constraints and application realities necessitate only an overview about the use of the scope to read mirage.

 

[Country]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I got to agree with Lowlight on this matter. I measure the wind at the gun and then try my best to estimate what is going on at mid to long range and work out an average wind speed to put in the trajectory calculation at the mid range point I was not taught this by anyone it just happens as a natural process that seems to make sense to me . I work in isolation so there is never any assistance except forums .
It is refreshing to know that I got it fairly right on my own.
I am sure that other methods work and there is always more than one way to skin a cat but what Lowlight is saying makes sense to me .

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got to agree with Lowlight on this matter. I measure the wind at the gun and then try my best to estimate what is going on at mid to long range and work out an average wind speed to put in the trajectory calculation at the mid range point I was not taught this by anyone it just happens as a natural process that seems to make sense to me . I work in isolation so there is never any assistance except forums .
It is refreshing to know that I got it fairly right on my own.
I am sure that other methods work and there is always more than one way to skin a cat but what Lowlight is saying makes sense to me . </div></div>

Let's say you are shooting at 300 yards, the wind at your firing point is 3 to 9 o'clock at 10 MPH, the wind at mid range is 9 to 3 o'clock at 10 MPH, and the wind at the target is 3 to 9 o'clock at 10 MPH. What would your favor be for a real good hit? Pick any gun from your rack.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Again, a completely stupid question, but I have an answer... Are you shitting us, a full value spike in the wind at is only a 100 yards wide going completely the opposite of the prevailing wind... friggin impossible.

I have it thanks to LB3,

What is yours Sterling, i have screen shots to demonstrate using a Ballistic Computer, because I would have the presence to read...

Try doing it for real like to 1000 yards and give us your answer.

This idea it can spike like that is completely foolish, wind does not flow that way, it can't just change direction on itself and blow both left and right at 10MPH unless an outside force is acting on it, even then it would be impossible for it to be full value in both direction exactly across from each other.

Shows a complete lack of understanding of the wind. Forget the stupid 100 yard winds.

I will save the solution image until you give me the solution for this using a 175gr SMK at 2650fps.. I have it for both 1000 yards and 300 LOL as dumb as that is.

I have an answer, WHAT IS YOURS ... and explain to everyone how the winds are opposite each other at Full Value spread only a few hundred yards from each other....

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I actually have seen this condition, at Camp Atterberry. I disregarded wind at firing point and wind at target, shot a 99 and something while 35 other shooters did something else.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

You saw a single wind flag pointing the wrong way.... is that what you are saying ?

So according to your logic, the two gusts of wind going one way were cancelled by one gust going the opposite...

So what was the answer you used ?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Where did you see me post that I saw a single wind flag? What makes you think I even used a wind flag or flags to determine wind? I never said that. I also never said wind was gusting. You always read into things to spin your way. Answer for my load, left 3 minutes.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

If I can play, based on info given, I'd go 1 1/5 min left. Thats with my M1A w/ half min clicks.

------------------------------------------------

One thing none of us has mentioned is the upwind/down wind principal.

Besides the vertical arc, the bullet has a horazonal arc.

When shooting into he wind you adjust your sights (or hold) into the wind. You have an arc where as the bullet starts at an angle actually away from the target, Somewhere just past mid range, as the wind pushes the bullet, the arc changes and has more of an angle or starts down range to the target.

Looking at a clock, you can understand this changes the effect of the wind on the bullet much the same way (but not amount) as a 1/2 - 1/4 value wind.

This was the way it was explained to my as the reason to use mid range wind.

Hope that makes sence.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

You know, once I was shooting at ASC in the mountains, it was raining all weekend and at the end of the day, a fog bank rolled in and obscured the targets forcing us to stop shooting.

So I told every one I could still shoot, target was about 700 yard away behind the clouds, and I fired into the mist hitting the target to much amazement from the crowd gathered. Nobody else could see the target, yet I hit it ...

The point is,

You're example is meaningless... at 300 yard way, it probably didn't matter where you read the wind, you have no way knowing what others did, and could have very well over thought the process causing the issue.

Still you have yet to explain how you had a 10 MPH Wind at 100 going left to right, a 10 MPH wind at 200 yards going Right to Left and a wind at 300 yards going Left to Right...

How did you measure that, at each distances, did you jut estimate it visually ? and could you have been wrong about the actual conditions at any yard line ?

Finally, I will bet money wind flags were present.

Nobody is buying your BS no matter how cheap you try to sell it or how you can tell us a story about one time in band camp, when you put a flute up your ass and fart the national anthem in perfect tune.

David Tubbs new DTR reticle accounts for vertical wind deflection, I have one of his scopes here with it. The left side of the holdover reticle is different from the right... in fact taken to another level, if the wind if from the right he uses a left hand twist barrel, if the wind is from the left he uses a right hand twist barrel. He has two identical rifle set up for across the course shooting designed to be used based on the wind direction. I have sat with him on several occasions and discussed this, not to mention his literature for the DTR Scope is pages and pages worth of information on the subject.

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, once I was shooting at ASC in the mountains, it was raining all weekend and at the end of the day, a fog bank rolled in and obscured the targets forcing us to stop shooting.

<span style="color: #FF0000">So I told every one I could still shoot, target was about 700 yard away behind the clouds, and I fired into the mist hitting the target to much amazement from the crowd gathered. Nobody else could see the target, yet I hit it </span>...

The point is,

You're example is meaningless... at 300 yard way, it probably didn't matter where you read the wind, you have no way knowing what others did, and could have very well over thought the process causing the issue.

Still you have yet to explain how you had a 10 MPH Wind at 100 going left to right, a 10 MPH wind at 200 yards going Right to Left and a wind at 300 yards going Left to Right...

How did you measure that, at each distances, did you jut estimate it visually ? and could you have been wrong about the actual conditions at any yard line ?

Finally, I will bet money wind flags were present.

Nobody is buying your BS no matter how cheap you try to sell it or how you can tell us a story about one time in band camp, when you put a flute up your ass and fart the national anthem in perfect tune.

David Tubbs new DTR reticle accounts for vertical wind deflection, I have one of his scopes here with it. The left side of the holdover reticle is different from the right... in fact taken to another level, if the wind if from the right he uses a left hand twist barrel, if the wind is from the left he uses a right hand twist barrel. He has two identical rifle set up for across the course shooting designed to be used based on the wind direction. I have sat with him on several occasions and discussed this, not to mention his literature for the DTR Scope is pages and pages worth of information on the subject. </div></div>Lowlight voodoo -what kinda black magic does the boss employ ????

Stirling a very bad example as wind doesnt do that- 10 one way 10 the other and back again especially at 300 yards.

Wind must be first judged locally then at distance and a combined assumption made -it is what works-period

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, once I was shooting at ASC in the mountains, it was raining all weekend and at the end of the day, a fog bank rolled in and obscured the targets forcing us to stop shooting.

So I told every one I could still shoot, target was about 700 yard away behind the clouds, and I fired into the mist hitting the target to much amazement from the crowd gathered. Nobody else could see the target, yet I hit it ...

The point is,

You're example is meaningless... at 300 yard way, it probably didn't matter where you read the wind, you have no way knowing what others did, and could have very well over thought the process causing the issue.

Still you have yet to explain how you had a 10 MPH Wind at 100 going left to right, a 10 MPH wind at 200 yards going Right to Left and a wind at 300 yards going Left to Right...

How did you measure that, at each distances, did you jut estimate it visually ? and could you have been wrong about the actual conditions at any yard line ?

Finally, I will bet money wind flags were present.

Nobody is buying your BS no matter how cheap you try to sell it or how you can tell us a story about one time in band camp, when you put a flute up your ass and fart the national anthem in perfect tune.

David Tubbs new DTR reticle accounts for vertical wind deflection, I have one of his scopes here with it. The left side of the holdover reticle is different from the right... in fact taken to another level, if the wind if from the right he uses a left hand twist barrel, if the wind is from the left he uses a right hand twist barrel. He has two identical rifle set up for across the course shooting designed to be used based on the wind direction. I have sat with him on several occasions and discussed this, not to mention his literature for the DTR Scope is pages and pages worth of information on the subject. </div></div>

Well, there you go again, now you've introduced David Tubb, reticles, and more about wind flags. You also talk about the wind at 100 which is of your own making. No BS here, the question is an example of an experience I actually had. Only voodooo is you spinning any ideas which do not complement your notions. I'm still LOL from a few years ago when you commented on a picture of a shooter shooting prone. You said his position was all wrong. Turned out the shooter was 6 time National Trophy Service Rifle Champion Grant Singley. Then you revised your statement that it was an example of someone shooting good from a bad position.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

In context of tactical shooting it was a bad position, for service rifle competition it doesn't matter, you could shoot upside and if you scored a win someone would call it right. The point of questioning the position was that of one employed in combat.

People who have an IQ over 60 understood the context.

You still haven't explained how you had wind in multiple directions inside 300 ...

The DTR reticle statement was in response to Kraig, he mentioned dissimilar wind drift and vertical deviation. It wasnt meant for you as those concepts are clearly beyond your grasp.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Che,

There was a tiny powder shed between me and the hill with the target. While the target was still visible and I was behind the rifle waiting my turn, I milled the top of the shed to the target, then using my reticle I held on the shed roof line, the shot hit and I followed it up to the laughter of all, had to prove it wasn't a fluke.

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

that was sharp work Frank -its the little observations that can make the difference .This discussion is very good and I hope SS doesnt take offence as ones ego can be dented with these discussions .

I would like to say I think we should stop talking about what we do on a square range and talk about open field shooting where obsticles make a difference as does valleys, trees , dips ,and many other things that you encounter when in the feild .

With what StirlingShooter is saying about midrange estimates I cannot agree with as wind where possible must be accounted for as a whole where possible , you cannot discount any area that you can make a judgment call on be it here there or more over there .

I shot my spot at 860 yards yesterday -9-15mph when I arrived and checked on the way to the fireing position .
When I set up at my position which is made slightly leeward due to cover I had around 8-10mph -across the valley I shoot over the top of pine trees into a hill which block wind and can funnel it down the valley due to its shape and its ends that are open to either west or east ,the wind was from around 10oclock from my impact point .

The tress in the valley were showing about 10-13 mph I thought so I accounted for 13mph 1.2 mills -miss miss .
I should have looked a little to my right around the cover as the bigger pines were starting to whip around 15-18mph 1.5mill-1.8mills .Once I observed those I realized more so what was happening and made "some" hits - Targets 4 inch square and about 7inch square but with the gusty winds it wasnt easy an inch here and there to the sides was a bit frustrating .

Bottom line is I looked at the total range and some parts on that day gave me better info than others areas and distances with this strength and angle of wind .
To say youll get the best results from a middrange wind call "MAY" work for you on a square range but in the field it means squat as nothing stays the same .
My round is a .284 shehane 180gr berger around 2953fps
I have posted this video before of this range I shoot to illustrate what I am seeing when I shoot over the trees -its not great but if you go to the 5min 20 mark it shows the corridoor Im shooting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml8Zek22aNE&feature=channel

 

[Country]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Ok I will play . In that case the close and mid range is a cancel so I would mainly take notice of the target wind but again the only way " I" can quantify what may be happening at the longer range is by first measuring what is going on at the gun . Then I would see that the wind is opposite at mid range and about the same velocity so that's a cancel and the bullet would be about on target at 200 . That leaves mainly the target wind to consider for the last 100 . As the wind at the gun has slighly more effect over the whole range then I would correct for a 3 to 9 oclock 12 MPH wind at mid range and then adjust my hold with the windage hash marks if necessary as it is only 300 . If I was using my handheld ballistic calculator it allows entry of close mid a far range wind values so in that case for this rare event I would most likley just enter the 10 MPH 3 to 9 oclock value restrict the max range to 300 and select far range but mostly I just leave it on mid range . As I said before I am sure there is other ways to do it and I am not saying that this is the best or the only way . All I am saying is that what I have fallen into by just doing my own thing gells with what lowlight is saying . I don't always agree with him and I am not agreeing just to suck up to him lord knows he banned me once already , However it just makes sense to me to start my obeservations from the only wind I can measure . I am sure professional snipers have better systems and techniques and range shooting with flags all over the place is different to being in the field . I can see why people want to brow beat you Stirling Shooter . You think that your way is the only way.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

Country,

No in fact if you had noticed I stated that starting with a wind reading at the shooter is not the only way. It is LL that thinks there is only one way, beginning with wind at the shooter. I think the wind at mid range has the greatest effect and therefore it's the wind I go to first. I stated earlier a shooter who is not satisfied with the way they're doing it might want to try out reading at mid range. BTW, I don't care who anyone here agrees with. What would be the point of a forum when all participants agree on everything.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

I have never once said it is was the only way, however anyone who thinks they are judging the wind downrange without acknowledging the wind at the gun is lying, to everyone including themselves.

I have said, all things have to be considered and I clearly stated when shooting at distance I account for the Max Ord and wind Mid Range based on the reading taken at the shooter. I account for it all...

Art Department is everything downrange,rightly named because it is subjective, no two people see the same thing. The Science Department is at the shooter because it is the only wind you can verify with any certainty, to not understand that is to lead a new or inexperienced shooter astray.

I have also stated more than clearly, that as your experience grows, your ability to estimate the reading downrange grows. The more experience the further downrange your estimate will be accurate. Why because you have a frame of reference to work from. I have very little issue calling wind beyond 1500m, and I am absolutely certain you have never shot anything that far. For me I have spent weeks at a time shooting beyond 1000m out to 2000m. The focus was the first round hit, so trust me, wind matters.

Telling a person to go straight to a mid range reading is foolish, you have to establish a number and whether you want to admit it or not, you are basing that mid range reading on what YOU feel on your person every bit as much as what you think you see. it can be no other way. You can't successfully estimate the wind downrange without a library of what it is doing at you, in other words your guess had to start somewhere.

This is why you lose respect with every post Sterling, because you can't understand the most basic of differences. You can't separate iron sights from scopes, fixed 4x scopes from variables or spotters, square ranges from field shooting. While fundamentals may translate across disciplines, set up of the shot varies. What a person does slung up shooting a Palma match is not the same as what a person does engaging a UKD target at 9000ft in the mountains, especially sight unseen, cold on one might say. There are no sighters. The set up for the shot is different even though the firing task is the same. How you judge the wind on a square will vary from how you can judge the wind in the field, especially if you have never shot there before. People can learn the wind patterns of a square range, but if you have never set foot in the area, you can't expect the same results on the very first shot.

What you think you know and do with your 5.56 Service Rifle using iron sights is not the same as what I can do with my AX using a S&B 5-25x, this is why different matches have different rules for things like F Class, Open, F/TR, Palma, Service Rifle, Across the Course, moving to Combat ... if was all the same we would be shooting everyone for themselves, and not breaking the disciplines up into categories. The differences matter, its why target sizes in competitions vary across the platform.

 

[Gunfighting Inc]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

LL -
is there a way of sorting a thread so as to block the posts of selected individuals so I can more quickly glean the usable information without having to wade through the ego driven drivel of glaucoma commandoes?

My .02 = ALL wind matters, but those I know who are good at adjusting for it have developed an intuition from practice. That intuition began with learning to read wind at the shooter, and if necessary, temper that reading with their knowledge of how downrange terrain features add or subtract from it.

 

[goober]

Re: Wind read- More important at gun or target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reinman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL -
<span style="color: #FF0000">is there a way of sorting a thread so as to block the posts of selected individuals so I can more quickly glean the usable information without having to wade through the ego driven drivel of glaucoma commandoe</span>s?

My .02 = ALL wind matters, but those I know who are good at adjusting for it have developed an intuition from practice. That intuition began with learning to read wind at the shooter, and if necessary, temper that reading with their knowledge of how downrange terrain features add or subtract from it.
</div></div>Pretty obvious who you are refering to here and there is no need to take that attitude toward another member arguing his position even if you dont agree with him -we all like to go to bed feeling ok not negated and worthless as one would feel with your statement !