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Why are people quoting g1 BC when we're talking about BT bullets. It's 2024....get the shit correct.
What does all that mean? I know what BC means. Not g1 or BT
G1: the original BC calculation, made for round nose bullets like what youd see on a 30-40 krag or a levergun.What does all that mean? I know what BC means. Not g1 or BT
G1: the original BC calculation, made for round nose bullets like what youd see on a 30-40 krag or a levergun.
G7: a new BC calculation, made for pointy bullets, like the ones we shoot today.
BT: boat tail, a shape at the base of the bullet that improves BC a bit.
You start seeing the difference between G1 and G7 drag models at roughly 600yds, depending on the velocity and bullet. If you run a comparison between a G1 model out to 1000, vs a G7, you’ll see right away that the G1 model is noticeably-more optimistic.Well if ya put down G7 ...many think G1, (oh crap that's not very good!) and G1 is printed everywhere, on most boxes of bullets and has been for a very long time. Everyone knows G7 is the most used and correct for most modern VLD, boat tail bullets...past 1000yds. Up until then it makes little difference, G1 or G7.
But if you're shooting say 1600 or 2000 yds I'd be a bit skeptical if you were using G1 for your VLD type bullets. And you can always multiply the G1 by .51 to get close to the G7.
So...in order to let more people in on the discussion, who may be more familiar with G1, then G1 is fine with me...or G7. Neither will impress me, but isn't that what its all about.
Wasn't a technical, exact discussion of the ever changing BC of bullets, even taking into account twist rates, and every condition possible.You start seeing the difference between G1 and G7 drag models at roughly 600yds, depending on the velocity and bullet. If you run a comparison between a G1 model out to 1000, vs a G7, you’ll see right away that the G1 model is noticeably-more optimistic.
If there is doppler Radar track data for the particular bullet, then it doesn’t matter because you can just go with the Radar data and get extremely accurate drop and drift declarations.
You will also see that the advertised BCs for many bullets don’t match the Doppler track data, most of them being over-stated, with a few under-stated.
CPD/Duramags.Whose magazines do you all recommend? Magpul, ASC (works well for me in 223), C products, and slander are what I've found.
TIA
ASC. Elanders (and Alexander Arms branded Elanders) have been crap for me...Whose magazines do you all recommend? Magpul, ASC (works well for me in 223), C products, and slander are what I've found.
TIA
I am just finishing a 6.5 Grendel 18 inch. I am pretty excited to get out and shoot it. I never have a chance to shoot 1000 yards so I think I should be happy out to 600. I don’t hunt and if i did I am not sure how I would feel shooting something past 300 yards. Comparing the 6.8 to the 6.5 seems to have been beaten to death all over the internet. If I was planning on hunting Hogs or deer at medium range I would use my 6.8. But for shooting paper and steel out to 500 yards or so I’ll take the flatter trajectory of the 6.5. I think the 6arc has them both beat but we already have one in the family so I went Grendel.That sucks, I had big hopes of an AR15 based 18-20" that could stretch out to 1000 yards. Might instead build a 6.5 Creedmoor big frame AR. I'll be reloading for 6.5 Creedmoor anyways.
I plan to build a shorty after I finish my 18inch. I have been looking into a xm177 clone in 6,5 GrendelSo what you're telling me is I'm going to also need to build a short boy for 6.5G as well.
I agree with just building one and trying it. bear creek and cdc have bargains in 6.5. Sub 250 without bcg if you like it upgrade parts. Or just leave it as is. That’s what I am doing building a budget “FrankenGrendel” from left over parts and a budget upper. If it shoots well I may build another long barrel but def gonna build a 12.5.Well, I kind of glossed over the whole middle of this thread where people wanted to debate whether to choose a 6mm or 6.5mm Grendel, so maybe I missed relevant details. BUT - FFS, it's so cheap to build a new upper that anyone who actuaIlly cares to find out, instead of all this mental masturbation, could easily build both and decide which one they like better. You don't even need two sets of BCGs and mags; they're the same thing.
Personally, I currently have 6.5 Grendels in 12.5" and 18", and 6mm Grendel variants (243 LBC) in 12.5", 19", and 24", so I've got some pretty direct back to back comparisons between the two. And for those who don't know, the difference between a 6mm Grendel or 243 LBC and the 6mm ARC is .030" at the shoulder and less than 50 fps; they can pretty much be treated identically for mental masturbation forum purposes.
In my experience, the short 6.5 Grendel is excellent for a hunting rifle with some distance capabilities on steel; 700+ yards with a 123 ELD or 120 MB is pretty easy, and the 129gr ABLR is the perfect hunting bullet for an SBR Grendel.
Also in my experience, the 6mm variant is even more excellent at distance, and easier to hit with; higher velocity for less wind drift, better b.c., and easier to spot hits when all else is equal. (And they are pretty equal; both of these SBRs are the same weight and length, same stocks and triggers, same scopes, same bipod, etc; the primary difference between them is the bore size and bullet weight.) No, using light weight 6.5 bullets doesn't accomplish the same thing, at least at normal altitudes where most of us live and shoot; b.c. does matter, after all that's the saving grace of the 6.5 Grendel making it work better than something like a 110gr 300 Blackout at distance. I have not used the short 6mm on big game yet though, and feel the 6.5mm has the advantage there in regards to both weight and bullet selection for hunting.
In the 18"/19" length, I'll take the 6mm every day of the week. Only reason I got the 18" 6.5 Grendel was just to have a valid and informed comparison, but it rarely gets used, because for the one primary advantage of the bigger bore - hunting - I prefer the shorty 12.5". For target use (steel mostly, but paper, clays, water jugs, tannerite, whatever) the mid-sized 6mm is the better choice IMO, and is definitely easier to hit with when the unpredictable winds pick up in these mountain valleys. I shoot a lot of the 105-ish weight range of course, as that's where this round shines, but the 90gr TGK is an excellent choice too. Because of some geometrical differences, that 90 TGK is a better choice than the 90gr ELD, and can be pushed quite a bit faster because it can be seated a lot further out of the case. I shoot that one at 3,000 fps from the 19" rifle with Lever; my 18" Grendel won't match that speed even with the little 85gr HP.
My 24" 6mm is pretty easy to hit with at 1K. Not as easy as the 6.5 Creed bolt gun of course, but those are two very different things; apples and oranges. I don't have a good 6.5 Grendel comparison in the 24", but have never been much interested in a long 24" AR that shoots as slowly as the Grendel.
Both the 6mm and 6.5mm Grendels are still hampered somewhat by mags IMO, compared to 5.56 if one is shooting large quantities rapidly. I have samples of pretty much all the different magazine options, including some only intended for the 6.8 SPC (God rest it's soul), and while they do work and different brands have different advantages, I've never been particularly satisfied with the longer magazines compared to the dead nuts reliability of something like a 30rd 5.56 PMAG. I mostly use the shorter mags though (13-17rd depending on the mag) and several of those are pretty reliable.
A note on powders, since someone earlier in the thread thought these would use different powders: Lever is top dog for velocity in both of these rounds at the mid to heavy range of the bullet weights they're meant for. That means 123gr-130gr for the 6.5, and 90gr-110gr for the 6mm. CFE223 is the next closest, but doesn't behave as well either (Lever is generally milder mannered when approaching max, and usually gives best accuracy and consistency with the hottest loads). The third best powder for both cartridges IMO is 8208, with the advantage of being temp stable, but the disadvantage of giving up some velocity.
And NO, you won't "share components" between a 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Creedmoor, unless you're wanting to use lighter weight bullets in the Creedmoor. Most of us though would be looking at 123-ish gr for the Grendel and 140+ for the Creed for typical applications. Other than that, powder, primers, and brass are all different, as well as dies of course.
On the other hand, you can at least share bullets between a 6 ARC/Grendel and a 6mm Creedmoor, if one wanted to, with the 105-110gr range being pretty common to both. Personally though I went heavier in the 6 GT (112 MB, very long bullet) bolt gun and use 105s in the ARs.
In summary, I think the 12.5" SBR 6.5 Grendel is a great multi-purpose rifle with a lot more capability than most people realize for both hunting and distance shooting. For purely distance shooting, the short 6mm has the advantage IMO, but doesn't cover as many bases as well. In longer barrels though, at least for my applications, the 6mm variants have significant advantages. My shooting ranges a lot in altitude, with DA values between -2,000 and +8,000 ft, and often unpredictable winds shooting from one side of a valley to the other, so the advantages in b.c. and velocity of the 6mm carry more value than they might for other people.
Both of these have significant advantages over the 6.8 SPC too, which in my observation seems to be dying off unless you're within the small pond of the 6.8 forum. I can't see any good reason to choose that round any more, especially if one reloads and is interested in slinging long bullets at long distances. And even if one only shoots at short to medium distance, I think most people have started to realize the 6.5 Grendel covers those bases just fine; certainly the market seems to agree.
So to wrap up, IMO build both - a short (like 12.5") 6.5 Grendel, and a longer 18"-20" 6mm ARC. Get some CPD mags and some ASC stainless mags (for the longer OAL). See which one you like better and go from there; barrel and upper changes are easy and parts are relatively cheap for now.
Hope that helps.
I agree with just building one and trying it. bear creek and cdc have bargains in 6.5. Sub 250 without bcg if you like it upgrade parts. Or just leave it as is. That’s what I am doing building a budget “FrankenGrendel” from left over parts and a budget upper. If it shoots well I may build another long barrel but def gonna build a 12.5.
I’ve been thinking that as well when you look at rising 7.62x39 prices and ridiculous 5.45x39 prices.I too, glossed over the middle of the thread, but I dropped in to answer the thread title:
I would if I wanted an accurized AK platform in the current year. the conversion parts and magazines to make a short barrel AK with impressive reach are more available than they've ever been, and 6Arc doesn't take to the AK gas system as easily/well.
I know most on here are AR centric, but the AK fetishists among us deserve something nice once in a while
My favorite is old-school wood, but with a pic rail section that slides into the side mount. They retain zero very well, so built right you can have it as a display piece when not shooting and most will be none the wiser that it isn't a 5.45 KrinkI’ve been thinking that as well when you look at rising 7.62x39 prices and ridiculous 5.45x39 prices.
There are AK Grendel mags too, so you can built an AK around it from scratch and have a shorty that blows away the performance of every other AK cartridge without breaking a sweat. A 10.5” Grendel smokes 16.3” and 20” 7.62x39 rifles shooting the exact same bullet weight.
One of those newer AKs with the machined pivoting top rail/receiver cover and all the features of your choice would be sick, suppressed of course. You could Zenith-drag it, or do a 1990s-2000s build, a hybrid -100 series, whatever.
Congrats on the kill.Picked up a 6.5 grendel 18" upper from PSA and put it on top of a PSA lower that I assembled last year. Killed my first deer (doe) last week. With everything that I had read and understood....it was the right choice. Would I go with 6 ARC...maybe. But happy with my choice and with my current hunting for whitetails in VA.....it'll work. Was a 115 grain Barnes ammo. Also wanna say thanks for all the continuing sharing of knowledge and experience on this board. Appreciate it!
Thanks Bakwa...appreciate it! Doe was roughly broadside...maybe quartering towards me...aim point was shoulder...don't remember whether it was on the crease or not. Recovered the bullet on the same side of the hide as the entry wound. No pass through. I think the deer died due to lung filling up with blood because the joint was destroyed along with the "shock" was transferred to that shoulder which continued on....might have nicked the lungs....but I don't know. I didn't think to grab more pics of that...something I'll try to remember for next time. And it was only about 50 yards....so wasn't far at all. Thanks for the questions. Hope I answered em.Congrats on the kill.
Where was the shot placement?
And where did you recover the bullet from?
Just picked up 60 rounds from Schell’s last week , I have a 20” 1-8 BHW barrel with 150 rounds down it , and a 24” 1-8 BHW barrel never fired. I took it to an indoor range just to chrono them. 20” barrel shot about 2,625 and the 24” about 2725. The SD’s were extremely low , shot about 4 round out of each rifle, The rounds on out of each barrels were all within a few fps.Hornady 100gr ELD-VT just started showing up to online retailers.
SGAmmo 6.5 Grendel Hornady 100gr ELD-VT
I have tons of 5.56 blasters (dating back to 1987 when I started with an AR-15A2 Sporter II), 2 .308 AR-10s, and a .260 Rem LR-260 custom build from GAP as well. I’ve also owned 3 other .308s that I sold. Grendel kind of ruined AR-10s for me, mainly because of the bulk/weight penalties and not being able to spot your own hits easily, and then brass life with the .260 Rem. I lose primer pockets after 3 firings in the .260 Rem, unless I dial down the charge weight and end up with a really heavy Grendel basically.Any differences in buffers, springs, etc., when making the switch? Things to be aware of regarding gas port size?
@LRRPF52 is a huge fan of short barrels. FWIW, sir, your approach of one caliber has great appeal, even though I'll always have a few others for reasons. Alexander Arms needs to pay you. You've probably steered more people to the grendel than anyone with your very informative posts.
I'm leaning towards a 16 or 14.5 PW. Intermediate gas or mid gas? same same?
Basically I'm set up for 5.56 and wanting to see what all besides barrel, bolt, and mags needs to be considered.
Thanks in Advance
My Lilja 17.6” and my Criterion barrels from PF have SAAMI Grendel chambers with the compound throat, so that should help with long secant ogive alignment in the chamber.The one thing that is baffling to me is precision from this round. Some people are reporting really tight groups. Just amazes me because at the 2.245 COAL factory load the ogive is basically right at the case mouth. So you are way back from the lands . My rifles are both 264 LBC. So I’ll get it to a proper range soon and get some accuracy feedback. But It’s seems like a winner, and hand loads should just take it up to the next level
Rifle and Intermediate, respectively, every day and twice on sunday for me. If you take the little extra time it may require to get such a system running well it'll be hard to go back to mid gas.I'm leaning towards a 16 or 14.5 PW. Intermediate gas or mid gas? same same?
I would absolutely use it as a pig round. Small sample size of two last weekend and out of a 6.5 Creedmoor, but very impressed with the bullet performance. About a 3in exit wound at 200m.Obviously this is not a pig round.