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Would you get into 6.5 Grendel in 2024?
- Thread starter KCode
- Start date
Why are people quoting g1 BC when we're talking about BT bullets. It's 2024....get the shit correct.
Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting 3rd Edition - The Science of Accuracy
Exterior ballistics is a very mature science. Unfortunately, most shooters have not been able to take full advantage of this field of knowledge because it’s always been described in a highly technical language. In this book, author, champion shooter and Ballistician Bryan Litz breaks down the...
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This thread is like trying to explain differential equations to a toddler. Go educate yourself on the basics of long range shooting before you worry about anything else or waste any more money.
OP not to sh on your parade, you have been here 5 years. What’s the furthest you have shot, what are you looking to do? Shoot steel or kill stuff
G1: the original BC calculation, made for round nose bullets like what youd see on a 30-40 krag or a levergun.
G7: a new BC calculation, made for pointy bullets, like the ones we shoot today.
BT: boat tail, a shape at the base of the bullet that improves BC a bit.
Well if ya put down G7 ...many think G1, (oh crap that's not very good!) and G1 is printed everywhere, on most boxes of bullets and has been for a very long time. Everyone knows G7 is the most used and correct for most modern VLD, boat tail bullets...past 1000yds. Up until then it makes little difference, G1 or G7.
But if you're shooting say 1600 or 2000 yds I'd be a bit skeptical if you were using G1 for your VLD type bullets. And you can always multiply the G1 by .51 to get close to the G7.
So...in order to let more people in on the discussion, who may be more familiar with G1, then G1 is fine with me...or G7. Neither will impress me, but isn't that what its all about.
But if you're shooting say 1600 or 2000 yds I'd be a bit skeptical if you were using G1 for your VLD type bullets. And you can always multiply the G1 by .51 to get close to the G7.
So...in order to let more people in on the discussion, who may be more familiar with G1, then G1 is fine with me...or G7. Neither will impress me, but isn't that what its all about.
You start seeing the difference between G1 and G7 drag models at roughly 600yds, depending on the velocity and bullet. If you run a comparison between a G1 model out to 1000, vs a G7, you’ll see right away that the G1 model is noticeably-more optimistic.
If there is doppler Radar track data for the particular bullet, then it doesn’t matter because you can just go with the Radar data and get extremely accurate drop and drift declarations.
You will also see that the advertised BCs for many bullets don’t match the Doppler track data, most of them being over-stated, with a few under-stated.
Wasn't a technical, exact discussion of the ever changing BC of bullets, even taking into account twist rates, and every condition possible.
But for the novice, who doesn't have all the equipment, getting close to the target inside 1000 with what he's got. A chronograph, jbm ballistics calculator, rifle, scope, and some numbers on a box of bullets. G1 and G7 in this case. He can get on target in a few shots, if not first shot hit.
So I looked it up on the JBM Ballistics calculator.
Picked Hornady 147 hr ELDM at 2700 fps
Something close to 6.5 CM
The ballistics calculator in this case gave the exact same drop at 1000yds of 29.6 MOA for both G1 of .697 and G7 .351
Is either number exact...no, but they will both get you close, inside 1000 yds.
It really makes a difference past that, but it's dependent on BC and muzzle velocity, as to where the G1 and G7 part more drastically.
People have been shooting long range long before chronographs and ballistics calculators, with blackpowder and lead.
With those really high BC bullets, the differences shrink for sure between G1 and G7, as do they at higher altitude.
147gr ELD-M G1 BC track via Hornady, .697 G1, 2695fps mv standard atmospheric conditions
1000yds 8.6 mils drop 1577fps, 811ft-lbs
Same bullet using same program with G7 drag model, .351 BC G7
1000yds 8.5 mils drop (this is not normal to see a more optimistic result when going to the G7 model)
Same bullet through Hornady’s doppler program shows the reality:
1000yds 8.7 mils drop 1476fps, 711 ft-lbs
So both the published G1 and G7 models Hornady lists are more optimistic than their own Doppler program shows the actual bullet path, but not by much.
I found similar things with the 6mm bullets. The 6.5mm 107gr Sierra Match King using Bryan Litz BCs does really well compared to the Hornady Doppler data for the 103-108gr 6mms, enough so that for most people, there would be very minimal practical benefits to the 6mm unless in competition where you want every edge you can get with wind drift. The 6mm definitely wins in the drift dept, but only by 0.2 mils from 500-800yds, with a respectable 0.5 mils at 1k.
6mm ARC 24” barrel AR-15
108gr ELD-M 6mm at 2700fps, sea level, SA, doppler data
500yds 2.8 mils drop, 1 mil drift
600yds 3.9 / 1.3
700yds 5.1/ 1.6
800yds 6.5/ 1.9
900yds 8.0/ 2.2
1000yds 9.8/ 2.5
6.5mm Grendel 24” barrel
107gr SMK at 2750fps, G7 .230
500yds 2.9 mils drop, 1.2 mils drift (G1 data is the same at 500yds)
600yds 4.0/ 1.5
700yds 5.3/ 1.8
800yds 6.8/ 2.1
900yds 8.4/ 2.5
1000yds 10.4, 3.0 (G1 shows 10.3/2.9 here)
Hodgdon’s shows 2817fps for the 107gr on 8208XBR at 49,500psi for 6.5 Grendel.
700yds 5.0/ 1.7
800yds 6.4/ 2.0
900yds 7.9/ 2.4
1000yd 9.7/ 2.8
Once I saw these numbers, my plans for a 6mm got shelved. Yes, there are advantages, but they are much closer than people think, with more velocity available for Grendel at lower chamber pressures when shooting the same bullet weights. If someone updated the 105-110gr weight class of 6.5mm with some higher BCs, what would that do?
147gr ELD-M G1 BC track via Hornady, .697 G1, 2695fps mv standard atmospheric conditions
1000yds 8.6 mils drop 1577fps, 811ft-lbs
Same bullet using same program with G7 drag model, .351 BC G7
1000yds 8.5 mils drop (this is not normal to see a more optimistic result when going to the G7 model)
Same bullet through Hornady’s doppler program shows the reality:
1000yds 8.7 mils drop 1476fps, 711 ft-lbs
So both the published G1 and G7 models Hornady lists are more optimistic than their own Doppler program shows the actual bullet path, but not by much.
I found similar things with the 6mm bullets. The 6.5mm 107gr Sierra Match King using Bryan Litz BCs does really well compared to the Hornady Doppler data for the 103-108gr 6mms, enough so that for most people, there would be very minimal practical benefits to the 6mm unless in competition where you want every edge you can get with wind drift. The 6mm definitely wins in the drift dept, but only by 0.2 mils from 500-800yds, with a respectable 0.5 mils at 1k.
6mm ARC 24” barrel AR-15
108gr ELD-M 6mm at 2700fps, sea level, SA, doppler data
500yds 2.8 mils drop, 1 mil drift
600yds 3.9 / 1.3
700yds 5.1/ 1.6
800yds 6.5/ 1.9
900yds 8.0/ 2.2
1000yds 9.8/ 2.5
6.5mm Grendel 24” barrel
107gr SMK at 2750fps, G7 .230
500yds 2.9 mils drop, 1.2 mils drift (G1 data is the same at 500yds)
600yds 4.0/ 1.5
700yds 5.3/ 1.8
800yds 6.8/ 2.1
900yds 8.4/ 2.5
1000yds 10.4, 3.0 (G1 shows 10.3/2.9 here)
Hodgdon’s shows 2817fps for the 107gr on 8208XBR at 49,500psi for 6.5 Grendel.
700yds 5.0/ 1.7
800yds 6.4/ 2.0
900yds 7.9/ 2.4
1000yd 9.7/ 2.8
Once I saw these numbers, my plans for a 6mm got shelved. Yes, there are advantages, but they are much closer than people think, with more velocity available for Grendel at lower chamber pressures when shooting the same bullet weights. If someone updated the 105-110gr weight class of 6.5mm with some higher BCs, what would that do?
Whose magazines do you all recommend? Magpul, ASC (works well for me in 223), C products, and slander are what I've found.
TIA
TIA
ASC. Elanders (and Alexander Arms branded Elanders) have been crap for me...
About 95% of my Grendel mags are ASC from over a ten year+ period. In every bit the manner we tune our rifles, I take whatever time necessary to tune/deburr/smooth all of the feed edges, as well as drop the feed height of end of mags by a sixteenth or so, to remove any impediments to proper feeding. That’s worked across a handful of different barrels/extensions/feed cones from Satern, JP, Proof, Wilson Combat, Lilja and some custom barrels. Bit of your time and attention will pay in the long run.
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Well, I kind of glossed over the whole middle of this thread where people wanted to debate whether to choose a 6mm or 6.5mm Grendel, so maybe I missed relevant details. BUT - FFS, it's so cheap to build a new upper that anyone who actuaIlly cares to find out, instead of all this mental masturbation, could easily build both and decide which one they like better. You don't even need two sets of BCGs and mags; they're the same thing.
Personally, I currently have 6.5 Grendels in 12.5" and 18", and 6mm Grendel variants (243 LBC) in 12.5", 19", and 24", so I've got some pretty direct back to back comparisons between the two. And for those who don't know, the difference between a 6mm Grendel or 243 LBC and the 6mm ARC is .030" at the shoulder and less than 50 fps; they can pretty much be treated identically for mental masturbation forum purposes.
In my experience, the short 6.5 Grendel is excellent for a hunting rifle with some distance capabilities on steel; 700+ yards with a 123 ELD or 120 MB is pretty easy, and the 129gr ABLR is the perfect hunting bullet for an SBR Grendel.
Also in my experience, the 6mm variant is even more excellent at distance, and easier to hit with; higher velocity for less wind drift, better b.c., and easier to spot hits when all else is equal. (And they are pretty equal; both of these SBRs are the same weight and length, same stocks and triggers, same scopes, same bipod, etc; the primary difference between them is the bore size and bullet weight.) No, using light weight 6.5 bullets doesn't accomplish the same thing, at least at normal altitudes where most of us live and shoot; b.c. does matter, after all that's the saving grace of the 6.5 Grendel making it work better than something like a 110gr 300 Blackout at distance. I have not used the short 6mm on big game yet though, and feel the 6.5mm has the advantage there in regards to both weight and bullet selection for hunting.
In the 18"/19" length, I'll take the 6mm every day of the week. Only reason I got the 18" 6.5 Grendel was just to have a valid and informed comparison, but it rarely gets used, because for the one primary advantage of the bigger bore - hunting - I prefer the shorty 12.5". For target use (steel mostly, but paper, clays, water jugs, tannerite, whatever) the mid-sized 6mm is the better choice IMO, and is definitely easier to hit with when the unpredictable winds pick up in these mountain valleys. I shoot a lot of the 105-ish weight range of course, as that's where this round shines, but the 90gr TGK is an excellent choice too. Because of some geometrical differences, that 90 TGK is a better choice than the 90gr ELD, and can be pushed quite a bit faster because it can be seated a lot further out of the case. I shoot that one at 3,000 fps from the 19" rifle with Lever; my 18" Grendel won't match that speed even with the little 85gr HP.
My 24" 6mm is pretty easy to hit with at 1K. Not as easy as the 6.5 Creed bolt gun of course, but those are two very different things; apples and oranges. I don't have a good 6.5 Grendel comparison in the 24", but have never been much interested in a long 24" AR that shoots as slowly as the Grendel.
Both the 6mm and 6.5mm Grendels are still hampered somewhat by mags IMO, compared to 5.56 if one is shooting large quantities rapidly. I have samples of pretty much all the different magazine options, including some only intended for the 6.8 SPC (God rest it's soul), and while they do work and different brands have different advantages, I've never been particularly satisfied with the longer magazines compared to the dead nuts reliability of something like a 30rd 5.56 PMAG. I mostly use the shorter mags though (13-17rd depending on the mag) and several of those are pretty reliable.
A note on powders, since someone earlier in the thread thought these would use different powders: Lever is top dog for velocity in both of these rounds at the mid to heavy range of the bullet weights they're meant for. That means 123gr-130gr for the 6.5, and 90gr-110gr for the 6mm. CFE223 is the next closest, but doesn't behave as well either (Lever is generally milder mannered when approaching max, and usually gives best accuracy and consistency with the hottest loads). The third best powder for both cartridges IMO is 8208, with the advantage of being temp stable, but the disadvantage of giving up some velocity.
And NO, you won't "share components" between a 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Creedmoor, unless you're wanting to use lighter weight bullets in the Creedmoor. Most of us though would be looking at 123-ish gr for the Grendel and 140+ for the Creed for typical applications. Other than that, powder, primers, and brass are all different, as well as dies of course.
On the other hand, you can at least share bullets between a 6 ARC/Grendel and a 6mm Creedmoor, if one wanted to, with the 105-110gr range being pretty common to both. Personally though I went heavier in the 6 GT (112 MB, very long bullet) bolt gun and use 105s in the ARs.
In summary, I think the 12.5" SBR 6.5 Grendel is a great multi-purpose rifle with a lot more capability than most people realize for both hunting and distance shooting. For purely distance shooting, the short 6mm has the advantage IMO, but doesn't cover as many bases as well. In longer barrels though, at least for my applications, the 6mm variants have significant advantages. My shooting ranges a lot in altitude, with DA values between -2,000 and +8,000 ft, and often unpredictable winds shooting from one side of a valley to the other, so the advantages in b.c. and velocity of the 6mm carry more value than they might for other people.
Both of these have significant advantages over the 6.8 SPC too, which in my observation seems to be dying off unless you're within the small pond of the 6.8 forum. I can't see any good reason to choose that round any more, especially if one reloads and is interested in slinging long bullets at long distances. And even if one only shoots at short to medium distance, I think most people have started to realize the 6.5 Grendel covers those bases just fine; certainly the market seems to agree.
So to wrap up, IMO build both - a short (like 12.5") 6.5 Grendel, and a longer 18"-20" 6mm ARC. Get some CPD mags and some ASC stainless mags (for the longer OAL). See which one you like better and go from there; barrel and upper changes are easy and parts are relatively cheap for now.
Hope that helps.
Personally, I currently have 6.5 Grendels in 12.5" and 18", and 6mm Grendel variants (243 LBC) in 12.5", 19", and 24", so I've got some pretty direct back to back comparisons between the two. And for those who don't know, the difference between a 6mm Grendel or 243 LBC and the 6mm ARC is .030" at the shoulder and less than 50 fps; they can pretty much be treated identically for mental masturbation forum purposes.
In my experience, the short 6.5 Grendel is excellent for a hunting rifle with some distance capabilities on steel; 700+ yards with a 123 ELD or 120 MB is pretty easy, and the 129gr ABLR is the perfect hunting bullet for an SBR Grendel.
Also in my experience, the 6mm variant is even more excellent at distance, and easier to hit with; higher velocity for less wind drift, better b.c., and easier to spot hits when all else is equal. (And they are pretty equal; both of these SBRs are the same weight and length, same stocks and triggers, same scopes, same bipod, etc; the primary difference between them is the bore size and bullet weight.) No, using light weight 6.5 bullets doesn't accomplish the same thing, at least at normal altitudes where most of us live and shoot; b.c. does matter, after all that's the saving grace of the 6.5 Grendel making it work better than something like a 110gr 300 Blackout at distance. I have not used the short 6mm on big game yet though, and feel the 6.5mm has the advantage there in regards to both weight and bullet selection for hunting.
In the 18"/19" length, I'll take the 6mm every day of the week. Only reason I got the 18" 6.5 Grendel was just to have a valid and informed comparison, but it rarely gets used, because for the one primary advantage of the bigger bore - hunting - I prefer the shorty 12.5". For target use (steel mostly, but paper, clays, water jugs, tannerite, whatever) the mid-sized 6mm is the better choice IMO, and is definitely easier to hit with when the unpredictable winds pick up in these mountain valleys. I shoot a lot of the 105-ish weight range of course, as that's where this round shines, but the 90gr TGK is an excellent choice too. Because of some geometrical differences, that 90 TGK is a better choice than the 90gr ELD, and can be pushed quite a bit faster because it can be seated a lot further out of the case. I shoot that one at 3,000 fps from the 19" rifle with Lever; my 18" Grendel won't match that speed even with the little 85gr HP.
My 24" 6mm is pretty easy to hit with at 1K. Not as easy as the 6.5 Creed bolt gun of course, but those are two very different things; apples and oranges. I don't have a good 6.5 Grendel comparison in the 24", but have never been much interested in a long 24" AR that shoots as slowly as the Grendel.
Both the 6mm and 6.5mm Grendels are still hampered somewhat by mags IMO, compared to 5.56 if one is shooting large quantities rapidly. I have samples of pretty much all the different magazine options, including some only intended for the 6.8 SPC (God rest it's soul), and while they do work and different brands have different advantages, I've never been particularly satisfied with the longer magazines compared to the dead nuts reliability of something like a 30rd 5.56 PMAG. I mostly use the shorter mags though (13-17rd depending on the mag) and several of those are pretty reliable.
A note on powders, since someone earlier in the thread thought these would use different powders: Lever is top dog for velocity in both of these rounds at the mid to heavy range of the bullet weights they're meant for. That means 123gr-130gr for the 6.5, and 90gr-110gr for the 6mm. CFE223 is the next closest, but doesn't behave as well either (Lever is generally milder mannered when approaching max, and usually gives best accuracy and consistency with the hottest loads). The third best powder for both cartridges IMO is 8208, with the advantage of being temp stable, but the disadvantage of giving up some velocity.
And NO, you won't "share components" between a 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Creedmoor, unless you're wanting to use lighter weight bullets in the Creedmoor. Most of us though would be looking at 123-ish gr for the Grendel and 140+ for the Creed for typical applications. Other than that, powder, primers, and brass are all different, as well as dies of course.
On the other hand, you can at least share bullets between a 6 ARC/Grendel and a 6mm Creedmoor, if one wanted to, with the 105-110gr range being pretty common to both. Personally though I went heavier in the 6 GT (112 MB, very long bullet) bolt gun and use 105s in the ARs.
In summary, I think the 12.5" SBR 6.5 Grendel is a great multi-purpose rifle with a lot more capability than most people realize for both hunting and distance shooting. For purely distance shooting, the short 6mm has the advantage IMO, but doesn't cover as many bases as well. In longer barrels though, at least for my applications, the 6mm variants have significant advantages. My shooting ranges a lot in altitude, with DA values between -2,000 and +8,000 ft, and often unpredictable winds shooting from one side of a valley to the other, so the advantages in b.c. and velocity of the 6mm carry more value than they might for other people.
Both of these have significant advantages over the 6.8 SPC too, which in my observation seems to be dying off unless you're within the small pond of the 6.8 forum. I can't see any good reason to choose that round any more, especially if one reloads and is interested in slinging long bullets at long distances. And even if one only shoots at short to medium distance, I think most people have started to realize the 6.5 Grendel covers those bases just fine; certainly the market seems to agree.
So to wrap up, IMO build both - a short (like 12.5") 6.5 Grendel, and a longer 18"-20" 6mm ARC. Get some CPD mags and some ASC stainless mags (for the longer OAL). See which one you like better and go from there; barrel and upper changes are easy and parts are relatively cheap for now.
Hope that helps.
Also on a related note, a lot of people like to talk about how "weak" Grendel AR15 bolts are, and how they're sure to break lugs if you run hot loads.
What almost everyone misses though is that this is highly dependent on how evenly the bolt lugs are loaded. People seem to assume that the floating bolt in an AR means it'll have even lug contact - that's wrong. The bolt isn't free to move in that direction, and just a very slight angular misalignment (common with most AR uppers) between the barrel extension and receiver bore will result in a few, sometimes just one, bolt lugs taking most of the load. If a guy understands even the most basic stuff about metal fatigue and durability, it's easy to see why letting a few lugs take most of the bolt thrust leads to shorter life than if all 7 do it equally.
If we can eliminate that situation, the bolt can last a lot longer, handling hotter loads (within the limits of the brass, which isn't as strong as most other modern cartridges). Truing the receiver face or using thermo-fit uppers are the best methods I know to even out bolt lug contact, which I've proven out with contact marker in new builds and lug examination in well used rifles. Lapping lugs could be a possibility in a custom barrel, but it'll change headspace if you take it very far, and you'll have a bolt suitable for only that one barrel. While truing a receiver face may not show any difference on target, you can expect to see a difference in bolt lug contact.
The other "weak" part of the bolt is the extractor, but extractor loading is directly related to gas tuning. If the rifle is overgassed and trying to extract earlier, the extractor gets loaded much higher than a properly tuned rifle. (Suppressors can be hard on extractors for this same reason.)
Part of the reason nobody really talks about this much is the 5.56 has enough margin that it's not really an issue with that cartridge. And if we're honest, it's a pretty small percentage of us interested in anything other than 5.56 in an AR.
With a rifle set up by someone who knows how to optimize these things, IME one can push the Grendel-based cases a bit harder without the constant fear of bolt failure that some people want to push. I'm not claiming that you should expect 5.56 levels of bolt life, but certainly enough to shoot for years with a low risk of failure. YMMV, but this has proven true in my rifles and my experimentation.
What almost everyone misses though is that this is highly dependent on how evenly the bolt lugs are loaded. People seem to assume that the floating bolt in an AR means it'll have even lug contact - that's wrong. The bolt isn't free to move in that direction, and just a very slight angular misalignment (common with most AR uppers) between the barrel extension and receiver bore will result in a few, sometimes just one, bolt lugs taking most of the load. If a guy understands even the most basic stuff about metal fatigue and durability, it's easy to see why letting a few lugs take most of the bolt thrust leads to shorter life than if all 7 do it equally.
If we can eliminate that situation, the bolt can last a lot longer, handling hotter loads (within the limits of the brass, which isn't as strong as most other modern cartridges). Truing the receiver face or using thermo-fit uppers are the best methods I know to even out bolt lug contact, which I've proven out with contact marker in new builds and lug examination in well used rifles. Lapping lugs could be a possibility in a custom barrel, but it'll change headspace if you take it very far, and you'll have a bolt suitable for only that one barrel. While truing a receiver face may not show any difference on target, you can expect to see a difference in bolt lug contact.
The other "weak" part of the bolt is the extractor, but extractor loading is directly related to gas tuning. If the rifle is overgassed and trying to extract earlier, the extractor gets loaded much higher than a properly tuned rifle. (Suppressors can be hard on extractors for this same reason.)
Part of the reason nobody really talks about this much is the 5.56 has enough margin that it's not really an issue with that cartridge. And if we're honest, it's a pretty small percentage of us interested in anything other than 5.56 in an AR.
With a rifle set up by someone who knows how to optimize these things, IME one can push the Grendel-based cases a bit harder without the constant fear of bolt failure that some people want to push. I'm not claiming that you should expect 5.56 levels of bolt life, but certainly enough to shoot for years with a low risk of failure. YMMV, but this has proven true in my rifles and my experimentation.
I am just finishing a 6.5 Grendel 18 inch. I am pretty excited to get out and shoot it. I never have a chance to shoot 1000 yards so I think I should be happy out to 600. I don’t hunt and if i did I am not sure how I would feel shooting something past 300 yards. Comparing the 6.8 to the 6.5 seems to have been beaten to death all over the internet. If I was planning on hunting Hogs or deer at medium range I would use my 6.8. But for shooting paper and steel out to 500 yards or so I’ll take the flatter trajectory of the 6.5. I think the 6arc has them both beat but we already have one in the family so I went Grendel.
I plan to build a shorty after I finish my 18inch. I have been looking into a xm177 clone in 6,5 Grendel
I agree with just building one and trying it. bear creek and cdc have bargains in 6.5. Sub 250 without bcg if you like it upgrade parts. Or just leave it as is. That’s what I am doing building a budget “FrankenGrendel” from left over parts and a budget upper. If it shoots well I may build another long barrel but def gonna build a 12.5.
Agreed with most of that, except I recommend to stay away from Bear Creek and other similar bottom-barrel garbage. For not much more, you can build your own upper with a BA barrel, which while still lower end, are generally at least servicable and a big step up from the junk Bear Creek sells. My 18" is a BA premium series stainless barrel I picked up on sale for about $150; still a cheap barrel but it shoots OK for what it is. YMMV as always with cheaper parts...
Great posts Yondering. Some bullets that have been overlooked in Grendel are:
123gr Fort Scott TUI Advertised BC is .571 G1. Not sure how that one slipped by me, so I bought some of the factory ammo at a LGS and they have very sharp tipped points.
I haven’t shot them yet, but just looking at the boat tail, the secant ogive, and the tipped point, they have a better form factor than the 123gr Scenar or SMK, which are .527/.522 G1 for comparison. Fort Scott got significantly better velocities with CFE223 than the other powders they have listed for their load data.
105gr Sierra Blitzking. I would say for those who are predator hunting, that will do just about everything any of the 6mm yote bullets will do in practical terms, while doubling as a great flat-shooting target bullet. The 6mms will have some wind advantages at distance for target work, but within 200-500yds, this 105gr Blitzking will be almost indistinguishable for hit probability compared to the 103gr ELD-X. At 300yds, you’re looking at 0.7 mils wind for 10mph with the 105gr 6.5, and 0.6 mils for the 103gr ELD-X 6mm, or 1” difference in wind drift.
The 124 different factory loads available for 6.5 Grendel is probably the biggest consideration for the layman. I’ve gone completely off the deep end into shorter and shorter barrels. My 8.5” Criterion just showed up last week from Precision Firearms. I’ll be focused on the PDW Grendel concept at least for the next 3 years.
Looking at 2620-2680fps with the 80gr Hammer Tipped bullets from an 8.5” Grendel. I’ll do some reduced weight projectile testing like was done with the 120gr GMX cut down to 94gr and 75gr. We’re basically looking at 20” .223 Rem velocities from an 8.5” barrel, with a lot less chamber pressure. My 5.56 give-a-rip meter is edging closer and closer to just being unplugged.
123gr Fort Scott TUI Advertised BC is .571 G1. Not sure how that one slipped by me, so I bought some of the factory ammo at a LGS and they have very sharp tipped points.
I haven’t shot them yet, but just looking at the boat tail, the secant ogive, and the tipped point, they have a better form factor than the 123gr Scenar or SMK, which are .527/.522 G1 for comparison. Fort Scott got significantly better velocities with CFE223 than the other powders they have listed for their load data.
105gr Sierra Blitzking. I would say for those who are predator hunting, that will do just about everything any of the 6mm yote bullets will do in practical terms, while doubling as a great flat-shooting target bullet. The 6mms will have some wind advantages at distance for target work, but within 200-500yds, this 105gr Blitzking will be almost indistinguishable for hit probability compared to the 103gr ELD-X. At 300yds, you’re looking at 0.7 mils wind for 10mph with the 105gr 6.5, and 0.6 mils for the 103gr ELD-X 6mm, or 1” difference in wind drift.
The 124 different factory loads available for 6.5 Grendel is probably the biggest consideration for the layman. I’ve gone completely off the deep end into shorter and shorter barrels. My 8.5” Criterion just showed up last week from Precision Firearms. I’ll be focused on the PDW Grendel concept at least for the next 3 years.
Looking at 2620-2680fps with the 80gr Hammer Tipped bullets from an 8.5” Grendel. I’ll do some reduced weight projectile testing like was done with the 120gr GMX cut down to 94gr and 75gr. We’re basically looking at 20” .223 Rem velocities from an 8.5” barrel, with a lot less chamber pressure. My 5.56 give-a-rip meter is edging closer and closer to just being unplugged.
Hornady 100gr ELD-VT just started showing up to online retailers.
SGAmmo 6.5 Grendel Hornady 100gr ELD-VT
SGAmmo 6.5 Grendel Hornady 100gr ELD-VT
Picked up a 6.5 grendel 18" upper from PSA and put it on top of a PSA lower that I assembled last year. Killed my first deer (doe) last week. With everything that I had read and understood....it was the right choice. Would I go with 6 ARC...maybe. But happy with my choice and with my current hunting for whitetails in VA.....it'll work. Was a 115 grain Barnes ammo. Also wanna say thanks for all the continuing sharing of knowledge and experience on this board. Appreciate it!
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I too, glossed over the middle of the thread, but I dropped in to answer the thread title:
I would if I wanted an accurized AK platform in the current year. the conversion parts and magazines to make a short barrel AK with impressive reach are more available than they've ever been, and 6Arc doesn't take to the AK gas system as easily/well.
I know most on here are AR centric, but the AK fetishists among us deserve something nice once in a while
I would if I wanted an accurized AK platform in the current year. the conversion parts and magazines to make a short barrel AK with impressive reach are more available than they've ever been, and 6Arc doesn't take to the AK gas system as easily/well.
I know most on here are AR centric, but the AK fetishists among us deserve something nice once in a while
I’ve been thinking that as well when you look at rising 7.62x39 prices and ridiculous 5.45x39 prices.
There are AK Grendel mags too, so you can built an AK around it from scratch and have a shorty that blows away the performance of every other AK cartridge without breaking a sweat. A 10.5” Grendel smokes 16.3” and 20” 7.62x39 rifles shooting the exact same bullet weight.
One of those newer AKs with the machined pivoting top rail/receiver cover and all the features of your choice would be sick, suppressed of course. You could Zenith-drag it, or do a 1990s-2000s build, a hybrid -100 series, whatever.
I just picked up some boxes of the new Hornady 100gr ELD-VT from Scheel’s. They had it for $29.99/box.
The ogive and tip look just like a 123gr ELD-M to my eyes. Case head markings are finer than 123gr ELD-M.
It’s going to be a flat-shooting option.
Hopefully will get some trigger time with it this week.
The ogive and tip look just like a 123gr ELD-M to my eyes. Case head markings are finer than 123gr ELD-M.
It’s going to be a flat-shooting option.
Hopefully will get some trigger time with it this week.
My favorite is old-school wood, but with a pic rail section that slides into the side mount. They retain zero very well, so built right you can have it as a display piece when not shooting and most will be none the wiser that it isn't a 5.45 Krink
Took my boy out shooting down to my favorite range complex in the world last week just for some fun shooting, which I haven’t done in a while. My range work always seems to be work or competition over the past 30 years.
Had him shooting the 12” at 300 and 400yds with ease using 123gr ELD-M.
After spending a few hours at the Cowboy Town with .22LR Ruger Mk.IV, 10/22 doing TGT-to-TGT drills, and the Maxim9, we went to the 1000yd range to shoot the new 100gr ELD-VT from my 17.6” Lilja.
I haven’t chrono’d the load, so I used Shooter’s Notes internal ballistics engine calculator to give me an idea of what the mv would be, and used that for my ballistics program drop/drift data.
1st-round connect at 700yds
1st round connect at 800yds
Skipped 900 and went to 1000yd gong.
I never missed the gong, and my boy who has never shot to 1000yds hit 3/4. We went through most of 2 boxes of this ammo. It was unusually loud for 100gr, maybe because the wind was blowing slightly towards us.
My turret was a 10.8 mils elevation for 1000yds. Temps were in the 20s, 6300ft elevation. Wind at 5-7mph half value.
I think this 100gr ELD-VT will do well for a light-recoiling varmint and target bullet.
Had him shooting the 12” at 300 and 400yds with ease using 123gr ELD-M.
After spending a few hours at the Cowboy Town with .22LR Ruger Mk.IV, 10/22 doing TGT-to-TGT drills, and the Maxim9, we went to the 1000yd range to shoot the new 100gr ELD-VT from my 17.6” Lilja.
I haven’t chrono’d the load, so I used Shooter’s Notes internal ballistics engine calculator to give me an idea of what the mv would be, and used that for my ballistics program drop/drift data.
1st-round connect at 700yds
1st round connect at 800yds
Skipped 900 and went to 1000yd gong.
I never missed the gong, and my boy who has never shot to 1000yds hit 3/4. We went through most of 2 boxes of this ammo. It was unusually loud for 100gr, maybe because the wind was blowing slightly towards us.
My turret was a 10.8 mils elevation for 1000yds. Temps were in the 20s, 6300ft elevation. Wind at 5-7mph half value.
I think this 100gr ELD-VT will do well for a light-recoiling varmint and target bullet.
Also, no malfs with any of the mags or ammo used in either gun, as usual.
In the 12”, we were shooting 123gr ELD-M from older CProducts straight 17rd mags (that should have never been born).
From the 17.6”, we were shooting the 100gr ELD-VT from Amend2A polymer mags.
Everything cycled fine and went to LRHO.
Both have Bootleg Adjustable Gas carriers.
12” is suppressed always with TBAC Ultra 5 to eliminate muzzle blast, which is great for kids.
In the 12”, we were shooting 123gr ELD-M from older CProducts straight 17rd mags (that should have never been born).
From the 17.6”, we were shooting the 100gr ELD-VT from Amend2A polymer mags.
Everything cycled fine and went to LRHO.
Both have Bootleg Adjustable Gas carriers.
12” is suppressed always with TBAC Ultra 5 to eliminate muzzle blast, which is great for kids.
Congrats on the kill.
Where was the shot placement?
And where did you recover the bullet from?
Thanks Bakwa...appreciate it! Doe was roughly broadside...maybe quartering towards me...aim point was shoulder...don't remember whether it was on the crease or not. Recovered the bullet on the same side of the hide as the entry wound. No pass through. I think the deer died due to lung filling up with blood because the joint was destroyed along with the "shock" was transferred to that shoulder which continued on....might have nicked the lungs....but I don't know. I didn't think to grab more pics of that...something I'll try to remember for next time. And it was only about 50 yards....so wasn't far at all. Thanks for the questions. Hope I answered em.
Just picked up 60 rounds from Schell’s last week , I have a 20” 1-8 BHW barrel with 150 rounds down it , and a 24” 1-8 BHW barrel never fired. I took it to an indoor range just to chrono them. 20” barrel shot about 2,625 and the 24” about 2725. The SD’s were extremely low , shot about 4 round out of each rifle, The rounds on out of each barrels were all within a few fps.Hornady 100gr ELD-VT just started showing up to online retailers.
SGAmmo 6.5 Grendel Hornady 100gr ELD-VT
Since the 20” has been broken in I’m not expecting any increase here forward. On the other hand the 24” at 150 rounds I would guess maybe 30 to 50 more fps. So say max at 2,775. fps out of the 24” . Not crazy velocities but can’t beat the SD.
Any differences in buffers, springs, etc., when making the switch? Things to be aware of regarding gas port size?
@LRRPF52 is a huge fan of short barrels. FWIW, sir, your approach of one caliber has great appeal, even though I'll always have a few others for reasons. Alexander Arms needs to pay you. You've probably steered more people to the grendel than anyone with your very informative posts.
I'm leaning towards a 16 or 14.5 PW. Intermediate gas or mid gas? same same?
Basically I'm set up for 5.56 and wanting to see what all besides barrel, bolt, and mags needs to be considered.
Thanks in Advance
@LRRPF52 is a huge fan of short barrels. FWIW, sir, your approach of one caliber has great appeal, even though I'll always have a few others for reasons. Alexander Arms needs to pay you. You've probably steered more people to the grendel than anyone with your very informative posts.
I'm leaning towards a 16 or 14.5 PW. Intermediate gas or mid gas? same same?
Basically I'm set up for 5.56 and wanting to see what all besides barrel, bolt, and mags needs to be considered.
Thanks in Advance
Biggest things are as you suggest, barrel, bolt and mags. Something to consider are an adjustable gas block, and possibly a heavier . The rifle generally will function with standard gas blocks and buffers, but with all the dynamic involved with gas systems based on different length gas versus barrel length and different powders and bullet weights(85 thru 135 ) I just find an adjustable on a Grendel is great because it allows you to tune it based on cartridge and suppressed versus non suppressed.
I have never put a H3 buffer on a Grendel but if you are loading heavy for caliber you may want to delay the gas system, which can be done by adjusting gas flow and delaying the bolt carrier movement. A heavier buffer will accomplish this. I does reduce cycling times, and felt recoil as well, however it’s a semi automatic so who cares.
An example of this is on my AR10 308 win I was hand loading 225 gr HPBT . I was getting about 2,450 from a 20” 1-11 twist barrel with RL 17. Problem is as I got near the warm side of things, The recoil was getting substantially more and my brass was getting beat. It was a result that the bullets were exiting the barrel with a longer dwell time and the gas system was acting to quickly starting to move the bolt back before pressure in the barrel had relieved it self enough. So I put on adjustable gas block with an extra heavy 8.6 oz buffer. Great improvement in felt recoil and was saving my brass. Crazy.
Any hoot I would get an adjustable gas block which can help manage things a lot. You may be able to leave it full open no issues, but it can come in handy.
I have never put a H3 buffer on a Grendel but if you are loading heavy for caliber you may want to delay the gas system, which can be done by adjusting gas flow and delaying the bolt carrier movement. A heavier buffer will accomplish this. I does reduce cycling times, and felt recoil as well, however it’s a semi automatic so who cares.
An example of this is on my AR10 308 win I was hand loading 225 gr HPBT . I was getting about 2,450 from a 20” 1-11 twist barrel with RL 17. Problem is as I got near the warm side of things, The recoil was getting substantially more and my brass was getting beat. It was a result that the bullets were exiting the barrel with a longer dwell time and the gas system was acting to quickly starting to move the bolt back before pressure in the barrel had relieved it self enough. So I put on adjustable gas block with an extra heavy 8.6 oz buffer. Great improvement in felt recoil and was saving my brass. Crazy.
Any hoot I would get an adjustable gas block which can help manage things a lot. You may be able to leave it full open no issues, but it can come in handy.
I have tons of 5.56 blasters (dating back to 1987 when I started with an AR-15A2 Sporter II), 2 .308 AR-10s, and a .260 Rem LR-260 custom build from GAP as well. I’ve also owned 3 other .308s that I sold. Grendel kind of ruined AR-10s for me, mainly because of the bulk/weight penalties and not being able to spot your own hits easily, and then brass life with the .260 Rem. I lose primer pockets after 3 firings in the .260 Rem, unless I dial down the charge weight and end up with a really heavy Grendel basically.
Gas ports in 6.5 Grendel basically follow the same as 5.56 ports for locations and diameters. Bore volume makes up for the increased propellant weight, so it’s an easy transition from 5.56 over to Grendel with no changes needed to the lower receiver group.
I use 2.9oz carbine buffers with extra power springs on the short guns.
Carbine buffers work fine on all the other lengths as well, but I’ve also used H, H2, and Rifle depending on how it was set up. I’ve learned to focus more on the spring weight than buffer weight over the past few years, though I never had problems with any of the configurations I’ve tried. I think the JP SCS is the only one that might have needed some tuning with spring weights, but it has been a while since I messed with it.
I’ve owned several 16” MLGS barrels, which are smooth shooters with a .076” gas port.
14.5” ILGS P&W would be fun too, especially suppressed.
I currently have a 14.5” Rexus MLGS barrel that I haven’t installed yet, since I’ve been on a 12”, then 10.5”, and now 8.5” path after years with the 16”, 18”, 20”, and 22” Grendels. I shot my 17.6” regularly for years until I did the 12” guns, and have leaned on the 12” primarily since 2017. I was thinking about dropping the 14.5” into my LaRue Stealth chassis so I could have a somewhat shorter overall carbine when it’s suppressed.
14.5” MLGS or ILGS will perform effectively like a 16” or 18”, as there isn’t a significant difference in mv and downrange effects.
18” will spit a 123gr factory load at 2450-2500fps depending on the type of rifling.
16” will do 2430-2480fps average.
14.5” will do 2350-2430fps.
I might lean towards 14.5” MLGS if you plan to shoot lighter weight bullets as well. A closer gas port location to the chamber helps with reliability with the 90gr and lower weight bullets. 90gr TNT was notorious for putting the gas system on the edge even in some MLGS 18” and RLGS 20” or longer. AA used to make the 90gr TNT factor load and discontinued it for that reason if I recall.
Federal makes it in 50rd boxes with a very performance-driven powder behind it, and it runs the CLGS 12” guns like a raped ape just fine, especially with the tiny buffer PDW RETs and springs.
For gas system, I am really happy with the Bootleg carriers and I have them in 3 of the Grendels now. It’s part of my formula for setting up suppressed Grendels, or 18” MLGS. I feel the 18” MLGS is a bit much for plug dwell time, so choking it helps slow down the cyclic rate.
A 14.5” MLGS P&W Grendel would make a nice do-all carbine though where there is no consideration for the type of rear-end furniture you might want to install. Would even be cool with a PDW set-up on the back end, or a typical SOCOM DM telescoping stock choice that fits you well. I like the LaRue RAT stock a lot. I’m also looking at the new Magpul MOE PR stock.
So I pulled the bullet on one of the Hornady 100 gr ELD VT Match rounds today. First the bullets current COAL = 2.246”
The bullet I pulled weighed 99.5 gr boat tail was .1515” base to ogive.5135” bearing surface .362 tip was .728”.
For its weight the bullet is long 1.2415”. Here is a pic next to a 107 gr SMK. The nose is long , where it is loaded at 2.246 the ogive is basically right at the end of the case.
I measured 25.8 gr of ball powder. Not sure what it is . But the SD’s are crazy low.
I put the bullet on a Hornady lands measurement tool. On my 20” BHW 1-8 had a COAL of 2.406 to the lands. My 24” BHW 24” 1-8 had a COAL of 2.375” my ACS magazine can load 2.30 my widowed PRI magazines can load 2.385” in the 24” barrel , I had to file down the barrel extension so the oversized cartridges would not get hung up.
Just for reference here is a pic of it next to a 130 gr RFF and a 140 gr RDF
The bullet I pulled weighed 99.5 gr boat tail was .1515” base to ogive.5135” bearing surface .362 tip was .728”.
For its weight the bullet is long 1.2415”. Here is a pic next to a 107 gr SMK. The nose is long , where it is loaded at 2.246 the ogive is basically right at the end of the case.
I measured 25.8 gr of ball powder. Not sure what it is . But the SD’s are crazy low.
I put the bullet on a Hornady lands measurement tool. On my 20” BHW 1-8 had a COAL of 2.406 to the lands. My 24” BHW 24” 1-8 had a COAL of 2.375” my ACS magazine can load 2.30 my widowed PRI magazines can load 2.385” in the 24” barrel , I had to file down the barrel extension so the oversized cartridges would not get hung up.
Just for reference here is a pic of it next to a 130 gr RFF and a 140 gr RDF
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Awesome report.
When we shot the 100gr ELD-VT to 1000yds last week from my Lilja 17.6” Grendel, it looked like the groups were very tight in the vertical department forming a sort of waterline pattern, but we couldn’t go down to the targets due to all the snow that had recently melted. Everything was muddy on the ranges, but dry and clean on the shooting stations (cement with overhead cover).
When we shot the 100gr ELD-VT to 1000yds last week from my Lilja 17.6” Grendel, it looked like the groups were very tight in the vertical department forming a sort of waterline pattern, but we couldn’t go down to the targets due to all the snow that had recently melted. Everything was muddy on the ranges, but dry and clean on the shooting stations (cement with overhead cover).
I have been thinking about it a little more. In the 24" barrel, the lands a 2.375. So if .020 off the lands 2.355 COAL with the windowed PRI mag which can be done, no problem in the 20", as the lands are .030 more. Based on that COAL, I recon I should be able to fit in another 1.5 grains of powder in the boiler room .
So with the Hornady Match, load of 2,725 fps, after I barrel break I should be in the 2,760 or so area.. With 1.5 grains more capacity than the 2.26 load length , I m thinking 2,860 to 2,880 is a true attainable velocity in this 24" with PRI mags without getting crazy. For the 20" with this load, say I would guess around 2,740.
Using 2,875 as then hand load velocity, here is what I get drop and drift at 1,000 yds at sea level and 100 yd zero, 10 mph cross wind
8.28 mils drop 2.06 mills drift
For the 20" using 2,740
9.34 mils drop. 2.23 mils drift
Comapred to a 88 gr ELD M form a 24" barrreled 22 ARC at 2,860 , 100 yd zero 10 mph crosswind wind
8.03 mils drop. 1.94 mills drift. It is pretty dam respectable.
The 130 RDF is chugging along at roughly 2,590 fps. And the same variables 9.34 mils drop 1.98 mills drift.
So 1.15 more mils drop with the 130 rdf. Drift is a little tighter, but .25 mills less wind drift.
For a Grendel, the 100 gr ELD VT makes the rifle shine , as a varmit hunting and precsion shooting platform. A lot flatter shooting with very respectabul wind drift for its weight. The bullet will be devastating on coyotes and varmint size game. Of all the Grendel based cartridges, this brings a lot of performance to the Grendel. Obviously this is not a pig round.
I'm still not going to get a 6 ARC or a 22 ARC, for that matter either. The 6.5 Grendel platform just offers so much in platform capabilities, varmit hunting, deer hunting, hog hunting etc ettc. You just load up a bullet that matches your performance envelope requirements and away you go.
It will never be a PRS comp rifle, you have tons of better options. The 22 ARC shooting 90 gr ATips is pretty sweet, filling that role. But everything else except hunting varmints at ranges past 400 yds is in the Grendel's wheel house. The small advantages the 6 ARC and 22 ARC have at long ranges don't really matter. I have other bolt action rifles for that.
So when I’ll be getting a couple hundred 100 gr ElD VT bullets and start developing loads along these above referenced lines.
So with the Hornady Match, load of 2,725 fps, after I barrel break I should be in the 2,760 or so area.. With 1.5 grains more capacity than the 2.26 load length , I m thinking 2,860 to 2,880 is a true attainable velocity in this 24" with PRI mags without getting crazy. For the 20" with this load, say I would guess around 2,740.
Using 2,875 as then hand load velocity, here is what I get drop and drift at 1,000 yds at sea level and 100 yd zero, 10 mph cross wind
8.28 mils drop 2.06 mills drift
For the 20" using 2,740
9.34 mils drop. 2.23 mils drift
Comapred to a 88 gr ELD M form a 24" barrreled 22 ARC at 2,860 , 100 yd zero 10 mph crosswind wind
8.03 mils drop. 1.94 mills drift. It is pretty dam respectable.
The 130 RDF is chugging along at roughly 2,590 fps. And the same variables 9.34 mils drop 1.98 mills drift.
So 1.15 more mils drop with the 130 rdf. Drift is a little tighter, but .25 mills less wind drift.
For a Grendel, the 100 gr ELD VT makes the rifle shine , as a varmit hunting and precsion shooting platform. A lot flatter shooting with very respectabul wind drift for its weight. The bullet will be devastating on coyotes and varmint size game. Of all the Grendel based cartridges, this brings a lot of performance to the Grendel. Obviously this is not a pig round.
I'm still not going to get a 6 ARC or a 22 ARC, for that matter either. The 6.5 Grendel platform just offers so much in platform capabilities, varmit hunting, deer hunting, hog hunting etc ettc. You just load up a bullet that matches your performance envelope requirements and away you go.
It will never be a PRS comp rifle, you have tons of better options. The 22 ARC shooting 90 gr ATips is pretty sweet, filling that role. But everything else except hunting varmints at ranges past 400 yds is in the Grendel's wheel house. The small advantages the 6 ARC and 22 ARC have at long ranges don't really matter. I have other bolt action rifles for that.
So when I’ll be getting a couple hundred 100 gr ElD VT bullets and start developing loads along these above referenced lines.
The one thing that is baffling to me is precision from this round. Some people are reporting really tight groups. Just amazes me because at the 2.245 COAL factory load the ogive is basically right at the case mouth. So you are way back from the lands . My rifles are both 264 LBC. So I’ll get it to a proper range soon and get some accuracy feedback. But It’s seems like a winner, and hand loads should just take it up to the next level
My Lilja 17.6” and my Criterion barrels from PF have SAAMI Grendel chambers with the compound throat, so that should help with long secant ogive alignment in the chamber.
I was at 10.8 mils drop at 1000yds with the 17.6” in about 20˚ temps. Elevation was 6300ft but I didn’t look at my Kestrel for some reason. Main thing was just getting my boy some trigger time for fun.
Rifle and Intermediate, respectively, every day and twice on sunday for me. If you take the little extra time it may require to get such a system running well it'll be hard to go back to mid gas.
I would absolutely use it as a pig round. Small sample size of two last weekend and out of a 6.5 Creedmoor, but very impressed with the bullet performance. About a 3in exit wound at 200m.
Way more energy out of the 6.5G than the 77gr mk262 we typically use for pigs.
90gr TNT has turned out to be one of the go-to pig-hunting loads in 6.5 Grendel, with very good bang-flop performance over many years now. I don’t see why the 100gr ELD-VT would not perform similarly.
Speaking of which, I was looking over some of my 90gr TNT ammo from 2 different sources, some old Alexander Arms boxed ammo and some Federal 90gr TNT ammo. If you look closely on the ogives, you can see little skives engraved into the jacket, which are designed to cause rapid expansion of the projectile.
Speaking of which, I was looking over some of my 90gr TNT ammo from 2 different sources, some old Alexander Arms boxed ammo and some Federal 90gr TNT ammo. If you look closely on the ogives, you can see little skives engraved into the jacket, which are designed to cause rapid expansion of the projectile.
To answer the OP’s question, yes.
There’s obviously more and more getting into the Grendel as well. 2 friends have asked me to help them each get a rifle together before deer season after shooting mine.
There’s obviously more and more getting into the Grendel as well. 2 friends have asked me to help them each get a rifle together before deer season after shooting mine.
Where I’ve been chasing the rabbit is in a shorter, more compact AR-15 while increasing performance. Basically a Micro-Recce concept.
The 12” Grendel has been doing that really well for me over the past 7 years.
Think Mk.18 overall profile with better energy on-target than a 24” barrel .223 Rem bolt gun, so a CQB blaster than easily fills as a DM/Sniper System.
The hardest thing is being on the edge of optics developments with shorter and shorter scopes delivering pretty impressive performance, although most are LPVOs with an emphasis on great 1x clarity and exit pupil, vs the types of optics that were favored on SPRs with the smaller Leupolds and NightForce tubes.
The next hardest thing is chasing the "Own The Night" configurations, as some people have woken up to the reality of “Rent the Night” and going passive vs active IR signature.
This past week, I took the SOPMOD Block II with 1-4x LPVO out along with 3 Grendels (12” 17.6”, 18”), since I hadn’t shot that 5.56 blaster in a while. I’m thinking the Gen 3 Razor would go well on it for my terrain/environment.
The idea for me is that I want something maneuverable within tight spaces that also slings lead with really high hit probability at distance, and can also be used to hunt effectively with. The short guns remain about as stable when you bipod and suppress them, though the Mk.12s are kind of a gold standard in weight and stability when shooting from the prone and tripod, mainly due to the RLGS 18” being such a smooth shooter with that suppressor.
The 12” Grendel has been doing that really well for me over the past 7 years.
Think Mk.18 overall profile with better energy on-target than a 24” barrel .223 Rem bolt gun, so a CQB blaster than easily fills as a DM/Sniper System.
The hardest thing is being on the edge of optics developments with shorter and shorter scopes delivering pretty impressive performance, although most are LPVOs with an emphasis on great 1x clarity and exit pupil, vs the types of optics that were favored on SPRs with the smaller Leupolds and NightForce tubes.
The next hardest thing is chasing the "Own The Night" configurations, as some people have woken up to the reality of “Rent the Night” and going passive vs active IR signature.
This past week, I took the SOPMOD Block II with 1-4x LPVO out along with 3 Grendels (12” 17.6”, 18”), since I hadn’t shot that 5.56 blaster in a while. I’m thinking the Gen 3 Razor would go well on it for my terrain/environment.
The idea for me is that I want something maneuverable within tight spaces that also slings lead with really high hit probability at distance, and can also be used to hunt effectively with. The short guns remain about as stable when you bipod and suppress them, though the Mk.12s are kind of a gold standard in weight and stability when shooting from the prone and tripod, mainly due to the RLGS 18” being such a smooth shooter with that suppressor.
